Amaral and the dogs

[Brietta]

Eddie doesn't alert to semen unless it's mixed with blood.  Eddie was specially trained and deconditioned to alert to semen. Eddie's job was to find the body. He was trained on human cadavers. The dogs are a murder squad like Operation Grange.

Pseudo scent is an artificially chemically produced product that its  manufacturers claim to resemble 'dead body scent'. Although some cadaver dog trainers have had limited success with its use in training, when tested on my dogs they showed no interest and it is not used as a training aid for them.

Putrecine and cadaverine occur naturally and are part of the smell of human remains.

There is no way a dog trained to locate human remains will ignore that scent.  It all emanates from the body; if someone has ejaculated and for example, cleaned with a tissue ... the dog will react as Eddie did.

**snip
The smell of a decomposing body is made up of all sorts of interesting compounds, but amines and sulfurous molecules make up the stinkier end of the spectrum. Most of those amines come from breakdown of the proteins in the corpse, and two of them have such fetid odours that they have been named putrescine - after the process of putrefaction - and cadaverine, after the Latin-derived word for a corpse: cadaver.

//////
 
  ...cadaverine and putrescine contribute, in small parts, to the smell of urine.

They also turn up in other bodily fluids - both contribute to the odour of semen ...

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/podcast/CIIEcompounds/transcripts/putrescine.asp
 

[pathfinder73]

False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
 operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
 specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
 dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.



in 200 case searches...there are multiple searches in each case


in these 200 case searches eddie has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs...not he has never had a false alert in 200 cases

And their professionalism and success rate are such that when the FBI called on their services recently, they were simply too busy to help.

The South Yorkshire "body dogs" and their handlers, PC Martin Grime and PC John Ellis, are quickly becoming one of the biggest success stories of the police force and have been involved in some of the most high-profile murder investigations of the last three years.

SY haven't ignored the alerts. They are searching for a body. Time for a reality check about these dogs. They are casen proved and get things right.

[Alfred R Jones]

Blood was alerted to on the tissue and both dogs alert to blood.  So either dog would be correct in their blood alert.

You quoted some blog to give the impression that it was Keela, not Eddie that alerted to the tissue - why did you do that, out of interest?  Eddie alerted to the tissue.  So my original question has yet to be addressed - why did he not alert to any place or property except those pertaining to the McCanns...?  Are we to believe that there was no trace of blood in any other apartment, or in Murat's house?  How long did Eddie spend at Murat's residence? 

[pathfinder73]

You quoted some blog to give the impression that it was Keela, not Eddie that alerted to the tissue - why did you do that, out of interest?  Eddie alerted to the tissue.  So my original question has yet to be addressed - why did he not alert to any place or property except those pertaining to the McCanns...?  Are we to believe that there was no trace of blood in any other apartment, or in Murat's house?  How long did Eddie spend at Murat's residence?

That was from Lenny Harper. All you need to know is that SY are looking for a body because of these exceptional murder crime dog detectives. Let's see if this case is solved then we will know how good Eddie and Keela were 

[Alfred R Jones]

That was from Lenny Harper. All you need to know is that SY are looking for a body because of these exceptional murder crime dog detectives. Let's see if this case is solved then we will know how good Eddie and Keela were 

All I WANT to know is why you are unable to address the very salient question I keep on putting on putting to you.  Is it because you don't know the answer?

[mercury]

Sorry VdM, "Verdade Da Mentira".
The sofa theory is in the files. From chat to alarm is about 45 mins.
But the CSST experiment found the minimum PMI required is 85 mins.

That is presuming Gerald Mccann told the truth when he said he looked in on his child at around 9.15pm that night. There is no evidence that he did or didn't.

As regards the time interval between death and a cadaver dog picking up on this, there is a plethora of information, some anecdotal, some scientific, some confirmed via police work, some in Mr Grime's own CV, and this ranges from "immediately  to 3 hours".

[mercury]

They miss the whole point. The dogs are investigating death. If Eddie doesn't alert then Keela is not used. Eddie detects the source of scent and Keela is brought in to find the proof of the missing person. If that DNA matched Madeleine then the police would think she died inside the apartment. Eddie has given his cadaver alert at the crime scene and Keela has found a blood match. Now you need to find the body. SY have begun searches for that stage.

Correct.

But the FSS did not find a clear blood match to Madeleine Mccann, just a possible one.

[mercury]

MARTIN GRIME PERSONAL PROFILE
09-Processo 9..Pages 2262 to 2268 
11 also Processo XI 2813 to 2835

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

And?

[mercury]

Do you have an objective, unbiased cite based on scientific evidence that your statement in bold is true?

It's common sense and logic in the main.

[pathfinder73]

All I WANT to know is why you are unable to address the very salient question I keep on putting on putting to you.  Is it because you don't know the answer?

Eddie is sent in first to find a body. When Eddie has alerted Keela comes in to locate any microscopic blood. Eddie is the body dog and Keela is the blood dog. Eddie is there to find evidence of a body in a missing person case. If Eddie doesn't alert to a body then Keela is not used.

[Alfred R Jones]

It's common sense and logic in the main.

That's simply not good enough I'm afraid.

[Alfred R Jones]

Eddie is sent in first to find a body. When Eddie has alerted Keela comes in to locate any microscopic blood. It is too simple for you to understand. Eddie is the body dog and Keela is the blood dog. Eddie is there to find evidence of a body in a missing person case.

Another non-answer. 

[stephen25000]

Putrecine and cadaverine occur naturally and are part of the smell of human remains.

There is no way a dog trained to locate human remains will ignore that scent.  It all emanates from the body; if someone has ejaculated and for example, cleaned with a tissue ... the dog will react as Eddie did.

**snip
The smell of a decomposing body is made up of all sorts of interesting compounds, but amines and sulfurous molecules make up the stinkier end of the spectrum. Most of those amines come from breakdown of the proteins in the corpse, and two of them have such fetid odours that they have been named putrescine - after the process of putrefaction - and cadaverine, after the Latin-derived word for a corpse: cadaver.

//////
 
  ...cadaverine and putrescine contribute, in small parts, to the smell of urine.

They also turn up in other bodily fluids - both contribute to the odour of semen ...

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/podcast/CIIEcompounds/transcripts/putrescine.asp

Are you trying for a lesson in Chemistry, or just trying to extract a straw coloured fluid ?

[mercury]

Since you do not appear to understand(or want to) the words of an expert or Mr Grimes' report in the McCann files, I thought these simple links might help................but alas you are convinced, so I will leave you to it.
Nobody knows what happened and it is all guesswork. If, however you have proof that madeleine died in 5A, Please share.

I never asserted any such thing Anna. But trust me, I understand the totality of the dog alerts and what they do, do not and could or could not mean. The main thrust of my argument has been about the sheer odds against the given possibilities of the dog alerts and those possibilities existing only in one place, ie the place a child went missing from. Most arguments fall around this but fail every time.

My apologies regarding your link. I mistakenly read it's title and thought it was a "certain known biased" one.

[pathfinder73]

Another non-answer.

You won't find one example when the missing person has turned up alive after Eddie has alerted to a body. Madeleine is still missing.