Reaction at Tapas bar

[peter claridge]

Imagine the scene, eight adults (count them) sat at the Tapas bar of a resort with two swimming pools and open access to the outside world, a mother returns from checking on her offspring shouting that one of them is missing from the apartment.  Seven of the adults get up from the table and all of them rush to said apartment.  What's wrong here?

[debunker]

Imagine the scene, eight adults (count them) sat at the Tapas bar of a resort with two swimming pools and open access to the outside world, a mother returns from checking on her offspring shouting that one of them is missing from the apartment.  Seven of the adults get up from the table and all of them rush to said apartment.  What's wrong here?

Nothing given the range of possible human reactions to crises.

[marxman]

I would suggest that a group of individuals would react in very different ways, not as a herd. Some would let the parents deal with it but express their concern, some would offer help but wait for instruction or a clearer understanding of the situation, some might even do nothing thinking that the child has wandered off or with another adult within their group. But for all except one to rush off together with a single herd mentality may support a view that this was pre-arranged and a staged scene.

[debunker]

I would suggest that a group of individuals would react in very different ways, not as a herd. Some would let the parents deal with it but express their concern, some would offer help but wait for instruction or a clearer understanding of the situation, some might even do nothing thinking that the child has wandered off or with another adult within their group. But for all except one to rush off together with a single herd mentality may support a view that this was pre-arranged and a staged scene.

Pure conjecture and from a potentially biased source.

[marxman]

I would suggest that a group of individuals would react in very different ways, not as a herd. Some would let the parents deal with it but express their concern, some would offer help but wait for instruction or a clearer understanding of the situation, some might even do nothing thinking that the child has wandered off or with another adult within their group. But for all except one to rush off together with a single herd mentality may support a view that this was pre-arranged and a staged scene.

Pure conjecture and from a potentially biased source.

Of course its conjecture, and I chose my wording carefully to illustrate same, but as you said two posts up, people tend to react to a crisis in different ways, and not together in unison. Do you agree?

[debunker]

I would suggest that a group of individuals would react in very different ways, not as a herd. Some would let the parents deal with it but express their concern, some would offer help but wait for instruction or a clearer understanding of the situation, some might even do nothing thinking that the child has wandered off or with another adult within their group. But for all except one to rush off together with a single herd mentality may support a view that this was pre-arranged and a staged scene.

Pure conjecture and from a potentially biased source.

Of course its conjecture, and I chose my wording carefully to illustrate same, but as you said two posts up, people tend to react to a crisis in different ways, and not together in unison. Do you agree?

 Any conjecture is equally unreliable.

[Benice]

Jane Tanner wasn't at the table when the alarm was raised.   

The others reacted in exactly the way I would expect them to on hearing such shocking news - and seeing the state of distress KM was in.     It would be unnatural for them not to IMO.

[peter claridge]

Jane Tanner wasn't at the table when the alarm was raised.   

The others reacted in exactly the way I would expect them to on hearing such shocking news - and seeing the state of distress KM was in.     It would be unnatural for them not to IMO.

Not according to these two timelines written by her partner that night after the alarm was raised:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html#tap19

[marxman]

Jane Tanner wasn't at the table when the alarm was raised.   

The others reacted in exactly the way I would expect them to on hearing such shocking news - and seeing the state of distress KM was in.     It would be unnatural for them not to IMO.

I disagree Benice, I would expect a natural response from a group would be to react in disarray until the full impact of the news was realised. It was a missing child and at that stage it would not be 'shocking' because many factors which could answer the child's disappearance would be on the minds of all there. ie, wandering off, hiding, in another hotel room or as you said Jane wasn't there,

[Redblossom]

Jane Tanner wasn't at the table when the alarm was raised.   

The others reacted in exactly the way I would expect them to on hearing such shocking news - and seeing the state of distress KM was in.     It would be unnatural for them not to IMO.

Not according to these two timelines written by her partner that night after the alarm was raised:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html#tap19

?? Those timelines dont show Tanner leaving a second time, she wasn't going on a normal checking routine,  it's obvious if their child was sick, she will have gone back so that her partner could return to the restaraunt to have his meal. Not all the movements were recorded. Why Russells return was recorded though and no one elses  is anyones guess, it seems to have been a hurried exercise, I dont think too much can be made of it, especially seeing as  they  will have had a good deal to drink and had to rack their brains on the spot.

[Benice]

Jane Tanner wasn't at the table when the alarm was raised.   

The others reacted in exactly the way I would expect them to on hearing such shocking news - and seeing the state of distress KM was in.     It would be unnatural for them not to IMO.

Not according to these two timelines written by her partner that night after the alarm was raised:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html#tap19

Those timings were written down a couple of hours after Madeleine disappeared.  They were at best 'hurried' estimates - and cannot be regarded as accurate or containing all the detailed info at such a stressful time.     I didn't see anywhere that Jane Tanner was placed at the table when KM gave the alarm.   

JT had returned to the table (after seeing 'the abductor',)  then went back to the apartment again later (9.45ish) to relieve Russell.   The restaurant staff cooked a fresh meal for him because he had been away looking after Evie and his meal had got cold.   He returned to eat it and JT stayed with their daughter who was unwell.  She was still there when the alarm was raised.

None of the times given (apart from Gerry's who looked at his watch at 9.05)  - can be regarded as completely accurate.    It would only be by going over the evening together that their combined recollections could eventually arrive at what were the most accurate times, and most accurate sequence of events, as what one person had forgotten, another might remember etc - but even then they would still only be approximations.

IIRC, one of the group originally thought that JT and Gerry had left the table together - (when GM met Jez).   However during later discussion no doubt Jane (or others) would point out that she was still at the table when they began making jokes about why Gerry had been gone so long  (watching the footie) - so then that person would accept that he/she was mistaken.      I see nothing to criticise in their discussing times etc as none of them had any reason to remember precise times until AFTER Madeleine disappeared.  It was only then that it became so important.
All IMHO.









 




     

[Benice]

Jane Tanner wasn't at the table when the alarm was raised.   

The others reacted in exactly the way I would expect them to on hearing such shocking news - and seeing the state of distress KM was in.     It would be unnatural for them not to IMO.

I disagree Benice, I would expect a natural response from a group would be to react in disarray until the full impact of the news was realised. It was a missing child and at that stage it would not be 'shocking' because many factors which could answer the child's disappearance would be on the minds of all there. ie, wandering off, hiding, in another hotel room or as you said Jane wasn't there, maybe she was with Jane.

Well we shall have to agree to disagree Marxman, as I cannot imagine anyone NOT jumping up and rushing  to the apartment in such circumstances.   Kate's whole demeanour when she raised the alarm, would leave them in no doubt that SHE thought something terrible had happened to her daughter.   How could anyone remain sitting there in the face of such obvious fear and panic.   

As Jane Tanner had never been in the McCanns apartment, I simply don't believe that it would occur to anyone that Madeleine was with her.


 

[faithlilly]

Jane Tanner wasn't at the table when the alarm was raised.   

The others reacted in exactly the way I would expect them to on hearing such shocking news - and seeing the state of distress KM was in.     It would be unnatural for them not to IMO.

I disagree Benice, I would expect a natural response from a group would be to react in disarray until the full impact of the news was realised. It was a missing child and at that stage it would not be 'shocking' because many factors which could answer the child's disappearance would be on the minds of all there. ie, wandering off, hiding, in another hotel room or as you said Jane wasn't there, maybe she was with Jane.

Well we shall have to agree to disagree Marxman, as I cannot imagine anyone NOT jumping up and rushing  to the apartment in such circumstances.   Kate's whole demeanour when she raised the alarm, would leave them in no doubt that SHE thought something terrible had happened to her daughter.   How could anyone remain sitting there in the face of such obvious fear and panic.   

As Jane Tanner had never been in the McCanns apartment, I simply don't believe that it would occur to anyone that Madeleine was with her.


 

I disagree. As the checking was so ad hoc, with friends listening out for the McCann children while checking on their own,  it would have been absolutely feasible that Tanner may have listened at the McCann children's window, heard Madeleine crying and taken her into her own apartment to comfort her.

Surely any mother who finds their child missing from their bed would explore any and every other possibility before having to accept that her worst fears may be true ?

[Benice]

Jane Tanner wasn't at the table when the alarm was raised.   

The others reacted in exactly the way I would expect them to on hearing such shocking news - and seeing the state of distress KM was in.     It would be unnatural for them not to IMO.

I disagree Benice, I would expect a natural response from a group would be to react in disarray until the full impact of the news was realised. It was a missing child and at that stage it would not be 'shocking' because many factors which could answer the child's disappearance would be on the minds of all there. ie, wandering off, hiding, in another hotel room or as you said Jane wasn't there, maybe she was with Jane.

Well we shall have to agree to disagree Marxman, as I cannot imagine anyone NOT jumping up and rushing  to the apartment in such circumstances.   Kate's whole demeanour when she raised the alarm, would leave them in no doubt that SHE thought something terrible had happened to her daughter.   How could anyone remain sitting there in the face of such obvious fear and panic.   

As Jane Tanner had never been in the McCanns apartment, I simply don't believe that it would occur to anyone that Madeleine was with her.


 

I disagree. As the checking was so ad hoc, with friends listening out for the McCann children while checking on their own,  it would have been absolutely feasible that Tanner may have listened at the McCann children's window, heard Madeleine crying and taken her into her own apartment to comfort her.

Surely any mother who finds their child missing from their bed would explore any and every other possibility before having to accept that her worst fears may be true ?

Jane Tanners route back to her apartment did not take her past the bedroom window of 5A.   She entered through the carpark entrance and then walked across the middle of the carpark to reach her own apartment.   At no time would she walk along the path in front of the McCann's front door or bedroom window. 

Also she was returning to allow Rusell to go for his meal.  If she'd had Madeleine with her - then he would have known.

KM came back to find the bedroom window and shutters open, which she knew had been left closed, and her daughter missing.   She searched every room and nook and cranny in the flat and couldn't find her daughter.  By that stage I think she can be forgiven for thinking the worst had happened and panicing.   I'm struggling to think what else would be going through her head at that point.

   

[peter claridge]

Jane Tanner wasn't at the table when the alarm was raised.   

The others reacted in exactly the way I would expect them to on hearing such shocking news - and seeing the state of distress KM was in.     It would be unnatural for them not to IMO.

Not according to these two timelines written by her partner that night after the alarm was raised:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html#tap19

?? Those timelines dont show Tanner leaving a second time, she wasn't going on a normal checking routine,  it's obvious if their child was sick, she will have gone back so that her partner could return to the restaraunt to have his meal. Not all the movements were recorded. Why Russells return was recorded though and no one elses  is anyones guess, it seems to have been a hurried exercise, I dont think too much can be made of it, especially seeing as  they  will have had a good deal to drink and had to rack their brains on the spot.

You actually believe that their daughter was ill?