Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 835672 times)

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Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #375 on: May 20, 2015, 09:30:44 AM »
Now, as to dog deployment.

' If anyone has been following this case -

"jurors found Barry Davis Jr., 34, guilty Monday in a "no body" murder trial after a little more than two hours of deliberation."

http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/barry-davis-found-guilty-in-double-murder-of-area-couple-1.479781

This was the Florida case in which two cadaver dogs alerted to a car "even though the seats and carpeting in the truck had been removed and the vehicle interior scrubbed clean."

http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/murder-prosecution-cadaver-dogs-find-evidence-of-human-remains-1.476920 '

Makes for very interesting reading ... IMO the parallels with Madeleine McCann's case are ZERO ... but for the fact it exemplifies the importance that the indications of cadaver dogs must always be backed by evidence ... and there was evidence in spades in this case.

I think the jury may have considered more compelling evidence than the dogs when reaching a conclusion ... even the fact that he returned to the scene and took the dog from which the victim was inseparable ... various witness statements including an eye witness to the double murder ...

I think it would be safe to say that even with the dog alerts removed from the equation ... there was enough evidence to convict this man ... and no evidence from the jury room about the weight, if any, given to the dogs.


** snip
Elmore used bank account records, cellphone records and the lack of contact with friends and family to argue Davis killed the couple. Many family members were present Monday for closing arguments in the trial of Davis when Elmore made a final push to convince jurors that Davis killed the couple and robbed Hughes’ home “down to the very last salt shaker” in order to have enough money to assemble a marijuana growing business.

**snip
Steward told jurors that the night of May 7, 2012, she and Davis went to Hughes’ home unannounced so Davis could collect on a drug debt. Hughes invited them into his home for dinner and margaritas, she said.
Steward told jurors she and Rhodes left to get margarita mix, only to find Hughes motionless and bleeding on the floor when they returned. Steward said Davis then grabbed Rhodes by the throat until she slipped into unconsciousness. He then bound both Hughes and Rhodes and submerged their head in a bathtub, she testified.

**snip
A cadre of people who helped Davis in some way after May 7 told investigators they feared Davis and misled law enforcement under his direction, including a group who assisted in removing Hughes’ possessions from his home. In total, authorities said they recovered more than $18,000 in Hughes’ property from Davis’ home.

Authorities also claimed Davis forged about $16,000 worth of Hughes’ checks for moving Hughes out of his house and “property maintenance.” Those funds went toward planting the seeds of a business, the prosecution said.

“He was broke,” Elmore said. “He couldn’t even turn his lights on, but here comes the future. He took Hughes’ money to build the marijuana grow room.”

**snip
Prosecutors also claimed a trail of cellphone calls and texts highlighted the truths of witness testimony and traced Davis’ actions in the days and weeks after the killings of Hughes and Rhodes as investigators attempted to close in on Davis.

Davis previously was acquitted of stealing a 2008 Corvette from Hughes following his disappearance. Jurors on Monday found Davis guilty of 15 counts of robbery, theft and fraud to attain Hughes’ possessions, including first-degree premeditated murder of Hughes and Rhodes.
http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/barry-davis-found-guilty-in-double-murder-of-area-couple-1.479781?page=3

"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #376 on: May 20, 2015, 09:44:39 AM »
Makes for very interesting reading ... IMO the parallels with Madeleine McCann's case are ZERO ... but for the fact it exemplifies the importance that the indications of cadaver dogs must always be backed by evidence ... and there was evidence in spades in this case.

I think the jury may have considered more compelling evidence than the dogs when reaching a conclusion ... even the fact that he returned to the scene and took the dog from which the victim was inseparable ... various witness statements including an eye witness to the double murder ...

I think it would be safe to say that even with the dog alerts removed from the equation ... there was enough evidence to convict this man ... and no evidence from the jury room about the weight, if any, given to the dogs.


** snip
Elmore used bank account records, cellphone records and the lack of contact with friends and family to argue Davis killed the couple. Many family members were present Monday for closing arguments in the trial of Davis when Elmore made a final push to convince jurors that Davis killed the couple and robbed Hughes’ home “down to the very last salt shaker” in order to have enough money to assemble a marijuana growing business.

**snip
Steward told jurors that the night of May 7, 2012, she and Davis went to Hughes’ home unannounced so Davis could collect on a drug debt. Hughes invited them into his home for dinner and margaritas, she said.
Steward told jurors she and Rhodes left to get margarita mix, only to find Hughes motionless and bleeding on the floor when they returned. Steward said Davis then grabbed Rhodes by the throat until she slipped into unconsciousness. He then bound both Hughes and Rhodes and submerged their head in a bathtub, she testified.

**snip
A cadre of people who helped Davis in some way after May 7 told investigators they feared Davis and misled law enforcement under his direction, including a group who assisted in removing Hughes’ possessions from his home. In total, authorities said they recovered more than $18,000 in Hughes’ property from Davis’ home.

Authorities also claimed Davis forged about $16,000 worth of Hughes’ checks for moving Hughes out of his house and “property maintenance.” Those funds went toward planting the seeds of a business, the prosecution said.

“He was broke,” Elmore said. “He couldn’t even turn his lights on, but here comes the future. He took Hughes’ money to build the marijuana grow room.”

**snip
Prosecutors also claimed a trail of cellphone calls and texts highlighted the truths of witness testimony and traced Davis’ actions in the days and weeks after the killings of Hughes and Rhodes as investigators attempted to close in on Davis.

Davis previously was acquitted of stealing a 2008 Corvette from Hughes following his disappearance. Jurors on Monday found Davis guilty of 15 counts of robbery, theft and fraud to attain Hughes’ possessions, including first-degree premeditated murder of Hughes and Rhodes.
http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/barry-davis-found-guilty-in-double-murder-of-area-couple-1.479781?page=3

Indeed.  No mention of the dogs in the main thrust of the prosecution's case (from the first article):


"Prosecutor Bobby Elmore faced what seemed like an uphill battle since the bodies of neither Hughes nor Rhodes were ever recovered.

Elmore used bank account records, cellphone records and the lack of contact with friends and family to argue Davis killed the couple. Many family members were present Monday for closing arguments in the trial of Davis when Elmore made a final push to convince jurors that Davis killed the couple and robbed Hughes’ home “down to the very last salt shaker” in order to have enough money to assemble a marijuana growing business".

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #377 on: May 20, 2015, 09:55:30 AM »
Indeed.  No mention of the dogs in the main thrust of the prosecution's case (from the first article):


"Prosecutor Bobby Elmore faced what seemed like an uphill battle since the bodies of neither Hughes nor Rhodes were ever recovered.

Elmore used bank account records, cellphone records and the lack of contact with friends and family to argue Davis killed the couple. Many family members were present Monday for closing arguments in the trial of Davis when Elmore made a final push to convince jurors that Davis killed the couple and robbed Hughes’ home “down to the very last salt shaker” in order to have enough money to assemble a marijuana growing business".

So why were dogs used ?

There's a tough question . 8)-)))

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #378 on: May 20, 2015, 10:10:00 AM »
So why were dogs used ?

There's a tough question . 8)-)))

To look for forensic evidence - did they find any?

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #379 on: May 20, 2015, 10:11:37 AM »
To look for forensic evidence - did they find any?

The dogs indicate Alfred.

Then the forensic scientists do the analysis.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #380 on: May 20, 2015, 10:25:16 AM »
The dogs indicate Alfred.

Then the forensic scientists do the analysis.
And what forensic evidence did they find in this case that verified their alerts?

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #381 on: May 20, 2015, 10:35:31 AM »
And what forensic evidence did they find in this case that verified their alerts?

Well, why don't you obtain the full case files and let us know ?

Now remind me again alfred, why do police forces around the world use dogs ?

and let's face it, SY used dogs in Portugal when searching the sites for 'remains'.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #382 on: May 20, 2015, 10:44:14 AM »
Well, why don't you obtain the full case files and let us know ?

Now remind me again alfred, why do police forces around the world use dogs ?

and let's face it, SY used dogs in Portugal when searching the sites for 'remains'.

My answer hasn't changed since I posted it a few minutes ago - in cases like this to look for evidence.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #383 on: May 20, 2015, 10:47:02 AM »
My answer hasn't changed since I posted it a few minutes ago - in cases like this to look for evidence.

As was done in PDL.

Forensics, INCONCLUSIVE.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #384 on: May 20, 2015, 10:50:10 AM »
As was done in PDL.

Forensics, INCONCLUSIVE.
Certainly not conclusive of a dead body having ever been in situ either in the apartment or in the car, correct.  However Amaral states the dog alerts proved it.  What was he on? 

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #385 on: May 20, 2015, 11:04:33 AM »
Certainly not conclusive of a dead body having ever been in situ either in the apartment or in the car, correct.  However Amaral states the dog alerts proved it.  What was he on?

I am fully aware of that.

We already know he misunderstood the results.

However, they haven't precluded the the possibility of a body, have they ?

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #386 on: May 20, 2015, 11:12:44 AM »
I am fully aware of that.

We already know he misunderstood the results.

However, they haven't precluded the the possibility of a body, have they ?
Less than useless then these alerts aren't they?  What they are telling us is "there may or there may not have been a body present".  Well, I could have told them that from the comfort of my armchair, having never set foot in Portugal. 

Offline Lace

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #387 on: May 20, 2015, 11:14:58 AM »
I have taken this from a 2014 article about Cadaver Dogs -

Kip correctly identified the odours derived from decomposition and was not distracted by the “negative control” smells.  It was a successful demonstration.  But in the field, VR dogs can sometimes be distracted by “false positives”, such as dead animals, or even mushrooms, explained Lorna.  If she can arrive at a greater understanding of the chemistry of odours from human cadavers, then VR dogs can be extra efficient.


You see,  unfortunately the chemistry of odours from human cadavers still hasn't been scientifically discovered.   

Offline Lace

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #388 on: May 20, 2015, 11:20:00 AM »
Here is another extract from a 2014 article,   they still use pigs -


The research could also help with the training of ‘human remains detection canines’. ‘We know very little about what compounds or combinations of compounds are recognised by sniffer dogs,’ says  Williams. ‘Understanding this helps to improve their work in the field and with training aids. However, research on pigs as analogues for humans is compromised from the start. A human taphonomy facility (where the decomposition of human remains are studied) would boost forensic research.’

Offline Lace

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #389 on: May 20, 2015, 11:50:30 AM »
I have a question for anyone who can answer it.

I believe it was Martin Grime who said that a body starts to decompose immediately after death.

If that is so,   as some people have been resuscitated when they have died,   some even 20 minutes later is he saying that their bodies had started to decompose in that 20 minutes or so?