Author Topic: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?  (Read 49740 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #405 on: March 04, 2018, 08:49:21 AM »
Yvonne Martin formed the impression that the McCanns and their friends could have been involved in Madeleine's disappearance. That seems preposterous on the basis of a few minutes observation and conversation. This is the opinion of someone who has 25 years experience in dealing with child protection issues though. It was her job to make decisions about people and something about these people made her uneasy.

As Inspector Ferreira says;

The statements given to the PJ today by Yvonne Martin provide a concrete clarification of the reasons for her suspicions, which in my opinion, do not point to any concrete element that could, in any way, make other inquiries directly related to her statements, viable.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm

In other words, impressions and opinions aren't evidence.

Yvonne Martin wasn't the only one to feel uneasy about these people. Members of the public watched and listened to them on TV and felt the same. The very experienced John Stalker noticed something. The more the PJ interacted with them the more they felt that something wasn't quite right. In my opinion a couple of the FLO's weren't quite sure about them.

what really does that prove...nothing.....what evidence against the mccanns did teh investigation uncover

Offline G-Unit

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #406 on: March 04, 2018, 09:27:54 AM »
what really does that prove...nothing.....what evidence against the mccanns did teh investigation uncover

It's not meant to 'prove' anything. Some people were immediately convinced that the McCanns and their friends were totally and utterly innocent. Others weren't. In my opinion no-one knows which group got it right, despite claims to the contrary.
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #407 on: March 04, 2018, 10:28:46 AM »
there is an ongoing police investigation...do you really think that this witness would discuss her evidence with you...
I am thinking will she or won't she?  It hasn't happened yet but if she does we will gauge her reaction from there.
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Offline slartibartfast

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #408 on: March 04, 2018, 10:33:39 AM »
It's not meant to 'prove' anything. Some people were immediately convinced that the McCanns and their friends were totally and utterly innocent. Others weren't. In my opinion no-one knows which group got it right, despite claims to the contrary.

I think it is safe to say there is a wide range of opinions along the whole spectrum from innocence to guilt.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #409 on: March 04, 2018, 11:38:01 AM »
It's not meant to 'prove' anything. Some people were immediately convinced that the McCanns and their friends were totally and utterly innocent. Others weren't. In my opinion no-one knows which group got it right, despite claims to the contrary.

I wasnt immediately convinced of anything........I think its obvious now that the mccanns are not suspects in either investigation IMO
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 05:58:54 PM by slartibartfast »

Offline Erngath

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #410 on: March 04, 2018, 12:01:55 PM »
It's not meant to 'prove' anything. Some people were immediately convinced that the McCanns and their friends were totally and utterly innocent. Others weren't. In my opinion no-one knows which group got it right, despite claims to the contrary.


Fortunately the current investigations seem convinced that the McCanns and their friends are " totally and utterly innocent" and until there is any indication that their opinions have changed, then the opinions of either groups are of no real  importance.
Deal with the failings of others as gently as with your own.

Offline kizzy

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #411 on: March 04, 2018, 12:12:25 PM »

Fortunately the current investigations seem convinced that the McCanns and their friends are " totally and utterly innocent" and until there is any indication that their opinions have changed, then the opinions of either groups are of no real  importance.


Totally and utterly innocent, surely that is only your opinion

YM is only one of very many with years [25] of experience, who think differently.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 12:14:57 PM by kizzy »

Offline jassi

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #412 on: March 04, 2018, 12:16:07 PM »

Fortunately the current investigations seem convinced that the McCanns and their friends are " totally and utterly innocent" and until there is any indication that their opinions have changed, then the opinions of either groups are of no real  importance.


Who said that ?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Brietta

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #413 on: March 04, 2018, 03:34:54 PM »
Yvonne Martin formed the impression that the McCanns and their friends could have been involved in Madeleine's disappearance. That seems preposterous on the basis of a few minutes observation and conversation. This is the opinion of someone who has 25 years experience in dealing with child protection issues though. It was her job to make decisions about people and something about these people made her uneasy.

As Inspector Ferreira says;

The statements given to the PJ today by Yvonne Martin provide a concrete clarification of the reasons for her suspicions, which in my opinion, do not point to any concrete element that could, in any way, make other inquiries directly related to her statements, viable.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm

In other words, impressions and opinions aren't evidence.

Yvonne Martin wasn't the only one to feel uneasy about these people. Members of the public watched and listened to them on TV and felt the same. The very experienced John Stalker noticed something. The more the PJ interacted with them the more they felt that something wasn't quite right. In my opinion a couple of the FLO's weren't quite sure about them.

With the passage of time information becomes corrupted or lost and sometimes the wrong information becomes embedded as a factoid and a half truth.
That is what you have done when you class Yvonne Martin's fleeting observation with John Stalker's years of experience and expertise.

The expert senior police officer John Stalker believed Madeleine McCann had been abducted by a stranger and he believed that there was no parental involvement in that abduction.

That is at total variance with your post and Yvonne Martin's assessment ... which in my opinion was ill advised and ill considered.

John Stalker did indeed think the silence of the McCann's and their friends strange ... and there is quite a bit of information here about that ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5008.msg178223#msg178223   New documentary:"BURIED BY MAINSTREAM MEDIA -The True Story of Madeleine McCann.

There is also information about why he thought the McCanns innocent and that Madeleine had been abducted ...

MCCANNS 'ARE HIDING A BIG SECRET'

Sunday October 28 2007

By John Stalker

I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag on for six months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sad fact is that we still have a missing girl and I believe the investigation will be focusing on the theory that she is dead.

The likeliest scenario is that her abductor panicked when he realised the attention the case was creating and killed her days after snatching her.

My fear now is that unless we find her body or her killer strikes again we will never know what really happened to that tiny child.

My instinct, based on years of policing similar cases, is that we are looking at an abduction where the child was targeted in the days before her disappearance.

On the night she vanished it is likely that her abductor simply spotted his opportunity and struck while he could.

I have been horrified by the abject failure of the Portuguese detectives to adhere to basic principles of policing.

The investigation does not seem to have taken a step forward from where it was in the first week after she went missing.  I cannot believe that the Portuguese only sent selected DNA samples to the forensic science lab in Birmingham.

There is absolutely no sense in that whatsoever.  To fully evaluate poor-quality DNA traces, as we believe these were, forensic experts need to see the whole picture.

In the past, when I have dealt with traces of bodily fluids, it is very difficult to establish how they got to be where they were.

All DNA is highly transferable and that is the most likely explanation for the alleged traces found in the McCanns' hire car and on her mother's clothing.  Robert Murat, the other suspect, was seen close to the apartment the day after Madeleine disappeared and freely admits having helped police as a translator.

If he was in that apartment, or anywhere near it, there is no doubt he would have transferred some of Madeleine's or the twins' DNA on to his clothing.

I don't believe for one minute that Kate and Gerry McCann or their friends are capable or guilty of having murdered the four-year-old.

All the criticism of Kate and Gerry and their friends has been completely out of order.  They are extremely intelligent and articulate people and, just because they have never visibly cracked in public to the extent that they are beaten, does not mean that they are guilty of anything sinister.

Yes, they have had more doors opened for them than other people would have in similar circumstances, but their main aim is to discover what happened to Madeleine.  That should be the aim of all concerned.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/EXPRESS-28-10-07.htm


In my opinion your assessment of John Stalker is entirely wrong just as Yvonne Martin's assessment of the McCanns is at variance with his opinion that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger and neither her parents or their friends are involved.
Reflecting later professional assessments by officers from Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria several years further down the line.

You are also entirely wrong in what you have to say about the family liaison officers for which  you interestingly have failed to provide a cite.
Your opinion doesn't cut the mustard when you are making allegations impugning reputations ... so I would suggest a cite or a withdrawal.
 
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 06:21:33 PM by John »
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Eleanor

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #414 on: March 04, 2018, 04:46:56 PM »

More Cherry Picking.  Sceptics are very good at this.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #415 on: March 04, 2018, 04:53:47 PM »
With the passage of time information becomes corrupted or lost and sometimes the wrong information becomes embedded as a factoid and a half truth.
That is what you have done when you class Yvonne Martin's fleeting observation with John Stalker's years of experience and expertise.

The expert senior police officer John Stalker believed Madeleine McCann had been abducted by a stranger and he believed that there was no parental involvement in that abduction.

That is at total variance with your post and Yvonne Martin's assessment ... which in my opinion was ill advised and ill considered.

John Stalker did indeed think the silence of the McCann's and their friends strange ... and there is quite a bit of information here about that ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5008.msg178223#msg178223   New documentary:"BURIED BY MAINSTREAM MEDIA -The True Story of Madeleine McCann.

There is also information about why he thought the McCanns innocent and that Madeleine had been abducted ...

MCCANNS 'ARE HIDING A BIG SECRET'

Sunday October 28 2007

By John Stalker

I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag on for six months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sad fact is that we still have a missing girl and I believe the investigation will be focusing on the theory that she is dead.

The likeliest scenario is that her abductor panicked when he realised the attention the case was creating and killed her days after snatching her.

My fear now is that unless we find her body or her killer strikes again we will never know what really happened to that tiny child.

My instinct, based on years of policing similar cases, is that we are looking at an abduction where the child was targeted in the days before her disappearance.

On the night she vanished it is likely that her abductor simply spotted his opportunity and struck while he could.

I have been horrified by the abject failure of the Portuguese detectives to adhere to basic principles of policing.

The investigation does not seem to have taken a step forward from where it was in the first week after she went missing.  I cannot believe that the Portuguese only sent selected DNA samples to the forensic science lab in Birmingham.

There is absolutely no sense in that whatsoever.  To fully evaluate poor-quality DNA traces, as we believe these were, forensic experts need to see the whole picture.

In the past, when I have dealt with traces of bodily fluids, it is very difficult to establish how they got to be where they were.

All DNA is highly transferable and that is the most likely explanation for the alleged traces found in the McCanns' hire car and on her mother's clothing.  Robert Murat, the other suspect, was seen close to the apartment the day after Madeleine disappeared and freely admits having helped police as a translator.

If he was in that apartment, or anywhere near it, there is no doubt he would have transferred some of Madeleine's or the twins' DNA on to his clothing.

I don't believe for one minute that Kate and Gerry McCann or their friends are capable or guilty of having murdered the four-year-old.

All the criticism of Kate and Gerry and their friends has been completely out of order.  They are extremely intelligent and articulate people and, just because they have never visibly cracked in public to the extent that they are beaten, does not mean that they are guilty of anything sinister.

Yes, they have had more doors opened for them than other people would have in similar circumstances, but their main aim is to discover what happened to Madeleine.  That should be the aim of all concerned.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/EXPRESS-28-10-07.htm


In my opinion your assessment of John Stalker is entirely wrong just as Yvonne Martin's assessment of the McCanns is at variance with his opinion that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger and neither her parents or their friends are involved.
Reflecting later professional assessments by officers from Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria several years further down the line.

You are also entirely wrong in what you have to say about the family liaison officers for which  you interestingly have failed to provide a cite.
Your opinion doesn't cut the mustard when you are making allegations impugning reputations ... so I would suggest a cite or a withdrawal.
John Stalker and Yvonne are very observant.  He gave a list of things as to why he thought the Tapas 9 had a big secret. 
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 06:21:57 PM by John »
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Carana

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #416 on: March 04, 2018, 04:55:37 PM »
John Stalker and Yvonne are very observant.  He gave a list of things as to why he thought the Tapas 9 had a big secret.

Such as?

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #417 on: March 04, 2018, 05:13:55 PM »
Such as?
They are covered in the article Brietta quoted from. 

"I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag on for six months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sad fact is that we still have a missing girl and I believe the investigation will be focusing on the theory that she is dead."
They were truncated and replaced by a row of hyphens in her quotation from the article.
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Brietta

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #418 on: March 04, 2018, 05:16:04 PM »
John Stalker and Yvonne are very observant.  He gave a list of things as to why he thought the Tapas 9 had a big secret.

I can sum up in two words why those witnesses involved in Madeleine's case kept their mouths shut ... JUDICIAL SECRECY.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?
« Reply #419 on: March 04, 2018, 05:27:44 PM »
They are covered in the article Brietta quoted from. 

"I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag on for six months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sad fact is that we still have a missing girl and I believe the investigation will be focusing on the theory that she is dead."
They were truncated and replaced by a row of hyphens in her quotation from the article.

Robitty there are actually very few places left on the internet where John Stalker's opinion that Madeleine was abducted and her parents are innocent can be found and http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/EXPRESS-28-10-07.htm is one of them.
The post was truncated, not through subterfuge, but to concentrate on the very valid points I was making regarding John Stalker's professional opinion which is at variance with what Yvonne Martin had to say.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....