The Defence Will State Their Case

[justsaying]

I want CJ to speak up about what is held in his 2 witness statements, that he speaks of at The Leveson....

But that is me....

And why does he have to answer to you? You want him to speak up, you want him to go away and bury his head... You need to make your mind up... Whatever was said in those statements, I doubt it would have been anything in favour of your lovely, placid Tabak.

Seeing as though we are allowed to speculate - I think crying girl was another one of Tabak's victims, who did not want to go through the trauma of a trial but knew very much what he was capable of!

[justsaying]

Oh course that is true.... But seeing an image of the landlord everywhere they look will only add to their despair, will remind them daily, yearly of this tragedy.... They have their own triggers to remind themselves, they probably do not want to see CJ talk about said events ... Year in and Year out.... (imo)

How do you know? They could support him considering he is wholly innocent - I doubt they will ever forget what happened to their daughter, it will be with them every second of every day.

[justsaying]

You speak for a lot of people on here Nine - people you have never met.

[jixy]

You speak for a lot of people on here Nine - people you have never met.

Still hasnt answered me though despite it being her asking the questions. sums up this whole thread really 

[justsaying]

Still hasnt answered me though despite it being her asking the questions. sums up this whole thread really 

Perhaps ask her what the victims parents will think of it and she may answer in that context.

[Nicholas]

Oh course that is true.... But seeing an image of the landlord everywhere they look will only add to their despair, will remind them daily, yearly of this tragedy.... They have their own triggers to remind themselves, they probably do not want to see CJ talk about said events ... Year in and Year out.... (imo)

How will they see an image of the landlord everywhere they look?

They will no doubt hear or read about murders often. I suspect that will be more of a trigger to them?

IMO the mention of murder (and Vincent Tabak) will be more of a trigger than the name of CJ.

[jixy]

Nine  you asked me about media links when we were discussing Tabak the Chaplain and possible self harm. Now you have gone quiet. What is it that you were so keen to find out?

[justsaying]

IMO the mention of murder (and Vincent Tabak) will be more of a trigger than the name of CJ.

We agree on one thing at least!

[[...]]

Nine  you asked me about media links when we were discussing Tabak the Chaplain and possible self harm. Now you have gone quiet. What is it that you were so keen to find out?

 

That was what I meant....   I already realised you could only show me media link's about what had been said in regards Dr Vincent Tabak and any mental health issue or examination...

I nearly believed you had access to something concrete....

So where do we differ??

And don't say it just because I am weird.... We have already established that one.... 

[mrswah]

So, do we believe CJ did see/hear anyone near Joanna's flat, as he told the police?

I believe he did---why would he lie, and draw attention to himself?  In any case, he told several of his neighbours what he had heard/seen. I can also believe that he did not know whom he had heard/seen.


IMO, had he heard/seen VT, he would have recognised him. He had been his landlord for quite a while, and VT was strikingly tall, and had a foreign accent. Common sense tells me that he would have recognised him.


As far as I know, this sighting was not really investigated-----they arrested CJ instead! 


So, what are your views on this?  And, yes, I do think it is relevant to whether or not VT is guilty, if Joanna was with two other people that night.

[Nicholas]

IMO Tabak got a low sentence especially when compared with this case;

"A "sadistic" paedophile who was jailed for 32 years has had his sentence reduced.
Matthew Falder, a 29-year-old Cambridge graduate and geophysics researcher, was jailed in February after sharing abuse tips and images on the dark web. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-45875275

[justsaying]

So, do we believe CJ did see/hear anyone near Joanna's flat, as he told the police?

I believe he did---why would he lie, and draw attention to himself?  In any case, he told several of his neighbours what he had heard/seen. I can also believe that he did not know whom he had heard/seen.


IMO, had he heard/seen VT, he would have recognised him. He had been his landlord for quite a while, and VT was strikingly tall, and had a foreign accent. Common sense tells me that he would have recognised him.


As far as I know, this sighting was not really investigated-----they arrested CJ instead! 


So, what are your views on this?  And, yes, I do think it is relevant to whether or not VT is guilty, if Joanna was with two other people that night.

Yes I believe him - why wouldn't I? These people at the gate, is there any evidence they were there for Joanna? People pass my gate all the time, sometimes stop outside - doesn't mean they have anything to do with me. So no, I do not think it is relevant to Tabak's innocence at all - the man pleaded guilty to killing her. He had plenty of opportunity during his trial to say if he had been coerced/bullied/forced into saying it. He gave a very coherent version of events.

Tell me Mrswah, why do you think his confession is false? Why do you think he would give very good details of him being in her flat? (even if he did not mention the laundry) He did mention the coat stand. Why do people think his confession is strange anyway - people confess to crimes all the time. He even said himself that the reason he confessed was because he knew they had DNA evidence - this is strong evidence of his guilt, whether you want to accept that or not - he accepted it, strangely enough. And it has been pointed out time and time again on this forum that he was a highly educated man, not someone who was easily led or could be bullied into a confession... I honestly think crying girl was another one of his victims.

Also Mrswah - why do you think his family remain silent if this is such a miscarriage of justice? There are cases which are higher profile than this one but they still manage to speak out - any family would speak out if they thought a grave injustice had happened to their loved one. Even Tabak himself could speak out, despite what Nine thinks - people do it from our prison's all the time.

[mrswah]

Yes I believe him - why wouldn't I? These people at the gate, is there any evidence they were there for Joanna? People pass my gate all the time, sometimes stop outside - doesn't mean they have anything to do with me. So no, I do not think it is relevant to Tabak's innocence at all - the man pleaded guilty to killing her. He had plenty of opportunity during his trial to say if he had been coerced/bullied/forced into saying it. He gave a very coherent version of events.

Tell me Mrswah, why do you think his confession is false? Why do you think he would give very good details of him being in her flat? (even if he did not mention the laundry) He did mention the coat stand. Why do people think his confession is strange anyway - people confess to crimes all the time. He even said himself that the reason he confessed was because he knew they had DNA evidence - this is strong evidence of his guilt, whether you want to accept that or not - he accepted it, strangely enough. And it has been pointed out time and time again on this forum that he was a highly educated man, not someone who was easily led or could be bullied into a confession... I honestly think crying girl was another one of his victims.

Also Mrswah - why do you think his family remain silent if this is such a miscarriage of justice? There are cases which are higher profile than this one but they still manage to speak out - any family would speak out if they thought a grave injustice had happened to their loved one. Even Tabak himself could speak out, despite what Nine thinks - people do it from our prison's all the time.

Firstly, did he confess?  He apparently told the chaplain that he was going to plead guilty/change his plea to guilty, but that isn't quite the same as saying he killed Joanna (although I know that is what the papers reported).  So, once he pleads guilty, he then has to write a statement saying exactly what happened, so he accepts what his lawyer tells him to write, and then , very reluctantly, signs it in September, just before his trial is going to begin. He doesn't know what happened, because he wasn't there, hence all the questions he wasn't able to answer in court. He has never been in trouble with the police or the courts before, is completely thrown by having been arrested and charged, and has either become mentally ill since being on remand, or has given up, so goes along with everything, doesn't speak out because he doesn't think anyone will listen or believe him.

Ok, pure speculation, but thought out speculation, and I can just imagine something like this happening to somebody. Yes, I might be wrong, and he could be as guilty as sin------------but you did ask!!

[mrswah]

And, yes, he might be a highly intelligent man, in his field, but who says that a highly intelligent man can't be completely worn down by police questioning and being in prison?  Even CJ , another highly intelligent man, is on record saying how badly his three days in police custody affected him.

[mrswah]

As for the DNA, I would have expected there to be more, had VT killed Joanna and inflicted 43 injuries on her, and, as I have said previously, I would have expected DNA to have been found in both is flat and Joanna's, if the story he gave in court is to be believed. If we can't believe what he said in court, why should we believe his so called "confession"?