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Offline Holly Goodhead

A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« on: April 18, 2021, 11:27:56 AM »
A significant part of the prosecution case focused on claims that LM reenacted the murder of Elizabeth Short known posthumously as "Black Dahlia".  I do not see any comparisons between the injuries sustained by ES and J J:

Short's severely mutilated body was completely severed at the waist and drained of blood, leaving her skin a pallid white.  Medical examiners determined that she had been dead for around ten hours prior to the discovery, leaving her time of death either sometime during the evening of January 14, or the early morning hours of January 15.  The body had apparently been washed by the killer.  Short's face had been slashed from the corners of her mouth to her ears, creating an effect known as the "Glasgow smile".  She had several cuts on her thigh and breasts, where entire portions of flesh had been sliced away.  The lower half of her body was positioned a foot away from the upper, and her intestines had been tucked neatly beneath her buttocks.  The corpse had been "posed", with her hands over her head, her elbows bent at right angles, and her legs spread apart.

I think it far more likely J J was attacked as a result of identifying as a Goth evidenced by her hairstyle, clothing etc similar to the murder of Sophie Lancaster:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Lancaster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmpn4F1nE74

Is this the reason J J's hair was pulled out and clothes removed ie articles that represent the Goth subculture?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 11:30:48 AM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Parky41

Re: A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2021, 12:14:54 PM »
A significant part of the prosecution case focused on claims that LM reenacted the murder of Elizabeth Short known posthumously as "Black Dahlia".  I do not see any comparisons between the injuries sustained by ES and J J:

Short's severely mutilated body was completely severed at the waist and drained of blood, leaving her skin a pallid white.  Medical examiners determined that she had been dead for around ten hours prior to the discovery, leaving her time of death either sometime during the evening of January 14, or the early morning hours of January 15.  The body had apparently been washed by the killer.  Short's face had been slashed from the corners of her mouth to her ears, creating an effect known as the "Glasgow smile".  She had several cuts on her thigh and breasts, where entire portions of flesh had been sliced away.  The lower half of her body was positioned a foot away from the upper, and her intestines had been tucked neatly beneath her buttocks.  The corpse had been "posed", with her hands over her head, her elbows bent at right angles, and her legs spread apart.

I think it far more likely J J was attacked as a result of identifying as a Goth evidenced by her hairstyle, clothing etc similar to the murder of Sophie Lancaster:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Lancaster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmpn4F1nE74

Is this the reason J J's hair was pulled out and clothes removed ie articles that represent the Goth subculture?


Perhaps it simply is what is was proven to be - That LM murdered his girlfriend in a fit of rage. That the reference was of similarities to Manson's depiction not of the actual murder of Elizabeth Short. That whilst no one physically saw LM view any of Manson's work there is no proof that he did not. This is akin to saying, he did not murder Jodi Jones because no one saw him do it.  And you are also forgetting that of real possibility. That there simply was no time to do more. LM needed to get his alibi set in place, he had no way of being able to spend his evening in this woodland finishing what he had started? Equally important is that he had a knife on him that was not capable of completing this 'copy cat' work of Manson's.

You are also forgetting other damming evidence. That of possession of this DVD after the murder. It matters not that this was some freebie, many magazines are purchased on the basis of the freebie within.  Of the real possibility that LM may have wanted this DVD as a replacement as with the knife and the parka - these clear keepsakes of having his work close to hand, the fantasy of replay in his mind?

Failing that we are still left, at the very very least left with this laddie, who showed absolutely no signs of trauma, upset at his girlfriend heinous death. That of 99% of the time there was no emotion or grief. That he would want to have a DVD of the horrific graphics of Manson of a girl murdered, of wanting an identical knife to the one that is still missing, of the parka. But as you rightly say, this is only one area of concentration in a trial that went of for 9 weeks.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2021, 01:01:49 PM »

Perhaps it simply is what is was proven to be - That LM murdered his girlfriend in a fit of rage. That the reference was of similarities to Manson's depiction not of the actual murder of Elizabeth Short. That whilst no one physically saw LM view any of Manson's work there is no proof that he did not. This is akin to saying, he did not murder Jodi Jones because no one saw him do it.  And you are also forgetting that of real possibility. That there simply was no time to do more. LM needed to get his alibi set in place, he had no way of being able to spend his evening in this woodland finishing what he had started? Equally important is that he had a knife on him that was not capable of completing this 'copy cat' work of Manson's.

You are also forgetting other damming evidence.That of possession of this DVD after the murder. It matters not that this was some freebie, many magazines are purchased on the basis of the freebie within.  Of the real possibility that LM may have wanted this DVD as a replacement as with the knife and the parka - these clear keepsakes of having his work close to hand, the fantasy of replay in his mind?

Failing that we are still left, at the very very least left with this laddie, who showed absolutely no signs of trauma, upset at his girlfriend heinous death. That of 99% of the time there was no emotion or grief. That he would want to have a DVD of the horrific graphics of Manson of a girl murdered, of wanting an identical knife to the one that is still missing, of the parka. But as you rightly say, this is only one area of concentration in a trial that went of for 9 weeks.

What I'm not forgetting is that the case against LM is wholly circumstantial. 

I hear tenuous links surrounding Marilyn Manson and Black Dahlia.  Unreliable witness testimony that changes with the wind.  And items, if they ever existed, that the proseuction were somehow able to choreogrpah into the case against LM on the basis that if they could be found they would link LM to soc forensicially ie the knife and parka.  All aided and abetted by the tabloid press.  How this case ever got to court I will never understand.

Contrast the above with the case of Sophie Lancaster where the perps were linked forensicially to the victims by dna, footprints in blood and recorded confessions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmpn4F1nE74

Did J J's assailant fly to and from the soc on a magic carpet?  Where are the footprints/tyre tracks? 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Brietta

Re: A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2021, 01:40:36 PM »
What I'm not forgetting is that the case against LM is wholly circumstantial. 

I hear tenuous links surrounding Marilyn Manson and Black Dahlia.  Unreliable witness testimony that changes with the wind.  And items, if they ever existed, that the proseuction were somehow able to choreogrpah into the case against LM on the basis that if they could be found they would link LM to soc forensicially ie the knife and parka.  All aided and abetted by the tabloid press.  How this case ever got to court I will never understand.

Contrast the above with the case of Sophie Lancaster where the perps were linked forensicially to the victims by dna, footprints in blood and recorded confessions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmpn4F1nE74

Did J J's assailant fly to and from the soc on a magic carpet?  Where are the footprints/tyre tracks?

How do you know what the jury did hear and what it didn't?  Do you have a transcript of the court proceedings?

Quite obviously you have no understanding of exactly what "circumstantial evidence" is. 

Please bear in mind police work in conjunction with circumstantial evidence was enough to convict Gilroy of the murder of still missing woman Suzanne Pilley.
Just as police work in conjunction with circumstantial evidence was sufficient to convict Mitchell of the slaughter of Jodi Jones.

Incidentally, both verdicts were I believe returned by a majority jury
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline William Wallace

Re: A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2021, 02:20:13 PM »

Perhaps it simply is what is was proven to be - That LM murdered his girlfriend in a fit of rage. That the reference was of similarities to Manson's depiction not of the actual murder of Elizabeth Short. That whilst no one physically saw LM view any of Manson's work there is no proof that he did not. This is akin to saying, he did not murder Jodi Jones because no one saw him do it.  And you are also forgetting that of real possibility. That there simply was no time to do more. LM needed to get his alibi set in place, he had no way of being able to spend his evening in this woodland finishing what he had started? Equally important is that he had a knife on him that was not capable of completing this 'copy cat' work of Manson's.

You are also forgetting other damming evidence. That of possession of this DVD after the murder. It matters not that this was some freebie, many magazines are purchased on the basis of the freebie within.  Of the real possibility that LM may have wanted this DVD as a replacement as with the knife and the parka - these clear keepsakes of having his work close to hand, the fantasy of replay in his mind?

Failing that we are still left, at the very very least left with this laddie, who showed absolutely no signs of trauma, upset at his girlfriend heinous death. That of 99% of the time there was no emotion or grief. That he would want to have a DVD of the horrific graphics of Manson of a girl murdered, of wanting an identical knife to the one that is still missing, of the parka. But as you rightly say, this is only one area of concentration in a trial that went of for 9 weeks.

Ok so getting a CD free with a magazine when there was absolutely 0 found before the murder either on his devices or anywhere in fact makes him the murderer lol? What about the 42,545 other people who bought the magazine? Did they do the murder too? What do you mean he had a knife on him? Your imagination not only deludes you that he was there but now you even know he had a knife on him? I honestly cannot believe how people like you cannot get past this media rubbish that was all fake news and totally disproved by lack of evidence. I can't disclose certain things on here or name people, but I can tell you one thing. It wasn't Mitchell.

Offline faithlilly

Re: A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2021, 02:50:37 PM »
An excellent discussion on the case from truly informed members. The discussion on the AB sighting is particularly interesting.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336768
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Parky41

Re: A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2021, 03:14:21 PM »
Ok so getting a CD free with a magazine when there was absolutely 0 found before the murder either on his devices or anywhere in fact makes him the murderer lol? What about the 42,545 other people who bought the magazine? Did they do the murder too? What do you mean he had a knife on him? Your imagination not only deludes you that he was there but now you even know he had a knife on him? I honestly cannot believe how people like you cannot get past this media rubbish that was all fake news and totally disproved by lack of evidence. I can't disclose certain things on here or name people, but I can tell you one thing. It wasn't Mitchell.

We know. It's rather shocking how one can become deluded into all sorts, isn't it? The podcast and joint theories, which have been firmly denied in discussion with Ms Lean as delusional, or is that mistaken? Or is Ms Lean back on board? Or of never being removed from that of JF not being on this bike, that he cut his hair off to look like someone else? Off with the evidence to a scrapyard and as you say "hey presto' gone? After all, she has only recently stated that JF gave a wrong description of himself? Perhaps she was on board with your theories after all.  Whose theory came first here though? Yours/CM/SL?

Ignore the mad theories for Just a moment, they appear to have overtaken every part of rational? These claims to solving a case in their multiplication of fallacy. A boy cutting off his hair to look like the killer? Really?

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2021, 03:35:34 PM »
Holly, you have a different bee in your bonnet about who committed the crime every time I look at this forum.  A few days ago you were trying to make a link between this case and another murder that happened in 1994, and seemed to think Christopher Halliwell was responsible, now you seem quite convinced Jodi was a victim of a Goth hate crime.  Could it be both perhaps?  Did Halliwell have a hatred of Goths as well as being a keen fisherman?  Perhaps you could check this out?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Parky41

Re: A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2021, 04:17:14 PM »
An excellent discussion on the case from truly informed members. The discussion on the AB sighting is particularly interesting.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336768

Quote
truly informed members.
[/b]

Indeed ;-) Noted that Ms Lean made a rather brief entry, some information passed over but has not 'stayed' around?  it was this very forum that highlighted to Ms Lean that of the presence of female DNA. Thanking the poster humbly for giving the answer to something that had been puzzling her. After publicly broadcasting wrongful/harmful information around this very subject.

Perhaps Ms Lean is too busy to stick around, or perhaps she would not stand up to scrutiny of the many questions that would no doubt be asked of her? The multi areas of information missing? One poster highlighted this, "not near enough information around the Mitchells"

They are however, mainly in agreement that Luke Mitchell will remain where he is until his time is served? The question however is how long will that time be once parole hearings begin? The earliest point for a hearing being around April 2024? I wonder how much of an effect these books, campaign, podcasts and so forth will have upon the decision made for release? This could seriously add to LM's time in prison rather than gaining him freedom at all?  He may never get out? Even if he were to admit guilt, the post mortem injuries on Jodi would still keep him in prison for a long time - He has nothing to lose in all that he has done/does?

Offline faithlilly

Re: A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2021, 04:28:20 PM »


Indeed ;-) Noted that Ms Lean made a rather brief entry, some information passed over but has not 'stayed' around?  it was this very forum that highlighted to Ms Lean that of the presence of female DNA. Thanking the poster humbly for giving the answer to something that had been puzzling her. After publicly broadcasting wrongful/harmful information around this very subject.

Perhaps Ms Lean is too busy to stick around, or perhaps she would not stand up to scrutiny of the many questions that would no doubt be asked of her? The multi areas of information missing? One poster highlighted this, "not near enough information around the Mitchells"

They are however, mainly in agreement that Luke Mitchell will remain where he is until his time is served? The question however is how long will that time be once parole hearings begin? The earliest point for a hearing being around April 2024? I wonder how much of an effect these books, campaign, podcasts and so forth will have upon the decision made for release? This could seriously add to LM's time in prison rather than gaining him freedom at all?  He may never get out? Even if he were to admit guilt, the post mortem injuries on Jodi would still keep him in prison for a long time - He has nothing to lose in all that he has done/does?

Do you know what I really like about the forum linked? That SL doesn’t drive the narrative but neither is she treated with the distain shown to her here. She is merely another source of information. It is, however, an excellent dissection of the flaws in the case and why Luke’s conviction should be considered unsafe .
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 05:06:56 PM by mrswah »
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline mrswah

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Re: A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2021, 05:26:01 PM »
An excellent discussion on the case from truly informed members. The discussion on the AB sighting is particularly interesting.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336768

Yes, I've read through the pages a couple of times. As you say, excellent site.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2021, 09:59:09 PM »
How do you know what the jury did hear and what it didn't?  Do you have a transcript of the court proceedings?

Quite obviously you have no understanding of exactly what "circumstantial evidence" is. 

Please bear in mind police work in conjunction with circumstantial evidence was enough to convict Gilroy of the murder of still missing woman Suzanne Pilley.
Just as police work in conjunction with circumstantial evidence was sufficient to convict Mitchell of the slaughter of Jodi Jones.

Incidentally, both verdicts were I believe returned by a majority jury

It isn't necessary to have a transcipt of the court proceedings to form an opinion when we have access to a concise summary by way of the CoA hearings:

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=26ab8aa6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=e2988aa6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7

John Scott QC @ 3.30:

https://www.my5.tv/murder-in-a-small-town-295ba2fb-90ef-4b1a-9465-10617f789c03/season-1/episode-2-7daa9d42-eaf4-4a10-9aa6-b3ea8501ffa6

"Circumstantial evidence is a number of different circumstances which taken on their own might mean little or sometimes nothing but when put together in a particular way point the finger towards the accussed". 

Pointing the finger at someone does not amount to conclusive guilt. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2021, 10:05:23 PM »
Holly, you have a different bee in your bonnet about who committed the crime every time I look at this forum.  A few days ago you were trying to make a link between this case and another murder that happened in 1994, and seemed to think Christopher Halliwell was responsible, now you seem quite convinced Jodi was a victim of a Goth hate crime.  Could it be both perhaps?  Did Halliwell have a hatred of Goths as well as being a keen fisherman?  Perhaps you could check this out?

You obviously missed my post between Haliwell and a Goth attack suggesting Peter Tobin might have been involved until someone pointed out he was in prison at the time of J J's murder.  Just putting it out there.  Tis a discussion board after all.  I'm now fixed on a Goth attack by unknown other(s) but will let you know if I change my mind.  Goth attack fits the soc imo.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 10:15:18 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline William Wallace

Re: A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2021, 10:49:11 PM »
We know. It's rather shocking how one can become deluded into all sorts, isn't it? The podcast and joint theories, which have been firmly denied in discussion with Ms Lean as delusional, or is that mistaken? Or is Ms Lean back on board? Or of never being removed from that of JF not being on this bike, that he cut his hair off to look like someone else? Off with the evidence to a scrapyard and as you say "hey presto' gone? After all, she has only recently stated that JF gave a wrong description of himself? Perhaps she was on board with your theories after all.  Whose theory came first here though? Yours/CM/SL?

Ignore the mad theories for Just a moment, they appear to have overtaken every part of rational? These claims to solving a case in their multiplication of fallacy. A boy cutting off his hair to look like the killer? Really?

It's not as bizarre as you might think. If he was never on that bike and I don't think he was, cutting his hair off wasn't going to get him arrested (and didn't of course), because he wasn't there and will have had an alibi on the night it happened and none of his DNA would be found obviously. Interesting that DNA belonging to SK was found and further down the line JF's, but zero from either of the 2 meant to have been on the moped. There is in fact NOTHING to prove GD and JF were up that path at all apart from their claims that they were. I do think though that GD was driving it with someone else on the back though, but not JF. JF was a "red herring", imo he shaved his own hair off so that he could claim it was him on the moped to avoid the real person being identified because that person also had short hair.

Consider this. Everyone knows GD and JF were less than helpful to the Court... "we don't remember anything about that day"......"we don't know where we were when the moped was seen at the V"....."we don't know why the moped disappeared without trace".  They weren't credible witnesses so their claim to being the people on the moped is not credible either.

As for my theory coming before Sandra's well no I'm not going to claim that, but as you say, there have been various things said over the past 2 or 3 years about whether it was GD and JF on that moped, but never a huge amount of discussion about it. The more I've analysed this case in detail, the more I've thought Mitchell didn't do it and the more I've thought all the lies told by other people are covering something up. Trying to decipher what is being covered up exactly is no easy task obviously, but none of these witnesses connected in some way to J gave statements which sounded believable. Some of them were even jaw dropping like ..."we don't know what we were doing when the moped was at the V".

When the search party went to look for J they walked up a creepy dark path to look for her with torches but walked right past someone's house Jodi had been found in 2 months earlier when she hadn't come back when she was supposed to. That is most definitely suspect. Nobody would do that, they would knock that door and ask if she was there. They also didn't phone around other possible places she could have been apart from the Gran's. Nobody would do that either. You would phone everyone first, even if you did it whilst walking to the path. They never phoned them at all. Far from LM "knowing where the body was", the above indicates very strongly that someone had already told Ju Jones Jody was dead behind the V up the path. The first place anyone would look would be the house she was found in the last time. You wouldn't walk right past the front door which they did and walk up a creepy path in pitch dark.

To be blunt, I find it utterly staggering that the above was not viewed by the Police as highly suspect. Although I think everyone knows by now they messed up this whole investigation from the start by contaminating the crime scene for 7 hours.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 10:10:55 AM by John »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: A Persepective The Jury Didn't Get To Hear...You Decide...
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2021, 11:01:11 PM »


Just removed lots of blank lines from the above.

William you seem to have this case all mapped out.  Are you able/willing to give us a motive?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 12:15:39 AM by Brietta »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?