Differences In Forensics And Trial Between WHF And Murder Of Jill Dando

[Myster]

No, it isn't!   We've been over this numerous times and I've no intention of going through it all yet again.  MF's and EP's explanation is the most logical and consistent with the casing location.  Off to mow the lawn, BFN.

[Holly Goodhead]

No, it isn't!   We've been over this numerous times and I've no intention of going through it all yet again.  MF's and EP's explanation is the most logical and consistent with the casing location.  Off to mow the lawn, BFN.

Afaik at trial MF/EP didn't provide any detailed explanation re the location of casings let alone the other physical evidence?  Nor it seems did JB's defence challenge the lack of explanation and/or propose any explanation?

I need to sort the lawn out too.  It's in a dreadful state with dandelions popping up    Without my contacts in/glasses I imagine daffodils  I've been asking my Pete all week to get the mower out!  I'm investigating the possibility of artificial lawn in some areas but unsure whether this is environmentally friendly? 

[Holly Goodhead]

Anyway all is not lost.  We can see how it is possible for a reconstruction to be carried out post trial as evidenced by the reconstruction at Bleak Farm in the case of Norfolk farmer Tony Martin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BemcOAg53eM

@ 46:40

And in the WHF/JB case there's far more physical evidence and data to draw on with 25/26 gunshots fired and only 3 fired at Bleak Farm/Tony Martin case.

[Holly Goodhead]

Not only were jurors not taken to WHF but afaik the only experts to visit pre-trial were Dr Vanezis, pathologist, and Anthony Arlidge QC for the prosecution. 

[Holly Goodhead]

High profile cases involving shooting incidents:

Case                                           Jury taken to soc                  Reconstruction

WHF/Jeremy Bamber                              No                                                 No

Bleak Farm/Tony Martin                          Yes                                                 Yes

Gowan Ave/Barry George                        Yes                                                ?

Rettendon murders/Steele & Whomes       ?                                                   * see link below

The system needs a consistent approach.  I will be writing to Sajid Javid 

* http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6020.msg510061#msg510061

[Caroline]

Jurors are only able to make decisions/reach verdicts based on what is adjudicated on at trial. 

Ed Lawson QC for the defence asked MF if anyone was shot upstairs outside NB and June's bedroom to which he replied no.  See attached trial testimony.

The CoA 2002 doc states:

60. Found in or just outside the bedroom were thirteen cartridge cases. Seven would account for the shots into June Bamber, two for the wounds suffered by Sheila Caffell, leaving four cartridge cases that had been fired at Nevill Bamber. Three further cartridge cases were found in the kitchen, with a further case on the stairs leading up from the kitchen. If one accepts that the four shots to the head which would have immobilised and killed Nevill Bamber were fired in the kitchen where his body was recovered,it would follow that he had received the less serious injuries upstairs in the bedroom and was then able to make his way downstairs where he was subsequently killed.

41. Nevill Bamber, who was wearing his pyjamas had been shot eight times. There were two wounds to the right side and two to the top of the head. If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation. There was a wound to the left side of the lip and another to the left part of the lower jaw. This injury caused severe fracturing of the jaw, of the teeth in that area and damaged soft tissue in the neck and the larynx. These features of this particular injury and the resultant flow of blood into the mouth meant, in the pathologist's opinion, that Nevill Bamber would not have been able to engage in purposeful talk. There were also gunshot wounds to the left shoulder and a grazing wound above the left elbow.

147. The precise sequence of the killings was unclear. June Bamber was shot whilst still lying in bed but had managed to get up and walk a few steps before she collapsed and died by the main bedroom door. Nevill Bamber was also shot in the bedroom but was able to get downstairs into the kitchen where there was a violent struggle before he was overwhelmed and then shot a number of times in the head. The children had been shot in their beds as they slept.

vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:

a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;

b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;

There can be no doubt jurors were led to believe the perp crept into the main bedroom under stealth and opened fire on a sleeping June and NB where NB sustained his not immediately fatal gsw's rendering him incapable of purposeful speech thereafter with these wounds producing heavy blood loss.  This is wrong based on a careful analysis of the physical evidence at soc.

They can also think outside of the box like you and I. Just because NB was shot outside of the bedroom does not mean there eas a call from Jeremy. You seem to be saying that there is no alternative but there are many and I don't believe that a jury would have turned by simply being told that NB was outside of the bedroom when shot.

[Nicholas]

Apparently the Bamber case will feature in a new book Bullet Proof?! http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/

http://www.farnhamherald.com/article.cfm?id=116154&headline=Former%20Marine%27s%20%27graffiti%20gunfire%27%20fears&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2016

[Myster]

Apparently the Bamber case will feature in a new book Bullet Proof?! http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/

http://www.farnhamherald.com/article.cfm?id=116154&headline=Former%20Marine%27s%20%27graffiti%20gunfire%27%20fears&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2016

Thank you for that, Nick.   

Holly isn't going to be too happy, especially with the bit about SC's long fingernails!   I can see she'll soon be firing off numerous angry emails to Andy Rigsby.

The part I don't agree with is his suggestion that there might have been two extra magazines.  Wouldn't EP have checked with Radcliffe's or other gunsmiths to see if they'd sold spare ones to Jeremy Bamber?  I think he planned on killing all the family with just one full magazine of ten rounds, i.e. two bullets to the head of each sleeping individual, but everything went banana-shaped because his parents were awake and aware, hence the inaccuracy of the shots.

[APRIL]

Thank you for that, Nick.   

Holly isn't going to be too happy, especially with the bit about SC's long fingernails!   I can see she'll soon be firing off numerous angry emails to Andy Rigsby.

The part I don't agree with is his suggestion that there might have been two extra magazines.  Wouldn't EP have checked with Radcliffe's or other gunsmiths to see if they'd sold spare ones to Jeremy Bamber?  I think he planned on killing all the family with just one full magazine of ten rounds, i.e. two bullets to the head of each sleeping individual, but everything went banana-shaped because his parents were awake and aware, hence the inaccuracy of the shots.

I found it very interesting. D'ya think Jeremy used the road signs as target practice?

[Caroline]

Apparently the Bamber case will feature in a new book Bullet Proof?! http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/

http://www.farnhamherald.com/article.cfm?id=116154&headline=Former%20Marine%27s%20%27graffiti%20gunfire%27%20fears&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2016

Interesting! 

[APRIL]

Thank you for that, Nick.   

Holly isn't going to be too happy, especially with the bit about SC's long fingernails!   I can see she'll soon be firing off numerous angry emails to Andy Rigsby.

The part I don't agree with is his suggestion that there might have been two extra magazines.  Wouldn't EP have checked with Radcliffe's or other gunsmiths to see if they'd sold spare ones to Jeremy Bamber?  I think he planned on killing all the family with just one full magazine of ten rounds, i.e. two bullets to the head of each sleeping individual, but everything went banana-shaped because his parents were awake and aware, hence the inaccuracy of the shots.

Interesting! 

 Caroline and Myster, now begins a hunt to find out what AR's background is, what axe he's grinding, and his (possible?) agenda!!!

[Myster]

 Caroline and Myster, now begins a hunt to find out what AR's background is, what axe he's grinding, and his (possible?) agenda!!!

She must be busy... either out jogging, watching androgynous footballers, or herself mooching with James Bond in Muckraker.

[Nicholas]

Thank you for that, Nick.   

Holly isn't going to be too happy, especially with the bit about SC's long fingernails!   I can see she'll soon be firing off numerous angry emails to Andy Rigsby.

The part I don't agree with is his suggestion that there might have been two extra magazines.  Wouldn't EP have checked with Radcliffe's or other gunsmiths to see if they'd sold spare ones to Jeremy Bamber?  I think he planned on killing all the family with just one full magazine of ten rounds, i.e. two bullets to the head of each sleeping individual, but everything went banana-shaped because his parents were awake and aware, hence the inaccuracy of the shots.

“How can anyone make this comment and expect to be taken seriously.....
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9318.msg520837#msg520837

[Holly Goodhead]

They can also think outside of the box like you and I. Just because NB was shot outside of the bedroom does not mean there eas a call from Jeremy. You seem to be saying that there is no alternative but there are many and I don't believe that a jury would have turned by simply being told that NB was outside of the bedroom when shot.

I don't think criminal trials are the place for 'thinking outside the box'.  Afaik jurors are told in no uncertain terms that they must follow the evidence heard during the trial only.  In any event jurors have a lot to take in over a short period of time.  You and I have had the luxury of poring over this stuff for years 

I agree the fact NB was shot on the landing and main stairs does not mean NB necessarily made a call to JB but it does offer up at the very least a level playing field.  As it stood at trial with NB in bed and shot in the bedroom how could he have made the call given the pathological evidence ie incapable of purposeful speech and producing heavy blood loss from the mouth?

[Holly Goodhead]

Thank you for that, Nick.   

Holly isn't going to be too happy, especially with the bit about SC's long fingernails!   I can see she'll soon be firing off numerous angry emails to Andy Rigsby.

The part I don't agree with is his suggestion that there might have been two extra magazines.  Wouldn't EP have checked with Radcliffe's or other gunsmiths to see if they'd sold spare ones to Jeremy Bamber?  I think he planned on killing all the family with just one full magazine of ten rounds, i.e. two bullets to the head of each sleeping individual, but everything went banana-shaped because his parents were awake and aware, hence the inaccuracy of the shots.

Funny how the pathologist stated he was unqualified to comment re SC's nails and yet the likes of the above are more than happy to offer up opinion.