Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 835458 times)

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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #390 on: May 20, 2015, 12:19:51 PM »
"Decomposition begins several minutes after death with a process called autolysis, or self-digestion. Soon after the heart stops beating, cells become deprived of oxygen, and their acidity increases as the toxic by-products of chemical reactions begin to accumulate inside them".

http://www.memorialpages.co.uk/articles/decomposition.php
http://mosaicscience.com/story/what-happens-after-you-die

That should shed a little light on the matter.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #391 on: May 20, 2015, 12:27:24 PM »
I have a question for anyone who can answer it.

I believe it was Martin Grime who said that a body starts to decompose immediately after death.

If that is so,   as some people have been resuscitated when they have died,   some even 20 minutes later is he saying that their bodies had started to decompose in that 20 minutes or so?

That is the first time I have seen that question posed, Lace.

It is certainly a fact that studies (no Lyall, I don't have a particular cite as I am speaking generally ... but there are plenty of abstracts printed on the internet which will give you the gist of what is going on, if you care to read them) continue to take place to determine the various rates of decomposition of bodily organs and the order in which this occurs.

I think it is generally accepted that such decomposition starts at the moment of death ... and that is also subject of debate as far as organ donation is concerned in relation to being brain dead.

Perhaps the organs of people who have 'died' and been resuscitated did actually start to decompose but were not damaged because of speedy reactivation???

That's very probably nonsense ... davel is your man for an opinion on this, I think.

Very interesting point you have made though.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Angelo222

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #392 on: May 20, 2015, 01:04:19 PM »
I have a question for anyone who can answer it.

I believe it was Martin Grime who said that a body starts to decompose immediately after death.

If that is so,   as some people have been resuscitated when they have died,   some even 20 minutes later is he saying that their bodies had started to decompose in that 20 minutes or so?

Body decomposition after death depends on the surrounding environment and especially temperature.  The hotter it is the sooner decomposition will start and the faster it will be.

When the heart stops the body will slowly start its initial transformation to rigor mortis stage. The changes are very small to begin with but after say twenty minutes at normal room temperature the body cells will begin to break down irretrievably.  Very slowly to begin with mind.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 01:09:12 PM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Online Eleanor

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #393 on: May 20, 2015, 01:10:30 PM »

Roughly how long to Riga Mortis?

Offline Lace

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #394 on: May 20, 2015, 01:14:52 PM »
Body decomposition after death depends on the surrounding environment and especially temperature.  The hotter it is the sooner decomposition will start and the faster it will be.

When the heart stops the body will slowly start its initial transformation to rigor mortis stage. The changes are very small to begin with but after say twenty minutes at normal room temperature the body cells will begin to break down irretrievably.  Very slowly to begin with mind.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

Is this what the dogs would smell though?     

In my opinion,   early stages of decomposition would not give off a scent of death,    I would imagine it would be the gasses the dog smells,   these smells are not there for a couple of hours or so.

Offline misty

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #395 on: May 20, 2015, 01:18:21 PM »
What happens when a car accidentally drives into deep water?
It fills with water and sinks in about two minutes.
I posted a video by an expert proving this, he is in a car in a lake. You can see the car fill with water.
How does the water get in?

You are looking at things from the wrong perspective, having introduced both liquid & outside interference into the equation.
If I dispose of my washing machine into the canal, it will fill up with water & sink. However, if I fill the machine drum with water in the normal sense on dry land, it will not leak unless the seals are broken.
If you filled the interior of the Scenic with smoke in the car park, at what places would the smoke escape?

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #396 on: May 20, 2015, 01:22:34 PM »
Less than useless then these alerts aren't they?  What they are telling us is "there may or there may not have been a body present".  Well, I could have told them that from the comfort of my armchair, having never set foot in Portugal.

Indications alfred, indications.

Nothing else has come to light in this case.




Offline Lace

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #397 on: May 20, 2015, 01:24:25 PM »
There is also this -



A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonised human corpse. That suggests that the "bouquet of death" is discernible, but attempts to identify it have so far failed. Two of the by-products of decomposition, putrescine and cadaverine, have been bottled and are commercially available as dog training aids. But they are also present in all decaying organic material, and in human saliva.


Present in ALL DECAYING ORGANIC MATERIAL AND IN HUMAN SALIVA.    Well,   that really widens what cadaver dogs smell doesn't it.



stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #398 on: May 20, 2015, 01:26:09 PM »
There is also this -



A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonised human corpse. That suggests that the "bouquet of death" is discernible, but attempts to identify it have so far failed. Two of the by-products of decomposition, putrescine and cadaverine, have been bottled and are commercially available as dog training aids. But they are also present in all decaying organic material, and in human saliva.


Present in ALL DECAYING ORGANIC MATERIAL AND IN HUMAN SALIVA.    Well,   that really widens what cadaver dogs smell doesn't it.

Do you actually know what these compounds are or where they originate ?

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #399 on: May 20, 2015, 01:30:07 PM »
Do you actually know what these compounds are or where they originate ?

If you know, and have expertise is this area, then perhaps in the spirit of furthering knowledge in this forum, you might like to consider the approach of sharing your knowledge?


Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #400 on: May 20, 2015, 01:32:31 PM »
You are looking at things from the wrong perspective, having introduced both liquid & outside interference into the equation.
If I dispose of my washing machine into the canal, it will fill up with water & sink. However, if I fill the machine drum with water in the normal sense on dry land, it will not leak unless the seals are broken.
If you filled the interior of the Scenic with smoke in the car park, at what places would the smoke escape?

In broad terms and principle: Through any orifice of any size where the upstream pressure is higher than the downstream pressure. 

"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #401 on: May 20, 2015, 01:49:08 PM »
from the little information that is available I think it is impossible for the scent to last for 3 months outside in the flowerbed without physical remains being present...that blows a massive hole in the alerts

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #402 on: May 20, 2015, 01:54:21 PM »
from the little information that is available I think it is impossible for the scent to last for 3 months outside in the flowerbed without physical remains being present...that blows a massive hole in the alerts

The conclusion is only as reliable as the basic assumption.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #403 on: May 20, 2015, 01:54:41 PM »
So who's going to be the first one to make a bonfire in their car to see where the smoke comes out?

Offline misty

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #404 on: May 20, 2015, 01:56:17 PM »
In broad terms and principle: Through any orifice of any size where the upstream pressure is higher than the downstream pressure.

How can you equate that to cadaver odour emanating downwards through the door seal when there is no internal pressure? (genuine question as I was never great at physics)