Portuguese judicial secrecy law and its impact on the Madeleine case.

[Brietta]

But the reason for their silence can only be an opinion.

You as a moderator are presumed to have an inkling of the basics of the case; the least of which is knowledge of judicial secrecy laws in Portugal.

Snip
Speaking from London, Mrs Oldfield said that she was not able to talk about the investigation, because of strict judicial secrecy laws in Portugal, but that the group were increasingly frustrated by a series of leaks and wild speculation.

She said: "I think there are some leaks coming from the police but a lot of what I have read recently has been completely untrue.
****    ****    ****    ****    ****
Mrs Oldfield said: "They are throwing mud at us and we are not able to defend ourselves. It does not help to find Madeleine. We just have to hope the investigation progresses to a point where something concrete comes out of it."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1559784/Madeleine-holiday-friends-attack-police-smears.html

[ShiningInLuz]

You as a moderator are presumed to have an inkling of the basics of the case; the least of which is knowledge of judicial secrecy laws in Portugal.

Snip
Speaking from London, Mrs Oldfield said that she was not able to talk about the investigation, because of strict judicial secrecy laws in Portugal, but that the group were increasingly frustrated by a series of leaks and wild speculation.

She said: "I think there are some leaks coming from the police but a lot of what I have read recently has been completely untrue.
****    ****    ****    ****    ****
Mrs Oldfield said: "They are throwing mud at us and we are not able to defend ourselves. It does not help to find Madeleine. We just have to hope the investigation progresses to a point where something concrete comes out of it."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1559784/Madeleine-holiday-friends-attack-police-smears.html

In what way is a media report dated 8 Aug 2007 relevant to a discussion about the T7 silence after the case was shelved in 2008?

And how did the thread deviate so much from the topic title?  ETA This thread has now been split off from its prior location, so we can have a jolly argy-bargy about the T9 (et al) and what they could and did say pre and post archiving.

[misty]

In what way is a media report dated 8 Aug 2007 relevant to a discussion about the T7 silence after the case was shelved in 2008?

And how did the thread deviate so much from the topic title?

If you refer to Brietta's post #208, you will see the parallels regarding presumption of innocence for those bound by judicial secrecy versus the release of information by the investigative body who appear to have breached the same constraints.
Stalker's comments about a possible secret were made in October 2007, well before the case was shelved & the files released to the public. Given that there have been very few media statements from any arguidos or witnesses to the events since 2008, I do not find it strange that any of the T7 have maintained a silence, especially if they have nothing further to add to what is already known.

[G-Unit]

If you refer to Brietta's post #208, you will see the parallels regarding presumption of innocence for those bound by judicial secrecy versus the release of information by the investigative body who appear to have breached the same constraints.
Stalker's comments about a possible secret were made in October 2007, well before the case was shelved & the files released to the public. Given that there have been very few media statements from any arguidos or witnesses to the events since 2008, I do not find it strange that any of the T7 have maintained a silence, especially if they have nothing further to add to what is already known.

Stalker sensed there was something was being hidden and he wasn't the only one. If he was right they were silent because of that, not because of Judicial secrecy. Mrs Oldfield et al were as free to speak as anyone else when the case was archived, but never did.

[Alice Purjorick]

Synopsis.
In Portugal public criminal proceedings are in three stages
Inquiry
Bringing to Justice
Trial.
Pre Aug 29th/31st 2007 the inquiry stage only was subject to judicial secrecy although it seems the PP could make public items that he felt would help the inquiry.
Since 29th/31st August 2007 none of the proceedings is secret.
It is not clear whether the lifting of secrecy for the inquiry stage was retrospective.
There is a right to the presumption of innocence for anyone with arguido status.

If you have £120.00 (or £104.00 on Kindle) to spare it's in here :
https://www.bloomsbury.com/in/toward-a-prosecutor-for-the-european-union-volume-1-9781782250456/
You will not find a full review of The Portuguese bit on that tinternet so buy it or find it in your local reference library. It makes for some interesting reading along with an eye opener to all the chaff that's been dropped on this topic.

[misty]

Synopsis.
In Portugal public criminal proceedings are in three stages
Inquiry
Bringing to Justice
Trial.
Pre Aug 29th/31st 2007 the inquiry stage only was subject to judicial secrecy although it seems the PP could make public items that he felt would help the inquiry.
Since 29th/31st August 2007 none of the proceedings is secret.
It is not clear whether the lifting of secrecy for the inquiry stage was retrospective.
There is a right to the presumption of innocence for anyone with arguido status.

If you have £120.00 (or £104.00 on Kindle) to spare it's in here :
https://www.bloomsbury.com/in/toward-a-prosecutor-for-the-european-union-volume-1-9781782250456/
You will not find a full review of The Portuguese bit on that tinternet so buy it or find it in your local reference library. It makes for some interesting reading along with an eye opener to all the chaff that's been dropped on this topic.

As I'm not as rich as you, I have to rely on the situation as reported at the time.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jul/01/madeleinemccann.ukcrime
*snipped*

In a brief statement sent to the Guardian, the attorney-general's office said a "final report" prepared by the police would be carefully considered.

It added: "The public prosecutor's office will proceed with the global analysis and evaluation of the whole case in order to determine whether or not the necessary and sufficient conditions have been united allowing for the case's closure and subsequent preparation of a final report."

The statement ended with the note: "The case remains under judicial secrecy until mid-August."

[misty]

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UoLbBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA583&lpg=PA583&dq=judicial+secrecy+during+investigative+stage+in+portugal&source=bl&ots=Aauw4d5ElV&sig=CEFQ4tevnx1uQDFj2L2U9nwMlr0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM7pCN-bjVAhUFCsAKHZINBTEQ6AEIYTAJ#v=onepage&q=judicial%20secrecy%20during%20investigative%20stage%20in%20portugal&f=false

The PP can still request judicial secrecy if necessary.

[slartibartfast]

I don't agree.  Whatever other reason some might wish to imagine, Judicial Secrecy has to be first and foremost because silence is demanded by law.  This is a fact.

Deciding what someone's personal reason for doing something can only ever be an opinion, unless that person has told you their reasons.

[Alice Purjorick]

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UoLbBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA583&lpg=PA583&dq=judicial+secrecy+during+investigative+stage+in+portugal&source=bl&ots=Aauw4d5ElV&sig=CEFQ4tevnx1uQDFj2L2U9nwMlr0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM7pCN-bjVAhUFCsAKHZINBTEQ6AEIYTAJ#v=onepage&q=judicial%20secrecy%20during%20investigative%20stage%20in%20portugal&f=false

The PP can still request judicial secrecy if necessary.

He can so too but I didn't say he couldn't.
My thrust was that if you want to find out about Portuguese Law go to the source not the MSM.
p.s I didn't buy the book I found it in the reference section of a library whilst looking for something else about EU Law. I read the Portuguese paper which as I said shows just how much chaff has been dropped on the McCann case.
There is a review of the book on google but several pages are omitted within each paper so one is unable to obtain the full picture.
RTFM

[John]

I can imagine it is difficult for any suspect/arguido who is required to comply with secrecy laws yet the office of the judicial police is leaking like a sieve.  No exactly a level playing field in any language.

Reminds me of the historic sex assault allegations surrounding Cliff Richard which were dropped by the CPS after yet another expensive two year enquiry.  As was revealed later, the BBC were tipped off by the police prior to the raid on his Berkshire apartment.

More to the point, were any police officers reprimanded over the incident?



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3873014/Police-gave-BBC-running-commentary-Sir-Cliff-Richard-raid.html

[Alice Purjorick]

I can imagine it is difficult for any suspect/arguido who is required to comply with secrecy laws yet the office of the judicial police is leaking like a sieve.  No exactly a level playing field in any language.

Reminds me of the historic sex assault allegations surrounding Cliff Richard which were dropped by the CPS after yet another expensive two year enquiry.  As was revealed later, the BBC were tipped off by the police prior to the raid on his Berkshire apartment.

More to the point, were any police officers reprimanded over the incident?



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3873014/Police-gave-BBC-running-commentary-Sir-Cliff-Richard-raid.html

The surprising thing here is , and I freely use ancient scuttlebutt initially, is that despite the system leaking like a sieve and despite the Portuguese wishing to stitch up the McCann's and despite every man jack of the Portuguese Judiciary being as bent as a dockers hook the PP still managed to make the system work as intended in that the inquiry was filed in accordance with the law.

[Brietta]

The surprising thing here is , and I freely use ancient scuttlebutt initially, is that despite the system leaking like a sieve and despite the Portuguese wishing to stitch up the McCann's and despite every man jack of the Portuguese Judiciary being as bent as a dockers hook the PP still managed to make the system work as intended in that the inquiry was filed in accordance with the law.

I don't think the system did work, Alice.  It didn't find Madeleine McCann and in my opinion the way in which the system was used was the main impediment to that. 

You posted there are three stages in Portuguese criminal proceedings ...

• Inquiry
• Bringing to Justice
• Trial

The first two steps you detailed in the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance began and ended with the parents; with the insidious leaks destroying their credibility starting with JOSE MANUEL OLIVEIRA Crime reporter, 'Diario de Noticias': a badly told story ... PEDRO TADEU, Editor, 24 Horas': displayed a cold and calculating attitude throughout this process ... JOSE BARRA da COSTA, Former Policia Judiciaria: this is a couple who practice 'swinging'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/7106086.stm

All of that was being fed into the public domain and consciousness at a time when the victims of it were gagged and unable to refute the lies being spread about them because the secrecy law did not allow them to speak about the investigation.

It was a very close run thing for the McCanns who were no doubt aware of the Cipriano case. 
In the event their story did not end as Leonor's did with a 'murderer' safely under lock and key with all three stages in proceedings completed.
Neither did it reach stage three of the process with any suspect going to trial.  Whether or not that could be put down entirely to the abuse of the penal laws by the investigation could never be determined ... but I don't think it could have helped.

[ShiningInLuz]

I don't think the system did work, Alice.  It didn't find Madeleine McCann and in my opinion the way in which the system was used was the main impediment to that. 

You posted there are three stages in Portuguese criminal proceedings ...

• Inquiry
• Bringing to Justice
• Trial

The first two steps you detailed in the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance began and ended with the parents; with the insidious leaks destroying their credibility starting with JOSE MANUEL OLIVEIRA Crime reporter, 'Diario de Noticias': a badly told story ... PEDRO TADEU, Editor, 24 Horas': displayed a cold and calculating attitude throughout this process ... JOSE BARRA da COSTA, Former Policia Judiciaria: this is a couple who practice 'swinging'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/7106086.stm

All of that was being fed into the public domain and consciousness at a time when the victims of it were gagged and unable to refute the lies being spread about them because the secrecy law did not allow them to speak about the investigation.

It was a very close run thing for the McCanns who were no doubt aware of the Cipriano case. 
In the event their story did not end as Leonor's did with a 'murderer' safely under lock and key with all three stages in proceedings completed.
Neither did it reach stage three of the process with any suspect going to trial.  Whether or not that could be put down entirely to the abuse of the penal laws by the investigation could never be determined ... but I don't think it could have helped.

Kindly provide a cite for "the McCanns who were no doubt aware of the Cipriano case".

[Brietta]

Kindly provide a cite for "the McCanns who were no doubt aware of the Cipriano case".

Police officer made arguido in the process of assaults against Leonor Cipriano Expresso

An official of the PJ of Portimao is the seventh police officer to be implicated in the process of alleged assaults on the mother of Joana.
18:00 Friday, May 4, 2007
Gonçalo Amaral, coordinator of the Judicial Police of Portimão, was accused in the case investigating the alleged assaults on Leonor Cipriano, which occurred in October 2004. The woman complained of being beaten, kicked and with a cardboard tube During informal interrogations? Which would have taken place without the presence of the defense lawyer and without the knowledge of the public prosecutor investigating the disappearance of the eight-year-old daughter of Leonor.
Gonçalo Amaral was at that time coordinator of the PJ of Faro
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id176.htm


Of course the McCanns knew about the case of another little girl who apparently vanished off the face of the earth without trace from a town in close proximity to that from which their daughter had disappeared; and the prosecution being taken against the man coordinating Madeleine's case as he had hers.

Just as they would later find out about the torture case against Tavares Almeida who had interrogated Kate McCann.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1565474/Head-of-Madeleine-McCann-inquiry-faces-trial.html

Why do you persist in demanding meaningless cites for throwaway remarks which quite obviously require none ... particularly when it deflects into off topic?

[ShiningInLuz]

Police officer made arguido in the process of assaults against Leonor Cipriano Expresso

An official of the PJ of Portimao is the seventh police officer to be implicated in the process of alleged assaults on the mother of Joana.
18:00 Friday, May 4, 2007
Gonçalo Amaral, coordinator of the Judicial Police of Portimão, was accused in the case investigating the alleged assaults on Leonor Cipriano, which occurred in October 2004. The woman complained of being beaten, kicked and with a cardboard tube During informal interrogations? Which would have taken place without the presence of the defense lawyer and without the knowledge of the public prosecutor investigating the disappearance of the eight-year-old daughter of Leonor.
Gonçalo Amaral was at that time coordinator of the PJ of Faro
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id176.htm


Of course the McCanns knew about the case of another little girl who apparently vanished off the face of the earth without trace from a town in close proximity to that from which their daughter had disappeared; and the prosecution being taken against the man coordinating Madeleine's case as he had hers.

Just as they would later find out about the torture case against Tavares Almeida who had interrogated Kate McCann.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1565474/Head-of-Madeleine-McCann-inquiry-faces-trial.html

Why do you persist in demanding meaningless cites for throwaway remarks which quite obviously require none ... particularly when it deflects into off topic?

I can see nothing in your cite that shows the McCanns knew about the Cipriano case.

Do you have a cite that the McCanns knew about the Cipriano case?  A cite or a 'no' would suffice.