Author Topic: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.  (Read 227580 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1125 on: July 10, 2015, 12:13:37 PM »
Isn't it wonderful that the PJ and SY were able to overcome all these terribly important some might even think myopic events and manage to find enough evidence to re-open the inquiry into Madeleine McCann's case.

HOLMES in conjunction with Oporto 'feet on the ground' seem to have been a wonderful combination in relation to 'reconstitution' of events.

Redwood and his 'forensic' examination of the timeline being an example. As has been pointed out, however, the times weren't exact, so there is a margin of error that can't be excluded whatever software you use. It also can't tell you why two men failed to see or hear a woman flip flopping past them.
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Offline Brietta

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1126 on: July 10, 2015, 12:36:27 PM »
Redwood and his 'forensic' examination of the timeline being an example. As has been pointed out, however, the times weren't exact, so there is a margin of error that can't be excluded whatever software you use. It also can't tell you why two men failed to see or hear a woman flip flopping past them.

Possibly it could be that the real detectives involved in searching for Madeleine McCann have gone beyond the obsessions of the primary botched investigation and are actively pursuing real evidence which may lead to the solving of Madeleine's case.

No SY have not been in touch to keep me informed before you ask ... just a logical deduction being made from the search to find the stranger who abducted Madeleine McCann.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1127 on: July 10, 2015, 01:03:34 PM »
Possibly it could be that the real detectives involved in searching for Madeleine McCann have gone beyond the obsessions of the primary botched investigation and are actively pursuing real evidence which may lead to the solving of Madeleine's case.

No SY have not been in touch to keep me informed before you ask ... just a logical deduction being made from the search to find the stranger who abducted Madeleine McCann.

That is real evidence from witnesses who were there. I thought this was an investigation into the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann not Abduction.

Simon Israel:

"Do you anticipate this being a long hard slog?"

DCI Redwood:

"We're working extremely hard on this case. We're absolutely committed to the work we're doing & we're fighting hard for Madeleine McCann. But yes it is a hard slog and we still have got some way to go."
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline G-Unit

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1128 on: July 10, 2015, 02:06:57 PM »
Possibly it could be that the real detectives involved in searching for Madeleine McCann have gone beyond the obsessions of the primary botched investigation and are actively pursuing real evidence which may lead to the solving of Madeleine's case.

No SY have not been in touch to keep me informed before you ask ... just a logical deduction being made from the search to find the stranger who abducted Madeleine McCann.

Is that real Portuguese detectives or real British detectives? Just asking as the Portuguese are, of course, the lead investigating authorities. I have not seen any reliable cites to say either are pursuing only the 'stranger abduction' theory.
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Offline mercury

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1129 on: July 10, 2015, 09:59:34 PM »
Think doesn't enter into it.

Perhaps Portuguese law will do the decent think and consign (Portuguese style!) "reconstitutions" to the history book of Portuguese law.

We can but hope ...

So you have knowledge that all such reconstitutions operated in Portugal have never brought any light to any case?
Or do you have knowledge that any have resulted in a miscarriage of justice?
Fact is, unless it was carried out, no one can say whether it was a help or a hindrance. It is risible that members of the group wanted in advance guarantees that it would be productive before they stopped their non cooperation.


« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 10:50:52 PM by mercury »

Offline Brietta

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1130 on: July 11, 2015, 09:04:15 AM »
One thing certain sure is that the tapas group will have researched exactly what 'reconstitution' was all about and took legal advice.

I find it rather touching that at a time when in Britain we had largely taken steps to iron out the Gene Hunt school of policing the sceptics are so determined that people should have thrown themselves into a system which was still operating from that handbook.

I know that is being unfair to Rebelo ... but the Tapas group were working from the experience of their treatment and what had happened to the McCanns ... and who can blame them.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 09:07:26 AM by John »
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Carana

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1131 on: July 11, 2015, 10:21:57 AM »
One thing certain sure is that the tapas group will have researched exactly what 'reconstitution' was all about and took legal advice.

I find it rather touching that at a time when in Britain we had largely taken steps to iron out the Gene Hunt school of policing the sceptics are so determined that people should have thrown themselves into a system which was still operating from that handbook.

I know that is being unfair to Rebelo ... but the Tapas group were working from the experience of their treatment and what had happened to the McCanns ... and who can blame them.

Although with hindsight unlikely uner Rebelo, I expect they had visions of a Thai beach-style one, with the world's media snapping away as Gerry is made to carry a life-size doll from behind the sofa, stuff it in the cupboard, then chuck it in the garden, then sprint to the beach with a life-size doll in his arms in a flak jacket and helmet.

Instead of openly disagreeing on whether the trio were standing in the street, would they have been made to pose for the cameras in a particular position so as to illustrate that it would have been impossible not to see Jane? How would they evaluate that it was impossible for the two men not to hear Jane in her flipflops? Who decides and on what basis? A sound recording wouldn't take into account the subjective perception (or rather lack of it) of two men engrossed in carefree banter. What if a gust of wind from the right direction didn't materialise to blow the curtains? Would that mean that it didn't happen?

Forensic software can presumably do much of this these days, although the PJ may not have had access to any at the time.

A potentially more interesting one would have been to establish a forensic timeline with pretend intruders attempting to enter and exit in between the comings-and-goings - and that's now been done.

More useful still would have been a full reconstruction back in May 2007 with OC staff, guests and everyone else known to have been in the vicinity while memories were still fresh.

I can imagine when such reconstructions could be useful, but not in this case.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 09:09:45 AM by John »

Offline John

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1132 on: July 12, 2015, 09:47:25 AM »
Posts relating to Joana Cipriano have been moved.

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6437.msg254357#msg254357
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1133 on: July 12, 2015, 09:50:20 AM »
Although with hindsight unlikely uner Rebelo, I expect they had visions of a Thai beach-style one, with the world's media snapping away as Gerry is made to carry a life-size doll from behind the sofa, stuff it in the cupboard, then chuck it in the garden, then sprint to the beach with a life-size doll in his arms in a flak jacket and helmet.

Instead of openly disagreeing on whether the trio were standing in the street, would they have been made to pose for the cameras in a particular position so as to illustrate that it would have been impossible not to see Jane? How would they evaluate that it was impossible for the two men not to hear Jane in her flipflops? Who decides and on what basis? A sound recording wouldn't take into account the subjective perception (or rather lack of it) of two men engrossed in carefree banter. What if a gust of wind from the right direction didn't materialise to blow the curtains? Would that mean that it didn't happen?

Forensic software can presumably do much of this these days, although the PJ may not have had access to any at the time.

A potentially more interesting one would have been to establish a forensic timeline with pretend intruders attempting to enter and exit in between the comings-and-goings - and that's now been done.

More useful still would have been a full reconstruction back in May 2007 with OC staff, guests and everyone else known to have been in the vicinity while memories were still fresh.

I can imagine when such reconstructions could be useful, but not in this case.

I think you will be hard pressed to find a claimed child abduction case where cooperating with police was conditional.  The British group should have been compelled to go back and take part in a reconstitution of events or arrested and charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice.  The Portuguese police should have pursued this issue more firmly but then their political masters needed a deal with the UK over other more important pressing matters and that unfortunately took precedence.

What price justice?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 10:15:41 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1134 on: July 12, 2015, 10:30:14 AM »
I think you will be hard pressed to find a claimed child abduction case where cooperating with police was conditional.  The British group should have been compelled to go back and take part in a reconstitution of events or arrested and charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice.  The Portuguese police should have pursued this issue more firmly but then their political masters needed a deal with the UK over other more important pressing matters and that unfortunately took precedence.

What price justice?

to arrest someone you need evidence... I would have thought you knew that. Your claims re political interference are ridiculous

Offline G-Unit

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1135 on: July 12, 2015, 10:52:39 AM »
I think you will be hard pressed to find a claimed child abduction case where cooperating with police was conditional.  The British group should have been compelled to go back and take part in a reconstitution of events or arrested and charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice.  The Portuguese police should have pursued this issue more firmly but then their political masters needed a deal with the UK over other more important pressing matters and that unfortunately took precedence.

What price justice?

The law isn't always about justice, though, is it? The cases where people got arrested for using 'unreasonable force' against intruders in their homes springs to mind.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1136 on: July 12, 2015, 10:57:53 AM »
The law isn't always about justice, though, is it? The cases where people got arrested for using 'unreasonable force' against intruders in their homes springs to mind.

the law is about justice...not always your own personal opinion of what justice means though
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 11:14:19 AM by Eleanor »

Offline Carana

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1137 on: July 12, 2015, 11:29:39 AM »
I think you will be hard pressed to find a claimed child abduction case where cooperating with police was conditional.  The British group should have been compelled to go back and take part in a reconstitution of events or arrested and charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice.  The Portuguese police should have pursued this issue more firmly but then their political masters needed a deal with the UK over other more important pressing matters and that unfortunately took precedence.

What price justice?

Such as?

Have you found anything in the statutes at the time that - as witnesses - they could legally have been compelled to go?

Offline jassi

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1138 on: July 12, 2015, 11:37:38 AM »
Such as?

Have you found anything in the statutes at the time that - as witnesses - they could legally have been compelled to go?

They shouldn't have needed to be compelled. As innocent bystanders, one might have expected them to be only too pleased to assist the investigation, wherever it led.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Carana

Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
« Reply #1139 on: July 12, 2015, 11:38:36 AM »
One thing certain sure is that the tapas group will have researched exactly what 'reconstitution' was all about and took legal advice.

I find it rather touching that at a time when in Britain we had largely taken steps to iron out the Gene Hunt school of policing the sceptics are so determined that people should have thrown themselves into a system which was still operating from that handbook.

I know that is being unfair to Rebelo ... but the Tapas group were working from the experience of their treatment and what had happened to the McCanns ... and who can blame them.

I had to google who Gene Hunt was.  8()-000(

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/7497633/10-best-Gene-Hunt-quotes.html

The first time I'd heard of "Life on Mars" was from RM:


ROBERT MURAT: At one stage I was taken to an area where they wanted to fingerprint me and take photographs and all that kind of stuff. And I think they were trying to disorient,er, me because they moved me around from room to room, hallway to hallway, corridor to corridor and it seemed very choreographed calling out, “Well, take photographs of him” and you know, he’s, er, “We want to send a team to Poland.” It was kind of a choreographed situation.

RB: What, to intimidate you?

ROBERT MURAT: Yeah, I think so. And it did intimidate me at the time. Its now that I realise what was going on. I had five people rushing into a room and, erm, and standing behind me and it felt very very ‘Life on Mars’. It felt very, er you know, erm, just very pressured.

RB: He was questioned for nineteen hours before he was released. The next day he returned to collect his belongings and Robert Murat says he met Goncalo Amaral, the lead detective.

ROBERT MURAT: He basically told me it was a game of two halves and as the night before I hadn’t confessed, erm, then, he would get me on the second half and he just kind of turned his back on me. He didn’t… He just… It seemed he didn’t care about the truth. That was the, that's how I felt.


http://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/transcript-of-panorama-madeleine-mccann/


In a different interview, he was quite positive about the GNR's efforts.