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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The Disappearance of Portuguese youngster Joana Cipriano (8) from the village of Figueira, near Portimćo, Algarve, on 12 September 2004. => Topic started by: sadie on August 03, 2017, 04:36:26 PM

Title: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 03, 2017, 04:36:26 PM
In the past 5 years I have only been in the Algarve for less than a fortnight total but I have been there twice!

BTW, the little brown camper van that was noticed in Figueira before Joana vanished, also vanished and was found dumped in Praia de Luz.


Of course everyone was aware of what happened in the Joana Cipriano case .... and how her mother was tortured to near blindness.

140
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on August 03, 2017, 04:58:30 PM
In the past 5 years I have only been in the Algarve for less than a fortnight total but I have been there twice!

BTW, the little brown camper van that was noticed in Figueira before Joana vanished, also vanished and was found dumped in Praia de Luz.


Of course everyone was aware of what happened in the Joana Cipriano case .... and how her mother was tortured to near blindness.

At least she wasn't fed to the pigs.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Eleanor on August 03, 2017, 05:06:50 PM
At least she wasn't fed to the pigs.

That is outrageous.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on August 03, 2017, 07:10:09 PM
That is outrageous.

Yet some like Sadie insist on defending the witch.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: misty on August 03, 2017, 07:17:22 PM
Yet some like Sadie insist on defending the witch.

Leonor's conviction was unsafe - as unsafe as Kate's would have been had Amaral had his way.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 03, 2017, 09:16:08 PM
At least she wasn't fed to the pigs.
And almost certainly, neither was Joana.

No proof, forensics, about that John, just a figment of Amarals imagination, it seems.



It is highly likely that Joana still lives today, because there are no indicators / pointers/ clues/ forensics of the slightest worth to indicate otherwise.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 03, 2017, 09:49:37 PM
Yet some like Sadie insist on defending the witch.

Amaral and Cristovao had NO FORENSICS and NO PROOF that Joana was murdered by anyone.  Poor Leonor and Joao were encarcerated upon made up evidence .... nothing more IMHO.


I repeat, I think that Joana is probably alive today. 

Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on August 04, 2017, 01:43:43 AM
And almost certainly, neither was Joana.

No proof, forensics, about that John, just a figment of Amarals imagination, it seems.



It is highly likely that Joana still lives today, because there are no indicators / pointers/ clues/ forensics of the slightest worth to indicate otherwise.

I suppose the video admission by Joao Cipriano that he fed Joana's remains to the pigs doesn't count as evidence in your world Sadie thus rendering your support of a woman who admitted to killing her child by battering her head off the kitchen wall pretty pathetic.

Do you honestly think that Joao Cipriano voluntarily took part in a police video to enhance his street cred?
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on August 04, 2017, 01:52:54 AM
Amaral and Cristovao had NO FORENSICS and NO PROOF that Joana was murdered by anyone.  Poor Leonor and Joao were encarcerated upon made up evidence .... nothing more IMHO.


I repeat, I think that Joana is probably alive today.

Those comments are just plainly wrong on so many counts.  There was ample evidence to convict the pair and convicted they were.  Minute traces of blood was found all over the family home, on the wall where Leonor claimed to have hit the girls head, on floor tiles, on shoes, in a refridgerator even after she had attempted to clean away the damning evidence using chemical cleaners which she went out and bought specifically for the job.

How many different stories did she tell investigators before eventually claiming to come clean?

Your attempts to excuse the murdering pair are rather pathetic.  They both got their just desserts imho, one for murder and the other as an accomplice after the fact.  Leonor Cipriano had a history of child neglect and abandonment while her brother had already served a sentence for attempted murder.  How you can possibly offer support for such a pair in an attempt to mitigate on behalf of the McCanns is frankly troubling.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: misty on August 04, 2017, 02:06:45 AM
Those comments are just plainly wrong on so many counts.  There was ample evidence to convict the pair and convicted they were.  Minute traces of blood was found all over the family home, on the wall where Leonor claimed to have hit the girls head, on floor tiles, on shoes, in a refridgerator even after she had attempted to clean away the damning evidence using chemical cleaners which she went out and bought specifically for the job.

How many different stories did she tell investigators before eventually claiming to come clean?

Your attempts to excuse the murdering pair are rather pathetic.  They both got their just desserts imho, one for murder and the other as an accomplice after the fact.  Leonor Cipriano had a history of child neglect and abandonment while her brother had already served a sentence for attempted murder.  How you can possibly offer support for such a pair in an attempt to mitigate on behalf of the McCanns is frankly troubling.

How much resemblance does this have to Joana's case?

*snipped*
After having pummeled her with kicks, the father hurled her, with all his strength, against the wall. Then, grabbing her by the hair, he violently hit her head several times against the bedroom wall, under the passive gaze of the mother. Animal violence that killed *******. The parents then decided to get rid of the body legally, by requesting a death certificate. Tragic mistake. They faked the crime scene, washed the blood off the walls and places where the father had hit the little girl. To get rid of all trace of the crime, they threw into the bin the denim skirt that the little girl wore for the first time that Sunday.
After the examination of the body, the medical examiner and the investigator were in no doubt: ******* had been savagely killed by her father with the passive consent of the mother, and in front of her 5 year-old brother.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on August 04, 2017, 02:13:09 AM
How much resemblance does this have to Joana's case?

*snipped*
After having pummeled her with kicks, the father hurled her, with all his strength, against the wall. Then, grabbing her by the hair, he violently hit her head several times against the bedroom wall, under the passive gaze of the mother. Animal violence that killed *******. The parents then decided to get rid of the body legally, by requesting a death certificate. Tragic mistake. They faked the crime scene, washed the blood off the walls and places where the father had hit the little girl. To get rid of all trace of the crime, they threw into the bin the denim skirt that the little girl wore for the first time that Sunday.
After the examination of the body, the medical examiner and the investigator were in no doubt: ******* had been savagely killed by her father with the passive consent of the mother, and in front of her 5 year-old brother.

Amaral admitted that the murder of three-year-old Mariana by her father had a profound effect on him.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6930.msg301272#msg301272
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: misty on August 04, 2017, 02:37:30 AM
Amaral admitted that the murder of three-year-old Mariana by her father had a profound effect on him.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6930.msg301272#msg301272

3 cases, 3 young girls, 3 girls allegedly killed by blows to their heads against a wall, 3 dwellings cleaned with bleach,
3 dwellings with alleged blood spatters in several places, 3 alleged attempted cover-ups of death.......yes, it certainly had a profound affect on his judgement - IMO it set a precedent.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 04, 2017, 08:31:14 AM
3 cases, 3 young girls, 3 girls allegedly killed by blows to their heads against a wall, 3 dwellings cleaned with bleach,
3 dwellings with alleged blood spatters in several places, 3 alleged attempted cover-ups of death.......yes, it certainly had a profound affect on his judgement - IMO it set a precedent.


You are being very selective.

What of the other cases he pursued during his career.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: barrier on August 04, 2017, 08:35:52 AM

You are being very selective.

What of the other cases he pursued during his career.

It always seems to be his fault for not finding out what happened to Madeleine, or there again maybe he did.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: G-Unit on August 04, 2017, 09:08:22 AM
It always seems to be his fault for not finding out what happened to Madeleine, or there again maybe he did.

Amaral was the coordinator of the investigation. He didn't make all the decisions, that was done by Encarnacao, Neves and the prosecutors. Some seem to think that discrediting Amaral discredits the first investigation.

That's the kind of faulty logic that led the media to believe that discrediting Corbyn would ensure a Tory landslide in the last election.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on August 04, 2017, 09:32:23 AM
3 cases, 3 young girls, 3 girls allegedly killed by blows to their heads against a wall, 3 dwellings cleaned with bleach,
3 dwellings with alleged blood spatters in several places, 3 alleged attempted cover-ups of death.......yes, it certainly had a profound affect on his judgement - IMO it set a precedent.

Three cases?  The only cases which I can see any similarity are that of Mariana and Joana, the former having occurred in 1999 in the Azores and the latter having occurred on the Algarve in 2004. Both were established as murder cases.

In the Mariana case investigators were presented with a body while in Joana's case no body was ever found.  As far as Madeleine's disappearance is concerned Amaral may have drawn on his knowledge of the two other cases but at no time does he imply murder.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Benice on August 04, 2017, 11:20:36 AM
I suppose the video admission by Joao Cipriano that he fed Joana's remains to the pigs doesn't count as evidence in your world Sadie thus rendering your support of a woman who admitted to killing her child by battering her head off the kitchen wall pretty pathetic.

Do you honestly think that Joao Cipriano voluntarily took part in a police video to enhance his street cred?

Once the courts had established that torture had taken place, then nothing that was done or said by those 'accused' could be regarded as credible evidence.     That's just plain common sense.

How anyone can convince themselves that convictions in a case where there is no body, loads of blood, but no DNA evidence, no forensic evidence and especially no motive - (as the court threw out the motive the PJ would have them believe) are actually 'safe' convictions is a mystery to me.

At the very least there should have been a re-trial.

AIMHO



Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 04, 2017, 11:25:42 AM
I suppose the video admission by Joao Cipriano that he fed Joana's remains to the pigs doesn't count as evidence in your world Sadie thus rendering your support of a woman who admitted to killing her child by battering her head off the kitchen wall pretty pathetic.

Do you honestly think that Joao Cipriano voluntarily took part in a police video to enhance his street cred?
I, personally can take no notice of that John.

Joao was a "drughead", and one of limited intelligence.   Get him craving for his next dose and make promises.    With the inducement of the drug craved and promises, he would be simplicity itself to persuade to make that (laughably ridiculous!) video.

The same with his "admission" that he fed Joanas pieces to the pigs.





It is {previously wiped by moderators] on record that Joao wrote to his sister apologising to her for "dropping her in it".  I cannot find this at the moment, but enough readers and members will have seen it that it is a known


As I say, John, I simply cannot believe that rediculous video for the reasons given
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 04, 2017, 12:11:20 PM
Once the courts had established that torture had taken place, then nothing that was done or said by those 'accused' could be regarded as credible evidence.     That's just plain common sense.

How anyone can convince themselves that convictions in a case where there is no body, loads of blood, but no DNA evidence, no forensic evidence and especially no motive - (as the court threw out the motive the PJ would have them believe) are actually 'safe' convictions is a mystery to me.

At the very least there should have been a re-trial.

AIMHO

The police had every reason to put pressure on the Ciprianos and I for one don't blame them for trying by whatever means they had available to them to save the child.  At the time it was thought that Joana was being held somewhere and that her life was in peril.  I applaud the Portuguese police for doing what they did despite the terrible consequences for their senior officers which followed.

What the Ciprianos did to their kin was inhuman, I am truly surprised at Sadie.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 04, 2017, 12:12:44 PM
Oh, gawd, what have I said?  I thought that everything I posted was hard hitting but OK


Another warning

"You have received a warning for posting content which may constitute defamation or libel"


I really dont think I have.

It feels like I am being denied the right to say things as they are.  Admin, Please Explain my so called sin.  TY
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 04, 2017, 12:16:33 PM
Amaral was the coordinator of the investigation. He didn't make all the decisions, that was done by Encarnacao, Neves and the prosecutors. Some seem to think that discrediting Amaral discredits the first investigation.

That's the kind of faulty logic that led the media to believe that discrediting Corbyn would ensure a Tory landslide in the last election.
It seems to me that Encarnacao Guilhermo, being, we are told dead, is a very useful "Fall guy"
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 04, 2017, 12:16:52 PM
Oh, gawd, what have I said?  I thought that everything I posted was hard hitting but OK


Another warning

"You have received a warning for posting content which may constitute defamation or libel"


I really dont think I have.

It feels like I am being denied the right to say things as they are.  Admin, Please Explain my so called sin.  TY

I agree with the mod who sanctioned you, blatant untruths will not be tolerated here. 
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 04, 2017, 12:19:23 PM
I agree with the mod who sanctioned you, blatant untruths will not be tolerated here.
Blatent untruths?  That is a serious accusation.

Tell me the blatent untruths please Angelo.  No need to repeat what I said exactly, but the persons name/s and a bit more of a clue please.


For months now, i have felt that my harder hitting posts have been censored by you guys.

Repeatedly.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 04, 2017, 12:27:25 PM
The police had every reason to put pressure on the Ciprianos and I for one don't blame them for trying by whatever means they had available to them to save the child.  At the time it was thought that Joana was being held somewhere and that her life was in peril.  I applaud the Portuguese police for doing what they did despite the terrible consequences for their senior officers which followed.

What the Ciprianos did to their kin was inhuman, I am truly surprised at Sadie.
Oh, you once told me that you didn't believe in torture.  I was so suprised, I kept a copy of it.

I am surprised that you chose to believe the word of someone who is a proven as being at peace with telling untruths if it suits him ... and that you think that so called evidence extracted from a seriously tortured woman is acceptable.


 



Only in my opinion of course
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Eleanor on August 04, 2017, 12:38:06 PM

I simply do not understand how anyone can accept The Cipriano Convictions as "Safe".  Judicial Secrecy was entirely ignored, and these two were tried by Public Opinion long before it came to Court.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 04, 2017, 12:42:32 PM
Oh, you once told me that you didn't believe in torture.  I was so suprised, I kept a copy of it.

I am surprised that you chose to believe the word of someone who is a proven as being at peace with telling untruths if it suits him ... and that you think that so called evidence extracted from a seriously tortured woman is acceptable.


 



Only in my opinion of course

Yet more false facts Sadie?   Let me remind you because you appears to be attempting to rewrite history. Leonor Cipriano freely admitted to her guilt long before the torture.  She took the blame for the killing then tried to shift that blame to her brother John and then recanted. You do recall she got an extended sentence for lying to the judge?
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 04, 2017, 12:44:35 PM
I simply do not understand how anyone can accept The Cipriano Convictions as "Safe".  Judicial Secrecy was entirely ignored, and these two were tried by Public Opinion long before it came to Court.

Be that as it may, the locals knew very well what the Ciprianos were capable of.  That poor little mite never had a chance with such a mother and uncle.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 04, 2017, 12:49:18 PM
The police had every reason to put pressure on the Ciprianos and I for one don't blame them for trying by whatever means they had available to them to save the child.  At the time it was thought that Joana was being held somewhere and that her life was in peril.  I applaud the Portuguese police for doing what they did despite the terrible consequences for their senior officers which followed.

What the Ciprianos did to their kin was inhuman, I am truly surprised at Sadie.

"What the Ciprianos did to their kin was inhuman"

you are believing the words of two Court proven bent coppers :  Amaral and Cristavao .... and the results of a so called TORTURED OUT confessiion, which is totally unsafe.   

Also you are showing no concern for the fact that Leandro withdrew his witness statement having allegedly been beaten by Amaral, personally, to produce it.

I suppose, in your eyes that was OK too ?
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 04, 2017, 12:52:41 PM
Be that as it may, the locals knew very well what the Ciprianos were capable of.  That poor little mite never had a chance with such a mother and uncle.


exactly   
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 04, 2017, 01:01:20 PM
"What the Ciprianos did to their kin was inhuman"

you are believing the words of two Court proven bent coppers :  Amaral and Cristavao .... and the results of a so called TORTURED OUT confessiion, which is totally unsafe.   

Also you are showing no concern for the fact that Leandro withdrew his witness statement having allegedly been beaten by Amaral, personally, to produce it.

I suppose, in your eyes that was OK too ?

John Cipriano wasn't forced to confess and the recording of it was played to the jury when he refused to speak at trial.  Leandro is irrelevant to the trial as he wasn't there when the killing took place.  In any event he has withdrawn any support he ever had for Leonor and her family have disowned her. The father of the child also supported the verdict.

Do try and get the timeline right Sadie, Leonor admitted killing the girl BEFORE she was committed to prison ie BEFORE the torture.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 04, 2017, 01:08:37 PM
John Cipriano wasn't forced to confess and the recording of it was played to the jury when he refused to speak at trial.  Leandro is irrelevant to the trial as he wasn't there when the killing took place.  In any event he has withdrawn and support he ever had for Leonor and her family have disowned her.

Do try and get the timeline right Sadie, Leonor admitted killing the girl BEFORE she was committed to prison ie BEFORE the torture.

i find it strange that sadie  and others defend people that have  admitted they killd their daughter would the  mcann supporters have heard  about that case if not for the mcanns?
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 04, 2017, 01:10:42 PM
i find it strange that sadie  and others defend people that have  admitted they killd their daughter would the  mcann supporters have heard  about that case if not for the mcanns?

Sadies only reason for supporting Leonor is to have a pop at Amaral, pretty pathetic in my view.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 04, 2017, 01:11:59 PM
Sadies only reason for supporting Leonor is to have a pop at Amaral, pretty pathetic in my view.

i agree
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Eleanor on August 04, 2017, 01:30:33 PM

We'll cut the Sadie bashing, thank you.  On Forum is not the place.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 04, 2017, 01:56:57 PM
We'll cut the Sadie bashing, thank you.  On Forum is not the place.

Are you saying it isn't true?  Sadie's bleatings on behalf of murderers John and Leonor Cipriano is pretty nauseous.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: misty on August 04, 2017, 02:52:58 PM
Are you saying it isn't true?  Sadie's bleatings on behalf of murderers John and Leonor Cipriano is pretty nauseous.

Your defence of a justice system which not only allows but encourages torture as a means of serving justice is also pretty nauseous. Are elements of the Portuguese police as prejudiced against suspected child killers as they are against black people? You really believe that the accused officers didn't use threatening behaviour or violence to obtain the result THEY wanted, not the truth?
Here is some more background to the latest case involving the police at Cova da Moura.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32419952
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: G-Unit on August 04, 2017, 03:03:40 PM
Are you saying it isn't true?  Sadie's bleatings on behalf of murderers John and Leonor Cipriano is pretty nauseous.

Insisting that they were innocent is an important part of the Amaral/PJ-bashing agenda. After all, if the PJ were right about the Ciprianos they're not as useless as people want us to think they are.



Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: misty on August 04, 2017, 03:32:18 PM
Insisting that they were innocent is an important part of the Amaral/PJ-bashing agenda. After all, if the PJ were right about the Ciprianos they're not as useless as people want us to think they are.

Exercising a form of vilig[ censored word]m within a recognised legal system is not something to be condoned.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 04, 2017, 03:58:09 PM
Sadies only reason for supporting Leonor is to have a pop at Amaral, pretty pathetic in my view.
sadies reason for supporting Leonor and Joao is the same as her reason for supporting The Mccanns.

sadie is passionate about Justice and especially about the treatment that The Ciprianos received .  Like wise The Mccanns and Michael Cook

... and without a shred of doubt, sadie is passionate about what has happened to poor Madeleine and Joana.  But, both are almost certainly alive IMO.   And I have numerous pointers to say that, especially about Madeleine.


We will just wait and see.  Hopefully the end to this saga will come soon, with the safe return of both Madeleine and Joana
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 04, 2017, 04:24:32 PM
Insisting that they were innocent is an important part of the Amaral/PJ-bashing agenda. After all, if the PJ were right about the Ciprianos they're not as useless as people want us to think they are.
Please do not misrepresent me.
I believe the Ciprianos to be innocent, but I cant be sure.

What I can be sure of is that the so called evidence put forward by Amaral and Cristavao doesn't hold any water.  There was NO case against them that I could see ... just the stories from two, sorry to say it again, later Court proven Criminal Inspectors of Police.

These Officers even went so far as to state thatJoana went home and found her mother having sex with sibling brother.  Now how coukld they have known this.  The Courts IIRC disallowed this







Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 04, 2017, 04:26:51 PM
sadies reason for supporting Leonor and Joao is the same as her reason for supporting The Mccanns.

sadie is passionate about Justice and especially about the treatment that The Ciprianos received .  Like wise The Mccanns and Michael Cook

... and without a shred of doubt, sadie is passionate about what has happened to poor Madeleine and Joana.  But, both almost certainly alive IMO.   And with numerous pointers to say that, especially about Madeleine.


We will just wait and see.  Hopefully the end to this saga will come soon, with the safe return of both Madeleine and Joana

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illeism (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illeism)
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 04, 2017, 04:50:57 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illeism (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illeism)

Hahaha !

none true in this instance.  Sorry to disappoint you.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 04, 2017, 04:53:24 PM
sadies reason for supporting Leonor and Joao is the same as her reason for supporting The Mccanns.

sadie is passionate about Justice and especially about the treatment that The Ciprianos received .  Like wise The Mccanns and Michael Cook

... and without a shred of doubt, sadie is passionate about what has happened to poor Madeleine and Joana.  But, both almost certainly alive IMO.   And with numerous pointers to say that, especially about Madeleine.


We will just wait and see.  Hopefully the end to this saga will come soon, with the safe return of both Madeleine and Joana
The last link you posted re Michael Cook went as follows.  In Parliament, Cook's MP got up and trotted out a long list of alleged tortures. When he sat down, a Foreign Office spokesman got up and responded thus.  That Cook had been visited numerous times in prison pre-trial.  That Cook had showed no signs of torture.  That Cook had been asked on numerous occasions about his treatment.  That Cook had never complained about his treatment.

Which do I think is more accurate - Cook's MP, who was never there - or the Foreign Office, which visited him several times?   Hmm.

Did Mr Cook commit the murder?  I have no opinion on that, as I know only the barest of bones regarding the case.

If you think Mr Cook's case is a miscarriage of justice, kindly consider requesting a new sub-forum from John.

But every time Mr Cook's case is linked in some way to the alleged Spanish Portuguese Inquisition, I am going to point out that Hansard deems otherwise.

This was the single redeeming point in Danny Collins opus "Vanished".  He included the Hansard report as an appendix, which was when I realised the FO had rubbished allegations of brutality in Mr Cook's case.

For those not familiar with the case, Mr Cook should be out and about again, assuming he survived his sentence.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 05, 2017, 11:01:10 AM
Exercising a form of vilig[ censored word]m within a recognised legal system is not something to be condoned.

Elements of the police behave in such a manner in every country in the world, even in modern-day England.  Picking Portugal out for criticism is very narrow minded.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: misty on August 05, 2017, 11:12:59 AM
Elements of the police behave in such a manner in every country in the world, even in modern-day England.  Picking Portugal out for criticism is very narrow minded.

I am well aware Portugal is not unique in that respect. However, there are some who believe that the people who dealt with the Joana & Madeleine cases are paragons of virtue when nothing could be further from the truth. Obtaining a conviction, just or unjust,  by unlawful means is not something any country should be proud of. IMO.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 05, 2017, 11:14:58 AM
Your defence of a justice system which not only allows but encourages torture as a means of serving justice is also pretty nauseous. Are elements of the Portuguese police as prejudiced against suspected child killers as they are against black people? You really believe that the accused officers didn't use threatening behaviour or violence to obtain the result THEY wanted, not the truth?
Here is some more background to the latest case involving the police at Cova da Moura.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32419952

So wrong.  If the Portuguese justice system had condoned torture then those PJ officers who were prosecuted would have never been brought before the courts in the first place.  In fact, it says much for the Portuguese authorities that despite the country's Marxist past that they were prepared to stand up against such behaviour.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 05, 2017, 11:38:50 AM
sadies reason for supporting Leonor and Joao is the same as her reason for supporting The Mccanns.

sadie is passionate about Justice and especially about the treatment that The Ciprianos received .  Like wise The Mccanns and Michael Cook

... and without a shred of doubt, sadie is passionate about what has happened to poor Madeleine and Joana.  But, both are almost certainly alive IMO.   And I have numerous pointers to say that, especially about Madeleine.


We will just wait and see.  Hopefully the end to this saga will come soon, with the safe return of both Madeleine and Joana

Whistling in the wind comes to mind.  The Ciprianos by their own acts and voluntary admissions were rightly found guilty of involvement in Joana's murder, they are an evil pair and should never be released from prison.  As for Madeleine, her fate remains unknown.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Benice on August 05, 2017, 11:41:14 AM
So wrong.  If the Portuguese justice system had condoned torture then those PJ officers who were prosecuted would have never been brought before the courts in the first place.  In fact, it says much for the Portuguese authorities that despite the country's Marxist past that they were prepared to stand up against such behaviour.

Surely the evidence from the Prison Governor herself in the LC case left the authorities with no alternative but to prosecute.      Had she agreed to 'play ball' with the PJ - they would never have been prosecuted IMO.

Even though the court found that LC had been tortured - her torturers are still walking around when they should be the ones in prison IMO.

A shameful state of affairs - in any country.

Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 05, 2017, 11:41:43 AM
Please do not misrepresent me.
I believe the Ciprianos to be innocent, but I cant be sure.

What I can be sure of is that the so called evidence put forward by Amaral and Cristavao doesn't hold any water.  There was NO case against them that I could see ... just the stories from two, sorry to say it again, later Court proven Criminal Inspectors of Police.

These Officers even went so far as to state thatJoana went home and found her mother having sex with sibling brother.  Now how coukld they have known this.  The Courts IIRC disallowed this

Your belief is not based on the known evidence which you so readily disregard.  I suggest you do some further research in the case before making such ridiculous comments.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 05, 2017, 11:44:07 AM
Your belief is not based on the known evidence which you so readily disregard.  I suggest you do some further research in the case before making such ridiculous comments.
WRONG again Angelo

Based on Court so called evidence.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 05, 2017, 11:49:06 AM
Surely the evidence from the Prison Governor herself in the LC case left the authorities with no alternative but to prosecute.      Had she agreed to 'play ball' with the PJ - they would never have been prosecuted IMO.

Even though the court found that LC had been tortured - her torturers are still walking around when they should be the ones in prison IMO.

A shameful state of affairs - in any country.

I agree it was shameful conduct when they took Leonor out of prison and in the confines of a police station subjected her to torture by placing a paper bag over her head and hitting her with a cardboard tube.  That sort of conduct is unacceptable anywhere.

On the flip side, the police were trying to find an eight-year-old child who had disappeared and who they thought might be in dire danger or even dying.  By submitting Leonor Cipriano to torture they hoped to find out where she was hidden. I don't condone their behaviour but I do understand it.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 05, 2017, 11:50:12 AM
WRONG again Angelo

Based on Court so called evidence.

The evidence is there for all to see.  A properly convened court understood it and found her guilty of murder.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 05, 2017, 12:05:32 PM
The evidence is there for all to see.  A properly convened court understood it and found her guilty of murder.
Yep, upon "things" that Amaral and Cristavao "magicked up" and spouted as evidence.  Nothing backed them up.    There was absolutely NO SOUND EVIDENCE as anyone reading the report will know.

Of course there was the TORTURED OUT so called admissions and witness statement.  That is NOT EVIDENCE at all Angelo, as any civilized person will know and acknowledge.


Now, if you can show me some SOUND EVIDENCE, then I might change my mind.

AIMHO
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: misty on August 05, 2017, 12:06:21 PM
So wrong.  If the Portuguese justice system had condoned torture then those PJ officers who were prosecuted would have never been brought before the courts in the first place.  In fact, it says much for the Portuguese authorities that despite the country's Marxist past that they were prepared to stand up against such behaviour.

Did anyone in the justice system give evidence against the torturers? Were they jailed? Rhetorical questions.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 05, 2017, 12:07:06 PM
Yet again. the Cipriano's confessed to the crime before the so called torture.

They also blamed each other.

They also kept changing their stories.

Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Benice on August 05, 2017, 12:11:06 PM
I agree it was shameful conduct when they took Leonor out of prison and in the confines of a police station subjected her to torture by placing a paper bag over her head and hitting her with a cardboard tube.  That sort of conduct is unacceptable anywhere.

On the flip side, the police were trying to find an eight-year-old child who had disappeared and who they thought might be in dire danger.  By submitting Leonor Cipriano to torture they hoped to find out where she was hidden. I don't condone their behaviour but I do understand it.

IIRC the claim is that LC confessed to murdering her child before she was tortured.

If that was true then IMO it doesn't make any sense at all that she would not also tell them where the body was at the same time. 

Why suffer hours of torture when she'd already admitted to the major crime.  Once she had done that then surely - full co-operation with the PJ would have been in her best interests.

I'm firmly of the opinion that the reason - despite hours of torture- that she did not tell them where the body was -  was because she didn't know where it was  - because her daughter had not been murdered.  That is the only reason which makes any sense IMO.

In the end she agreed to say whatever the PJ told her she'd done IMO.
That's what happens when people are tortured  - they will agree to anything to stop the pain.

And that is also why nothing they say or do can be regarded as credible - once torture has been established.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 05, 2017, 12:12:57 PM
IIRC the claim is that LC confessed to murdering her child before she was tortured.

If that was true then IMO it doesn't make any sense at all that she would not also tell them where the body was at the same time. 

Why suffer hours of torture when she'd already admitted to the major crime.  Once she had done that then surely - full co-operation with the PJ would have been in her best interests.

I'm firmly of the opinion that the reason - despite hours of torture- that she did not tell them where the body was -  was because she didn't know where it was  - because her daughter had not been murdered.  That is the only reason which makes any sense IMO.

In the end she agreed to say whatever the PJ told her she'd done IMO.
That's what happens when people are tortured  - they will agree to anything to stop the pain.

And that is also why nothing they say or do can be regarded as credible - once torture has been established.
AIMHO

No matter what you say, she and her brother remain convicted murderers.

Do you really believe that murderers always admit their crimes ?
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 05, 2017, 12:25:15 PM
Yet again. the Cipriano's confessed to the crime before the so called torture.

They also blamed each other.

They also kept changing their stories.

According to two Police Inspectors who are now criminals and the lead one, Amaral, is a Court proven liar (Perjurer).

Stephen, you are intelligent.  How can you swallow the words of two such officers? 

Amaral and Cristovao say that Leonor and Joao confessed before the torture. 


So if they had already confessed, why did they torture them?



Think about it .... and a response would be appreciated .... you might even get me to change my mind


BTW, do you condone Torture?

AIMHO
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Benice on August 05, 2017, 12:31:08 PM
No matter what you say, she and her brother remain convicted murderers.

Do you really believe that murderers always admit their crimes ?

Of course I don't.

However, can you come up with a reason why she preferred to suffer hours of torture -  rather than simply just tell the PJ where her child's body was - once she had confessed to her murder? 

Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Eleanor on August 05, 2017, 12:32:17 PM
Was there a written confession?  Signed and dated?
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 05, 2017, 12:33:39 PM
This has been done to death numerous times.

Now tell me who recorded the initial confessions.

As to the question on torture, I have answered that numerous times, NO I don't .

Now tell me Sadie, in the real world, do you actually seriously think torture will never happen ?

Have you also forgotten that families of prisoners, claimed that prisoners tortured Cipriano .
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 05, 2017, 12:39:06 PM
Surely the evidence from the Prison Governor herself in the LC case left the authorities with no alternative but to prosecute.      Had she agreed to 'play ball' with the PJ - they would never have been prosecuted IMO.

Even though the court found that LC had been tortured - her torturers are still walking around when they should be the ones in prison IMO.

A shameful state of affairs - in any country.

She either suffered her injuries in Prison or in police custody. Unsurprisingly the Prison Governor said it didn't happen there.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Brietta on August 05, 2017, 12:59:19 PM
Yet again. the Cipriano's confessed to the crime before the so called torture.

They also blamed each other.

They also kept changing their stories.

I think you are wrong in that, Stephen, and I don't think I have ever seen any sort of official timeline for your claim.
Can you cite one for me, please.

I understood Leonor confessed after being tortured and immediately withdrew it as soon as she had access to a lawyer.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 05, 2017, 01:05:01 PM
This has been done to death numerous times.

Now tell me who recorded the initial confessions.

As to the question on torture, I have answered that numerous times, NO I don't .

Now tell me Sadie, in the real world, do you actually seriously think torture will never happen ?

Have you also forgotten that families of prisoners, claimed that prisoners tortured Cipriano .

I am so glad that you dont condone torture, yet you are prepared to accept the results of a Court case which depended upon it for both the accused and the only so called witness, Leandro?

After the Court case, Leandro made sure he withdrew his so called witness statement.

Of course, unfortunately, there is some bullying within different Police Forces of the World, but NOT to that level, I would hope.

It is a sign of a Civilized Country that Court cases are run fairly and safely no matter the status of the individuals involved.  This Court case was completely unsafe, depending on torture and the totally unbacked ruminations/ stories of two crooked Police Officers.

Cos like it or not, both were Criminals ... and Amaral proved himself a liar when it pleased him, by committing perjury in the Portuguese Courts


Please prove me wrong.  I am listening , altho i might have to come back later.

AIMHO
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 05, 2017, 01:14:07 PM
She either suffered her injuries in Prison or in police custody. Unsurprisingly the Prison Governor said it didn't happen there.
The Prison Governor, Dr Ana Calado, and a very brave woman, was so appalled at Leonors bruised face and body that she arranged for a doctor to see her, photographs to be taken and she then reported it. 

She later wished that she had further photographs because as the days progressed the damage grew worse.  The blood above Leonors eyes was accumulating and affecting her sight.


Slarti, the Court ruled that the damage took place at the hands of the PJ.   Didn't you bother to read it?
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Benice on August 05, 2017, 01:18:20 PM
She either suffered her injuries in Prison or in police custody. Unsurprisingly the Prison Governor said it didn't happen there.

I agree - not at all surprising that the Prison Governor would not accept liability for something which she knew didn't happen in her prison.

IIRC  the PJ did not pursue that claim, but decided on the 'fell down the stairs' option instead.  It seems even they drew the line at making allegations against a Prison Governor which she could no doubt prove from her records were untrue.

Good for her for not being drawn into a conspiracy to cover up the torture of one of her inmates by elements of the  PJ.     And imo it was that decision by her which made the prosecution of PJ officers unavoidable from the POV of the authorities.

All in my opinion of course.

Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on August 05, 2017, 01:36:05 PM
I think you are wrong in that, Stephen, and I don't think I have ever seen any sort of official timeline for your claim.
Can you cite one for me, please.

I understood Leonor confessed after being tortured and immediately withdrew it as soon as she had access to a lawyer.

She took the blame for it and that is why she was remanded in custody while her brother Joćo got bail.  She later claimed that she and Joćo decided to sell the girl to strangers but that the exchange went badly wrong, later still she claimed that it was Joćo who hit the girl and disposed of the remains thus why she was never able to reveal where the body was hidden.

It is immaterial imo who killed the girl as both Leonor and Joćo were culpable.  I do agree however that his sentence should have been increased since he appears to be the leading character in this sorry tale with Leonor being very much under his control.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on August 05, 2017, 02:20:14 PM
Some facts about Leonor Cipriano.

First, she claimed that she had seen who had assaulted her, but later she denied this. She said that there was a blue plastic bag over her head, but soon afterwards changed this to saying it was ‘green or blue’.

During the investigation into her allegation, she said that she had been assaulted ‘more than once’, but during the trial, she stated it that it happened only once. She said she knew the time of the beating - around 8.00pm - because she had looked at the clock in the room where she had been beaten. However, during the trial, she was asked to describe the room and did so without referring to any clock.

Despite having made a full confession before being convicted in 2005, she told the Court: “I don’t remember having confessed”, she told the court. Confessions are not admissible in court in Portugal unless the defendant repeats them in open court. Leonor Cipriano did repeat her confession during her trial in 2005. That makes it all the more strange that she changed her mind two years later, saying she didn’t remember having confessed.

Leonor Cipriano originally claimed she had been beaten by PJ inspectors, but when asked to pick them out of a line-up, she couldn't do so. She then changed her story to say that the PJ inspectors ‘must have arranged for another person or persons unknown to come into the police station and beat her’.   Later she changed her mind once again claiming she was beaten by the PJ but couldn't identify them because a bag was placed over her head during the beating.

Leonor Cipriano never previously alleged that Goncalo Amaral had personally laid a hand on her until the Court hearing in Faro. Yet, in the Faro court, Leonor Cipriano changed her story once again and alleged that Goncalo Amaral had hit her during the beating.

In her original statement, Leonor Cipriano said she knew the time the assaults on her took place because there was a clock on the wall in the room, and that it was approximately from 6.00pm to 8.00pm. Yet three of the named PJ inspectors accused of beating her were not even in the building at that time; they did not sign into the police station until 8.00 pm on the day in question.

At one point during the beating she claimed she was forced to kneel on broken glass. But there appears to be no record of damage to her knees or legs that would be consistent with such a serious incident. When originally asked by the Prison Governor at Odemira Prison to explain her injuries, Leonor Cipriano failed to implicate any police officers.

When Leonor Cipriano was asked in Court to give the names of the people she was accusing, she pulled a piece of paper out of her purse. A senior prison officer gave evidence that he was told by the Director of the Prison where Cipriano was being held (Odemira Prison), to change medical reports.

Leonor Cipriano denied that she ever had a female lawyer, however, she did have a female lawyer present when she made her original confession.

Little wonder therefore that she received an additional sentence for perjury.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 05, 2017, 02:42:37 PM
Some facts about Leonor Cipriano.

First, she claimed that she had seen who had assaulted her, but later she denied this. She said that there was a blue plastic bag over her head, but soon afterwards changed this to saying it was ‘green or blue’.

During the investigation into her allegation, she said that she had been assaulted ‘more than once’, but during the trial, she stated it that it happened only once. She said she knew the time of the beating - around 8.00pm - because she had looked at the clock in the room where she had been beaten. However, during the trial, she was asked to describe the room and did so without referring to any clock.

Despite having made a full confession before being convicted in 2005, she told the Court: “I don’t remember having confessed”, she told the court. Confessions are not admissible in court in Portugal unless the defendant repeats them in open court. Leonor Cipriano did repeat her confession during her trial in 2005. That makes it all the more strange that she changed her mind two years later, saying she didn’t remember having confessed.

Leonor Cipriano originally claimed she had been beaten by PJ inspectors, but when asked to pick them out of a line-up, she couldn't do so. She then changed her story to say that the PJ inspectors ‘must have arranged for another person or persons unknown to come into the police station and beat her’.   Later she changed her mind once again claiming she was beaten by the PJ but couldn't identify them because a bag was placed over her head during the beating.

Leonor Cipriano never previously alleged that Goncalo Amaral had personally laid a hand on her until the Court hearing in Faro. Yet, in the Faro court, Leonor Cipriano changed her story once again and alleged that Goncalo Amaral had hit her during the beating.

In her original statement, Leonor Cipriano said she knew the time the assaults on her took place because there was a clock on the wall in the room, and that it was approximately from 6.00pm to 8.00pm. Yet three of the named PJ inspectors accused of beating her were not even in the building at that time; they did not sign into the police station until 8.00 pm on the day in question.

At one point during the beating she claimed she was forced to kneel on broken glass. But there appears to be no record of damage to her knees or legs that would be consistent with such a serious incident. When originally asked by the Prison Governor at Odemira Prison to explain her injuries, Leonor Cipriano failed to implicate any police officers.

When Leonor Cipriano was asked in Court to give the names of the people she was accusing, she pulled a piece of paper out of her purse. A senior prison officer gave evidence that he was told by the Director of the Prison where Cipriano was being held (Odemira Prison), to change medical reports.

Leonor Cipriano denied that she ever had a female lawyer, however, she did have a female lawyer present when she made her original confession.

Little wonder therefore that she received an additional sentence for perjury.

A precise analysis of the situation John. 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on August 05, 2017, 03:47:02 PM
A precise analysis of the situation John. 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(

I think for anyone reading this, the chances of Leonor Cipriano being the innocent that some claim her to be are so remote that her guilt must be beyond any discernible doubt.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 05, 2017, 04:19:09 PM
I think for anyone reading this, the chances of Leonor Cipriano being the innocent that some claim her to be are so remote that her guilt must be beyond any discernible doubt.

I agree.

Unfortunately John, some will still argue otherwise.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Benice on August 05, 2017, 07:59:42 PM
I think for anyone reading this, the chances of Leonor Cipriano being the innocent that some claim her to be are so remote that her guilt must be beyond any discernible doubt.


More to the point - anyone reading and believing that must be mighty puzzled as to how on earth a court ever  found that she had been tortured in the first place.    But they did!

You seem to have missed that rather large elephant in the room John.





Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on August 05, 2017, 09:28:03 PM

More to the point - anyone reading and believing that must be mighty puzzled as to how on earth a court ever  found that she had been tortured in the first place.    But they did!

You seem to have missed that rather large elephant in the room John.

A court rightly found that she had been tortured, another court rightly determined that she was guilty and implicated in the murder of her daughter and furthermore had committed perjury.

A poor innocent woman she certainly is not.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 06, 2017, 12:42:15 AM
She took the blame for it and that is why she was remanded in custody while her brother Joćo got bail.  She later claimed that she and Joćo decided to sell the girl to strangers but that the exchange went badly wrong, later still she claimed that it was Joćo who hit the girl and disposed of the remains thus why she was never able to reveal where the body was hidden.

It is immaterial imo who killed the girl as both Leonor and Joćo were culpable.  I do agree however that his sentence should have been increased since he appears to be the leading character in this sorry tale with Leonor being very much under his control.
There is NOTHING whatsoever to show that Joana is dead. 

But it is convenient to certain Police Officers that she be believed dead by the masses.


I believe that I may have two pieces of evidence that she is still alive.  However, I am not sharing them.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 06, 2017, 08:35:21 AM
There is NOTHING whatsoever to show that Joana is dead. 

But it is convenient to certain Police Officers that she be believed dead by the masses.


I believe that I may have two pieces of evidence that she is still alive.  However, I am not sharing them.

You have already been given the evidence she is dead, but you ignore it. REPEATEDLY.

If you have 'evidence', then take it to the relevant authorities.

After all, failure to do so could hinder an investigation and I believe, render you an accessory.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 06, 2017, 11:26:56 AM
There is NOTHING whatsoever to show that Joana is dead.

But it is convenient to certain Police Officers that she be believed dead by the masses.


I believe that I may have two pieces of evidence that she is still alive.  However, I am not sharing them.

Its what in some legal circles is called EVIDENCE.   The jury convicted her on all the evidence which included forensics and witness testimony.  Not forgetting the video confession of her brother of course.

The Cipriano case has little in common with the McCann case.  In Cipriano you have a choice between poor little girl abducted by strangers on Fair Day, a delinquent mother and uncle who chose to sell the child to strangers or a death and disposal/concealment following domestic violence.  In McCann the choice is abducted by a stranger from her bedroom, abducted by a stranger from the street outside, met with an accident in the apartment or in the street outside.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 06, 2017, 12:27:04 PM
You have already been given the evidence she is dead, but you ignore it. REPEATEDLY.

If you have 'evidence', then take it to the relevant authorities.

After all, failure to do so could hinder an investigation and I believe, render you an accessory.
Show me again solid evidence that Joana is dead.

By solid, I mean:
1)  forensically verified,
2)  backed up by witnesses who were NOT tortured,
3)  not a so called confession that came from a tortured woman, or a man who was below average intelligence  and a druggie, so easily enduced with the aid of drugs and promises and possibly a bit iof the rough stuff.  A man who later apologised to his sister for dropping her in it.
4)  not from the ruminations and mouths of two officers who subsequently turned out to be crooked cops ... one a court confirmed liar (perjurer) ... and with nothing solid to back their claims

Add to this mix, the fact that extreme torture was used against Leonor and lesser stuff against Leandro for him to produce a so called witness statement.  A witness statement which he rescinded as soon as it was safe to do so, which was after the case and unhappily the conviction..
 
This kis an echo of what happened in the Michael Cook case.  The gardener who was the so called witness there also rescinded his witness statement after the case when it was safe to do so .... but unhappily in both cases the guilty verdict had been decided and it was too late

I repeat, stephen, Show me solid evidence that Joana is dead.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 06, 2017, 01:03:53 PM
Show me again solid evidence that Joana is dead.

By solid, I mean:
1)  forensically verified,
2)  backed up by witnesses who were NOT tortured,
3)  not a so called confession that came from a tortured woman, or a man who was below average intelligence  and a druggie, so easily enduced with the aid of drugs and promises and possibly a bit iof the rough stuff.  A man who later apologised to his sister for dropping her in it.
4)  not from the ruminations and mouths of two officers who subsequently turned out to be crooked cops ... one a court confirmed liar (perjurer) ... and with nothing solid to back their claims

Add to this mix, the fact that extreme torture was used against Leonor and lesser stuff against Leandro for him to produce a so called witness statement.  A witness statement which he rescinded as soon as it was safe to do so, which was after the case and unhappily the conviction..
 
This kis an echo of what happened in the Michael Cook case.  The gardener who was the so called witness there also rescinded his witness statement after the case when it was safe to do so .... but unhappily in both cases the guilty verdict had been decided and it was too late

I repeat, stephen, Show me solid evidence that Joana is dead.

Human hair and bone fragments were found in the pig sty.  Human blood was found on the wall where the girl was assaulted, on the floor, on shoes and in the fridge. The girl was seen by a neighbour going home.  Her shoes were found in the house.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 06, 2017, 01:07:21 PM
Show me again solid evidence that Joana is dead.

By solid, I mean:
1)  forensically verified,
2)  backed up by witnesses who were NOT tortured,
3)  not a so called confession that came from a tortured woman, or a man who was below average intelligence  and a druggie, so easily enduced with the aid of drugs and promises and possibly a bit iof the rough stuff.  A man who later apologised to his sister for dropping her in it.
4)  not from the ruminations and mouths of two officers who subsequently turned out to be crooked cops ... one a court confirmed liar (perjurer) ... and with nothing solid to back their claims

Add to this mix, the fact that extreme torture was used against Leonor and lesser stuff against Leandro for him to produce a so called witness statement.  A witness statement which he rescinded as soon as it was safe to do so, which was after the case and unhappily the conviction..
 
This kis an echo of what happened in the Michael Cook case.  The gardener who was the so called witness there also rescinded his witness statement after the case when it was safe to do so .... but unhappily in both cases the guilty verdict had been decided and it was too late

I repeat, stephen, Show me solid evidence that Joana is dead.

This has been explained to you on numerous occasions.

You also do not need a body to prove murder.

I will leave you to your pointers.

Now, as I said earlier, if you have 'evidence', pass it on.

Also, read John's comments yesterday, AND try to understand them, above your bias, in trying to attack Amaral.

Again REMEMBER, confessions before the so called 'torture'.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 06, 2017, 01:23:21 PM
 Reply #67 on: Today at 02:20:14 PM Ā»
Some facts about Leonor Cipriano.

Quote
First, she claimed that she had seen who had assaulted her, but later she denied this. She said that there was a blue plastic bag over her head, but soon afterwards changed this to saying it was ˜green or blue".

So Leonor saw people immediately before the torture and after the torture ... and believed that they were the torturers ... and maybe they were? . 

Did they introduce themselves and give her their names?  With all that was going on, was she focussing properly?   Poor battered, terrified and recently bereaved woman.
 
She had a bag over her head, which she initially said was blue but later changed it to saying  it was either ˜green or blue" ....../.  Big deal!!

What colour is this ? 

(https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.hCZ58oAXsB-OWLD23AzcdQEsEs&w=171&h=169&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&dpr=1.5&pid=1.7)

Blue?  Blue or Green?  Green ?   
 
 

Quote
During the investigation into her allegation, she said that she had been assaulted ā€˜more than onceā€™, but during the trial, she stated it that it happened only once. She said she knew the time of the beating - around 8.00pm - because she had looked at the clock in the room where she had been beaten. However, during the trial, she was asked to describe the room and did so without referring to any clock.

 
So there was a dinner/ coffee break break for the torturers.   Could be classified as tortured once or could be classified as tortured twice.  Think about it.
 
Jeez, John how twee,
In a panicky situation like at her Court trial, she didnn't remember to add the clock ... and that is held against her?  What trite nonsense.  Poor womans head must have been turning cartwheels with all the lies coming out against her and the fear of what lay ahead.

 
Quote

Despite having made a full confession before being convicted in 2005, she told the Court: ā€œI donā€™t remember having confessedā€, she told the court. Confessions are not admissible in court in Portugal unless the defendant repeats them in open court. Leonor Cipriano did repeat her confession during her trial in 2005. That makes it all the more strange that she changed her mind two years later, saying she didnā€™t remember having confessed.

Who says that Leonor confessed publicly in Court?  Was some trick used like we have witnessed on here in the past where people twist ones words to mean something else?   I would likie to read the actual Court transcript on that and even then fear can cause people to acquiesse.  She had plenty of reason for fear after all that torture, disgusting disinformation put out about her .... and knowing the case was largely based upon a tortured out so called confession.  This so called confession would not have happened if it had not been that she just had to escape the pain of that atrocious torture.
 

 
Quote

Leonor Cipriano originally claimed she had been beaten by PJ inspectors, but when asked to pick them out of a line-up, she couldn't do so. She then changed her story to say that the PJ inspectors must have arranged for another person or persons unknown to come into the police station and beat her.   Later she changed her mind once again claiming she was beaten by the PJ but couldn't identify them because a bag was placed over her head during the beating.

 
She saw PJ Inspectors before and after the beatings and could hear their voices, even when the bag was over her head.  She naturally thought that they had beaten her, and she was probably right.... but we dont know for certain.  Can you see people when your head is covered with a bag, John ?   Would you expect the people that you saw immediately before and after your torture to be the ones who did it?
 
The PJ Officers, DCCB, knew how to keep themselves "clean" by denying her the sight of them.  Cunning, cruel and devious bast**ds.   Well practiced at deceit and cover up by the sound of things

 
Quote

Leonor Cipriano never previously alleged that Goncalo Amaral had personally laid a hand on her until the Court hearing in Faro. Yet, in the Faro court, Leonor Cipriano changed her story once again and alleged that Goncalo Amaral had hit her during the beating
.
 


You have Amarals word for this do you?  If you don't mind my saying so, you are gullible.  He is a proven perjurer.

Quote
In her original statement, Leonor Cipriano said she knew the time the assaults on her took place because there was a clock on the wall in the room, and that it was approximately from 6.00pm to 8.00pm. Yet three of the named PJ inspectors accused of beating her were not even in the building at that time; they did not sign into the police station until 8.00 pm on the day in question.

 
Her original statement was taken when she had just been tortured, and to get rid of the on-going pain she would agree to anything ... sign anything.   That is the nature of tortured out statements and the reason that they are not allowed in Court.
 
If one is used to twisting things, it is easy enough to re-arrange the sign in times anyway
 
 
Quote

At one point during the beating she claimed she was forced to kneel on broken glass. But there appears to be no record of damage to her knees or legs that would be consistent with such a serious incident. When originally asked by the Prison Governor at Odemira Prison to explain her injuries, Leonor Cipriano failed to implicate any police officers.

 
There is a record of her being forced to kneel on glass ashtrays and also a record of her having the imprint of the glass ashtrays on her knees for a very long operiod afterwards.  Fancy having to kneel on a hard glass surface for a period, the pain from that alone would be excruciating.
 
I think the record was in the report sent to the ECHR, but it might have been somewhere else.   Please tell me if it was not in that report.

 
Quote

When Leonor Cipriano was asked in Court to give the names of the people she was accusing, she pulled a piece of paper out of her purse. A senior prison officer gave evidence that he was told by the Director of the Prison where Cipriano was being held (Odemira Prison), to change medical reports.

So Leonor pulled a piece of paper out of her purse?   Ermm ?  So what ?
 
The senior Prison officer could not have been believed by the Court because the senior Judge found that Leonor DID receive her bruises from Torture by the PJ. 
 
This begs the question, did the Prison officer lie or has it been twisted and misreported?
 
*If * he lied, could it be that the senior Prison Officer perchance had been treated like Leandro ?   Roughed up/tortured/ threatened a good bit? .... or even promised some reward? 
 
I doubt we will ever know, but based on photographs and medical evidence, the judge obviously found that Leonor had not fallen down the stairs.  That she had been tortured and that it happened under the interrogation of the PJ under Amarals command.
 
 
Quote
Leonor Cipriano denied that she ever had a female lawyer, however, she did have a female lawyer present when she made her original confession.

Did they introduce her ?  Maybe she didn't even know who the strange woman was.  Oh John, you are presuming things here
 
Quote

Little wonder therefore that she received an additional sentence for perjury.

That was disgusting and a further black mark against the so called Justice and also the Judiciary in Portugal.  The case was held in Camera

... Unbelievable, it was hidden from the world, case in Camera. 
I wonder why that was? 

Can you answer that?



There was NOTHING SOLID TO CONVICT LEONOR (or Joao) on. 

Just
1)   an unsubstantiated and wild theory from the two crooked Officers in charge of the prosecutions case,
2)   a TORTURED out so called confession which would not stand up in the Courts of any civilized country,
3)   a tortured out witness statement
4)   Some blood in the fridge and on the walls where they butchered their pigs.  None of this was tested in any way and most probably was not even human but the blood of pigs.
5)   A laughable and rediculous video of Joao trying to stuff a blow up doll into a freezer / fridge.  Any druggie would do that fior a fix
etc,


But NO investigation of the white and brown camper van parked near Joanas home?   I wonder why that was?  Especially as it vanished when joana did ... and turned up abandoned at Praia de Luz.

http://justice4mccannfam.5forum.biz/t287-joana-cipriano

http://amaralfiction2.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/joana-cipriano-goncalo-amarals.html



People rarely abandon such valuable assets as camper vans !       Think about it, John



john, IMHO, you have shown NOTHING at all that is solid to prove Leonors involvement in any way with the disappearance of Joana. 


AIMHO
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 06, 2017, 01:29:15 PM
Reply #67 on: Today at 02:20:14 PM Ā»
Some facts about Leonor Cipriano.
 
So Leonor saw people immediately before the torture and after the torture ... and believed that they were the torturers ... and maybe they were? . 

Did they introduce themselves and give her their names?  With all that was going on, was she focussing properly?   Poor battered, terrified and recently bereaved woman.
 
She had a bag over her head, which she initially said was blue but later changed it to saying  it was either ˜green or blue" ....../.  Big deal!!

What colour is this ? 

(https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.hCZ58oAXsB-OWLD23AzcdQEsEs&w=171&h=169&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&dpr=1.5&pid=1.7)

Blue?  Blue or Green?  Green ?   
 
 
 
 
So there was a dinner/ coffee break break for the torturers.   Could be classified as tortured once or could be classified as tortured twice.  Think about it.
 
Jeez, John how twee,
In a panicky situation like at her Court trial, she didnn't remember to add the clock ... and that is held against her?  What trite nonsense.  Poor womans head must have been turning cartwheels with all the lies coming out against her and the fear of what lay ahead.

 
Who says that Leonor confessed publicly in Court?  Was some trick used like we have witnessed on here in the past where people twist ones words to mean something else?   I would likie to read the actual Court transcript on that and even then fear can cause people to acquiesse.  She had plenty of reason for fear after all that torture, disgusting disinformation put out about her .... and knowing the case was largely based upon a tortured out so called confession.  This so called confession would not have happened if it had not been that she just had to escape the pain of that atrocious torture.
 

 
 
She saw PJ Inspectors before and after the beatings and could hear their voices, even when the bag was over her head.  She naturally thought that they had beaten her, and she was probably right.... but we dont know for certain.  Can you see people when your head is covered with a bag, John ?   Would you expect the people that you saw immediately before and after your torture to be the ones who did it?
 
The PJ Officers, DCCB, knew how to keep themselves "clean" by denying her the sight of them.  Cunning, cruel and devious bast**ds.   Well practiced at deceipt and cover up by the sound of things

 .
 


You have Amarals word for this do you?  If you don't mind my saying so, you are gullible.  He is a proven perjurer.

 
Her original statement was taken when she had just been tortured, and to get rid of the on-going pain she would agree to anything ... sign anything.   That is the nature of tortured out statements and the reason that they are not allowed in Court.
 
If you are used to twisting things, it is easy enough to re-arrange the sign in times anyway
 
 
 
There is a record of her being forced to kneel on glass ashtrays and also a record of her having the imprint of the glass ashtrays on her knees for a very long operiod afterwards.  Fancy having to kneel on a hard glass surface for a period, the pain from that alone would be excruciating.
 
I think the record was in the report sent to the ECHR, but it might have been somewhere else.   Please tell me if it was not in that report.

 
So Leonor pulled a piece of paper out of her purse?   Ermm ?  So what ?
 
The senior Prison officer could not have been believed by the Court because the senior Judge found that Leonor DID receive her bruises from Torture by the PJ. 
 
This begs the question, did the Prison officer lie or has it been twisted and misreported?
 
*If * he lied, could it be that the senior Prison Officer perchance had been treated like Leandro ?   Roughed up/tortured/ threatened a good bit? .... or even promised some reward? 
 
I doubt we will ever know, but based on photographs and medical evidence, the judge obviously found that Leonor had not fallen down the stairs.  That she had been tortured and that it happened under the interrogation of the PJ under Amarals command.
 
 
Did they introduce her ?  Maybe she didn't even know who the strange woman was.  Oh John, you are presuming things here
 
That was disgusting and a further black mark against the so called Justice and also the Judiciary in Portugal.  The case was held in Camera

... Unbelievable, it was hidden from the world, case in Camera. 
I wonder why that was? 

Can you answer that?



There was NOTHING SOLID TO CONVICT LEONOR (or Joao) on. 

Just
1)   an unsubstantiated and wild theory from the two crooked Officers in charge of the prosecutions case,
2)   a TORTURED out so called confession which would not stand up in the Courts of any civilized country,
3)   a tortured out witness statement
4)   Some blood in the fridge and on the walls where they butchered their pigs.  None of this was tested in any way and most probably was not even human but the blood of pigs.
5)   A laughable and rediculous video of Joao trying to stuff a blow up doll into a freezer / fridge.  Any druggie would do that fior a fix
etc,


But NO investigation of the white and brown camper van parked near Joanas home?   I wonder why that was?  Especially as it vanished when joana did ... and turned up abandoned at Praia de Luz.

http://justice4mccannfam.5forum.biz/t287-joana-cipriano

http://amaralfiction2.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/joana-cipriano-goncalo-amarals.html



People rarely abandon such valuable assets as camper vans !       Think about it, John



john, IMHO, you have shown NOTHING at all that is solid to prove Leonors involvement in any way with the disappearance of Joana.

What is self evident Sadie, is that no matter what is said to you, you won't accept it.

I will leave you to your stories.

Nothing you can say, will change the outcome of the Cipriano case.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 06, 2017, 01:57:40 PM
What is self evident Sadie, is that no matter what is said to you, you won't accept it.

I will leave you to your stories.

Nothing you can say, will change the outcome of the Cipriano case.

Please stephen I have asked you before ... Show me solid evidence that Joana is dead.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 06, 2017, 02:22:10 PM
Please stephen I have asked you before ... Show me solid evidence that Joana is dead.

How solid do you need it?  A rotting corpse in front of you??

eta. Even that was denied to Joana as her dismembered remains were eaten by the pigs and emptied down the sewers.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 06, 2017, 02:49:05 PM
Please stephen I have asked you before ... Show me solid evidence that Joana is dead.

Show me evidence that she is alive.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 06, 2017, 04:13:38 PM
How solid do you need it?  A rotting corpse in front of you??

eta. Even that was denied to Joana as her dismembered remains were eaten by the pigs and emptied down the sewers.
How very convenient for the prosecution  8(>((

Same sort of convenience as is supplied by Madeleine having been cremated in a coffin with an elderly woman.


Both ensure that no-one can disprove them, cos no remains there to check ... and .... both are from the ruminations of a cop who has committed perjury in the Courts of Portugal ... so is officially a proven liar


Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 06, 2017, 05:42:52 PM
How very convenient for the prosecution  8(>((

Same sort of convenience as is supplied by Madeleine having been cremated in a coffin with an elderly woman.


Both ensure that no-one can disprove them, cos no remains there to check ... and .... both are from the ruminations of a cop who has committed perjury in the Courts of Portugal ... so is officially a proven liar

The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that Joana met a dreadful fate and was not sold to strangers as her uncle originally tried to suggest.  His filmed confession was more than sufficient to bring a charge of murder against him.

Excuses are constantly made on behalf of Leonor and John Cipriano but the truth is that they are just pure evil.  John Cipriano previously served an attempted murder conviction and now he has served a sentence for killing his niece.  Why is this wretched character even allowed to walk the streets of Portugal?
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 06, 2017, 06:06:13 PM
Leonor Cipriano's final confession.

Joana: Mother says the uncle killed girl by beating her.

Leonor Cipriano altered testimony. Document will be delivered today at the Public Prosecutor's Office
2009-01-16   

By Clįudia Rosenbusch   

Confession of Leonor Cipriano.

Leonor Cipriano, the mother of Joana, the missing girl from Portimćo in September 2004, revealed yesterday at the Odemira Prison, that her brother , Joćo Cipriano, also sentenced to prison in the same process, was the sole author of death of the girl .

Leonor's lawyer, Marcos Aragćo Correia, said that the eight-page testimony in which the client tells "the true story" was delivered this morning at the Public Prosecutor's Office and will be provided to journalists. About 3 pm, at the door of the Faro Court.

According to the lawyer, who registered the testimony in writing, the client explains that her brother convinced her to deliver the girl to a couple, who would take her to Spain .

In return, the family would receive money and the promise of a better life for the child.

"Joao told her (Leonor) to be content because they were reliable people," reports the lawyer.

"When Joana left the house, the intention was to surrender her to the people and to simulate a kidnapping ," he continues, citing the client.

The moment Joana leaves the house, the uncle enters and collects some clothes of the girl, leaving soon with a bag.

The business of selling the child will not have gone as expected . "The people did not have the money agreed (a sum that Leonor did not reveal) and Joćo did not give them the girl."

It so happens that the young one "heard the conversation and told her uncle that she was going to tell everything." In this sequence, says the lawyer, quoting Leonor Cipriano, "Joao starts hitting the girl and ends up killing her by beating her ."

When he returned home he tried to hide the murder, but at the insistence of Leonor, who had detected bloodstains on her brother's pants, John eventually confessed to the crime.

Joćo hid her body in a place close to home and the next day buried her "up there for the hills of Figueira," he says, quoting Joćo Cipriano's phrase.

In the face of her brother's "threats," she decided to forget and say that she knew nothing.

The confession of her involvement in her death was made "under torture" when she was heard by PJ inspectors, the lawyer said.

The decision to only tell the 'truth' is justified by 'the confidence' that Leonor made with the new lawyer, as well as the realization that she had nothing to fear. "At the time of the crime, the brother threatened her saying that if she told everything, she would also be arrested, but she is already in prison and so cannot be any worse," claims Marcos Correia.

With this revelation, the defense of Leonor intends : "to restart the searches and recover the body of Joana, make the funeral and ask the court to find out who is the couple who tried to buy the child."

The request for review of the sentence will await the outcome of the process in which five PJ inspectors respond for assaults on Leonor Cipriano during an interrogation.

The extraordinary appeal of sentence review, Which is always upheld by the High Court of Justice, may be lodged, in particular, in the case of new evidence which would upset the justice of a conviction or where a subsequent judgment considers that the conviction resulted from the use of prohibited evidence. Evidence obtained through torture shall be prohibited. Judgment review may imply a repetition of judgment .

It is recalled that in November 2005, Leonor and Joćo Cipriano were respectively sentenced to 20 years and four months imprisonment and 19 years and two months respectively.

In May 2008, the Supreme Court reduced the sentences to 16 years and eight months in prison.

http://www.tvi24.iol.pt/sociedade/justica/joana-mae-diz-que-tio-matou-menina-a-pancada
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: misty on August 06, 2017, 09:01:39 PM
Human hair and bone fragments were found in the pig sty.  Human blood was found on the wall where the girl was assaulted, on the floor, on shoes and in the fridge. The girl was seen by a neighbour going home.  Her shoes were found in the house.

Please provide a cite for that with the DNA analysis in the forensic report.

Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 07, 2017, 03:00:52 AM
Please provide a cite for that with the DNA analysis in the forensic report.

Its all already on the forum if you care to look it up.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Benice on August 07, 2017, 04:33:30 PM
Human hair and bone fragments were found in the pig sty.  Human blood was found on the wall where the girl was assaulted, on the floor, on shoes and in the fridge. The girl was seen by a neighbour going home.  Her shoes were found in the house.

If human hair and bone fragments were large enough to be found - then there should have been no problem in extracting DNA evidence from them.   That would have been the obvious action for any police force to take at that point in a murder investigation - as it would virtually close the case.      So when was that testing done and what were the results?     I haven't been able to find them - but obviously that does not mean they are not there.

Could you provide them please Angelo.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on August 07, 2017, 08:35:55 PM
If human hair and bone fragments were large enough to be found - then there should have been no problem in extracting DNA evidence from them.   That would have been the obvious action for any police force to take at that point in a murder investigation - as it would virtually close the case.      So when was that testing done and what were the results?     I haven't been able to find them - but obviously that does not mean they are not there.

Could you provide them please Angelo.

All they were able to establish was that the samples were human, the chemical contamination prevented DNA analysis.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Benice on August 08, 2017, 09:26:08 AM
All they were able to establish was that the samples were human, the chemical contamination prevented DNA analysis.

Could you (or Angelo)  point me to the forensic report which confirms 'chemical contamination'  please John.   I ask because it sounds so unlikely to me that LC and her brother were so clever they were able to take action designed to thwart forensic testing so very successfully - if that is what is being claimed.   For example what was the chemical contamination on the shoes which prevented blood found on them from being identified by DNA testing?

Finding human hair and blood where humans live and move around cannot be regarded as evidence of murder in any way shape or form IMO, but I am interested to know how bone fragments could be identified as human - but could not be identified as belonging to Joana.

Did DNA testing actually take place?


Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 18, 2017, 02:37:08 AM
Could you (or Angelo)  point me to the forensic report which confirms 'chemical contamination'  please John.   I ask because it sounds so unlikely to me that LC and her brother were so clever they were able to take action designed to thwart forensic testing so very successfully - if that is what is being claimed.   For example what was the chemical contamination on the shoes which prevented blood found on them from being identified by DNA testing?

Finding human hair and blood where humans live and move around cannot be regarded as evidence of murder in any way shape or form IMO, but I am interested to know how bone fragments could be identified as human - but could not be identified as belonging to Joana.

Did DNA testing actually take place?

There is a very detailed explanation of all this in the appeal court transcript.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: misty on August 18, 2017, 06:45:02 PM
There is a very detailed explanation of all this in the appeal court transcript.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2969.msg106091#msg106091
"Gonēalo Amaral, Coordinating Inspector PJ (Jan 2007): "In the first statements given to the GNR, the first agency to arrive, it was a badly told story. There were various contradictions amongst certain people, witnesses, who were part of the family group where Joana lived. Based on these contradictions, there arose at a certain time the need for a new interrogation of these individuals, with all these witnesses, at the same time, at the police headquarters, such that they couldn't confer between themselves, and with the principal objective to understand whether the girl had, or had not, returned home. From there, it was proved that the girl had returned home. That is, it was a lie, there was a simulation of a disappearance. From there, it was necessary to determine what had happened." "

Sounds eerily familiar, doesn't it?

Can you link the part about the bone fragments in the pig pen please, Angelo?
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on August 18, 2017, 09:08:43 PM
All they were able to establish was that the samples were human, the chemical contamination prevented DNA analysis.

They didn't even find out if it was pig or human, did they, John?   Please provide a bonafide cite if I am wrong.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on August 23, 2017, 11:11:39 PM
They didn't even find out if it was pig or human, did they, John?   Please provide a bonafide cite if I am wrong.

The blood traces found on the wall, the door jam, the floor, the shoes and the fridge were HUMAN.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Benice on August 24, 2017, 04:40:24 PM
The blood traces found on the wall, the door jam, the floor, the shoes and the fridge were HUMAN.

Surely if it was found in large enough quantities to be forensically proved to be human blood - then surely it could also have been DNA tested.  T

The fact that there was no DNA evidence speaks volumes IMO.

Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on August 26, 2017, 02:03:42 AM
Surely if it was found in large enough quantities to be forensically proved to be human blood - then surely it could also have been DNA tested. 

The fact that there was no DNA evidence speaks volumes IMO.

One would have thought so. Seems the chemicals used to clean the surfaces impeded successful DNA testing.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: misty on September 15, 2017, 12:58:49 AM
https://www.noticiasaominuto.com/pais/860930/caso-joana-algo-aconteceu-mas-aquela-miuda-nao-foi-morta-em-casa

Thirteen years later, the mystery surrounding the disappearance of little Joana, in the village of Figueira, remains. The News to the Minute spoke to two neighbors of the Cipriano family and the child's stepfather, testimonies that help rebuild a case that left deep marks on those who lived it closely.


The day of September 12, 2004 will hardly be erased from the national memory, particularly from the inhabitants of Figueira village, in the municipality of Portimćo.

Today marks 13 years since that fateful Sunday, when Joana Cipriano disappeared at the age of eight, around 9:00 pm, after going shopping for a coffee near her house.

After these 13 years, a lot of ink ran on what really happened that night, in court, in the coffee talks, in the media. It was assumed that Joana might have been sold, or at least that was the original intention. It was also assumed that she might have been kidnapped.

The truth is that the body never came to appear.

However, her mother, Leonor Cipriano, and her uncle, Joćo Cipriano, would admit to having killed Joana. There is a thesis that the body was cut and fed to the pigs. There is a suspicion that Joana has caught her mother and uncle having sex and that she has been killed because of it.

Leonor and Joćo Cipriano were sentenced to 16 years and eight months in prison for homicide and concealment in 2006. In November of the previous year, they had been sentenced to 20 years and four months and 19 years and two months in prison, respectively, but penalty was eventually reduced.

Today, in the village of Figueira, although the case is closed by Justice, doubts and contradictions about what will have actually happened that night persist.

Ophelia Zeverino, who at the time was working in a café near Joana's house, was the last person to see the child before her disappearance. To the News to the Minute, says that, in the night of 12 of September of 2004, the small Joana went to its establishment to buy "a package of milk and two cans of conserved".

The only thing strange, then, was that the girl did not ask about her daughter, something she always did - besides going to the same school, in the same class, they were friends and they played together regularly. Later, Joana's stepfather, Leandro Silva, accompanied by another friend appeared at the café.

Leandro, then the companion of Leonor Cipriano, says that on the night of his disappearance he was not at home, but in Portimćo. She left home at noon and only returned shortly after 9:00 pm, after Joana disappeared. I heard about the case through Joćo Cipriano, a presence he says was unusual at home.

The enigmatic presence of Joćo Cipriano

According to Leandro Silva, Joana's uncle had never been to Figueira to visit his family. In fact, he himself states that he does not know "even how he discovered the door". "It was the first time he [Joćo Cipriano] appeared there at home. I do not even know how. Suddenly he appeared to me on Saturday at about 05:00 in the morning. That night I even slept on the sofa. " From Leonor Cipriano, he says, he never got any justification for the sudden appearance of his brother.

Jślia, fictitious name, neighbor of Leonor Cipriano, reiterates that, before the case, had never seen the uncle of Joan. "I just remember seeing him in the paper. I'd never seen him around, never heard of him. I only recognized him after starting to see him in newspapers and magazines, "he says.
Different version has Ofélia Zeverino, also she lives in the same street, that counts to have seen Joćo Cipriano "five or six times" in the coffee, including to "drink a beer" with Leandro. "[Joćo Cipriano] came here often, at lunchtime, to drink coffee with his sister. One thing that struck me in court statements was that Leandro stated that his brother-in-law never came here. More than five or six times I saw Joao and his sister. I came to see them [Leandro and Joćo] together, to drink a beer. "

At the trial, Joćo Cipriano confessed to the crime. At the time, he admitted having beaten and murdered the child. Then, according to his version, he cut it and, with the complicity of Leonor Cipriano, hid the body, which was later fed to the pigs.

Following this version, the reason that caused the uncle and the mother to kill Joana remains quite confused. Leonor Cipriano even admitted that at the origin of the crime was a failed attempt to sell her daughter to a childless couple, who would take her abroad. The proposal, as she herself stated, was based on her brother. However, the plan would have gone badly and Joanna would have found out, so the two brothers eventually killed her so she would not tell what happened. Another version conveyed was that the child will have caught mother and uncle having sex.

"Joana never complained about anything"

In Figueira, Joana Cipriano is remembered as a child "super sweet and calm", "a girl very oriented, calm, super educated". They say she "had conversations that looked like an adult."

Julia says that one day, at the request of Leonor Cipriano, who did not have that day to go to Portimćo, she took little Joana to the dentist. Then they passed a hypermarket, back to school, and Joana said she still had no backpack. Jślia decided to offer her the pack immediately, despite the child's refusal, which eventually gave in and accepted her. "After giving her the backpack, she grabbed me and gave me two kisses and thanked her," she says.

Like Jślia's son, Joana had a habit of playing regularly with Ophelia Zeverino's daughter, who came several times to pick her up at school. The three friends lunched together, and none of these mothers ever suspected that Joana was in trouble or in any danger.

But after all this time, the way Ophelia looks back gains another dimension. "Now, after what has happened, I begin to realize that it conveyed any sadness. Maybe a girl for fear of something, "she confides. However, he maintains the idea that the Cipriano family had no financial problems since they even used to spend some money on their coffee. "Economic difficulties? I think not. Joana never complained about anything.

The same thesis is defended by Leandro Silva, who guarantees that "there was never anything lacking at home". When she began to take care of Joana, the girl was only three. The relationship with Leonor Cipriano, native of the Alentejo, began in 1999. They met in Silves, lived in Porches, parish of the county of Lagoa, and eventually reached Figueira, since Leandro's mother had scrap in the area, in the village of Senhora do Verde, where he then went to work.

When he speaks of Joana, Leandro remembers her as "her cub". "She always slept beside me. Often, when I slept on the couch, I would wake up in the morning, covered up. She was the one who covered me. She was the one who treated the brothers. It was my baby, "she recalls, smiling.

Today, Leandro left his work in the scrap and works as a bricklayer and plumber, with a contract of employment, in a firm. He lives in Mexilhoeira Grande, about two kilometers from Figueira.

He managed to rebuild his life, though it was difficult, as he admits, since, after Joana disappeared, many suspicions came over him. However, he says, no one in the village "looks at him from the side." "On the contrary, those who looked at me aside, nowadays, are the ones that give me the most strength. In Mexilhoeira, everyone supports me and I do not suffer as much. "

"Something happened there, but that girl was not killed at home"

Julia says that on the night of Joana's disappearance, she was at home when she heard Leonor Cyprian calling for her daughter, after she disappeared. It was not until the following night that the child had not yet returned home.

Ophelia Zeverino, who, remember, was the last person to see Joana, as soon as she left the cafe around midnight, went immediately to meet the Cipriano family to see if there were any news yet, since Leonor , Joćo and Leandro went to the café about 22:00 to ask about the child's whereabouts.

What aroused Ophelia's particular apprehension was the "calmness" of Joana's mother, a situation also confirmed by Julia: "I thought she was a bit too calm. As a mother, if my daughter disappeared, I would not be as calm as she was. But everyone reacts in their own way, "he says.

At that time, as the family had not yet alerted the authorities, Ophelia offered to contact the GNR, which she did immediately, with the family's endorsement, which reiterates that she did not do so because she did not have a balance on her cell phone. Nevertheless, he does not hide his strangeness from the coldness of the Cipriano family.

What happened next is known. Mother and uncle admitted the crime, with versions that have been changing over the years, although they have never denied the murder of the child. However, this is a thesis that does not convince many of the residents of Figueira, even because, they acknowledge, Leonor Cipriano had a very close relationship with the daughter and treated her affectionately. "In our view, she [Leonor Ciprinano] was very affectionate with her children," says Ophelia, a vision shared by Leandro Silva. "I know that Leonor liked the girl very much."

Not by exonerating Leonor Cipriano or putting aside his involvement in the disappearance of the child, the thesis of abduction or sale is seen, by Ophelia and Leandro, as most likely. "Dead? No. Now that she has a business with her brother and has sold the girl ... I still believe that, "says Leandro. "As for me, the girl was taken that night. Something happened there, but that girl was not killed at home, "Ophelia reiterates.

The neighbor, who then worked in the cafe, goes further and points the finger at the Judicial Police, especially at Lisbon. "For me, the work of the Judiciary [Police] was a complete failure. These two people were arrested based on what? In nothing. Where are the traces? Where is the girl? There is nothing. Do you know why they were arrested? Because they did not have money, "he says. To Ophelia, Joana never arrived at home. Proof of that? The milk carton and the preserves she sold to the girl were never found.

Thirteen years after that tragic night, which no one in the village will ever forget, are more questions and contradictions than answers. The truth is that life in Figueira, despite the return to normal, was never the same and residents, when they remember the days that followed the disappearance of Joan, do not hide the discomfort. Like Ophelia Zeverino, who spent sleepless nights. "For many nights, it seemed like I heard Joan calling for my daughter. I've been sleepless nights because of it. How could anyone disappear on this street? "

===================================================================


Something for the cynics to chew over.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on September 15, 2017, 12:59:18 PM
https://www.noticiasaominuto.com/pais/860930/caso-joana-algo-aconteceu-mas-aquela-miuda-nao-foi-morta-em-casa

Thirteen years later, the mystery surrounding the disappearance of little Joana, in the village of Figueira, remains. The News to the Minute spoke to two neighbors of the Cipriano family and the child's stepfather, testimonies that help rebuild a case that left deep marks on those who lived it closely.


The day of September 12, 2004 will hardly be erased from the national memory, particularly from the inhabitants of Figueira village, in the municipality of Portimćo.

Today marks 13 years since that fateful Sunday, when Joana Cipriano disappeared at the age of eight, around 9:00 pm, after going shopping for a coffee near her house.

After these 13 years, a lot of ink ran on what really happened that night, in court, in the coffee talks, in the media. It was assumed that Joana might have been sold, or at least that was the original intention. It was also assumed that she might have been kidnapped.

The truth is that the body never came to appear.

However, her mother, Leonor Cipriano, and her uncle, Joćo Cipriano, would admit to having killed Joana. There is a thesis that the body was cut and fed to the pigs. There is a suspicion that Joana has caught her mother and uncle having sex and that she has been killed because of it.

Leonor and Joćo Cipriano were sentenced to 16 years and eight months in prison for homicide and concealment in 2006. In November of the previous year, they had been sentenced to 20 years and four months and 19 years and two months in prison, respectively, but penalty was eventually reduced.

Today, in the village of Figueira, although the case is closed by Justice, doubts and contradictions about what will have actually happened that night persist.

Ophelia Zeverino, who at the time was working in a café near Joana's house, was the last person to see the child before her disappearance. To the News to the Minute, says that, in the night of 12 of September of 2004, the small Joana went to its establishment to buy "a package of milk and two cans of conserved".

The only thing strange, then, was that the girl did not ask about her daughter, something she always did - besides going to the same school, in the same class, they were friends and they played together regularly. Later, Joana's stepfather, Leandro Silva, accompanied by another friend appeared at the café.

Leandro, then the companion of Leonor Cipriano, says that on the night of his disappearance he was not at home, but in Portimćo. She left home at noon and only returned shortly after 9:00 pm, after Joana disappeared. I heard about the case through Joćo Cipriano, a presence he says was unusual at home.

The enigmatic presence of Joćo Cipriano

According to Leandro Silva, Joana's uncle had never been to Figueira to visit his family. In fact, he himself states that he does not know "even how he discovered the door". "It was the first time he [Joćo Cipriano] appeared there at home. I do not even know how. Suddenly he appeared to me on Saturday at about 05:00 in the morning. That night I even slept on the sofa. " From Leonor Cipriano, he says, he never got any justification for the sudden appearance of his brother.

Jślia, fictitious name, neighbor of Leonor Cipriano, reiterates that, before the case, had never seen the uncle of Joan. "I just remember seeing him in the paper. I'd never seen him around, never heard of him. I only recognized him after starting to see him in newspapers and magazines, "he says.
Different version has Ofélia Zeverino, also she lives in the same street, that counts to have seen Joćo Cipriano "five or six times" in the coffee, including to "drink a beer" with Leandro. "[Joćo Cipriano] came here often, at lunchtime, to drink coffee with his sister. One thing that struck me in court statements was that Leandro stated that his brother-in-law never came here. More than five or six times I saw Joao and his sister. I came to see them [Leandro and Joćo] together, to drink a beer. "

At the trial, Joćo Cipriano confessed to the crime. At the time, he admitted having beaten and murdered the child. Then, according to his version, he cut it and, with the complicity of Leonor Cipriano, hid the body, which was later fed to the pigs.

Following this version, the reason that caused the uncle and the mother to kill Joana remains quite confused. Leonor Cipriano even admitted that at the origin of the crime was a failed attempt to sell her daughter to a childless couple, who would take her abroad. The proposal, as she herself stated, was based on her brother. However, the plan would have gone badly and Joanna would have found out, so the two brothers eventually killed her so she would not tell what happened. Another version conveyed was that the child will have caught mother and uncle having sex.

"Joana never complained about anything"

In Figueira, Joana Cipriano is remembered as a child "super sweet and calm", "a girl very oriented, calm, super educated". They say she "had conversations that looked like an adult."

Julia says that one day, at the request of Leonor Cipriano, who did not have that day to go to Portimćo, she took little Joana to the dentist. Then they passed a hypermarket, back to school, and Joana said she still had no backpack. Jślia decided to offer her the pack immediately, despite the child's refusal, which eventually gave in and accepted her. "After giving her the backpack, she grabbed me and gave me two kisses and thanked her," she says.

Like Jślia's son, Joana had a habit of playing regularly with Ophelia Zeverino's daughter, who came several times to pick her up at school. The three friends lunched together, and none of these mothers ever suspected that Joana was in trouble or in any danger.

But after all this time, the way Ophelia looks back gains another dimension. "Now, after what has happened, I begin to realize that it conveyed any sadness. Maybe a girl for fear of something, "she confides. However, he maintains the idea that the Cipriano family had no financial problems since they even used to spend some money on their coffee. "Economic difficulties? I think not. Joana never complained about anything.

The same thesis is defended by Leandro Silva, who guarantees that "there was never anything lacking at home". When she began to take care of Joana, the girl was only three. The relationship with Leonor Cipriano, native of the Alentejo, began in 1999. They met in Silves, lived in Porches, parish of the county of Lagoa, and eventually reached Figueira, since Leandro's mother had scrap in the area, in the village of Senhora do Verde, where he then went to work.

When he speaks of Joana, Leandro remembers her as "her cub". "She always slept beside me. Often, when I slept on the couch, I would wake up in the morning, covered up. She was the one who covered me. She was the one who treated the brothers. It was my baby, "she recalls, smiling.

Today, Leandro left his work in the scrap and works as a bricklayer and plumber, with a contract of employment, in a firm. He lives in Mexilhoeira Grande, about two kilometers from Figueira.

He managed to rebuild his life, though it was difficult, as he admits, since, after Joana disappeared, many suspicions came over him. However, he says, no one in the village "looks at him from the side." "On the contrary, those who looked at me aside, nowadays, are the ones that give me the most strength. In Mexilhoeira, everyone supports me and I do not suffer as much. "

"Something happened there, but that girl was not killed at home"

Julia says that on the night of Joana's disappearance, she was at home when she heard Leonor Cyprian calling for her daughter, after she disappeared. It was not until the following night that the child had not yet returned home.

Ophelia Zeverino, who, remember, was the last person to see Joana, as soon as she left the cafe around midnight, went immediately to meet the Cipriano family to see if there were any news yet, since Leonor , Joćo and Leandro went to the café about 22:00 to ask about the child's whereabouts.

What aroused Ophelia's particular apprehension was the "calmness" of Joana's mother, a situation also confirmed by Julia: "I thought she was a bit too calm. As a mother, if my daughter disappeared, I would not be as calm as she was. But everyone reacts in their own way, "he says.

At that time, as the family had not yet alerted the authorities, Ophelia offered to contact the GNR, which she did immediately, with the family's endorsement, which reiterates that she did not do so because she did not have a balance on her cell phone. Nevertheless, he does not hide his strangeness from the coldness of the Cipriano family.

What happened next is known. Mother and uncle admitted the crime, with versions that have been changing over the years, although they have never denied the murder of the child. However, this is a thesis that does not convince many of the residents of Figueira, even because, they acknowledge, Leonor Cipriano had a very close relationship with the daughter and treated her affectionately. "In our view, she [Leonor Ciprinano] was very affectionate with her children," says Ophelia, a vision shared by Leandro Silva. "I know that Leonor liked the girl very much."

Not by exonerating Leonor Cipriano or putting aside his involvement in the disappearance of the child, the thesis of abduction or sale is seen, by Ophelia and Leandro, as most likely. "Dead? No. Now that she has a business with her brother and has sold the girl ... I still believe that, "says Leandro. "As for me, the girl was taken that night. Something happened there, but that girl was not killed at home, "Ophelia reiterates.

The neighbor, who then worked in the cafe, goes further and points the finger at the Judicial Police, especially at Lisbon. "For me, the work of the Judiciary [Police] was a complete failure. These two people were arrested based on what? In nothing. Where are the traces? Where is the girl? There is nothing. Do you know why they were arrested? Because they did not have money, "he says. To Ophelia, Joana never arrived at home. Proof of that? The milk carton and the preserves she sold to the girl were never found.

Thirteen years after that tragic night, which no one in the village will ever forget, are more questions and contradictions than answers. The truth is that life in Figueira, despite the return to normal, was never the same and residents, when they remember the days that followed the disappearance of Joan, do not hide the discomfort. Like Ophelia Zeverino, who spent sleepless nights. "For many nights, it seemed like I heard Joan calling for my daughter. I've been sleepless nights because of it. How could anyone disappear on this street? "

===================================================================


Something for the cynics to chew over.
Well done misty for finding this

I have a deep concern about this case as most of you know.  Interesting and good  that villagers in Figueira also have concerns.  So much about this case does not hold together ... and there was something in that article which linked with other things, few only unhappily, I have discovered.   Sorry I cant share them.

I just wish someone would start a group "Justice for the Ciprianos" as I am physically unable to do that.

None of us know for sure what happened to Joana but when it went to Court, there certainly was NO JUSTICE in that case,

It was a huge Miscarriage of Justice


I believe that I have two pointers that Joana is still alive, but as I cant be 100% sure, I cant progress them


Ermm, IMO 8)-))), of course
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on September 26, 2017, 11:46:54 PM
No need to chew over anything, both Leonor and Joao Cipriano were guilty.  Despite initially claiming that she killed the child accidentally, Leonor Cipriano was complicit in a coverup aimed at protecting her brother who had already served a prison sentence for attempted murder.  Joao Cipriano later admitted killing the child in what he claimed was a botched attempt to sell her to foreigners.  He knows where her remains are buried yet refuses to reveal the location, he also got a lesser sentence than his sister, that for me is the real injustice.  Joao Cipriano got a very light sentence considering his violent past, yet despite the murder of his niece can now walk the streets of Portugal a free man.

Is that really justice?
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: misty on September 27, 2017, 12:42:15 AM
No need to chew over anything, both Leonor and Joao Cipriano were guilty.  Despite initially claiming that she killed the child accidentally, Leonor Cipriano was complicit in a coverup aimed at protecting her brother who had already served a prison sentence for attempted murder.  Joao Cipriano later admitted killing the child in what he claimed was a botched attempt to sell her to foreigners.  He knows where her remains are buried yet refuses to reveal the location, he also got a lesser sentence than his sister, that for me is the real injustice.  Joao Cipriano got a very light sentence considering his violent past, yet despite the murder of his niece can now walk the streets of Portugal a free man.

Is that really justice?

I find it obscene that one of the men who was probably responsible for torturing the Cipriano's in custody & is now facing various kidnapping, armed robbery & fraud crimes is still walking the streets & sitting on sofas in TV studios denouncing various people attached to FC Sporting & Benfica. But that's justice, Portuguese style, for you.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: misty on October 06, 2017, 06:12:14 PM
Whilst searching for something unconnected, I came across this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2014/newsspec_7617/index.html
The Reykjavik Confessions
The mystery of why six people admitted roles in two murders - when they couldn't remember anything about the crimes.


It's an interesting read covering false memory & policing methods not dissimilar to those in the Cipriano case, including a reconstruction of a death akin to Joao's.
Whilst the original disappearances occurred over 40 years ago & modern policing has the benefit of enhanced science/technology, the tendency of certain police to try & make any evidence fit a crime has sustained.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Carana on October 14, 2017, 12:05:34 PM
Whilst searching for something unconnected, I came across this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2014/newsspec_7617/index.html
The Reykjavik Confessions
The mystery of why six people admitted roles in two murders - when they couldn't remember anything about the crimes.


It's an interesting read covering false memory & policing methods not dissimilar to those in the Cipriano case, including a reconstruction of a death akin to Joao's.
Whilst the original disappearances occurred over 40 years ago & modern policing has the benefit of enhanced science/technology, the tendency of certain police to try & make any evidence fit a crime has sustained.

Thanks, Misty, I'll read that with interest.

I have still never got to the bottom of the conditions of Leonor's initial interrogation...

Just because she wasn't battered black and blue and assessed by medics in that initial one doesn't mean that she wasn't coerced via other means (sleep deprivation, bluff techniques...).

Some people seem to readily accept that the same police who did later batter her treated her to coffee and cream cakes during the first one.


Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on October 18, 2017, 02:09:17 AM
Sceptics seem to have difficulty with the fact that in common with every other country in the world Portugal is not quite the idyll they wish to portray.

There has been denial that burglaries occur; there has been denial that home invasions involving assaults on British girls happened.

I had never heard of Costa prior to recently catching up on old Portuguese newspaper reports: I found it an interesting read when bearing in mind the cases with which I am familiar.

Portugal has its problems and its killers just as ever other country in the world has.  It also has its fair share of domestic disputes and family related abductions.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 18, 2017, 07:47:41 AM
Portugal has its problems and its killers just as ever other country in the world has.  It also has its fair share of domestic disputes and family related abductions.

Cipriano being a classic example.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 18, 2017, 08:08:20 AM
Cipriano being a classic example.

some feel cipriano may well be a miscarriage of justice...as has been discussed extensively before. One of the three judges at her trial thought her to be innocent
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 18, 2017, 11:52:10 AM
some feel cipriano may well be a miscarriage of justice...as has been discussed extensively before. One of the three judges at her trial thought her to be innocent

That's not entirely true, the third judge felt there was reasonable doubt as to Leonor's actual involvement, innocent is not a word I would use where the Ciprianos are concerned.  They are both guilty to a greater or lesser degree imho.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: misty on October 18, 2017, 01:51:17 PM
That's not entirely true, the third judge felt there was reasonable doubt as to Leonor's actual involvement, innocent is not a word I would use where the Ciprianos are concerned.  They are both guilty to a greater or lesser degree imho.

Joao had reportedly only arrived at Leonor's house on 12th September, the same day she went missing. I find it really hard to believe that Joana's death occurred as described within such a short period of time.

However, perhaps we should pause to give thought to all the lives lost & homes destroyed by the fires which have raged in Portugal again this summer. Some of the scenes shown on ITV news last night were distressing.

While the corrupt politicians siphon illicit gains into their Swiss bank accounts, there are insufficient funds to provide the necessary emergency services the victims need.
Let us hope that the mutterings of fires being deliberately started for corrupt commercial gain are not true.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on October 18, 2017, 11:59:08 PM
That's not entirely true, the third judge felt there was reasonable doubt as to Leonor's actual involvement, innocent is not a word I would use where the Ciprianos are concerned.  They are both guilty to a greater or lesser degree imho.
In your opinion, maybe BUT not in the opinion of many, who thanks to torture and other unproven things saw a potentially great Miscarriage of Justice.

Please could you show us where the third judge only thought that there was reasonable doubt, because I thought that he made it plain that he was not happy with the verdict.  A cite would be gratefully received

TY
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on October 19, 2017, 12:07:29 AM
In your opinion, maybe BUT not in the opinion of many, who thanks to torture and other unproven things saw a potentially great Miscarriage of Justice.

Please could you show us where the third judge only thought that there was reasonable doubt, because I thought that he made it plain that he was not happy with the verdict.  A cite would be gratefully received

TY

The dissenting Judge was unhappy with the verdict BUT he never stated that he thought Leonora Cipriano innocent, that's the big difference. At the very least, Leonora Cipriano was guilty of complicity in a crime and attempting to pervert the course of justice.  By is own admission, her brother John admitted to murder and disposing of a body in an attempt to avoid justice.  Both are guilty of staging an abduction.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on October 19, 2017, 12:14:05 AM
The dissenting Judge was unhappy with the verdict BUT he never stated that he thought Leonora Cipriano innocent, that's the big difference. At the very least, Leonora Cipriano was guilty of complicity in a crime and attempting to pervert the course of justice.
Do you John/Angelo have a cite cos i really thought that I had seen that the one Judge was very adverse to the verdict.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on October 19, 2017, 12:17:26 AM
Do you John/Angelo have a cite cos i really thought that I had seen that the one Judge was very adverse to the verdict.

He didn't like the verdict certainly but at no time did any Judge state that she was innocent.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 19, 2017, 07:40:14 AM
some feel cipriano may well be a miscarriage of justice...as has been discussed extensively before. One of the three judges at her trial thought her to be innocent

Please provide a cite.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 19, 2017, 08:49:12 AM
The dissenting Judge was unhappy with the verdict BUT he never stated that he thought Leonora Cipriano innocent, that's the big difference. At the very least, Leonora Cipriano was guilty of complicity in a crime and attempting to pervert the course of justice.  By is own admission, her brother John admitted to murder and disposing of a body in an attempt to avoid justice.  Both are guilty of staging an abduction.

that is an admission that there may have been a miscarriage of justice...imo
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on October 19, 2017, 11:25:09 AM
that is an admission that there may have been a miscarriage of justice...imo

You could of course argue that Leonora Cipriano was guilty of murder by virtue of it being a joint enterprise crime.  My own view is that she tried to cover up for her brother by taking the blame initially and that is why she 'confessed' before the examining magistrate.  She knew that if Joćo went down for murder after having served a sentence for attempted murder, that he might never see freedom again for many decades.  Isn't it ironic however that Leonora ended up with the greater sentence and Joćo has seen freedom already?
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Carana on October 19, 2017, 07:42:03 PM
You could of course argue that Leonora Cipriano was guilty of murder by virtue of it being a joint enterprise crime.  My own view is that she tried to cover up for her brother by taking the blame initially and that is why she 'confessed' before the examining magistrate.  She knew that if Joćo went down for murder after having served a sentence for attempted murder, that he might never see freedom again for many decades.  Isn't it ironic however that Leonora ended up with the greater sentence and Joćo has seen freedom already?

One could also argue that the circumstances surrounding her first interrogation aren't very clear, either. If the entire interrogation sessions (both formal and, erm, informal)  had been recorded and we were able to watch them, perhaps I'd be less suspicious. The same goes for Joćo (all his interrogations and anything leading up to and including that bizarre reconstruction).

Anyone in authority can say anything if there's no accountability.

Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on October 25, 2017, 06:02:48 PM
One could also argue that the circumstances surrounding her first interrogation aren't very clear, either. If the entire interrogation sessions (both formal and, erm, informal)  had been recorded and we were able to watch them, perhaps I'd be less suspicious. The same goes for Joćo (all his interrogations and anything leading up to and including that bizarre reconstruction).

Anyone in authority can say anything if there's no accountability.

They were most likely recorded but as I keep saying, the police have at their disposal a hell of a lot more info than is ever released to the public.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Carana on October 26, 2017, 05:04:28 PM
They were most likely recorded but as I keep saying, the police have at their disposal a hell of a lot more info than is ever released to the public.

If so, none of it was released at trial though, was it? Aside from that somewhat bizarre "reconstruction" that the defense apparently never thought would be presented. Not that I'm entirely sure how much time they actually spent on the case.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Carana on October 26, 2017, 05:09:04 PM
They were most likely recorded but as I keep saying, the police have at their disposal a hell of a lot more info than is ever released to the public.

Have you ever found any evidence of that, John?
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on October 26, 2017, 05:39:23 PM
Have you ever found any evidence of that, John?

Standard procedure in any formal criminal interview which might lead to a prosecution.  Recordings are made so as to protect the interest of the accused as well as those conducting the interview.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Carana on October 31, 2017, 02:08:50 PM
Standard procedure in any formal criminal interview which might lead to a prosecution.  Recordings are made so as to protect the interest of the accused as well as those conducting the interview.

Mandatory or ecommended procedure NOW.

I haven't found any recorded cctv evidence of either suspects' time in custody - either formal or informal.

Have you?
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on November 17, 2017, 10:05:59 PM
Mandatory or ecommended procedure NOW.

I haven't found any recorded cctv evidence of either suspects' time in custody - either formal or informal.

Have you?

Recordings of interviews have been an integral part of police interviews for many years, they are seldom put into the public domain.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2017, 04:32:00 AM
They were most likely recorded but as I keep saying, the police have at their disposal a hell of a lot more info than is ever released to the public.

You are looking to trust an investigating team that were found guilty of torture and lying by their own court...i would say that is reasonable to be suspect of anything they say
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: misty on November 19, 2017, 04:48:26 PM
Had there been any "before & after" video footage of Leonor after she met with her "accident on the stairs" during the interview, it would have been used in court by those fine upstanding PJ officers as proof of the nature of any injuries sustained to her face. IMO.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Carana on November 20, 2017, 06:00:14 PM
Had there been any "before & after" video footage of Leonor after she met with her "accident on the stairs" during the interview, it would have been used in court by those fine upstanding PJ officers as proof of the nature of any injuries sustained to her face. IMO.

I'm interested in what actually happened during her initial interrogation. I find the facts, or rather the lack of them, quite intriguing.

Some people are convinced that she must be guilty because the outcome was that she apparently signed a statement at the end of it "confessing" to an accident and repeated the contents to a judge.

Was this interrogation filmed?
Was she accompanied by a lawyer at all times?
How long did the sessions last?
Was she given food / water / toilet access / time to sleep durin this time?
Were bluff techniques used?
Was she subjected to now largely descredited interrogation techniques to force a confession, or not?

Did anyone ever raise this in court?

Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Eleanor on November 20, 2017, 07:02:05 PM
I'm interested in what actually happened during her initial interrogation. I find the facts, or rather the lack of them, quite intriguing.

Some people are convinced that she must be guilty because the outcome was that she apparently signed a statement at the end of it "confessing" to an accident and repeated the contents to a judge.

Was this interrogation filmed?
Was she accompanied by a lawyer at all times?
How long did the sessions last?
Was she given food / water / toilet access / time to sleep durin this time?

Were bluff techniques used?
Was she subjected to now largely descredited interrogation techniques to force a confession, or not?

Did anyone ever raise this in court?

No.  no one ever did.  It was a travesty of justice.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Carana on November 21, 2017, 01:30:26 AM
One or both may be guilty.

However, the reliance on "confessions" in dubious conditions and the lack of supporting evidence of the alleged scenario really make me wonder.

I'm perfectly aware that some people think I'm biased because some people were also involved in another case, but I really have tried to examine this case separately (not always easy). I'm also aware that some also assume that they must be guilty due a knee-jerk reaction.

If people just stand back and examine the facts of this case... I really don't understand how it ever got to court in a civilised society.

What influence did the manifestly pro-PJ tabloid media have?
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on November 21, 2017, 02:24:27 AM
I'm interested in what actually happened during her initial interrogation. I find the facts, or rather the lack of them, quite intriguing.

Some people are convinced that she must be guilty because the outcome was that she apparently signed a statement at the end of it "confessing" to an accident and repeated the contents to a judge.

Was this interrogation filmed?
Was she accompanied by a lawyer at all times?
How long did the sessions last?
Was she given food / water / toilet access / time to sleep durin this time?
Were bluff techniques used?
Was she subjected to now largely descredited interrogation techniques to force a confession, or not?

Did anyone ever raise this in court?

I'm sure her former lawyer Joao Grade could answer all those questions given he was there.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on November 21, 2017, 02:27:40 AM
One or both may be guilty.

However, the reliance on "confessions" in dubious conditions and the lack of supporting evidence of the alleged scenario really make me wonder.

I'm perfectly aware that some people think I'm biased because some people were also involved in another case, but I really have tried to examine this case separately (not always easy). I'm also aware that some also assume that they must be guilty due a knee-jerk reaction.

If people just stand back and examine the facts of this case... I really don't understand how it ever got to court in a civilised society.

What influence did the manifestly pro-PJ tabloid media have?

I can't recall many cases where a sane individual with a previous conviction for attempted murder confesses to killing a child but nevertheless is sent on his merry way.  But somehow you believe Joao Cipriano should have been treated exactly like that.  Now that is indeed puzzling?

One must not forget too that not only did Leonora Cipriano initially claim to have killed the child by bashing her head off the kitchen wall but later changed her story to implicate her brother Joao.

Both innocent?    *&^^&
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Carana on November 21, 2017, 04:39:32 PM
I'm sure her former lawyer Joao Grade could answer all those questions given he was there.

Lawyers kept changing, as you know.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Carana on November 21, 2017, 04:40:54 PM
I can't recall many cases where a sane individual with a previous conviction for attempted murder confesses to killing a child but nevertheless is sent on his merry way.  But somehow you believe Joao Cipriano should have been treated exactly like that.  Now that is indeed puzzling?

One must not forget too that not only did Leonora Cipriano initially claim to have killed the child by bashing her head off the kitchen wall but later changed her story to implicate her brother Joao.

Both innocent?    *&^^&

I can quite easily imagine how she could have been brow-beaten into that. You can't, so we differ.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on November 22, 2017, 12:21:08 AM
Lawyers kept changing, as you know.

Not pre trial.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on November 22, 2017, 12:23:37 AM
I can quite easily imagine how she could have been brow-beaten into that. You can't, so we differ.

I don't see it that way at all.  In my view she was at the very lowest complicit with her brother in the cover up following the child's demise.  Her story changed regularly, certainly not the conduct of an entirely innocent person.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on November 27, 2017, 03:04:19 PM
The dissenting Judge was unhappy with the verdict BUT he never stated that he thought Leonora Cipriano innocent, that's the big difference. At the very least, Leonora Cipriano was guilty of complicity in a crime and attempting to pervert the course of justice.  By is own admission, her brother John admitted to murder and disposing of a body in an attempt to avoid justice.  Both are guilty of staging an abduction.
Joao (John) was a drug adict.  Withdraw all his drugs and then offer them * if  * a confession is given.  IMO he would be like putty in their hands.   And with Amaral and Cristovao both being criminals, of the perjury type etc., nothing would surprise me tbh

I am not saying that they did that, but they certainly allowed for Leonor to be beaten to the point of near blindness.

And drug with drawel, then drugs allowed, would be an easier route than beating Joao up



Leonor is an impressively strong and brave woman in my opinion, but eventually she was broken.   On the other hand,  Joao seems a weak individual.   AIMO

However being weak, or strong, does not mean either was involved in getting rid of Joana.


Joanas body has never been found and I think it likely that she is still alive.  I think thta she was the little girl in the orange top in the photo taken in Morocco.  The one that shows a man /woman carrying a little girl who does not look like Bushra Benissa , but looks the image of Madeleine.

I think she is probably still alive.   In fact, I think that both are probably still alive

AIMHO
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: sadie on November 27, 2017, 03:10:55 PM
One could also argue that the circumstances surrounding her first interrogation aren't very clear, either. If the entire interrogation sessions (both formal and, erm, informal)  had been recorded and we were able to watch them, perhaps I'd be less suspicious. The same goes for Joćo (all his interrogations and anything leading up to and including that bizarre reconstruction).

Anyone in authority can say anything if there's no accountability.

Excellent poiint Carana

Nothing to verify what Amaral claimed
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on December 12, 2017, 01:17:11 PM
Have you ever found any evidence of that, John?

As a former police officer I know what goes on.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on December 12, 2017, 01:19:12 PM
Excellent poiint Carana

Nothing to verify what Amaral claimed

The police video which Joćo Cipriano starred in speaks for itself. He knew exactly what happened to the child otherwise he couldn't have gone through the entire episode for the benefit of the camera.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Carana on December 13, 2017, 11:28:15 AM
As a former police officer I know what goes on.

Then I expect you know about false confessions, then.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Carana on December 13, 2017, 11:45:17 AM
The police video which Joćo Cipriano starred in speaks for itself. He knew exactly what happened to the child otherwise he couldn't have gone through the entire episode for the benefit of the camera.

Are you being serious, John?

http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2012/11/only-the-guilty-would-confess-to-crimes%E2%80%A8-understanding-the-mystery-of-false-confessions/

http://www.falseconfessions.org/fact-a-figures

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/exonerations-2015_us_56ac0374e4b00b033aaf3da9

https://web.williams.edu/Psychology/Faculty/Kassin/files/drizenl.leo.04.pdf
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: John on December 21, 2017, 01:29:13 AM
Are you being serious, John?

http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2012/11/only-the-guilty-would-confess-to-crimes%E2%80%A8-understanding-the-mystery-of-false-confessions/

http://www.falseconfessions.org/fact-a-figures

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/exonerations-2015_us_56ac0374e4b00b033aaf3da9

https://web.williams.edu/Psychology/Faculty/Kassin/files/drizenl.leo.04.pdf

Yes, absolutely serious.  Only the perpetrator of the crime would know exactly what was done and when.  A fantasist or a time waster would not have had the knowledge to take part in that video.
Title: Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
Post by: Carana on December 21, 2017, 11:33:12 AM
Yes, absolutely serious.  Only the perpetrator of the crime would know exactly what was done and when.  A fantasist or a time waster would not have had the knowledge to take part in that video.

If you read the press interview with Leandro (published BEFORE Madeleine's disappearance), he said that Joćo appeared to be in a strange state that day. As you'll remember, Leandro had to accompany them to the house to give them the keys.

Do you really imagine that he went there without any form of coercion?

How does anyone not present during that "reconstruction" know whether he was given a scenario to act out?

I can't find any phsyical evidence in the files to support that what he "reconstructed" actually happened. The other guys could have come back at any moment - how on earth would he have had time to chop up a body, stuff the bits in the small fridge, change his mind, take it all out again, stuff the remains somewhere else, between them clean up all the gory mess everywhere...

IMO, it sounds more like a 10-year-old's first attempt at writing a crime story than anything plausible in those circumstances.

If one or both are indeed guilty of whatever actually happened to her (to date unknown), I don't see how it could have happened as alleged via this "reconstruction".