UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
UK and North American politics. => A look at British politics in the light of the decision to leave the EU. => Topic started by: Venturi Swirl on January 18, 2020, 05:50:10 PM
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I thought we could start a nice positive thread to highlight all the benefits we are enjoying and will enjoy as a country thanks to Boris and Brexit.
Let’s kick off with this one
“Luxury tour operators have recorded a “huge surge” in holiday bookings since the landslide Conservative general election win last month.
Wealthy travellers are splashing cash on lavish trips in record numbers with holiday companies reporting leaps of up to 500 per cent in inquiries for luxury trips.
Ampersand Travel says inquiries for holidays costing more than £50,000 have jumped by 27 per cent since the election, while another operator, Scott Dunn, saw its bookings jump 31 per cent last week as it recorded the busiest day in its 32-year history.
Travel industry bosses said yesterday that consumer confidence had been restored after Boris Johnson’s crushing defeat of Jeremy Corbyn and that wealthy travellers, who had been playing a game of “wait and see”, were booking holidays in their droves”.
Isn’t it marvellous news? The wealthiest citizens have their luxury summer holidays booked after months of indecision. Good news for us, and great news for the planet!
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I don't know what to say. France was always a good place to go if you didn't want to travel too far and wanted to briefly escape.
I live here which is an entirely different thing.
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Another Brexit Bonus - no more regulatory alignment with the EU which is great news for British businesses (apart from those ones for whom it will cause no end of problems and costs, as acknowledged by the Chancellor).
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Here’s one to delight the inhabitants of Brexitshire
Boris Johnson has promised easier immigration from Africa to help build stronger business links, as he pledged to put “people before passports” after Brexit.
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Here’s one to delight the inhabitants of Brexitshire
Boris Johnson has promised easier immigration from Africa to help build stronger business links, as he pledged to put “people before passports” after Brexit.
You have got to laugh !
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You have got to laugh !
Tears rolling down my cheeks as I read. what will these businesses be? guns? warheads ... Most African nations depend on handouts and charity workers to keep them alive fgs
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Yay, we must all prepare for border checks, despite constantly being told these would not be necessary by the Brexiteers.
Gove tells business to be prepared for checks at border after Brexit
The chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said: ”You have to accept we will need some friction”
The chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said: ”You have to accept we will need some friction”
PAUL ELLIS
Michael Gove has told businesses to prepare for “inevitable” border checks in the first official confirmation of how a “Canada-style” deal will lead to trade barriers after Brexit.
Mr Gove, the chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, yesterday told companies trading with the EU that there would be border checks for “almost everybody” after the transition period finishes at the end of the year.
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The Boris bounce didn’t last long, did it ?
The Firemen’s Union has called Johnson’s handling of the flooding around the UK as a shambles. The British travellers trapped on the cruise ship in Japan have said that they feel let down by the inaction of Johnson and his government on their behalf. Harry Dunn’s family are suing the Foreign Office. Priti Patel has been accused of bullying.
Not bad for only having been in power for a few months.
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The Boris bounce didn’t last long, did it ?
The Firemen’s Union has called Johnson’s handling of the flooding around the UK as a shambles. The British travellers trapped on the cruise ship in Japan have said that they feel let down by the inaction of Johnson and his government on their behalf. Harry Dunn’s family are suing the Foreign Office. Priti Patel has been accused of bullying.
Not bad for only having been in power for a few months.
Yeah but at least we’ve taken back control. Anyone seen a Brexit 50p yet? I can’t wait to get one in my change.
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Yeah but at least we’ve taken back control. Anyone seen a Brexit 50p yet? I can’t wait to get one in my change.
Taken back control and immediately handed it to Cummings and his group of weirdos.
By the time Johnson has devalued the working population of this country you’ll be lucky to even own a 50p piece 8(0(*
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Taken back control and immediately handed it to Cummings and his group of weirdos.
By the time Johnson has devalued the working population of this country you’ll be lucky to even own a 50p piece 8(0(*
How do you perceive Boris is doing that out of interest?
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How do you perceive Boris is doing that out of interest?
I’ll let this article explain....and look forward to your comments.
https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2020/02/20/tories-create-sweatshop-britain-with-zero-hours-increase-and-immigration-cut/
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https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-meets-flood-hit-21542935:
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Spamming threads with links without any comment is hardly conducive to good debate.
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Spamming threads with links without any comment is hardly conducive to good debate.
The links are the springboards to debate. Care to comment ?
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The links are the springboards to debate. Care to comment ?
Yes. What’s Jeremy Corbyn meeting flood victims got to do with this thread?
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Yes. What’s Jeremy Corbyn meeting flood victims got to do with this thread?
It’s interesting the contrast between the actions of a Corbyn and those of Johnson. Is he still MIA ?
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It’s interesting the contrast between the actions of a Corbyn and those of Johnson. Is he still MIA ?
The last time Boris visited those affected by the flooding he was roundly abused by everyone he came across, hence why he’s probably not that keen to repeat the experience.
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The last time Boris visited those affected by the flooding he was roundly abused by everyone he came across, hence why he’s probably not that keen to repeat the experience.
He took days to react then too. Why don’t you think Corbyn was ‘roundly abused’, on his visits what with him being so unpopular and all ?
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Ee bah gum lad, Boris gerrin' 'ammered..
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2019/nov/13/why-has-it-taken-you-so-long-boris-johnson-confronted-in-doncaster-over-floods-video (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2019/nov/13/why-has-it-taken-you-so-long-boris-johnson-confronted-in-doncaster-over-floods-video)
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He took days to react then too. Why don’t you think Corbyn was ‘roundly abused’, on his visits what with him being so unpopular and all ?
Probably because he’s not the PM, just an inffectual old man who can’t be held responsible for people’s problems.
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Probably because he’s not the PM, just an inffectual old man who can’t be held responsible for people’s problems.
Instead of an ineffectual, middle aged man who is the PM ?
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Instead of an ineffectual, middle aged man who is the PM ?
Ineffectual? So you don’t think Boris is able to affect any change to the country or the people in it?
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Ineffectual? So you don’t think Boris is able to affect any change to the country or the people in it?
Do you think he’s had a positive effect on the country so far ?
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Do you think he’s had a positive effect on the country so far ?
Did I say I did? Jeez Louise, learn to read what I write and understand it!
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Did I say I did? Jeez Louise, learn to read what I write and understand it!
I’m asking you a question...you do understand the function of a question don’t you ?
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I’m asking you a question...you do understand the function of a question don’t you ?
No, what you are doing is deflecting. Jeremy is ineffectual, Boris by dint of being PM and having successfully removed Britain from the EU is clearly quite effective. Whether that’s a positive effect or a negative one remains to be seen. Meanwhile, Jeremy fades away into obscurity....
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No, what you are doing is deflecting. Jeremy is ineffectual, Boris by dint of being PM and having successfully removed Britain from the EU is clearly quite effective. Whether that’s a positive effect or a negative one remains to be seen. Meanwhile, Jeremy fades away into obscurity....
Dear, oh dear....and round and round we go.
Let’s go from last to first. Corbyn has changed the Labour Party forever, not least by adding hundred of thousands of members to its ranks, and his influence will be felt long after he has relinquished power. Johnson’s reign, on the other hand, in the fullness of time will be seen as a rather shameful aberration when the country forgot what it was to be decent. As to leaving the EU, yes he is to blame....but if I was Johnson I would take ineffectual over guilt for the chaos he’s unleashed every time.
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Dear, oh dear....and round and round we go.
Let’s go from last to first. Corbyn has changed the Labour Party forever, not least by adding hundred of thousands of members to its ranks, and his influence will be felt long after he has relinquished power. Johnson’s reign, on the other hand, in the fullness of time will be seen as a rather shameful aberration when the country forgot what it was to be decent. As to leaving the EU, yes he is to blame....but if I was Johnson I would take ineffectual over guilt for the chaos he’s unleashed every time.
Oh, you are able to accurately foretell the future now are you? Who knew?!
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Oh, you are able to accurately foretell the future now are you? Who knew?!
I don’t think you have to be Mystic Meg to predict the havoc the jejune Johnson and his band of imbeciles will reek in the next five years....just look at his record as London mayor.
An excellent article published in the New Statesman in June 2016 shows just how easy it is to predict what Johnson will do next....he’s a creature of habit.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/06/boris-johnson-s-record-chaos-shows-why-we-should-fear-him-prime-minister
Boris Johnson’s record of chaos shows why we should fear him as prime minister
In London’s City Hall and in a slimmed-down Foreign Office, it was just possible to contain the damage. In Downing Street we may not be so lucky.
BY SONIA PURNELL
Imagine the scene. Standing on the steps of 10 Downing Street in the late summer downpour is the new prime minister, fresh from his triumphant seizure of the Conservative leadership. Thrusting his head forward in the bull-like stance once favoured by his hero Winston Churchill, Boris Johnson lifts his arm to wave to the news cameras. “Where’s Carrie?” a journalist shouts out, referring to the surprising absence of Johnson’s glossy young partner. It is not the only question that goes unanswered that day, or the weeks that follow. After the razzmatazz of the Johnson leadership campaign, little in the way of plans, let alone policies, have emerged from the uber-secretive new regime, even though the deadline to leave the EU on 31 October is now just three months away.
After a fortnight of promising to work “flat out” on finding a solution to the Brexit impasse, Johnson disappears on holiday abroad leaving chaos behind him. His premiership has already triggered a rash of official resignations and sackings, leading to the departure of most of those who dared speak truth unto power as well as virtually anyone senior who knew how the EU works and how to negotiate with it. Some of his cabinet places also remain unfilled after scandals involving a number of his more hardline appointments. Relations with Ireland dip even further after an imperialist “joke” falls flat, and the EU is hardening its position, spurred on by several European leaders’ visceral dislike of the new British PM. Johnson’s promised tax cuts for the well-off have yet to be funded, the economy is contracting and the markets are jittery with the pound in freefall.
Johnson’s exhortations to “just believe in Britain” — and a base-pleasing edict that fruit and veg are now only to be sold in pounds and ounces — are no longer having the desired effect, even with the reheating of some of his oldest and favourite jokes. His critics are dubbing him the “do-nothing” PM and even the Brexiteers are getting twitchy. And now there are rumours that, when parliament returns, Prime Minister’s Questions may be curtailed and press conferences cancelled. Could all this be possible?
Yes, even probable. At the time of writing, Johnson remains the favourite for the job. What possible revelation could derail his march to Downing Street, given that he has already been found repeatedly guilty of lying, cheating, disloyalty, laziness, indiscretion, incompetence and callous disregard for others, without any apparent ill-effect? MPs, who once spat blood at his very name, now line up to endorse his candidature. Perhaps they believe that only Johnson can magically save them from death by Brexit Party, but there have also been serious suggestions, albeit denied, of Team Johnson playing dirty, using private information against normally sensible moderates to extract their support.
If a Johnson premiership is almost inevitable after his near-twenty year leadership bid at least we have plenty of evidence to suggest what it will be like. Indeed, the scene portrayed above is in large part based on events following Johnson’s coronation as mayor of London in 2008. Take his record on respecting civil servants or making sensible appointments — surely key requisites in a prime minister overseeing Whitehall and appointing a cabinet. On his arrival at City Hall, Johnson referred to a ruthless round of sackings as “euthanising dogs in the manger” — a reference that civil servants at the Treasury, which Johnson has ominously started calling the “heart of Remain”, might like to ponder.
This was followed by an unedifying drama over his chosen replacements involving several high-profile resignations, accusations of racism and lying and at least one criminal conviction. Some of the positions remained unfilled for months. Eventually, one experienced civil servant resorted to taking him out to dinner and forcefully instructing him to get a grip and start acting like a mayor with a city of eight million people to run, rather than a personal fiefdom.
Even then, Johnson was often distracted, obviously bored by important briefings such as on policing or transport, and absent from his desk (including on a family holiday shortly after taking office and at the height of the staffing crisis). Fortunately, others eventually rode in to pick up the reins but the result of his disengagement was that many of London’s most persistent problems — pollution, homelessness, congestion — were left largely untended. Attempts to press him on his “do-nothing” regime were met by stonewalling or absences, media access was limited to reliably friendly reporters and virtually all press conferences (seen as difficult to control) were, indeed, abolished. Real accountability was almost impossible.
Any new prime minister will, of course, immediately have to face up to Britain’s gravest crisis since the Second World War, requiring exceptional personal qualities. But looking back at his record shows us that Johnson was woefully absent during the greatest challenge during his London mayoralty.
He refused to return from another holiday when intense rioting broke out in London in the summer of 2011, and when he finally did — hearing tales of appalling violence and destruction, he appeared out of his depth — he was caught on camera smirking inappropriately at the words of a hairdresser who had a brick thrown through her salon window by an angry mob and could not get in contact with the police. He had no comfort or answer to offer her and the mood began to turn against him — but exercising his genius for populist PR he swiftly brandished a clean-up broom in front of the cameras so that his failings were quickly forgotten in the cheers. When the cameras went, so did he. Similarly, today he has apparently little idea on how to repair the social wreckage caused by 12 years of austerity, other than perversely offering the top 10 per cent of earners an unfunded £9bn tax cut.
And when the prime minister rises to address the House of Commons, or the nation, we are surely entitled to expect to count on his or her probity (at least in large part). Yet how can we do so with Johnson — who was sacked from the Times for lying, from Michael Howard’s shadow ministerial team for lying, was reprimanded by the UK Statistics Authority and the Commons home affairs committee for lying when he was mayor, and who even lied about voting in the recent local elections (tweeting that he had voted in London where no contests were held). All that without even mentioning the untruth about £350m for the NHS on the side of the Brexit bus. When brave souls have tried to pin Johnson down about his dishonesty he has retaliated with a volley of abuse, calling his opponents stupid, frigid, Labour stooges or in need of “care in the community”. Mayoral Question Times were marked by his gurning lack of time or respect for the London Assembly, whose constitutional job was to hold him to account.
Whether the UK leaves the EU or not, we will need to spend the next decades repairing the bridges we have burned with our friends and neighbours. Outside the EU, we will be desperate for allies in an increasingly cold and hostile world. And yet the BBC fly-on-the-wall documentary Inside the Foreign Office — which Johnson understandably hates — shows us the bewildered faces of diplomats struggling to limit the damage he caused to his country abroad while foreign secretary. Lazy, undisciplined, inclined to make gratuitous offence through references to a colonial past here, or comparisons with Hitler’s Germany there, or suggesting that Libya could be the next Dubai once they “clear the dead bodies away”, he seemed determined to alienate as many foreigners as possible. Now we know that counterparts in Europe believe him to be so duplicitous and arrogant that they refuse even to be in the same room as him. Their dislike will hardly be tempered by his excitement at the idea of adopting a Trump-inspired approach to the EU, involving going in “bloody hard” and causing “all sorts of breakdowns, all sorts of chaos” to achieve his aims.
We normally elect prime ministers to avoid chaos, of course, yet on his track record Johnson seems to actively pursue it, including in his private life. In London’s City Hall and in today’s slimmed-down Foreign Office, it was just possible to contain the damage. In Downing Street we may not be so lucky — particularly if he sacks anyone who dares try.
BTW what do you think of his suggestion of building a bridge from N.I to Scotland ?
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Dear, oh dear....and round and round we go.
Let’s go from last to first. Corbyn has changed the Labour Party forever, not least by adding hundred of thousands of members to its ranks, and his influence will be felt long after he has relinquished power. Johnson’s reign, on the other hand, in the fullness of time will be seen as a rather shameful aberration when the country forgot what it was to be decent. As to leaving the EU, yes he is to blame....but if I was Johnson I would take ineffectual over guilt for the chaos he’s unleashed every time.
Do you honestly think Corbyn’s influence on the Labour Party has been positive? I mean, do you actually sincerely believe that Corbyn’s influence made the Labour Party more rather than less electable? Because yes, I will grant you - Jeremy has been effective in that respect - effective in ensuring we will have to endure the Tories for a further 5 years when they could have been ousted years ago under his (piss-poor imo) leadership. Boris is not to “blame” for taking us out of the EU, we had to leave, no two ways about it. He successfully implemented the result of the referendum, and for that he cannot be blamed but lauded, no matter which side of the fence you’re on. He won on that mandate and delivered, pure and simple.
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Every middle-class Corbyn supporter should do well to read this and digest it:
This new Tory coalition has deep foundations
Shared values mean the Conservatives won’t struggle to keep their new voters
Dominic Lawson
Sunday February 23 2020, 12.01am, The Sunday Times
Conventional wisdom is often right, in politics as in everything else. But that does not mean we should not question it. Since the Conservatives’ ballot-box triumph in December, the fashionable argument has been that it is impossible for the government to remain true to its “traditional” support in the affluent south while satisfying the demands of the former Labour voters in northern England and the Midlands who provided the electoral breakthrough.
This is a truism rather than a demonstrable truth. No one has been more assiduous in challenging it than James Frayne, founder of the opinion research group Public First and author of Meet the People. He has conducted countless focus groups in these former Labour heartlands, so his opinions have an empirical basis. In October he wrote on the ConservativeHome website: “I ran a detailed opinion research exercise for the Taxpayers’ Alliance to probe working-class attitudes to prospective tax policies . . . This research showed that working-class voters are much more supportive of business tax cuts than middle-class professional voters . . . For example, they strongly favour start-ups paying no corporation tax for their first three years of operation and tax cuts for small businesses and the self-employed . . . Fundamentally it is because working-class voters are much more concerned about their jobs.”
Not only did this “contradict popular wisdom at Westminster”, as Frayne observed: it reminds us of the popularity of Margaret Thatcher’s approach in her heyday — when the Tories also seized support from social groups previously regarded as unalterably Labour. In this context, Philip Cowley, professor of politics at Queen Mary University of London, provided an invaluable service on The Times website this month, analysing results in the 60 constituencies that Labour lost in December, some of them back to 1918. As he concludes, what happened in 2019 was far from unprecedented: “In most cases the position has returned to something similar to how things were in the 1980s.”
This was when Thatcher was honouring her commitment to sell council homes to tenants — the obverse of Theresa May’s fateful 2017 manifesto pledge to make people’s homes collateral for the costs of their social care. Even this did not alter the underlying trend. Every general election of the 21st century — all six of them — produced an increase in the Conservatives’ share of the vote. The crucial fact was how this was happening. In the wake of the 2015 election, when the Tories’ win defied expectations, I observed: “Over the three general elections of 2005, 2010 and 2015 . . . as the [Labour] leader seemed to move steadily to the left — from Blair to Brown to Miliband — its middle-class support held remarkably firm. Yet among what might once have been broadly described as “the working class”, Labour’s vote share plummeted.”
So although Boris Johnson’s success in 2019 is always referred to as “crashing through Labour’s red wall” — exemplified by his election stunt of driving a JCB through a wall of plastic bricks — it was anything but sudden. It much more resembled an electoral version of Jenga, in which the removal of one last brick causes the whole construction to collapse.
That last brick had Brexit written on it. But Labour’s edifice had already been fatally weakened by its assumption, most obvious under the Corbynite ascendancy, that the British masses are socialist who lack only consciousness of that fact. As the former Labour home secretary Alan Johnson (from an impoverished background) bitterly said to Momentum’s (privately educated) founder, Jon Lansman, in an ITV studio after the exit poll predicted the extent of the debacle for the Corbyn mission: “The working classes have always been a disappointment to Jon and his [Marxist] cult.”
Here, too, research by Public First gives empirical evidence of how big this (amazingly persistent) error is, and why there is no great area of conflict between those former Labour voters in the collapsed red wall and the views you would find among longstanding members of Conservative Party constituency associations. As Frayne — born in Nottingham and educated at a comprehensive — notes, his focus groups reveal these working-class voters to be eye-wateringly tough on matters such as border control, crime, welfare “scroungers” and national security. Indeed, on the conventional measurement of political opinion, they would be defined as more right-wing than the bourgeoisie of the southeast.
They certainly believe in the merit of hard work, and in being appreciated for it — which includes not being overtaxed. If you want a single insight into how little Labour has recognised this, the left-wing website Politics Joe has tweeted an interview with Rebecca Long Bailey in which the candidate for the party’s leadership declares: “If you get on under a Conservative government then good for you, because it was out of sheer luck.” So: not hard work; not talent; not long hours of dedication to the desire to provide the best for your family. Just luck. This is an emanation of Corbyn’s view that everyone is a victim of capitalism, apart from the “one per cent”.
Nor is this facile cod-Marxism rejected only by those in the Midlands and northern England who would have liked Labour to see them as the strong people they are, rather than victims: it is also true in London. The Trust for London (mission: “tackling poverty and inequality”) has just released a report on views about differences in wealth. Its focus groups, in the words of one of the trustees, Sonia Sodha, showed “most people do not view the wealthy in the way the left wishes [they] would . . . while they were less keen on those who did not earn their wealth, they admired people they thought had worked hard to make it”.
What seemed to surprise the researchers was that this view was held as much by focus groups of those on lower incomes as those on high salaries. Originally they planned to have those separate groups meet “to see if a common view could be reached”. But the researchers decided this was not necessary because “it became apparent that the discussion of lower-income, higher-income and mixed-income groups did not significantly differ . . . so there was no need to mediate contradictory or widely diverging opinions between these different demographic groups”. And there, in a (somewhat academic) nutshell, you have the refutation of the conventional wisdom that it is impossible for the government to serve both the “new” working-class Conservative voters in the towns of the former red wall and the southern bourgeoisie.
Of course, in time this government will do something to infuriate all of them. That piece of conventional wisdom is definitely true.
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Do you honestly think Corbyn’s influence on the Labour Party has been positive? I mean, do you actually sincerely believe that Corbyn’s influence made the Labour Party more rather than less electable? Because yes, I will grant you - Jeremy has been effective in that respect - effective in ensuring we will have to endure the Tories for a further 5 years when they could have been ousted years ago under his (piss-poor imo) leadership. Boris is not to “blame” for taking us out of the EU, we had to leave, no two ways about it. He successfully implemented the result of the referendum, and for that he cannot be blamed but lauded, no matter which side of the fence you’re on. He won on that mandate and delivered, pure and simple.
Yes I do think that Corbyn’s influence on the Labour Party has been positive but a better question would surely be that without Brexit, and a compliant media, would Johnson be in power now ? We saw it again and again after the election, past Labour voters, and some died in the wool Tories, expressing shame for the fact that they voted for Johnson but they wanted to get Brexit done.
I’m not sure why you, or anyone, would laud Johnson for bringing about, as one journalist put it ‘ the greatest act of national self-harm in postwar history’.
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Yes I do think that Corbyn’s influence on the Labour Party has been positive but a better question would surely be that without Brexit, and a compliant media, would Johnson be in power now ? We saw it again and again after the election, past Labour voters, and some died in the wool Tories, expressing shame for the fact that they voted for Johnson but they wanted to get Brexit done.
I’m not sure why you, or anyone, would laud Johnson for bringing about, as one journalist put it ‘ the greatest act of national self-harm in postwar history’.
I suggest you read the article above quite carefully which should help answer your first question. As for why Boris should be lauded for giving the people what they voted for - I think it’s self evident, don’t you?
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Every middle-class Corbyn supporter should do well to read this and digest it:
This new Tory coalition has deep foundations
Shared values mean the Conservatives won’t struggle to keep their new voters
Dominic Lawson
Sunday February 23 2020, 12.01am, The Sunday Times
Conventional wisdom is often right, in politics as in everything else. But that does not mean we should not question it. Since the Conservatives’ ballot-box triumph in December, the fashionable argument has been that it is impossible for the government to remain true to its “traditional” support in the affluent south while satisfying the demands of the former Labour voters in northern England and the Midlands who provided the electoral breakthrough.
This is a truism rather than a demonstrable truth. No one has been more assiduous in challenging it than James Frayne, founder of the opinion research group Public First and author of Meet the People. He has conducted countless focus groups in these former Labour heartlands, so his opinions have an empirical basis. In October he wrote on the ConservativeHome website: “I ran a detailed opinion research exercise for the Taxpayers’ Alliance to probe working-class attitudes to prospective tax policies . . . This research showed that working-class voters are much more supportive of business tax cuts than middle-class professional voters . . . For example, they strongly favour start-ups paying no corporation tax for their first three years of operation and tax cuts for small businesses and the self-employed . . . Fundamentally it is because working-class voters are much more concerned about their jobs.”
Not only did this “contradict popular wisdom at Westminster”, as Frayne observed: it reminds us of the popularity of Margaret Thatcher’s approach in her heyday — when the Tories also seized support from social groups previously regarded as unalterably Labour. In this context, Philip Cowley, professor of politics at Queen Mary University of London, provided an invaluable service on The Times website this month, analysing results in the 60 constituencies that Labour lost in December, some of them back to 1918. As he concludes, what happened in 2019 was far from unprecedented: “In most cases the position has returned to something similar to how things were in the 1980s.”
This was when Thatcher was honouring her commitment to sell council homes to tenants — the obverse of Theresa May’s fateful 2017 manifesto pledge to make people’s homes collateral for the costs of their social care. Even this did not alter the underlying trend. Every general election of the 21st century — all six of them — produced an increase in the Conservatives’ share of the vote. The crucial fact was how this was happening. In the wake of the 2015 election, when the Tories’ win defied expectations, I observed: “Over the three general elections of 2005, 2010 and 2015 . . . as the [Labour] leader seemed to move steadily to the left — from Blair to Brown to Miliband — its middle-class support held remarkably firm. Yet among what might once have been broadly described as “the working class”, Labour’s vote share plummeted.”
So although Boris Johnson’s success in 2019 is always referred to as “crashing through Labour’s red wall” — exemplified by his election stunt of driving a JCB through a wall of plastic bricks — it was anything but sudden. It much more resembled an electoral version of Jenga, in which the removal of one last brick causes the whole construction to collapse.
That last brick had Brexit written on it. But Labour’s edifice had already been fatally weakened by its assumption, most obvious under the Corbynite ascendancy, that the British masses are socialist who lack only consciousness of that fact. As the former Labour home secretary Alan Johnson (from an impoverished background) bitterly said to Momentum’s (privately educated) founder, Jon Lansman, in an ITV studio after the exit poll predicted the extent of the debacle for the Corbyn mission: “The working classes have always been a disappointment to Jon and his [Marxist] cult.”
Here, too, research by Public First gives empirical evidence of how big this (amazingly persistent) error is, and why there is no great area of conflict between those former Labour voters in the collapsed red wall and the views you would find among longstanding members of Conservative Party constituency associations. As Frayne — born in Nottingham and educated at a comprehensive — notes, his focus groups reveal these working-class voters to be eye-wateringly tough on matters such as border control, crime, welfare “scroungers” and national security. Indeed, on the conventional measurement of political opinion, they would be defined as more right-wing than the bourgeoisie of the southeast.
They certainly believe in the merit of hard work, and in being appreciated for it — which includes not being overtaxed. If you want a single insight into how little Labour has recognised this, the left-wing website Politics Joe has tweeted an interview with Rebecca Long Bailey in which the candidate for the party’s leadership declares: “If you get on under a Conservative government then good for you, because it was out of sheer luck.” So: not hard work; not talent; not long hours of dedication to the desire to provide the best for your family. Just luck. This is an emanation of Corbyn’s view that everyone is a victim of capitalism, apart from the “one per cent”.
Nor is this facile cod-Marxism rejected only by those in the Midlands and northern England who would have liked Labour to see them as the strong people they are, rather than victims: it is also true in London. The Trust for London (mission: “tackling poverty and inequality”) has just released a report on views about differences in wealth. Its focus groups, in the words of one of the trustees, Sonia Sodha, showed “most people do not view the wealthy in the way the left wishes [they] would . . . while they were less keen on those who did not earn their wealth, they admired people they thought had worked hard to make it”.
What seemed to surprise the researchers was that this view was held as much by focus groups of those on lower incomes as those on high salaries. Originally they planned to have those separate groups meet “to see if a common view could be reached”. But the researchers decided this was not necessary because “it became apparent that the discussion of lower-income, higher-income and mixed-income groups did not significantly differ . . . so there was no need to mediate contradictory or widely diverging opinions between these different demographic groups”. And there, in a (somewhat academic) nutshell, you have the refutation of the conventional wisdom that it is impossible for the government to serve both the “new” working-class Conservative voters in the towns of the former red wall and the southern bourgeoisie.
Of course, in time this government will do something to infuriate all of them. That piece of conventional wisdom is definitely true.
“
Of course, in time this government will do something to infuriate all of them. That piece of conventional wisdom is definitely true.”
And on that I can definitely agree Dominic.
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I suggest you read the article above quite carefully which should help answer your first question. As for why Boris should be lauded for giving the people what they voted for - I think it’s self evident, don’t you?
Lauded ? Lest we forget the lessons of history.
‘We must learn to accept the difficult truth that Hitler’s regime was the most popular government in German history; yet we know as well that few Germans after the war would confess having given any loyalty to the Nazi movement. This was not a lie in the soul of the German nation; it was a part of a collective delusion that all the fascist movements brought upon their followings. It was as if the movements themselves, as things independent of the men that embodied them, were responsible for the things that happened.1
Gilbert Allardyce, Historian, 1971
Well-publicized among Germans, already before Hitler came to power and during a period when he still depended on their consent rather than coercion, were the many actual deeds of butchery.... Some day the same Germans, now cheering Hitler’s strut into Paris, will say to their American friends and to their brave German anti-Nazi friends: “We did not know what went on, we did not know” and when that day of know-nothing comes, there will be laughter in hell.2
Peter Viereck, German-American Scholar, 1940
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“
Of course, in time this government will do something to infuriate all of them. That piece of conventional wisdom is definitely true.”
And on that I can definitely agree Dominic.
So tell me why you disagree with the rest of the piece then. I look forward to your earnest rebuttal of all the points he has made.
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Lauded ? Lest we forget the lessons of history.
‘We must learn to accept the difficult truth that Hitler’s regime was the most popular government in German history; yet we know as well that few Germans after the war would confess having given any loyalty to the Nazi movement. This was not a lie in the soul of the German nation; it was a part of a collective delusion that all the fascist movements brought upon their followings. It was as if the movements themselves, as things independent of the men that embodied them, were responsible for the things that happened.1
Gilbert Allardyce, Historian, 1971
Well-publicized among Germans, already before Hitler came to power and during a period when he still depended on their consent rather than coercion, were the many actual deeds of butchery.... Some day the same Germans, now cheering Hitler’s strut into Paris, will say to their American friends and to their brave German anti-Nazi friends: “We did not know what went on, we did not know” and when that day of know-nothing comes, there will be laughter in hell.2
Peter Viereck, German-American Scholar, 1940
Oh for god’s sake, you really are taking Godwin’s Law to the absolute limit and beyond by comparing the Brexit referendum with Hitler and the Nazis. It’s almost comical.
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Here’s a question for you Faithlilly, now please answer honestly. If Remain had won the Referendum 52 to 48 would you consider that it was the will of the British people or would you have supported the Leave side’s right to push through Brexit regardless?
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So tell me why you disagree with the rest of the piece then. I look forward to your earnest rebuttal of all the points he has made.
I think he makes some pertinent points....especially that the rot for Labour didn’t start with Corbyn.
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Oh for god’s sake, you really are taking Godwin’s Law to the absolute limit and beyond by comparing the Brexit referendum with Hitler and the Nazis. It’s almost comical.
Hitler fitted the bill but I could have quoted any populist leader.....Mugabe.....Amin....
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I think he makes some pertinent points....especially that the rot for Labour didn’t start with Corbyn.
Yet you seem to think the British public really warmed to Corbyn’s brand of socialism and really wanted to vote for him and his policies, except they were somehow brainwashed by the MSM into not doing so! This article makes it quite clear that this is a misguided belief.
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Hitler fitted the bill but I could have quoted any populist leader.....Mugabe.....Amin....
And your argument would have been equally as ridiculous. BTW, Mugabe was a Marxist Socialist, probably much admired by Corbyn in his early days.
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Here’s a question for you Faithlilly, now please answer honestly. If Remain had won the Referendum 52 to 48 would you consider that it was the will of the British people or would you have supported the Leave side’s right to push through Brexit regardless?
If Remain had won then we wouldn’t be inflicting this grievous harm on ourself and truth would have won the day so, no I wouldn’t have supported it.
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Yet you seem to think the British public really warmed to Corbyn’s brand of socialism and really wanted to vote for him and his policies, except they were somehow brainwashed by the MSM into not doing so! This article makes it quite clear that this is a misguided belief.
Not what I said.
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And your argument would have been equally as ridiculous. BTW, Mugabe was a Marxist Socialist, probably much admired by Corbyn in his early days.
But still a populist leader who became a dictator.
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But still a populist leader who became a dictator.
But you resolutely rejected the idea when the boot was on the other foot and it was suggested that Corbyn’s Labour Party could have gone the same way as other Marxist dictatorships.
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If Remain had won then we wouldn’t be inflicting this grievous harm on ourself and truth would have won the day so, no I wouldn’t have supported it.
Truth? No. Opinion, yes. You a hypocrite of the highest order then, IMO.
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Not what I said.
What do you say then?
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But you resolutely rejected the idea when the boot was on the other foot and it was suggested that Corbyn’s Labour Party could have gone the same way as other Marxist dictatorships.
Because there was no evidence for it. What Corbyn was promoting was social democracy, not Marxism.
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Truth? No. Opinion, yes. You a hypocrite of the highest order then, IMO.
So perhaps you can appraise me of the multitude of lies the Remain campaign told ?
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What do you say then?
Read back....it’s all there.
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Because there was no evidence for it. What Corbyn was promoting was social democracy, not Marxism.
Whereas you clearly see The Tories promoting National Socialism, then. I see.
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So perhaps you can appraise me of the multitude of lies the Remain campaign told ?
Grow up woman. Both sides had an agenda and pushed their versions of the truth. We have yet to discover what the truth is (and won’t do so for many years), and to claim that Remain represented the Truth is a load of old bollocks and you know it. You cannot have one rule for the Remain argument and one for the Leave, unless you are a massive, massive hypocrite who only believes in democracy when it suits you.
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Read back....it’s all there.
Do I really have to? Are you saying that the public hadn’t warmed to Corbyn’s brand of socialism and weren’t brainwashed against him by the MSM then?
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Whereas you clearly see The Tories promoting National Socialism, then. I see.
I think Johnson and his merry band of imbeciles see it as a means to an end...though to be fair I wouldn’t be surprised if the saner elements of the party...traditional, centrist Tories baulk at the idea.
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Grow up woman. Both sides had an agenda and pushed their versions of the truth. We have yet to discover what the truth is (and won’t do so for many years), and to claim that Remain represented the Truth is a load of old bollocks and you know it. You cannot have one rule for the Remain argument and one for the Leave, unless you are a massive, massive hypocrite who only believes in democracy when it suits you.
We already knew broadly what we’d get if we stayed in the EU, mostly more of the same so where was the dishonesty there ? Pointing out the Leave lies, £350million for the NHS, an influx of Turkish immigrants etc etc etc was a public service rather than a campaign.
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Do I really have to? Are you saying that the public hadn’t warmed to Corbyn’s brand of socialism and weren’t brainwashed against him by the MSM then?
My, my your hatred of Corbyn really is visceral.
There were several elements to Labour’s loss, one of them certainly was the smearing of Corbyn by the rightwing media, however that was only one element.
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I think Johnson and his merry band of imbeciles see it as a means to an end...though to be fair I wouldn’t be surprised if the saner elements of the party...traditional, centrist Tories baulk at the idea.
Your (soon to be) new leader warns against painting Boris and the Tories as clowns in today’s Observer. It’s perhaps time you upped your game in the debating stakes or at least provided a little consistency: imbeciles or Nazis? I don’t really think they can be both. You might want to consider the possibility that they are actually at neither end of these extremes, which would certainly imo be the less childish approach.
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We already knew broadly what we’d get if we stayed in the EU, mostly more of the same so where was the dishonesty there ? Pointing out the Leave lies, £350million for the NHS, an influx of Turkish immigrants etc etc etc was a public service rather than a campaign.
Well let’s see, you have told us that the statement “the worst act of national self-harm” from a Remain commentator is the truth. So, if it is not a lie then there will be proof of its veracity. Please now provide proof of all the harm that we as a nation have suffered since we left the EU.
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My, my your hatred of Corbyn really is visceral.
There were several elements to Labour’s loss, one of them certainly was the smearing of Corbyn by the rightwing media, however that was only one element.
There was no visceral hate in my post. I did not stoop to calling Corbyn an imbecile or Nazi. So I was right - you do hold the media accountable for Labour’s loss. What else?
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Your (soon to be) new leader warns against painting Boris and the Tories as clowns in today’s Observer. It’s perhaps time you upped your game in the debating stakes or at least provided a little consistency: imbeciles or Nazis? I don’t really think they can be both. You might want to consider the possibility that they are actually at neither end of these extremes, which would certainly imo be the less childish approach.
You can’t be an imbecile and a Nazis ? Have you seen an EDL member being interviewed?
Right to the end, when Jewish people were being torn from their families and communities, Hitler still had huge support throughout the country....support that enabled him in his horrendous enterprise....but it didn’t start there and much of what Johnson and his goon squad is doing now is straight out of the Goebels A-Z.
I find it hilariously ironic though that knowing what I know of Corbyn and you, Corbyn would be the first to risk his own freedom to protect those in peril while, depressingly, you’d simply stand on the sidelines, denying anything was happening at all.
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There was no visceral hate in my post. I did not stoop to calling Corbyn an imbecile or Nazi. So I was right - you do hold the media accountable for Labour’s loss. What else?
You did not call Corbyn an imbecile or Nazi because he is neither and as I have said, my opinion has been expressed many times already.....search it out if you are really that desperate to know.
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Well let’s see, you have told us that the statement “the worst act of national self-harm” from a Remain commentator is the truth. So, if it is not a lie then there will be proof of its veracity. Please now provide proof of all the harm that we as a nation have suffered since we left the EU.
So when did we leave the EU.....ah yes three weeks ago.
Whether it was “ the worst act of national self-harm” is still to be seen....£350 million for the NHS and a Turkish invasion are proven lies, lies perpetrated by Johnson and his band of rightwing imbeciles.
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You can’t be an imbecile and a Nazis ? Have you seen an EDL member being interviewed?
Right to the end, when Jewish people were being torn from their families and communities, Hitler still had huge support throughout the country....support that enabled him in his horrendous enterprise....but it didn’t start there and much of what Johnson and his goon squad is doing now is straight out of the Goebels A-Z.
I find it hilariously ironic though that knowing what I know of Corbyn and you, Corbyn would be the first to risk his own freedom to protect those in peril while, depressingly, you’d simply stand on the sidelines, denying anything was happening at all.
Your political arguments remind me alot of Rick out of the Young Ones. Ranty, immature and not very sophisticated. When you’ve stopped comparing everyone you don’t like with the Nazis then we can have a proper discussion, until then don’t expect me to take anything you say very seriously.
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So when did we leave the EU.....ah yes three weeks ago.
Whether it was “ the worst act of national self-harm” is still to be seen....£350 million for the NHS and a Turkish invasion are proven lies, lies perpetrated by Johnson and his band of rightwing imbeciles.
Exactly. So we don’t know if Brexit will prove to be a good thing or a bad thing yet. It’s too soon to be claiming that Remain had “The Truth” on their side, therefore (setting aside all propaganda from both camps) once again I ask you:
If Remain had won the Referendum 52 to 48 would you consider that it was the will of the British people or would you have supported the Leave side’s right to push through Brexit regardless?
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Your political arguments remind me alot of Rick out of the Young Ones. Ranty, immature and not very sophisticated. When you’ve stopped comparing everyone you don’t like with the Nazis then we can have a proper discussion, until then don’t expect me to take anything you say very seriously.
Which is hilarious coming from someone who would argue black was white just to keep me interested.
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Exactly. So we don’t know if Brexit will prove to be a good thing or a bad thing yet. It’s too soon to be claiming that Remain had “The Truth” on their side, therefore (setting aside all propaganda from both camps) once again I ask you:
If Remain had won the Referendum 52 to 48 would you consider that it was the will of the British people or would you have supported the Leave side’s right to push through Brexit regardless?
Your words ‘ Both sides had an agenda and pushed their versions of the truth. ‘ Was £350 million for the NHS the truth or a lie ? Was the threat that we’d be swarmed by Turkish immigrants the truth or a lie ?
Do you have dementia as I’ve already answered your question?
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Your words ‘ Both sides had an agenda and pushed their versions of the truth. ‘ Was £350 million for the NHS the truth or a lie ? Was the threat that we’d be swarmed by Turkish immigrants the truth or a lie ?
Do you have dementia as I’ve already answered your question?
No, I don’t have dementia, and that is why I wrote “once again I ask you”. You claimed that Remain had truth on their side and that meant you could indulge in double standards, ie: the double standard that would have permitted you to claim a winning vote for Remain was “the Will of The People” and deny Leave a second referendum. You then admitted that the truth is we don’t know what the truth is with regard to Brexit, thus shooting your argument in the foot. You have proven your hypocrisy with your answers and there is nothing more that needs to be asked or answered now, many thanks.
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Which is hilarious coming from someone who would argue black was white just to keep me interested.
“ Branding people you don't like ‘Nazis’ is infantile and dangerous.”
https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/06/07/everyones-turning-into-rick-from-the-young-ones/
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No, I don’t have dementia, and that is why I wrote “once again I ask you”. You claimed that Remain had truth on their side and that meant you could indulge in double standards, ie: the double standard that would have permitted you to claim a winning vote for Remain was “the Will of The People” and deny Leave a second referendum. You then admitted that the truth is we don’t know what the truth is with regard to Brexit, thus shooting your argument in the foot. You have proven your hypocrisy with your answers and there is nothing more that needs to be asked or answered now, many thanks.
My, my you really are tying yourself up into knots. The Remain campaign made no false claims as far as I know but as you say that both sides brought their own ‘spin’ ( I paraphrase you ) to things I look forward to you detailing the lies the Remain campaign propagated. Of course I have given you two of the most blatant of the Leave campaign...£350 million for the NHS and that we’d be swamped by Turkish immigrants...there was of course Gove’s ‘the easiest trade deal ever’ but although we can watch the havoc Brexit will bring played out before our eyes, the shambles of an immigration policy for one...one thing we can be sure of was if Remain had won it would have won fairly with people knowing what they were voting for instead of the morass of lies that lead us to Brexit.
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“ Branding people you don't like ‘Nazis’ is infantile and dangerous.”
https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/06/07/everyones-turning-into-rick-from-the-young-ones/
That is so funny....even your insults were written by someone else.
Isn’t Spiked partly funded by the Charles Koch Foundation?
https://www.desmog.co.uk/2018/12/04/spiked-lm-dark-money-koch-brothers
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My, my you really are tying yourself up into knots. The Remain campaign made no false claims as far as I know but as you say that both sides brought their own ‘spin’ ( I paraphrase you ) to things I look forward to you detailing the lies the Remain campaign propagated. Of course I have given you two of the most blatant of the Leave campaign...£350 million for the NHS and that we’d be swamped by Turkish immigrants...there was of course Gove’s ‘the easiest trade deal ever’ but although we can watch the havoc Brexit will bring played out before our eyes, the shambles of an immigration policy for one...one thing we can be sure of was if Remain had won it would have won fairly with people knowing what they were voting for instead of the morass of lies that lead us to Brexit.
No knot-tying here my dear. You really are deluding yourself if you truly believe there was no misinformation pumped out by the Remain side. I voted Remain remember but I am not sufficiently blinkered or suffering from such selective memory as to have forgotten some of the scare stories and lies (yes, lies) we were told would occur if the Leave vote won. Osborne threatened an emergency budget for one, to take place as a direct result of a Leave win. We were also told the country would be plummeted into a recession and 3 million jobs would be lost. Neither of these things have occurred. Can you really be so naive as to believe that there was no misinformation or propaganda on the Remain side, that Cameron was not talking about World War III, that Juncker was not talking about the complete collapse of Western civilization if the Leave vote won? I don’t know a single solitary person who voted leave simply in the belief that £350 million would be ploughed into the NHS or the threat of millions of Turks turning up on the doorstep. It was way more emotive than that for the Leavers I’ve spoken to. It was a belief that we had forfeited our sovereignty to the EU and a general dislike of EU rules, regulations and the “unelected bureaucrats telling us how to run our country” that were the reasons I heard from people I talked to about it. Your attitude that the Remain campaign was “The Truth” and the Leave campaign was “All Lies” is superior, self-righteous, simplistic and just plain wrong IMO.
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That is so funny....even your insults were written by someone else.
Isn’t Spiked partly funded by the Charles Koch Foundation?
https://www.desmog.co.uk/2018/12/04/spiked-lm-dark-money-koch-brothers
I’ve no idea, if it was does that make the comment invalid? I had the thought independently anyway, I just googled “Rick Young Ones and Nazis” and was amused to discover I wasn’t the only person who thought that way.
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No knot-tying here my dear. You really are deluding yourself if you truly believe there was no misinformation pumped out by the Remain side. I voted Remain remember but I am not sufficiently blinkered or suffering from such selective memory as to have forgotten some of the scare stories and lies (yes, lies) we were told would occur if the Leave vote won. Osborne threatened an emergency budget for one, to take place as a direct result of a Leave win. We were also told the country would be plummeted into a recession and 3 million jobs would be lost. Neither of these things have occurred. Can you really be so naive as to believe that there was no misinformation or propaganda on the Remain side, that Cameron was not talking about World War III, that Juncker was not talking about the complete collapse of Western civilization if the Leave vote won? I don’t know a single solitary person who voted leave simply in the belief that £350 million would be ploughed into the NHS or the threat of millions of Turks turning up on the doorstep. It was way more emotive than that for the Leavers I’ve spoken to. It was a belief that we had forfeited our sovereignty to the EU and a general dislike of EU rules, regulations and the “unelected bureaucrats telling us how to run our country” that were the reasons I heard from people I talked to about it. Your attitude that the Remain campaign was “The Truth” and the Leave campaign was “All Lies” is superior, self-righteous, simplistic and just plain wrong IMO.
The belief that ‘ we had forfeited our sovereignty blah blah blah ‘ was yet more lies peddled to the British public, who, still in mourning for the death of their empire, were easy fodder for the sneering Johnson and his ilk.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/07/boris-johnson-peddled-absurd-eu-myths-and-our-disgraceful-press-followed-his
The pound plummeted, the Prime Minister resigned, stock markets plunged and the UK began to unravel, as did the post-1945 world order. Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Isis were celebrating the Brexit vote but that didn’t stop our disgraceful national press from crowing. “Take a bow, Britain!” the Daily Mail declared. “So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, ADIEU”, the Sun quipped in a headline. The Daily Telegraph proclaimed the “birth of a new Britain”.
They and others – the Express, the Morning Star, several of the Sunday papers – were claiming victory: a victory achieved after a relentless campaign of lies and Soviet-style propaganda about the European Union that long pre-dated the referendum. Indeed, it was a campaign that began in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when Boris Johnson, who had been fired by the Times for making up a quotation, was the Telegraph’s correspondent in Brussels.
Johnson did not invent Euroscepticism but he took it to new levels. A brilliant caricaturist, he made his name by mocking, lampooning and ridiculing the EU. He wrote stories headlined “Brussels recruits sniffers to ensure that Euro-manure smells the same”, “Threat to British pink sausages” and “Snails are fish, says EU”. He wrote about plans to standardise condom sizes and ban prawn cocktail flavour crisps. He set up Jacques Delors, who was then the European Commission president, as a bogeyman and claimed credit for persuading Denmark to reject the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 with a Sunday Telegraph splash – “Delors plan to rule Europe” – that was seized on by the Nej campaign.
To Johnson, it was all a bit of a jape. “ was sort of chucking these rocks over the garden wall and I listened to this amazing crash from the greenhouse next door over in England as everything I wrote from Brussels was having this amazing, explosive effect on the Tory party – and it really gave me this, I suppose, rather weird sense of power,” he told the BBC years later.
That many of Johnson’s stories bore scant relation to the truth did not matter. They were colourful and fun. The Telegraph and right-wing Tories loved them. So did other Fleet Street editors, who found the standard Brussels fare tedious and began to press their own correspondents to follow suit. I know this because I became the Brussels correspondent of the Times in 1999 and suffered the consequences.
Soon, a Europe of scheming bureaucrats plotting to rob Britain of its ancient liberties, or British prime ministers fighting gallant rearguard actions against an increasingly powerful superstate, or absurd directives on banana shapes, became the only narratives that many papers were interested in. They were narratives that exploited our innate nationalism, distrust of foreigners and sense of superiority. They were narratives so strong that our political leaders mostly chose to play along with them.
The EU is arrogant, bureaucratic, wasteful and meddlesome. It desperately needs reforming. But post-Boris, its great achievements – cementing peace, uniting the continent, creating the world’s largest single market, enabling its citizens to travel and live anywhere they choose, busting monopolies, improving the environment – have gone largely unreported. Similarly ignored is that Britain has many natural allies in Europe and has enjoyed some significant successes: competition policy, free trade, eastward enlargement. The French now regard the EU as a plot to impose Anglo-Saxon economics on the continent. True, we lost the argument on the euro and the Schengen Agreement, but we won opt-outs.
With a few honourable exceptions – such as the Financial Times, the Times and the Guardian – the referendum coverage was merely a supercharged version of what had gone before. It was led by the biggest broadsheet (the Telegraph), the biggest mid-market paper (the Mail) and the biggest tabloid (the Sun). And it was based on myths: that we pay £350m a week to Brussels, that we can continue to enjoy access to the single market without freedom of movement, that millions of Turks are heading our way because their country is about to join the EU, that immigrants are destroying the NHS rather than keeping it going.
The coverage was designed to inflame xenophobia and our worst “Little England” instincts. Loughborough University found that 82 per cent of all referendum stories, adjusted for newspaper circulations, were negative. The conventional wisdom is that newspapers don’t matter any more but they do when just 635,000 votes for Remain instead of Leave would have averted this national catastrophe. They do when the press is a primary source of information for millions of Brits. They do when most of our papers have relentlessly portrayed the EU as the monster of Johnson’s fertile imagination, not just for a few months, but for more than two decades.
The referendum was a chance for our national press, particularly the tabloid press, to restore its standing after the phone-hacking scandal and to prove its continuing worth to the British people. Sadly, most newspapers chose wilfully to deceive, mislead and inflame. They decided to follow Johnson’s lead by peddling lies and phoney patriotism. They helped him to hoodwink the millions of poorer, less-educated Britons – those who will be the first to suffer from Brexit’s consequences – into voting against their own interests.
Johnson campaigned against a myth of his own creation, with the result that a mendacious pundit, one who achieved prominence by writing entertaining but dangerous nonsense, is the odds-on favourite to be our next prime minister.
Martin Fletcher is a former foreign editor of the Times
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I’ve no idea, if it was does that make the comment invalid? I had the thought independently anyway, I just googled “Rick Young Ones and Nazis” and was amused to discover I wasn’t the only person who thought that way.
Of course you did sweetie....of course you did....btw why would you google your own idea ?
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Of course you did sweetie....of course you did....btw why would you google your own idea ?
Why not? Think about it. How else would I have come across the link? Do you think I googled “apposite insults for idiots who keep banging on about Nazis” and came across it? No, you reminded me of Rick, I said so, and then googled Rick, Nazi, Young Ones, to find a suitable quote to illustrate my point. That’s how I came across the article.
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Faithlilly, you can protest all you want about sneering Boris and his imbeciles, the fact is he delivered on the result of the referendum and we are now moving forward. It’s quite possible even likely that we are moving forward in the wrong direction but that is what the people voted for and that is what needed to happen. What realistically was the alternative? We’d still be tying ourselves up in knots about the whole issue under Corbyn. What if he’d run another referendum and the majority for Leave increased by 2 percentage points. What then? Remember this man you admire so very much has been against the EU all his political life! Why? Why, if there is absolutely no merit in us leaving the EU would your most preferred PM ever be for it?
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Incidentally, you asked for examples of Remain lies, I provided examples of Remain lies, you ignored them. Do you now concede that there were lies on both side of the debate? If not, why not?
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Why not? Think about it. How else would I have come across the link? Do you think I googled “apposite insults for idiots who keep banging on about Nazis” and came across it? No, you reminded me of Rick, I said so, and then googled Rick, Nazi, Young Ones, to find a suitable quote to illustrate my point. That’s how I came across the article.
You really are needing to get out more @)(++(*
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Faithlilly, you can protest all you want about sneering Boris and his imbeciles, the fact is he delivered on the result of the referendum and we are now moving forward. It’s quite possible even likely that we are moving forward in the wrong direction but that is what the people voted for and that is what needed to happen. What realistically was the alternative? We’d still be tying ourselves up in knots about the whole issue under Corbyn. What if he’d run another referendum and the majority for Leave increased by 2 percentage points. What then? Remember this man you admire so very much has been against the EU all his political life! Why? Why, if there is absolutely no merit in us leaving the EU would your most preferred PM ever be for it?
Why do you still not get that the Labour Party is a democracy and the second referendum issue was not Corbyn’s to make and that the same arguments you make for the leave vote to be honoured also apply to the Labour Party, albeit on a smaller scale.
When you are not trying to point score I can see that you, like me, is concerned about the direction Johnson is pulling the country in. Shouldn’t that be our focus rather than this ’what if’ you indulge in every time Corbyn’s name is mentioned ? The vote has been honoured, can we move on ? The EU appear to be willing to play very hard ball with Johnson, there is every chance that by November that there will be a social democrat in the Whitehouse who will certainly not be as open to buying our treasured institutions. I think we have bigger things to worry about that the ex Labour leader.
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You really are needing to get out more @)(++(*
I’ve been out all day, how about you?
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Why do you still not get that the Labour Party is a democracy and the second referendum issue was not Corbyn’s to make and that the same arguments you make for the leave vote to be honoured also apply to the Labour Party, albeit on a smaller scale.
When you are not trying to point score I can see that you, like me, is concerned about the direction Johnson is pulling the country in. Shouldn’t that be our focus rather than this ’what if’ you indulge in every time Corbyn’s name is mentioned ? The vote has been honoured, can we move on ? The EU appear to be willing to play very hard ball with Johnson, there is every chance that by November that there will be a social democrat in the Whitehouse who will certainly not be as open to buying our treasured institutions. I think we have bigger things to worry about that the ex Labour leader.
Oh you deflected again. What a surprise. I’m very happy to move on, it’s what we all should have done years ago, and thanks to Boris we now can. Had Labour won we’d still be in agonising deadlock. Give thanks for small mercies!
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Oh you deflected again. What a surprise. I’m very happy to move on, it’s what we all should have done years ago, and thanks to Boris we now can. Had Labour won we’d still be in agonising deadlock. Give thanks for small mercies!
And what’s the bet you’ll be here two years from now bemoaning the nation’s choice.
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And what’s the bet you’ll be here two years from now bemoaning the nation’s choice.
I don’t think the nation made the right choice but they did make a choice which we now have to live with and make the best of. What alternative did we have?
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I don’t think the nation made the right choice but they did make a choice which we now have to live with and make the best of. What alternative did we have?
What did I say about the British masochistic mindset ?
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What did I say about the British masochistic mindset ?
I’ve no idea, what did you say about it?
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I’ve no idea, what did you say about it?
We don’t expect any better and therefore vote for the same old, same old.
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We don’t expect any better and therefore vote for the same old, same old.
Voting for Brexit is not voting for the same old same old. And in my opinion it’s not about not expecting better, or being masochistic, it’s about being conservative with a small c, fiscally prudent, pride in country, dislike of those who would seek to undermine our way of life and values.
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Voting for Brexit is not voting for the same old same old. And in my opinion it’s not about not expecting better, or being masochistic, it’s about being conservative with a small c, fiscally prudent, pride in country, dislike of those who would seek to undermine our way of life and values.
Undermine our way of life ? Life expectancy has fallen for the first time in a hundred years according to a report last week. There are 4 million children living in poverty. Of the British citizens living in poverty over half are either disabled or there is a disabled member in the household. The number of uses of Trussell Trust food banks has increased over this period from 41,000 to 1.2 million since 2010....this does not include smaller food banks. In 2010 there were 168000 people on zero hours contracts, in 2019 it had risen to 896000. Since 2010 while employment has risen, those jobs are paid less and are less secure.
So forgive me if your description of the British public brings a hollow laugh to my throat.
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Undermine our way of life ? Life expectancy has fallen for the first time in a hundred years according to a report last week. There are 4 million children living in poverty. Of the British citizens living in poverty over half are either disabled or there is a disabled member in the household. The number of uses of Trussell Trust food banks has increased over this period from 41,000 to 1.2 million since 2010....this does not include smaller food banks. In 2010 there were 168000 people on zero hours contracts, in 2019 it had risen to 896000. Since 2010 while employment has risen, those jobs are paid less and are less secure.
So forgive me if your description of the British public brings a hollow laugh to my throat.
OK, you describe the British public then. So far we’ve had “masochists”. Anything else? Do you realise how contemptuous you come across about the very same people you purport to care so passionately about? Or is it only those who voted Labour that get your sympathy and understanding?
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OK, you describe the British public then. So far we’ve had “masochists”. Anything else? Do you realise how contemptuous you come across about the very same people you purport to care so passionately about? Or is it only those who voted Labour that get your sympathy and understanding?
I think the British public are trusting even when they have no cause to be.
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I think the British public are trusting even when they have no cause to be.
I think you like Corbyn and his London Labour Luvvies don’t really understand the British public at all. Masochists and trusting idiots? How much more insulting can you get? Most Brits I encounter have a very healthy cynicism of politicians of every hue, and they especially mistrust those that promise them freebies galore with cherries on top.
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Here’s evidence of just how much the masochistic snd gullible British public trust their politicians
https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/trust-politicians-falls-sending-them-spiralling-back-bottom-ipsos-mori-veracity-index
Interestingly, Labour voters are more trusting of government ministers than Tory voters!!
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I think you like Corbyn and his London Labour Luvvies don’t really understand the British public at all. Masochists and trusting idiots? How much more insulting can you get? Most Brits I encounter have a very healthy cynicism of politicians of every hue, and they especially mistrust those that promise them freebies galore with cherries on top.
Yep as I said the past has convinced them that no politician will ever actually achieve a fairer society....it’s all too much to hope for....so they constantly vote for the devil they know. Of course it’s only really true in England, Scotland has only 6 Conservative MPs and NI none.
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Yep as I said the past has convinced them that no politician will ever actually achieve a fairer society....it’s all too much to hope for....so they constantly vote for the devil they know. Of course it’s only really true in England, Scotland has only 6 Conservative MPs and NI none.
Well Labour may as well pack it in now if that’s a fact. Or mount a coup. They’ve amassed quite an army after all, perhaps it’s time to erect the barricades and start a revolution. Keep the Red Flag flying!
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Yep as I said the past has convinced them that no politician will ever actually achieve a fairer society....it’s all too much to hope for....so they constantly vote for the devil they know. Of course it’s only really true in England, Scotland has only 6 Conservative MPs and NI none.
Scotland has only one Labour MP in Westminster.
An unbelievable fact considering the once huge vote Labour held here.
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Scotland has only one Labour MP in Westminster.
An unbelievable fact considering the once huge vote Labour held here.
Obviously the Scottish aren’t masochists or trusting idiots, unlike the dumb English!
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Obviously the Scottish aren’t masochists or trusting idiots, unlike the dumb English!
The English voters had no alternative to either Jeremy or Boris being elected as Prime Minister.
Both politicians are rather unpopular here.
Both are seen as taking their respective parties further to the extreme left/right.
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The English voters had no alternative to either Jeremy or Boris being elected as Prime Minister.
Both politicians are rather unpopular here.
Both are seen as taking their respective parties further to the extreme left/right.
What was your view of Ruth Davidson?
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What was your view of Ruth Davidson?
Apart from her anti independence stance which as a Unionist she was bound to be, I think she would have been a much more acceptable candidate as leader of the UK Conservative party.
However she was very anti Brexit so may not have been acceptable to the majority of English Conservative voters.
She was no fan of Boris............
I'm struggling to remember who has now been made leader of the Conservative party in Scotland but as I type I do remember .....Jackson Carlaw......seems too eager to toe the Boris line. IMO
The leader of the Scottish Labour party is Richard Leonard.
Quite an insipid leader. IMO
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Apart from her anti independence stance which as a Unionist she was bound to be, I think she would have been a much more acceptable candidate as leader of the UK Conservative party.
However she was very anti Brexit so may not have been acceptable to the majority of English Conservative voters.
She was no fan of Boris............
I'm struggling to remember who has now been made leader of the Conservative party in Scotland but as I type I do remember .....Jackson Carlaw......seems too eager to toe the Boris line. IMO
The leader of the Scottish Labour party is Richard Leonard.
Quite an insipid leader. IMO
I have to agree with you about Richard Leonard and unfortunately both of his predecessors. Unfortunately with the SNP so strong in Scotland it’s importance in the national debate is somewhat diminished.
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Good to know Boris’s little Boris is still fully functional and spurting healthy spermatozoa.
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Good to know Boris’s little Boris is still fully functional and spurting healthy spermatozoa.
A good day to bury bad news ?
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A good day to bury bad news ?
Every day is a bad news day these days.
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Every day is a bad news day these days.
Sadly true. It does demonstrate ,however, the contempt this current government holds its people in.
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Sadly true. It does demonstrate ,however, the contempt this current government holds its people in.
Are you a Jew now Faithlilly?
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Are you a Jew now Faithlilly?
This thread is about Boris and Brexit....what’s the relevance ?
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This thread is about Boris and Brexit....what’s the relevance ?
Just noticed your new avatar that’s all. You seem to be using a Jew to score a point. It seems you haven’t had enough discussion about Jews, Israel and anti semitism are are keen to resurrect the argument.
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Just noticed your new avatar that’s all. You seem to be using a Jew to score a point. It seems you haven’t had enough discussion about Jews, Israel and anti semitism are are keen to resurrect the argument.
No argument needed.
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No argument needed.
I view your avatar as being deliberately provocative towards me, he only person on this forum you have had any discussion with on the subject. How very childish of you.
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I view your avatar as being deliberately provocative towards me, he only person on this forum you have had any discussion with on the subject. How very childish of you.
Then you’d be wrong. I can’t see how a Jewish person protesting the killing of Palestinian babies in Gaza would ‘provoke ‘ you.
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Then you’d be wrong. I can’t see how a Jewish person protesting the killing of Palestinian babies in Gaza would ‘provoke ‘ you.
Are you telling me that had the subject of Jews, Anti-semitism, Gaza and Israel never once been broached on this forum, or if they had that everyone on this forum was in complete agreement with your views that you would still have felt the need to change your avatar from some “All Tories Are Nazis” avatar to this? Because frankly I don’t believe it if that is what you are saying.
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How about sporting an avatar of a Palestinian holding up a sign saying “Stop using children as suicide bombers”, though I doubt many Palestinians actually object to this.
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Are you telling me that had the subject of Jews, Anti-semitism, Gaza and Israel never once been broached on this forum, or if they had that everyone on this forum was in complete agreement with your views that you would still have felt the need to change your avatar from some “All Tories Are Nazis” avatar to this? Because frankly I don’t believe it if that is what you are saying.
I’m not telling you anything....this is a non-discussion.
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How about sporting an avatar of a Palestinian holding up a sign saying “Stop using children as suicide bombers”, though I doubt many Palestinians actually object to this.
Careful there VS, your prejudice is peeping through.
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Careful there VS, your prejudice is peeping through.
Whilst your pro-Palestinian propaganda is on full-beam for all to see.
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Whilst your pro-Palestinian propaganda is on full-beam for all to see.
Aren’t the Israeli government killing Palestinian babies then ?
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Aren’t the Israeli government killing Palestinian babies then ?
Arent the Palestinians forcing children to become suicide bombers then? Perhaps you can provide a link to show Israelis deliberately targeting Palestinian babies and then I will provide a link showing how Palestinians deliberately choose children to become suicide bombers, and how they launch missiles from densely populated areas (thus putting their own civilIns at risk) and how they creep into Israeil homes and deliberately slit the throats of babies, young children and their mothers? Fair dos?
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Arent the Palestinians forcing children to become suicide bombers then? Perhaps you can provide a link to show Israelis deliberately targeting Palestinian babies and then I will provide a link showing how Palestinians deliberately choose children to become suicide bombers, and how they launch missiles from densely populated areas (thus putting their own civilIns at risk) and how they creep into Israeil homes and deliberately slit the throats of babies, young children and their mothers? Fair dos?
A simple yes or no to my question will do.
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A simple yes or no to my question will do.
A simple answer would be yes, but that would not be telling the full story would it? But I guess you really don’t care about the complexities of the situation only the simple stuff, otherwise you might consider the answers to the questions I posed. I don’t suppose you would be able to answer THEM with a simple yes or no!
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A simple answer would be yes, but that would not be telling the full story would it? But I guess you really don’t care about the complexities of the situation only the simple stuff, otherwise you might consider the answers to the questions I posed. I don’t suppose you would be able to answer THEM with a simple yes or no!
Thank you for your answer which seems to concur with the gentleman in my avatar...a Jewish gentleman who is, I’m sure, as aware as you of the complexities of the conflict.
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Thank you for your answer which seems to concur with the gentleman in my avatar...a Jewish gentleman who is, I’m sure, as aware as you of the complexities of the conflict.
Now you can address my questions. Which of course you won’t.
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Now you can address my questions. Which of course you won’t.
Right again
All this fuss over an avatar.
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Right again
All this fuss over an avatar.
Which is of course why you chose it, why else?
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Which is of course why you chose it, why else?
Do you think that I think that you are that easy to manipulate?
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Do you think that I think that you are that easy to manipulate?
Well it had the desired effect so obviously- yes! Do you think I can’t read you like a book? We both know full well that your new avatar was chosen deliberately to provoke, just as your last one was, and the one before that. The last two choices were obviously aimed at provoking me, the only person on the forum with whom you seem interested in debating (or should that be baiting?) I wonder why the plight of the Palestinians is so dear to your heart, seemingly more important to you than the plight of any other peoples being oppressed worldwide (who never get a mention by you, or a well chosen avatar)? I think we both know the answer to that one too!
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Well it had the desired effect so obviously- yes! Do you think I can’t read you like a book? We both know full well that your new avatar was chosen deliberately to provoke, just as your last one was, and the one before that. The last two choices were obviously aimed at provoking me, the only person on the forum with whom you seem interested in debating (or should that be baiting?) I wonder why the plight of the Palestinians is so dear to your heart, seemingly more important to you than the plight of any other peoples being oppressed worldwide (who never get a mention by you, or a well chosen avatar)? I think we both know the answer to that one too!
Do you know how ridiculous you sound ?
BTW in case you haven’t noticed...there is no one else posting here, that’s why I debate with you.
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Do you know how ridiculous you sound ?
BTW in case you haven’t noticed...there is no one else posting here, that’s why I debate with you.
Kindly explain a) in what way I sound ridiculous and b) why you are bothering to debate with someone who sounds so ridiculous? Is your life really that empty?
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Kindly explain a) in what way I sound ridiculous and b) why you are bothering to debate with someone who sounds so ridiculous? Is your life really that empty?
All this over a teeny, weeny avatar.
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All this over a teeny, weeny avatar.
Well you achieved your aim, well done.
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Well you achieved your aim, well done.
No aim here.
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No aim here.
I tried very hard to see what the issue was with the avatar- someone showing his opinion on a poster- yeah now that is offensive to be fair how bloody dare he!
Mind you calling people who vote Tory- nazis is old hat and couldn't be further from the truth. Hitler actually was a great believer in his aryan race. he was a vegetarian, health promoter in a warped kind of way. He wanted his nation of people to be fit healthy and strong - he built great buildings motorways infrastructure-no wonder the people loved him (?) if he had just stuck to that he would have been a great leader of all time!...but then the megalomaniac- [ censored word]emitic went to war and let loose his murderous campaign on Jews, gypsies, homosexuals,communists (Bolsheviks) invalids, mentally retarded.
The tories do not have such policies for the people on the UK. so no comparison.
Mind you the Labour lefties (socialists in name) behavior could be compared to Stalin- who slaughtered/starved more millions than Hitler AND started his killing way before Hitler, he never gets a mention. Always Hitler a second fiddler.
They start with the children indoctrinating them to defy their parents/ become suspicious of other adults or opposing opinions... They are trained to spy on and report family members of 'crimes' is transphoic a crime? is it even a phobia? is climate change via human input a false to be challenged or shouted down by the kids?
... it starts off small!
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I tried very hard to see what the issue was with the avatar- someone showing his opinion on a poster- yeah now that is offensive to be fair how bloody dare he!
Mind you calling people who vote Tory- nazis is old hat and couldn't be further from the truth. Hitler actually was a great believer in his aryan race. he was a vegetarian, health promoter in a warped kind of way. He wanted his nation of people to be fit healthy and strong - he built great buildings motorways infrastructure-no wonder the people loved him (?) if he had just stuck to that he would have been a great leader of all time!...but then the megalomaniac- [ censored word]emitic went to war and let loose his murderous campaign on Jews, gypsies, homosexuals,communists (Bolsheviks) invalids, mentally retarded.
The tories do not have such policies for the people on the UK. so no comparison.
Mind you the Labour lefties (socialists in name) behavior could be compared to Stalin- who slaughtered/starved more millions than Hitler AND started his killing way before Hitler, he never gets a mention. Always Hitler a second fiddler.
They start with the children indoctrinating them to defy their parents/ become suspicious of other adults or opposing opinions... They are trained to spy on and report family members of 'crimes' is transphoic a crime? is it even a phobia? is climate change via human input a false to be challenged or shouted down by the kids?
... it starts off small!
Faithlilly will be SO pleased to have someone far less ridiculous than me to debate politics with *grabs popcorn*
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Faithlilly will be SO pleased to have someone far less ridiculous than me to debate politics with *grabs popcorn*
Faith can debate without name calling if the person debating is only giving a different opinion. She won't be offended- Unlike some on here,
*slaps your hand to make popcorn spill* heehee
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Faith can debate without name calling if the person debating is only giving a different opinion. She won't be offended- Unlike some on here,
*slaps your hand to make popcorn spill* heehee
bully.
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No aim here.
So you changed your avatar to this for no reason, it was a purely random choice, could have been a kitten, could have been a Love Is... cartoon, but it just so happened to be a picture of some anonymous bloke purporting to be a Jew carrying an anti-Israeli placard. Now what are the chances, eh?
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So you changed your avatar to this for no reason, it was a purely random choice, could have been a kitten, could have been a Love Is... cartoon, but it just so happened to be a picture of some anonymous bloke purporting to be a Jew carrying an anti-Israeli placard. Now what are the chances, eh?
Oh no the avatar had a point....it just wasn’t directed at you.
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I tried very hard to see what the issue was with the avatar- someone showing his opinion on a poster- yeah now that is offensive to be fair how bloody dare he!
Mind you calling people who vote Tory- nazis is old hat and couldn't be further from the truth. Hitler actually was a great believer in his aryan race. he was a vegetarian, health promoter in a warped kind of way. He wanted his nation of people to be fit healthy and strong - he built great buildings motorways infrastructure-no wonder the people loved him (?) if he had just stuck to that he would have been a great leader of all time!...but then the megalomaniac- [ censored word]emitic went to war and let loose his murderous campaign on Jews, gypsies, homosexuals,communists (Bolsheviks) invalids, mentally retarded.
The tories do not have such policies for the people on the UK. so no comparison.
Mind you the Labour lefties (socialists in name) behavior could be compared to Stalin- who slaughtered/starved more millions than Hitler AND started his killing way before Hitler, he never gets a mention. Always Hitler a second fiddler.
They start with the children indoctrinating them to defy their parents/ become suspicious of other adults or opposing opinions... They are trained to spy on and report family members of 'crimes' is transphoic a crime? is it even a phobia? is climate change via human input a false to be challenged or shouted down by the kids?
... it starts off small!
Hitler started his attacks on the disabled and the Romanies first because people really weren’t that bothered about ‘others’ who didn’t contribute to their society being targeted. That’s were the rot started...not the wholesale deportation of swathes of people in barred trains. The prototype gas chambers were used on these people, just to see if they worked. The campaign against the German Jews also started very soon after Hitler’s rise to power in 1933 with low level targeting through propaganda, through displacement to the Final Solution. This government have certainly used many of the ‘techniques’ of the Nazi Party, using rightwing media outlets to target ‘undesirables’ for example but I’m not suggesting that wholesale extermination is their aim...that would be daft.
Not sure what you mean about the Labour Party and Stalin but I’d be interested to know more.
And yes...I agree...it does start of small. Over a hundred thousand of this country’s most vulnerable citizens dead as a direct result of an ideological Conservative policy....but it’s easy to turn a blind eye when it doesn’t impact you...and that’s how it works.
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Oh no the avatar had a point....it just wasn’t directed at you.
Who then were you directing it at out of interest?
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Who then were you directing it at out of interest?
It wasn’t necessarily directed at anyone. Why are you still harping on about this ?
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It wasn’t necessarily directed at anyone. Why are you still harping on about this ?
Because I can.
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Hitler started his attacks on the disabled and the Romanies first because people really weren’t that bothered about ‘others’ who didn’t contribute to their society being targeted. That’s were the rot started...not the wholesale deportation of swathes of people in barred trains. The prototype gas chambers were used on these people, just to see if they worked. The campaign against the German Jews also started very soon after Hitler’s rise to power in 1933 with low level targeting through propaganda, through displacement to the Final Solution. This government have certainly used many of the ‘techniques’ of the Nazi Party, using rightwing media outlets to target ‘undesirables’ for example but I’m not suggesting that wholesale extermination is their aim...that would be daft.
Not sure what you mean about the Labour Party and Stalin but I’d be interested to know more.
And yes...I agree...it does start of small. Over a hundred thousand of this country’s most vulnerable citizens dead as a direct result of an ideological Conservative policy....but it’s easy to turn a blind eye when it doesn’t impact you...and that’s how it works.
We need to look a lot deeper into the psychology, ideology. Hitler made promises and of which he kept- to bring about a pride and strength to a very humiliated and weak almost bankrupt Germany. It was give a little to some take from others.
It wasn't quite as crude as you suggest. it was done slowly slowly. The murder of citizens started with state sponsored euthanasia. it was sold as a kindness to 'put to permanent sleep' those who are deemed as having a defective mental/physical capacity. This made sense- those poor souls-so no problem there for the populace. The gypsies (who are not not offended to be called gypsies) traveled around so no one would miss them- again no problem for the populace to accept all was ok. The war was revenge pure and simple, the gas chambers were all part of the plan but again many didn't know or would believe they existed- the populace was told they were going to work and live in different areas-no mention of killing or gassing. By the way the British used zyclon B in Their camps first world war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_concentration_camps
I would assume that if all this was told in a crude manner, before it happened the German populace would be horrified and would not be happy at all about it. Many Germans and Nazis helped German Jews by hiding them, adopting their children, writing forged papers etc Many people joined the nazi party as they thought it was for all good and it was as seen- until... so not all Nazis were murdering b........s- mainly Gestapo and SS had that temperament and remit of killing. It was seen as a far right wing party but there was moderates as well- who kept that hidden.
We as a nation are better educated and know our communities our country is not in the same mind set as the Germans- therefore, I believe your claim the Tories are acting like Nazis is wrong. People who are unemployed come from many different backgrounds why would they all be deemed as undesirables, more money and help with education is widely offered to those who are out of work. The Universal credit is a shameful, disgusting service. It was badly thought out and rolled out hurting many people who have disabilities of various levels. Not a Nazi thing at all. Just some group trying to have a fairer system on the put upon tax payers who can no longer afford to keep the millions to fund services for so many people especially those who cheat the system. And the influx of illegal immigrants- who then use tax payers money to exhaust a legal system by saying they are refugees. Some one has to pay! no point in taking money out of children's mouths to feed greedy selfish people.
So we look to the socialists- Labour? do they or do they not sing fly the red flag? a tribute to the brutal, murderous campaign by the red army. How did that come about? civil war- the poor against the rich? well that was the start, but then it was red army terrorising and slaughtering the poor. The same philosophy as Lenin and Stalin= left wing Marxists. INTRODUCING The thought police, the change in vocabulary, all small things telling the poor they will become better off with the rich out the way. And it did take many years for them to grasp they need rich people to create wealth, to pay the poorer to tax them to pay the very poor....Thats capitalism for ya!
"but it’s easy to turn a blind eye when it doesn’t impact you...and that’s how it works."
Yes indeed, and that is exactly what the labour party does- turns a blind eye to those who are in the receiving end of an impact. Which was brought about by Blair bloodied hands-slaughter of the innocents in Iraq.
It is the labour left who are calling the shots for all the Political Correctness and eco shite we are having to put up with.
https://schoolhistory.co.uk/notes/the-russian-civil-war/
The Russians also slaughtered 20.000.00 Polish high commanding Military personnel in Katyn, Russia - blamed it on the Germans- but eventually admitted it not long ago.
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We need to look a lot deeper into the psychology, ideology. Hitler made promises and of which he kept- to bring about a pride and strength to a very humiliated and weak almost bankrupt Germany. It was give a little to some take from others.
It wasn't quite as crude as you suggest. it was done slowly slowly. The murder of citizens started with state sponsored euthanasia. it was sold as a kindness to 'put to permanent sleep' those who are deemed as having a defective mental/physical capacity. This made sense- those poor souls-so no problem there for the populace. The gypsies (who are not not offended to be called gypsies) traveled around so no one would miss them- again no problem for the populace to accept all was ok. The war was revenge pure and simple, the gas chambers were all part of the plan but again many didn't know or would believe they existed- the populace was told they were going to work and live in different areas-no mention of killing or gassing. By the way the British used zyclon B in Their camps first world war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_concentration_camps
I would assume that if all this was told in a crude manner, before it happened the German populace would be horrified and would not be happy at all about it. Many Germans and Nazis helped German Jews by hiding them, adopting their children, writing forged papers etc Many people joined the nazi party as they thought it was for all good and it was as seen- until... so not all Nazis were murdering b......s- mainly Gestapo and SS had that temperament and remit of killing. It was seen as a far right wing party but there was moderates as well- who kept that hidden.
We as a nation are better educated and know our communities our country is not in the same mind set as the Germans- therefore, I believe your claim the Tories are acting like Nazis is wrong. People who are unemployed come from many different backgrounds why would they all be deemed as undesirables, more money and help with education is widely offered to those who are out of work. The Universal credit is a shameful, disgusting service. It was badly thought out and rolled out hurting many people who have disabilities of various levels. Not a Nazi thing at all. Just some group trying to have a fairer system on the put upon tax payers who can no longer afford to keep the millions to fund services for so many people especially those who cheat the system. And the influx of illegal immigrants- who then use tax payers money to exhaust a legal system by saying they are refugees. Some one has to pay! no point in taking money out of children's mouths to feed greedy selfish people.
So we look to the socialists- Labour? do they or do they not sing fly the red flag? a tribute to the brutal, murderous campaign by the red army. How did that come about? civil war- the poor against the rich? well that was the start, but then it was red army terrorising and slaughtering the poor. The same philosophy as Lenin and Stalin= left wing Marxists. INTRODUCING The thought police, the change in vocabulary, all small things telling the poor they will become better off with the rich out the way. And it did take many years for them to grasp they need rich people to create wealth, to pay the poorer to tax them to pay the very poor....Thats capitalism for ya!
"but it’s easy to turn a blind eye when it doesn’t impact you...and that’s how it works."
Yes indeed, and that is exactly what the labour party does- turns a blind eye to those who are in the receiving end of an impact. Which was brought about by Blair bloodied hands-slaughter of the innocents in Iraq.
It is the labour left who are calling the shots for all the Political Correctness and eco shite we are having to put up with.
https://schoolhistory.co.uk/notes/the-russian-civil-war/
The Russians also slaughtered 20.000.00 Polish high commanding Military personnel in Katyn, Russia - blamed it on the Germans- but eventually admitted it not long ago.
With the greatest respect MTI it would take me too long to unravel and answer the points in your above post so shall we just agree to disagree. Anyone who justifies the system that has, so far, contributed to over 100,000 deaths of the most vulnerable in our society is someone I’m afraid I’m not eager to debate with.
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https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/03/lost-decade-hidden-story-how-austerity-broke-britain?CMP=share_btn_tw
And yet we voted for more of the same.
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With the greatest respect MTI it would take me too long to unravel and answer the points in your above post so shall we just agree to disagree. Anyone who justifies the system that has, so far, contributed to over 100,000 deaths of the most vulnerable in our society is someone I’m afraid I’m not eager to debate with.
https://fullfact.org/health/austerity-120000-unnecessary-deaths/
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https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/austerity-tory-government-theresa-may-philip-alston-un-rapporteur-a8977251.html
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https://fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk-guide-facts-and-figures/
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With the greatest respect MTI it would take me too long to unravel and answer the points in your above post so shall we just agree to disagree. Anyone who justifies the system that has, so far, contributed to over 100,000 deaths of the most vulnerable in our society is someone I’m afraid I’m not eager to debate with.
I'm not sure I did not justify anyone at all. We only disagree on the causes/contributing factors and unlike you, I don't support any political party.
I also pointed out, as you did ask, why people why calling people Nazis from a socialist/communist view point, isn't always as insulting as it is intended.
I pointed out many Germans,German soldiers and those who were lay members to the Nazi Party didn't all belong to the SS or the gestapo.
I pointed out that the red flag flying labour party associated with the uglier side (which is never mentioned) of communism dressed up as a nice thing by nice people. We see it from their stance on many issues.
So the choice is Nazi vs Stalin aka Tory vs Labour if we want to pin names on people.
I don't take sides -I comment on issues which I feel should be debated.
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https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/austerity-tory-government-theresa-may-philip-alston-un-rapporteur-a8977251.html
Just read this bit.... "I FOUND"
"I found 14 million people living in poverty, rising infant mortality rates, falling life expectancy for some groups, foodbanks springing up everywhere, rising homelessness, and overloaded and struggling schools and police services. Most of these problems are the direct result of government policies. "
I Ask Two questions:
where did you find?
What is your solution?
I see for my self the abject poverty not only of life necessities, food, clothing, water and heating/shelter from the elements. But of spirit, lack of ambition and motivation by a great many talented people; young and older being swept up as they are brow beaten by a minority.
I don't need a 'journalist' to tell me- it isn't news. Is this newspaper prepared to accept that immigration has NOT changed or exasperated the situation? Oh how can that be we are a rich country- so all those seeking to rob it blind tell us.
Over 60 million residents in this country that are accounted for- How many millions in the slave trade? Pimps, Gang masters who control/restrain and do not pay money to workers- who work very long and difficult jobs.
Oh who is going to pick our friut and carrots if not the immigrants- oh don't worry, we have slaves that do that anyway!
How many failed asylum seekers. being housed when families with working parents can't get housing?
I could go on, but why bother. other people have their own ideas who is killing the population by stealth.
I have one more question ... why do you think tax paying people, who struggle to make ends meet, should give up much needed money for their own families to those who don't deserve it.
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Just read this bit.... "I FOUND"
"I found 14 million people living in poverty, rising infant mortality rates, falling life expectancy for some groups, foodbanks springing up everywhere, rising homelessness, and overloaded and struggling schools and police services. Most of these problems are the direct result of government policies. "
I Ask Two questions:
where did you find?
What is your solution?
I see for my self the abject poverty not only of life necessities, food, clothing, water and heating/shelter from the elements. But of spirit, lack of ambition and motivation by a great many talented people; young and older being swept up as they are brow beaten by a minority.
I don't need a 'journalist' to tell me- it isn't news. Is this newspaper prepared to accept that immigration has NOT changed or exasperated the situation? Oh how can that be we are a rich country- so all those seeking to rob it blind tell us.
Over 60 million residents in this country that are accounted for- How many millions in the slave trade? Pimps, Gang masters who control/restrain and do not pay money to workers- who work very long and difficult jobs.
Oh who is going to pick our friut and carrots if not the immigrants- oh don't worry, we have slaves that do that anyway!
How many failed asylum seekers. being housed when families with working parents can't get housing?
I could go on, but why bother. other people have their own ideas who is killing the population by stealth.
I have one more question ... why do you think tax paying people, who struggle to make ends meet, should give up much needed money for their own families to those who don't deserve it.
And that is exactly how the politicians divide us...the skivers and the shirkers narrative.
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And that is exactly how the politicians divide us...the skivers and the shirkers narrative.
The skivers and the shirkers do exist. To deny this is to deny the tax payers real power to ensure the money goes to the right causes.
However, Universal credit although hurting that group, it really is, they have flung the baby out with the bath water. they are hurting the very people they are trying help along with those cheats!
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The skivers and the shirkers do exist. To deny this is to deny the tax payers real power to ensure the money goes to the right causes.
However, Universal credit although hurting that group, it really is, they have flung the baby out with the bath water. they are hurting the very people they are trying help along with those cheats!
And what did you expect to happen ?
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And what did you expect to happen ?
Every ruling Government has done things which affected the poor/disabled and no more so that Phoney Tony and his gold digging buddies.
We have to accept some in poverty is self inflicted, it has to be looked at carefully. There just isn't enough money in the pot to pay for every one. This isn't a great system- it needs to be amended to protect the real poor.
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Every ruling Government has done things which affected the poor/disabled and no more so that Phoney Tony and his gold digging buddies.
We have to accept some in poverty is self inflicted, it has to be looked at carefully. There just isn't enough money in the pot to pay for every one. This isn't a great system- it needs to be amended to protect the real poor.
I have no time for Blair or very little praise for his actions in office but I have watched since 2010 the social care system in this country collapse due to underfunding. In the last ten years the Conservatives have done away with the Independent Living Fund which provided money for disabled people to live an inclusive, independent life. The money saved was given to individual councils to use for similar support but was not ring-fenced so basically financially strapped councils could do whatever they wanted with it. The Access to Work Scheme’s funding was cut so disabled people wishing to work were unable to get either the equipment or support they needed to obtain employment. The criteria for claiming DLA was made so restrictive that hundreds of thousands of genuinely disabled people lost their entitlement to the benefit. My friend who has MS lost her car, and her job, as a result of a reassessment...and she is barely able to walk.
But hey as long as those lazy shirkers are taught a lesson !
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I have no time for Blair or very little praise for his actions in office but I have watched since 2010 the social care system in this country collapse due to underfunding. In the last ten years the Conservatives have done away with the Independent Living Fund which provided money for disabled people to live an inclusive, independent life. The money saved was given to individual councils to use for similar support but was not ring-fenced so basically financially strapped councils could do whatever they wanted with it. The Access to Work Scheme’s funding was cut so disabled people wishing to work were unable to get either the equipment or support they needed to obtain employment. The criteria for claiming DLA was made so restrictive that hundreds of thousands of genuinely disabled people lost their entitlement to the benefit. My friend who has MS lost her car, and her job, as a result of a reassessment...and she is barely able to walk.
But hey as long as those lazy shirkers are taught a lesson !
I have similar stories about people who have been enslaved by poverty, treated cruelly by a bias system. decent hard working people who fell on hard times due to ill health/accidents/disability. I fight for them as does members of my family. I don't need to be convinced UC is a good thing. It could be if done properly. And it was the labour government that started with get the disabled out to work and off benefits in a pretend move to 'support' disabled people. Some were left destitute as they were deemed 'fit for work' but couldn't get employed!
In the meantime. Taxi drivers are claiming child tax/working tax credits by saying they only earn £150.00 per week! and big issue sellers get housing benefit and child tax relief.
There is only so much money in the purse- not enough to go around. so there really is no point in over taxing those who are left with debts, can barley make ends meet to pay for 'others' who shouldn't be here.
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I have similar stories about people who have been enslaved by poverty, treated cruelly by a bias system. decent hard working people who fell on hard times due to ill health/accidents/disability. I fight for them as does members of my family. I don't need to be convinced UC is a good thing. It could be if done properly. And it was the labour government that started with get the disabled out to work and off benefits in a pretend move to 'support' disabled people. Some were left destitute as they were deemed 'fit for work' but couldn't get employed!
In the meantime. Taxi drivers are claiming child tax/working tax credits by saying they only earn £150.00 per week! and big issue sellers get housing benefit and child tax relief.
There is only so much money in the purse- not enough to go around. so there really is no point in over taxing those who are left with debts, can barley make ends meet to pay for 'others' who shouldn't be here.
Instead of blaming these ‘others’ that you seem to focus on why not look at the real cause of working poverty, an right wing ideology that has been used to justify the brutal cuts we have seen over the last ten years but which has been roundly discredited by respected financial institutions.
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Instead of blaming these ‘others’ that you seem to focus on why not look at the real cause of working poverty, an right wing ideology that has been used to justify the brutal cuts we have seen over the last ten years but which has been roundly discredited by respected financial institutions.
There is a 'whole' and when it comes to spending all of the percentages of that whole must be included for decisions to be made. Ignoring them does not address the issues of which you are talking about.
You point out that I focus on certain issues. It is only because they are part of the problem which your favoured party should be addressing!
Over taxing the people to pay for things they do not want their money spend on is NEVER a good idea.
It upsets a great many people- they have a voice too and should have a say.
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There is a 'whole' and when it comes to spending all of the percentages of that whole must be included for decisions to be made. Ignoring them does not address the issues of which you are talking about.
You point out that I focus on certain issues. It is only because they are part of the problem which your favoured party should be addressing!
Over taxing the people to pay for things they do not want their money spend on is NEVER a good idea.
It upsets a great many people- they have a voice too and should have a say.
The biggest calamity in the last ten years for the vast majority of the nation has been the effects of austerity....and the immigrants didn’t cause that.
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Well it seems austerity is definitely over! I qualify for £3k of free money from the government to help my business through the Coronavirus months which is nice of Boris but won't make much difference really. Still, I can use it to go on a nice holiday when it's safe to do so.
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Another consequence of Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/14/coronavirus-vaccine-delays-brexit-ema-expensive?CMP=share_btn_fb
More deaths than necessary but hey at least we have our sovereignty.
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Another consequence of Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/14/coronavirus-vaccine-delays-brexit-ema-expensive?CMP=share_btn_fb
More deaths than necessary but hey at least we have our sovereignty.
What if British scientists develop the vaccine first?
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What if British scientists develop the vaccine first?
The odds are against it but yes, of course, it could happen and that would be great.
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The biggest calamity in the last ten years for the vast majority of the nation has been the effects of austerity....and the immigrants didn’t cause that.
What immigrants are you talking about Faith? People who come and work here and find housing without jumping the council queue are not an issue- should they be tarred with the same brush as the illegal immigrants who then claim asylum and are given housing-grants- all sorts of benefits,. When found to be false, they infect the legal system with reasons why they should stay.
So who are you and those like you to tell the population they have to put up and shut up? This country does not need or require large sections of young middle eastern/African men to come and do jobs that lazy white folks don't want to do! As if there are no lazy black folks- they can't get jobs because of racism apparently!
That hat should be placed on the hat stand. Immigration should be controlled full stop!
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Another consequence of Brexit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/14/coronavirus-vaccine-delays-brexit-ema-expensive?CMP=share_btn_fb
More deaths than necessary but hey at least we have our sovereignty.
But the good news is, being free to trade with Australia...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8115879/COVID-19-Australian-researchers-CURE-coronavirus.html
https://www.mirror.co.uk/science/coronavirus-cure-possible-scientists-claim-21699792
The Chinese are probably nearer as they have has it longer to study.
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What immigrants are you talking about Faith? People who come and work here and find housing without jumping the council queue are not an issue- should they be tarred with the same brush as the illegal immigrants who then claim asylum and are given housing-grants- all sorts of benefits,. When found to be false, they infect the legal system with reasons why they should stay.
So who are you and those like you to tell the population they have to put up and shut up? This country does not need or require large sections of young middle eastern/African men to come and do jobs that lazy white folks don't want to do! As if there are no lazy black folks- they can't get jobs because of racism apparently!
That hat should be placed on the hat stand. Immigration should be controlled full stop!
Asylum seekers are not the same as illegal immigrants. From FullFact
What can ‘illegal immigrants’ claim?
In response to a 2016 petition asking the government to ‘Stop all benefits to illegal immigrants completely’, the government said: “Illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers are not entitled to, and do not get, benefits from the UK’s welfare system”.
In its debunking paper for the email, the House of Commons Library defines illegal immigrants as those who entered the UK unlawfully or stayed for longer than they were allowed without applying to stay longer.
Those in the UK without legal status are likely to be removed if their immigration status is discovered by the authorities. They inherently do not have the right to work in the UK and we don’t have figures for those that do so anyway.
As a result of the Welfare Reform Act 2012, only people with the right to work in the UK can collect National Insurance contribution based benefits like jobseeker’s and employment and support allowance, and work related benefits like statutory maternity pay.
People subject to immigration control (who require leave to enter or remain in the UK but don’t have it) are also prevented from collecting payments like housing and child benefit, and universal credit.
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Asylum seekers are not the same as illegal immigrants. From FullFact
What can ‘illegal immigrants’ claim?
In response to a 2016 petition asking the government to ‘Stop all benefits to illegal immigrants completely’, the government said: “Illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers are not entitled to, and do not get, benefits from the UK’s welfare system”.
In its debunking paper for the email, the House of Commons Library defines illegal immigrants as those who entered the UK unlawfully or stayed for longer than they were allowed without applying to stay longer.
Those in the UK without legal status are likely to be removed if their immigration status is discovered by the authorities. They inherently do not have the right to work in the UK and we don’t have figures for those that do so anyway.
As a result of the Welfare Reform Act 2012, only people with the right to work in the UK can collect National Insurance contribution based benefits like jobseeker’s and employment and support allowance, and work related benefits like statutory maternity pay.
People subject to immigration control (who require leave to enter or remain in the UK but don’t have it) are also prevented from collecting payments like housing and child benefit, and universal credit.
They do not get from the welfare budget that is very true.
They get funds from the home office. Who gave millions to the Scottish government to 'take refugees' to house and support them. Just in case you didn't notice many children are in homeless units due to violent abusing parents and these Refugees found housing no problem! Many failed refugees/asylum seeking young men are taking up housing awaiting their legal teams to fight their cases as they get UK women pregnant to have a case to stay. All nice stuff. and all very ,very equal!!!!
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They do not get from the welfare budget that is very true.
They get funds from the home office. Who gave millions to the Scottish government to 'take refugees' to house and support them. Just in case you didn't notice many children are in homeless units due to violent abusing parents and these Refugees found housing no problem! Many failed refugees/asylum seeking young men are taking up housing awaiting their legal teams to fight their cases as they get UK women pregnant to have a case to stay. All nice stuff. and all very ,very equal!!!!
Do you have any empirical evidence for your claims ?
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Do you have any empirical evidence for your claims ?
Faith, can you wonder why I would make up stories.These issues affect everyone. They impact on our fiscal budget- Education, health and social welfare. not to mention a cultural difference, which many in this country find offensive, and divisive.
But here you are...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-47597458
https://www.gov.scot/publications/homelessness-scotland-2018-2019/
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Faith, can you wonder why I would make up stories.These issues affect everyone. They impact on our fiscal budget- Education, health and social welfare. not to mention a cultural difference, which many in this country find offensive, and divisive.
But here you are...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-47597458
https://www.gov.scot/publications/homelessness-scotland-2018-2019/
It’s also been proved that immigrants give back to the economy much more than they take out.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/09/26/migrants-contribute-more-to-britain-than-they-take-and-will-carry-on-doing-so
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It’s also been proved that immigrants give back to the economy much more than they take out.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/09/26/migrants-contribute-more-to-britain-than-they-take-and-will-carry-on-doing-so
I disagree Faith. on two accounts
1. illegal immigrants/turned asylum seekers give nothing back and bleed the system.
2. people who are legally here and work- there are no stats to say if they put in more than they take out. Many send money back home taking funds out of out fiscal system. Many claim top up tax such as bar persons and café workers...
Just the scare mongering who will pick our fruit and veg-(if not the slaves driven by gang masters) we need to ask who did these jobs before they came? what happened to them? are there not enough people claiming unemployment benefit who could not do these jobs?
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I disagree Faith. on two accounts
1. illegal immigrants/turned asylum seekers give nothing back and bleed the system.
2. people who are legally here and work- there are no stats to say if they put in more than they take out. Many send money back home taking funds out of out fiscal system. Many claim top up tax such as bar persons and café workers...
Just the scare mongering who will pick our fruit and veg-(if not the slaves driven by gang masters) we need to ask who did these jobs before they came? what happened to them? are there not enough people claiming unemployment benefit who could not do these jobs?
Did you bother to read the link I posted ?
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Did you bother to read the link I posted ?
It isn't proof. just stats. The increase in slave CHEAP labour doesn't seem to bother the hard left.
People who come to this country to work usually go through official channels, like my sister did going to Australia. The check out the legal admission criteria, find a job and housing THEN GO.
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It isn't proof. just stats. The increase in slave CHEAP labour doesn't seem to bother the hard left.
People who come to this country to work usually go through official channels, like my sister did going to Australia. The check out the legal admission criteria, find a job and housing THEN GO.
Did you read Labour’s manifesto ? Banning zero hour contracts, a national minimum wage of £10 etc, etc. In fact Labour would have done more for ‘the slave cheap labour’ you talk about than any government in living memory.
The more you post MTI the more I realise that you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Did you read Labour’s manifesto ? Banning zero hour contracts, a national minimum wage of £10 etc, etc. In fact Labour would have done more for ‘the slave cheap labour’ you talk about than any government in living memory.
The more you post MTI the more I realise that you have no idea what you are talking about.
I don't read manifestos due to the fact it is just click bait/ empty promises.
Labour has no intention of creating the ability to ban slave labour- they do not know who these slave masters are- they refuse to accept they exist, they love the illegal immigrants and labour run councils support.
"The more you post MTI the more I realise that you have no idea what you are talking about. "
Is this because I disagree with a lot of what you type? I thought you better than that Faith.
You have to wonder why no one voted for them to WIN with that great manifesto and the Tories still offering universal credit!!
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I don't read manifestos due to the fact it is just click bait/ empty promises.
Labour has no intention of creating the ability to ban slave labour- they do not know who these slave masters are- they refuse to accept they exist, they love the illegal immigrants and labour run councils support.
"The more you post MTI the more I realise that you have no idea what you are talking about. "
Is this because I disagree with a lot of what you type? I thought you better than that Faith.
You have to wonder why no one voted for them to WIN with that great manifesto and the Tories still offering universal credit!!
I have no problem with you disagreeing with me MTI, that’s what makes for good debate. I do, however, have a problem with you doing so without doing your research first.
As to why Labour didn’t win, it was less to do with the manifesto and more to do with Brexit and an unholy smear campaign against its leader by the MSM.
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I have no problem with you disagreeing with me MTI, that’s what makes for good debate. I do, however, have a problem with you doing so without doing your research first.
As to why Labour didn’t win, it was less to do with the manifesto and more to do with Brexit and an unholy smear campaign against its leader by the MSM.
I have no problem with you disagreeing with me MTI, that’s what makes for good debate. :) and it is respectful
I do, however, have a problem with you doing so without doing your research first.
Noted. you can let me know when My research is failing me. 8(0(*
"As to why Labour didn’t win, it was less to do with the manifesto and more to do with Brexit and an unholy smear campaign against its leader by the MSM."
I agree the [ censored word]emitism could be blamed on a very small number of voters and it was an unfair smear IMO. However I Think it a real stretch of the imagination to believe those reasons you claim were the real cause.
Even now, the corbynistas and Dianne abbot are loathed in great numbers as they are seen for what they are- mostly inept and pathetic.
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I really just don't get what the advantages of Brexit are supposed to be...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/17/brexit-germany-urges-eu-to-plan-for-possible-no-deal-20?CMP=share_btn_tw
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I really just don't get what the advantages of Brexit are supposed to be...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/17/brexit-germany-urges-eu-to-plan-for-possible-no-deal-20?CMP=share_btn_tw
"I really just don't get what the advantages of Brexit are supposed to be...
"
Neither does the left wing media... you are in good company don't go letting it bother you.
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"I really just don't get what the advantages of Brexit are supposed to be...
"
Neither does the left wing media... you are in good company don't go letting it bother you.
It appears you don’t either.
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Right. 1 July. Deadline over. No extension requested for Brexit.
When even the Telegraph doesn't seem too impressed...
Britain heading for Brexit 'customs chaos'
Concerns raised over new IT system designed to help goods flow across borders
By Lizzy Burden 28 June 2020 • 9:38pm
The head of the Government’s own expert customs panel has warned of looming chaos at ports after the "amateurish" handling of a new IT system...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/06/28/britain-heading-brexit-customs-chaos/
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"I really just don't get what the advantages of Brexit are supposed to be...
"
Neither does the left wing media... you are in good company don't go letting it bother you.
I'm still waiting for anyone to explain (preferably in a substantiated way) what the advantages are... 8(8-))
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I'm still waiting for anyone to explain (preferably in a substantiated way) what the advantages are... 8(8-))
That we don’t have to pay the EU and therefore be a net contributor to an organisation that prevents us from striking our own trade deals, presumably.
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That we don’t have to pay the EU and therefore be a net contributor to an organisation that prevents us from striking our own trade deals, presumably.
Ok. But just how long does the government think these things take?
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/how-long-do-trade-deals-take-after-brexit/
That's just trade.
After Brexit: the UK will need to renegotiate at least 759 treaties
FT research reveals that agreements with 168 countries must be redone just for Britain to stand still
Paul McClean in Brussels May 30 2017
https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e
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Ok. But just how long does the government think these things take?
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/how-long-do-trade-deals-take-after-brexit/
That's just trade.
After Brexit: the UK will need to renegotiate at least 759 treaties
FT research reveals that agreements with 168 countries must be redone just for Britain to stand still
Paul McClean in Brussels May 30 2017
https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e
Factor in the effects of Covid on the economy and a PM who ‘doesn’t do detail’ and it’s a perfect storm.
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Ok. But just how long does the government think these things take?
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/how-long-do-trade-deals-take-after-brexit/
That's just trade.
After Brexit: the UK will need to renegotiate at least 759 treaties
FT research reveals that agreements with 168 countries must be redone just for Britain to stand still
Paul McClean in Brussels May 30 2017
https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e
I don’t know but I guess Brexit is for the long term not just for Christmas. I have to assume that the business people and politicians who see its advantages are not complete morons because noone deliberately wants to destroy the country’s ability to trade profitably with other countries for decades to come, do they?
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Was I imagining that one of the major arguments in favour of getting people to vote in favour of Brexit was to restrict immigration...
But now it seems that's changed for Hong Kong residents:
Up to three million Hong Kong residents are to be offered the chance to settle in the UK and ultimately apply for citizenship, Boris Johnson has said.
The PM said Hong Kong's freedoms were being violated by a new security law and those affected would be offered a "route" out of the former UK colony.
About 350,000 UK passport holders, and 2.6 million others eligible, will be able to come to the UK for five years.
And after a further year, they will be able to apply for citizenship.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-53246899
NB: I have no problem with immigrants from any country who contribute to the economy. But this doesn't compute for me with the "UK is full" mantra.
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I don’t know but I guess Brexit is for the long term not just for Christmas. I have to assume that the business people and politicians who see its advantages are not complete morons because noone deliberately wants to destroy the country’s ability to trade profitably with other countries for decades to come, do they?
Hard to tell. Looking way back to the beginning of https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys , their campaign against Brexit is based on the changing promises / misconceptions of politicians over time... using the words of the politicians themselves.
I expect that many moderate people who voted in favour of Brexit didn't realise what the consequences would be.
A mega-mistake, IMO, was to vote in favour of an election first. Cummings won.
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Potential loss of income from international students at UK universities appears to being blamed on Covid-19. Nothing to do with Brexit? Convenient.
https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14919
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Ok. But just how long does the government think these things take?
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/how-long-do-trade-deals-take-after-brexit/
That's just trade.
After Brexit: the UK will need to renegotiate at least 759 treaties
FT research reveals that agreements with 168 countries must be redone just for Britain to stand still
Paul McClean in Brussels May 30 2017
https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e
Every one wants to chuck spears at moving targets! predictions are just that- predictions. not set in stone or confirmed as facts!.
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Was I imagining that one of the major arguments in favour of getting people to vote in favour of Brexit was to restrict immigration...
But now it seems that's changed for Hong Kong residents:
Up to three million Hong Kong residents are to be offered the chance to settle in the UK and ultimately apply for citizenship, Boris Johnson has said.
The PM said Hong Kong's freedoms were being violated by a new security law and those affected would be offered a "route" out of the former UK colony.
About 350,000 UK passport holders, and 2.6 million others eligible, will be able to come to the UK for five years.
And after a further year, they will be able to apply for citizenship.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-53246899
NB: I have no problem with immigrants from any country who contribute to the economy. But this doesn't compute for me with the "UK is full" mantra.
Not only were you and the other celebroty minority re moaners imagining it, you actually set the tone and try to sell it by believing in it.
Uneducated, white trash types- right wing facists/racist hating on innocent immigrants just wanting to come and make a decent living all voted leave.
Superiority complex anyone?
And NOW you demand someone explain to you about the advantages of leaving. You should have paid closer attention to those of us who were trying to explain, but were shouted down by remoaners who couldn't tell us the advantages of staying in an ever increasing EU with non elected AH's ruling over us!
We joined a common market, which has been increasingly becoming the forth Reich!
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Not only were you and the other celebroty minority re moaners imagining it, you actually set the tone and try to sell it by believing in it.
Uneducated, white trash types- right wing facists/racist hating on innocent immigrants just wanting to come and make a decent living all voted leave.
Superiority complex anyone?
And NOW you demand someone explain to you about the advantages of leaving. You should have paid closer attention to those of us who were trying to explain, but were shouted down by remoaners who couldn't tell us the advantages of staying in an ever increasing EU with non elected AH's ruling over us!
We joined a common market, which has been increasingly becoming the forth Reich!
You know what they say....not all Brexit voters are racists but I haven’t met one who isn’t.
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You know what they say....not all Brexit voters are racists but I haven’t met one who isn’t.
You don't get out much?. How many Black and Asian Brexit voters have you spoke to exactly?
Off the cuff remarks and name calling. Tsk. Really!
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You don't get out much?. How many Black and Asian Brexit voters have you spoke to exactly?
Off the cuff remarks and name calling. Tsk. Really!
You really do think in stereotypes, don’t you.
Surely even you know that Black and Asian people can be racist ?
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What's the word before debacle?
Mark François apparently telling the head of the armed forces to sort themselves out (over whatever this debacle was about) or else Cummings will do so.
https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1280570038043447297
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What's the word before debacle?
Mark François apparently telling the head of the armed forces to sort themselves out (over whatever this debacle was about) or else Cummings will do so.
https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1280570038043447297
Nothing surprises me about this government anymore.
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It appears you don’t either.
I have a good grasp of why the remoaners want to stay... HESLETINE has 900k reasons and mandleson et,el are all in it for the same reasons...IMO unless the remoaners have reasons which differ.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1365120/RICHARD-KAY-Heseltines-900-000-EU-handout.html
He isn't letting go his MONEEEEEEE
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1307799/brexit-latest-eu-news-trade-deal-lord-heseltine-tory-party-latest-boris-johnson-spt
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I have a good grasp of why the remoaners want to stay... HESLETINE has 900k reasons and mandleson et,el are all in it for the same reasons...IMO unless the remoaners have reasons which differ.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1365120/RICHARD-KAY-Heseltines-900-000-EU-handout.html
He isn't letting go his MONEEEEEEE
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1307799/brexit-latest-eu-news-trade-deal-lord-heseltine-tory-party-latest-boris-johnson-spt
Some reading matter that, crazily, does not come from the rabid rightwing press......no need to thank me.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/13/gove-delivers-lorry-load-of-oven-ready-brexit-with-no-ingredients
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https://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-class-politics-of-points-based.html
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Some reading matter that, crazily, does not come from the rabid rightwing press......no need to thank me.
Oh It wouldn't matter if it came from Jeremy Corbyns sweet pink ass- it is very true. So according ton you, right wing press don't do truth then? Just the Guardian. OK Note to self... do not print truth unless story is in Guardian.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/13/gove-delivers-lorry-load-of-oven-ready-brexit-with-no-ingredients
Before even opening the link, I'd guessed who the author was. lol
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Before even opening the link, I'd guessed who the author was. lol
Love John Cace.
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Brexit + Covid-19.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/29/uk/eu-brexit-intl-gbr/index.html
Sunny uplands?
Or more... Pink Floyd?
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Hard cheese: Liz Truss walked away from trade talks over stilton
new
Oliver Wright, Policy Editor
Tuesday August 11 2020, 12.00pm, The Times
Liz Truss speaks to Toshimitsu Motegi as they begin negotiations in June on a free trade agreement
Liz Truss speaks to Toshimitsu Motegi as they begin negotiations in June on a free trade agreement
PA
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If anyone was in any doubt that trade deals are just as much about politics as they are about trade then the curious case of the stilton “wedge” should disabuse them.
It was revealed today that the trade secretary Liz Truss walked away from signing a historic post-Brexit trade deal with Japan last week in support of a British cheese worth about 0.007 per cent of UK exports to the country.
Ms Truss had been hoping to announce the symbolic deal to protect £14.8 billion of UK exports to Japan following two days of negotiations with the country’s foreign minister, Toshimitsu Motegi.
But Mr Motegi flew back to Tokyo on Friday with no deal in place after Ms Truss demanded better terms for stilton producers than the deal Britain had as part of its membership of the EU, the Financial Times reported.
The talks will continue at an official level in an attempt to resolve the differences and have an agreement ratified before the completion of the transition period at the end of this year.
Taking a stand over an export to Japan that is only worth around £100,000 a year might seem curious. But from the UK side — needing a political “win” that can be sold easily to the British public — stilton is a good battle to pick.
Under the existing EU deal with Japan, from which Britain benefits, Japanese tariffs of 29 per cent on hard cheeses such as cheddar will be phased out to zero by 2033.
But for other cheeses, such as “blue-veined” stilton, only a quota of exports would be tariff free.
The UK wanted to improve on those terms to demonstrate that the government could negotiate a bespoke deal that served British interests — even if the potential gain was small in economic terms.
But Japan has long argued that it cannot give Britain a better deal than that agreed with the EU, whose 27 nations have a population almost seven times bigger than the UK’s.
There is also concern on the Japanese side that any concessions made to the UK could trigger the reopening of the EU deal as Brussels demands the same access for its soft-blue cheese exports.
Ms Truss has long advocated British cheese’s place in international markets.
She trended on social media in 2014 after a speech to the Conservative party conference in which she said: “We import two thirds of our cheese: that is a disgrace!”
Today her department did not deny that stilton had become an issue in the talks but said it could not comment on negotiations that were continuing.
According to UK government figures, a “modelled” trade deal with Japan might add 0.07 per cent to Britain’s GDP in the long term, compared with the loss of 5 per cent of GDP growth associated with the UK leaving the EU single market and customs union.
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Oh well, we didn't need a deal with Japan anyway. Let's only deal with countries that ARE prepared to give us better terms than they give to the EU - anyone know which countries those are btw...?
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I am sailing...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOt3oQ_k008
or how about
Fiscal Pastime Paradise?
https://youtu.be/sLErN7Ps6sU?t=26
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I'm still waiting for all the sunlit uplands / benefits of Brexit...
What has been made easier / cheaper for anyone (even on this forum) here as a result?
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I'm still waiting for all the sunlit uplands / benefits of Brexit...
What has been made easier / cheaper for anyone (even on this forum) here as a result?
Sweet FA
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I'm still waiting for all the sunlit uplands / benefits of Brexit...
What has been made easier / cheaper for anyone (even on this forum) here as a result?
Did those who voted for Brexit do so in hopes that their lives would be easier and/or cheaper? I think there were other reasons.
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Did those who voted for Brexit do so in hopes that their lives would be easier and/or cheaper? I think there were other reasons.
I think the fishermen voted because they thought it would mean they would regain their fishing waters and thus make them better off. I think many in red wall areas voted Brexit to reduce immigration and keep British jobs for British people. I think farmers voted for Brexit because they thought it would open up more markets for them and mean less bureaucracy. I think I think some businessmen voted for Brexit for the same reasons. I think many people voted for Brexit because they thought it would be better to channel the money we spent as part of our membership on improving the NHS and other infrastructure. I think many who voted for Brexit did so because they were under the impression that we would be unshackled from European Law and be able to do as we pleased, rather than what Europe told us and that that in turn would make this country great again. So, yes I think many people voted for Brexit because they thought it would improve their lot, not make life more difficult and more expensive. I did say at the time however (and got roundly criticised by you for saying it iirc) that the turkeys were voting for Christmas, and so far at any rate, this would seem to be the case. But still we have our sovereignty and our blue (black) passports which undoubtedly makes up for all the negatives. By the way what has "having our sovereignty" actually meant for the average person in this country?
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Interestingly 52% of people now think Brexit was a mistake with only 36% of people thinking it was the right thing to do
https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/
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I think the fishermen voted because they thought it would mean they would regain their fishing waters and thus make them better off. I think many in red wall areas voted Brexit to reduce immigration and keep British jobs for British people. I think farmers voted for Brexit because they thought it would open up more markets for them and mean less bureaucracy. I think I think some businessmen voted for Brexit for the same reasons. I think many people voted for Brexit because they thought it would be better to channel the money we spent as part of our membership on improving the NHS and other infrastructure. I think many who voted for Brexit did so because they were under the impression that we would be unshackled from European Law and be able to do as we pleased, rather than what Europe told us and that that in turn would make this country great again. So, yes I think many people voted for Brexit because they thought it would improve their lot, not make life more difficult and more expensive. I did say at the time however (and got roundly criticised by you for saying it iirc) that the turkeys were voting for Christmas, and so far at any rate, this would seem to be the case. But still we have our sovereignty and our blue (black) passports which undoubtedly makes up for all the negatives. By the way what has "having our sovereignty" actually meant for the average person in this country?
More sewage.
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The penny appears finally to have dropped in the Pro-Brexit camp. Yes, we hate to say we told you so, but…we told you so…
Brexit is doomed, says Boris Johnson’s favourite paper
‘The project is probably now unsalvageable’, says former PM’s old employer
Adam Forrest8 hours ago
Sign up to our free Brexit and beyond email for the latest headlines on what Brexit is meaning for the UK
The Conservatives have made such a “hash” of Brexit that the project is probably “unsalvageable”, according to Boris Johnson’s favourite newspaper.
An editorial column in The Telegraph – where Mr Johnson formerly worked and known to be his favoured newspaper – suggested that Brexit was now doomed to failure.
Admitting “almost nothing has been achieved”, the Brexit-backing newspaper added: “With no plan to unleash its potential, it can only fester, stoking tensions in Northern Ireland and strangling small firms with red tape.”
“It is time for the Leave camp to start saying the unsayable: the Tories have made such a hash of Brexit that the project is probably now unsalvageable,” it added.
The column marks the rise of so-called “Bregret” or “Regrexit”, with polls indicating that many Leave voters believe Brexit is going badly and a growing number are in favour of rejoining the EU.
One in three Tory voters (33 per cent) believe Brexit has created more problems than it has solved, an Opinium survey in early January. A separate YouGov poll found 30 per cent of Leave voters said the UK should now forge closer ties with Brussels.
Poling guru Sir John Curtis said his own poll-of-polls analysis shows support for rejoining the EU at 57 per cent and staying out at 43 per cent if another referendum was held, having steadily risen over the past year.
Former Brexit secretary David Davis admitted in November that leaving had not delivered any “major” economic benefits. And fellow Tory MP Andrew Bowie – now a trade minister – previously admitted that young people may not “reap the benefits” of Brexit.
Tory MP Tobias Ellwood raised eyebrows in June by suggesting the UK could rejoin the EU’s single market to ease the cost of living crisis, saying he was “daring” the think outside the box.
“I fear that it is more likely that we end up re-joining the EU – and sooner than many people think,” wrote The Telegraph’s Sherelle Jacobs. “Not for the reasons the alt-Remainers believe, best expressed through their favourite cliche: nobody voted to be poorer.
“The real problem is that nobody voted for nothing to change. And Brexit has not brought about the kind of national reset that millions of people expected. Instead, it is beginning to look slightly rubbish, even pointless.”
It comes as a new joint report by top economic think tanks found that post-Brexit rules have led to a shortfall of around 330,000 workers in the UK and had helped fuel inflation.
The ending of free movement is “contributing significantly” to current labour shortages, the study by the UK in a Changing Europe and the Centre for European Reform found.
The academics found that low-skilled sectors – including hospitality, retail, construction and transportation – had been badly hit by the loss of EU workers after Brexit.
“Overall, the new system is working broadly as Leave advocates promised,” said co-authors Prof Jonathan Portes and John Springford, who said visa rules were “too onerous to compensate for the loss of free movement in low-skilled sectors of the economy”.
Meanwhile, Asda chair Stuart Rose said on Tuesday the UK was suffering from the “catastrophic” impact of Brexit and should consider a closer trading relationship with Brussels.
“I can smell it – we have suffered. We are the only economy I think in the G7, possibly in the G20, who has actually not yet recovered to pre-Covid levels. That tells you something,” Lord Rose told LBC.
The Tory peer said trade between the UK and the EU was “not flowing smoothly”, adding: “We can call it the Mickey Mouse agreement as far as I’m concerned. What we need to do is we need to have a stronger trading relationship.”
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Good ol’ Brexit…
“UK economy to shrink and perform worse than Russia, says IMF”
The UK is on course to be the world’s worst-performing big economy this year, according to the International Monetary Fund.
In an update to its growth outlook, the IMF delivered a hefty blow to Britain’s prospects despite brightening global conditions, with a 0.9 percentage point downgrade to the UK’s annual growth projection year.
It expects the economy to contract by 0.6 per cent in 2023, which would make Britain the slowest-growing big economy in the world. The Russian economy is expected to grow by 0.3 per cent this year after a 2.2 per cent contraction in 2022.
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The Davis Downside Dossier
UPDATED. David Davis famously said there would be no downsides to Brexit only considerable upsides. Here we keep a tally.
Yorkshire BylinesbyYorkshire Bylines
01-01-2021 04:01 - Updated on 31-01-2023 19:26https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/regular-features/the-davis-downside-dossier/
So far the tally is 23 upsides (although one of them is that the EU has become more popular in most member states).
Downsides... 909 so far.