Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 835641 times)

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ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #105 on: May 13, 2015, 08:47:30 PM »
I can't quite fathom why anyone (here) would profess to know better than Mark Harrison ...

Offline Eleanor

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #106 on: May 13, 2015, 08:51:03 PM »
Eddy was trained initially as a Victim Recovery Dog.  VRD.  They are trained to scent blood from live people.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 09:09:30 PM by Eleanor »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #107 on: May 13, 2015, 08:53:08 PM »
Why did Eddie alert to a sex tissue then?

Cite. Eddie alerts to blood.

"'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain."
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Benice

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #108 on: May 13, 2015, 08:56:39 PM »
Do you know why Keela didn't go in to the other apartments? You don't understand that the dogs work as a TEAM going from your post. Eddie and Keela don't go in to sniff every inch of the apartments looking for blood traces. Eddie goes in first to detect cadaver scent in a missing person case. Their job is to investigate if death occurred at the crime scene. If Eddie alerts then Keela is sent in to investigate that alerted area (not the whole apartment!) to find any traces of blood.

Not so  IMO.      Eddie goes in first and if he alerts -  Grime doesn't know whether he alerted to cadaverscent or blood from a dead or living person - because he alerts to both.      He then sends Keela in.  If she alerts at the same place then it is a blood detection because she only alerts to blood - although it still isn't known whether it is blood from a dead or living person,     If she doesn't alert at all at the same place then it's suggestive of cadaverscent.   

If there is no alert at all  from Eddie then Grime didn't need to send Keela in because if there was any blood present  - Eddie would have alerted to it.



The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #109 on: May 13, 2015, 09:01:03 PM »
I'm not sure about that, Anna.  I think it is the case with most cadaver dogs that they will detect blood as well, by default, because blood is a constituent part of any corpse.
 
I think the difference between Eddie and Morse is that Morse was desensitised to blood, and the idea of the Keela and Morse combination was that you had one dog to detect blood and another to detect cadaver odour. 

Remember that a reaction from Morse under the US forensic canine programme was accepted as stand-alone evidence of murder (not applicable with most cadaver dogs).


Maybe I misunderstood then, but he was trained on human blood and piglet corpses.
I will check and see where I read that Eddie was a blood dog......If I can find it.

What case was Morse used in, that came to a prosecution, because of him, Ferryman?
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #110 on: May 13, 2015, 09:08:05 PM »
Eddy was trained initially as a Victim Recovery Dog.  VDR.  They are trained to scent blood from live people.

Can you name a missing person who has turned up alive after Eddie alerted to cadaver scent?

the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.

The EVRD then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then
used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its original state.

An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at the alert location revealed a small button off of the girls clothing in long grass. The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.

A search of the suspects house by the EVRD was conducted who indicated on the living room carpet.
No forensic evidence was recovered. Subsequently a diary written by the
suspect was alert indicated by the dog
. The diary had written extracts that the
offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead, the diary had in fact
been written by the suspect having handled the body
. This was confirmed by
the offender in interview.

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year.
Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24 last year.
He said: “His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig. As soon as he started to dig I called him back.”
The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropologist was called in to excavate the scene.
The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

Police's two 'body dogs' started out as an unwanted pet and a stray destined for the dogs' home.
Their first deployment was to investigate the murder of Barnsley man Shane Collier, but only Frankie proved suitable, and the other dog had to be retired early.
That was when they began to train up springer spaniel Eddie instead, a dog whose owner was finding him simply "unmanageable".
The four-strong team has never looked back and their first successful – though upsetting – find was Mr Collier's body.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 09:14:28 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #111 on: May 13, 2015, 09:12:50 PM »

It wasn't possible to teach Eddie to stop alerting to blood.  Victim Recovery Dogs alert to Blood.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #112 on: May 13, 2015, 09:13:14 PM »
Cite. Eddie alerts to blood.

"'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain."
Yes!!!  So why was there no minute traces of blood anywhere apart from on McCann-related property?  Jeez, it's like pulling teeth...

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #113 on: May 13, 2015, 09:15:28 PM »
Yes!!!  So why was there no minute traces of blood anywhere apart from on McCann-related property?  Jeez, it's like pulling teeth...

Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. That's Keela's job after Eddie detects cadaver scent in a missing person case. See some examples above.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #114 on: May 13, 2015, 09:17:33 PM »
Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. Doh!

Eddie was operating within the parameters of his training.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #115 on: May 13, 2015, 09:25:50 PM »
Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. That's Keela's job after Eddie detects cadaver scent in a missing person case. See some examples above.
Are you telling me that in Jersey he was tasked with looking for blood?

Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #116 on: May 13, 2015, 09:26:42 PM »
Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. That's Keela's job after Eddie detects cadaver scent in a missing person case. See some examples above.

Eddie might not have been sent in to find blood, but he did have the capabilities to detect blood, so it would be necessary to have Keela check his findings, if he had alerted in any other place.
However He never alerted to blood anywhere except 5A. We know this because keela was not used to check out any alerts. So why, no blood anywhere, but 5A?
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Eleanor

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #117 on: May 13, 2015, 09:28:07 PM »
Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. That's Keela's job after Eddie detects cadaver scent in a missing person case. See some examples above.

How did Eddie know what he was supposed to be looking for?  Did Grime tell him it was a Missing Person Case?

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #118 on: May 13, 2015, 09:29:40 PM »
How did Eddie know what he was supposed to be looking for?  Did Grime tell him it was a Missing Person Case?
Grime must have used a special "cadaver only" cue...

Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #119 on: May 13, 2015, 09:31:10 PM »
How did Eddie know what he was supposed to be looking for?  Did Grime tell him it was a Missing Person Case?


 @)(++(*
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato