Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?

[Robittybob1]

Robitty there are actually very few places left on the internet where John Stalker's opinion that Madeleine was abducted and her parents are innocent can be found and http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/EXPRESS-28-10-07.htm is one of them.
The post was truncated, not through subterfuge, but to concentrate on the very valid points I was making regarding John Stalker's professional opinion which is at variance with what Yvonne Martin had to say.

I thought it backed it up.  OK people read things differently.  What I found strange was the headline MCCANNS 'ARE HIDING A BIG SECRET'  but in the quote there was nothing about secrets. 
If Stalker believes they are hiding a secret so did Yvonne have the same suspicion about the 3 people she met.

[slartibartfast]

More Cherry Picking.  Sceptics are very good at this.

Supporters appear to be past masters.

[Alice Purjorick]

Supporters appear to be past masters.

Not to mention mention being past masters at yelling Judicial Secrecy like they ae drawing Excalibur but without the first idea what the rules of judicial are in Portugal and not knowing who is the arbiter.
They think it's a wall one bumps into or a string line one trips over.........................

[John]

Yvonne Martin formed the impression that the McCanns and their friends could have been involved in Madeleine's disappearance. That seems preposterous on the basis of a few minutes observation and conversation. This is the opinion of someone who has 25 years experience in dealing with child protection issues though. It was her job to make decisions about people and something about these people made her uneasy.

As Inspector Ferreira says;

The statements given to the PJ today by Yvonne Martin provide a concrete clarification of the reasons for her suspicions, which in my opinion, do not point to any concrete element that could, in any way, make other inquiries directly related to her statements, viable.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm

In other words, impressions and opinions aren't evidence.

Yvonne Martin wasn't the only one to feel uneasy about these people. Members of the public watched and listened to them on TV and felt the same. The very experienced John Stalker noticed something. The more the PJ interacted with them the more they felt that something wasn't quite right. In my opinion a couple of the FLO's weren't quite sure about them.

Yvonne Martin was extremely well qualified and indeed well placed to offer an opinion in respect of such matters.  She found Madeleine's parents aggressive and non cooperative when she attempted to seek out the most basic facts pertaining to the missing child.  That response would certainly have alerted her to the possibility of parental or family involvement and set alarm bells ringing in her head.  Yet again, this was not the normal reaction one would expect from the parents of an abducted child.

[Mr Gray]

Yvonne Martin was extremely well qualified and indeed well placed to offer an opinion in respect of such matters.  She found Madeleine's parents aggressive and non cooperative when she attempted to seek out the most basic facts pertaining to the missing child.  That response would certainly have alerted her to the possibility of parental or family involvement and set alarm bells ringing in her head.  Yet again, this was not the normal reaction one would expect from the parents of an abducted child.

The McCann's would have realised that as a social worker martins role may well be to recommend  removal of the twins... She had no place in the investigation of the abduction the McCann's believed had taken place.. She had no right to be there, asking questions and no doubt the McCann's knew that

[kizzy]

The McCann's would have realised that as a social worker martins role may well be to recommend  removal of the twins... She had no place in the investigation of the abduction the McCann's believed had taken place.. She had no right to be there, asking questions and no doubt the McCann's knew that

She was obviously concerned, and probably thought she could help.[no hidden agenda]

Unfortunately was turned away, for reasons only known to the mccannsand c/o.

She was obviously disturbed at there behaviour towards her, in her job she will be used to all sorts.

[John]

The McCann's would have realised that as a social worker martins role may well be to recommend  removal of the twins... She had no place in the investigation of the abduction the McCann's believed had taken place.. She had no right to be there, asking questions and no doubt the McCann's knew that

I disagree, she had the credentials and was escorted to the scene by the GNR.  I understand perfectly what was going through her mind.  As a professional she felt an overwhelming need to intercede and to help find the missing child and if that required hard questions to be asked, so be it.  She was rebuffed though and that was not normal.

The error she made was in backing off though, she should have made her presence known to the police coordinator and let him decide if her experience in such matters could be suitably employed.

[G-Unit]

With the passage of time information becomes corrupted or lost and sometimes the wrong information becomes embedded as a factoid and a half truth.
That is what you have done when you class Yvonne Martin's fleeting observation with John Stalker's years of experience and expertise.

The expert senior police officer John Stalker believed Madeleine McCann had been abducted by a stranger and he believed that there was no parental involvement in that abduction.

That is at total variance with your post and Yvonne Martin's assessment ... which in my opinion was ill advised and ill considered.

John Stalker did indeed think the silence of the McCann's and their friends strange ... and there is quite a bit of information here about that ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5008.msg178223#msg178223   New documentary:"BURIED BY MAINSTREAM MEDIA -The True Story of Madeleine McCann.

There is also information about why he thought the McCanns innocent and that Madeleine had been abducted ...

MCCANNS 'ARE HIDING A BIG SECRET'

Sunday October 28 2007

By John Stalker

I have watched the investigation into the Madeleine McCann case drag on for six months.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The sad fact is that we still have a missing girl and I believe the investigation will be focusing on the theory that she is dead.

The likeliest scenario is that her abductor panicked when he realised the attention the case was creating and killed her days after snatching her.

My fear now is that unless we find her body or her killer strikes again we will never know what really happened to that tiny child.

My instinct, based on years of policing similar cases, is that we are looking at an abduction where the child was targeted in the days before her disappearance.

On the night she vanished it is likely that her abductor simply spotted his opportunity and struck while he could.

I have been horrified by the abject failure of the Portuguese detectives to adhere to basic principles of policing.

The investigation does not seem to have taken a step forward from where it was in the first week after she went missing.  I cannot believe that the Portuguese only sent selected DNA samples to the forensic science lab in Birmingham.

There is absolutely no sense in that whatsoever.  To fully evaluate poor-quality DNA traces, as we believe these were, forensic experts need to see the whole picture.

In the past, when I have dealt with traces of bodily fluids, it is very difficult to establish how they got to be where they were.

All DNA is highly transferable and that is the most likely explanation for the alleged traces found in the McCanns' hire car and on her mother's clothing.  Robert Murat, the other suspect, was seen close to the apartment the day after Madeleine disappeared and freely admits having helped police as a translator.

If he was in that apartment, or anywhere near it, there is no doubt he would have transferred some of Madeleine's or the twins' DNA on to his clothing.

I don't believe for one minute that Kate and Gerry McCann or their friends are capable or guilty of having murdered the four-year-old.

All the criticism of Kate and Gerry and their friends has been completely out of order.  They are extremely intelligent and articulate people and, just because they have never visibly cracked in public to the extent that they are beaten, does not mean that they are guilty of anything sinister.

Yes, they have had more doors opened for them than other people would have in similar circumstances, but their main aim is to discover what happened to Madeleine.  That should be the aim of all concerned.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/6oct7/EXPRESS-28-10-07.htm


In my opinion your assessment of John Stalker is entirely wrong just as Yvonne Martin's assessment of the McCanns is at variance with his opinion that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger and neither her parents or their friends are involved.
Reflecting later professional assessments by officers from Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria several years further down the line.

You are also entirely wrong in what you have to say about the family liaison officers for which  you interestingly have failed to provide a cite.
Your opinion doesn't cut the mustard when you are making allegations impugning reputations ... so I would suggest a cite or a withdrawal.

My point was that people like social workers and policemen become very good at 'reading' people. John Stalker describes it as his 'gut instinct'. Someone or something seems not quite right. Two of the FLO's added caveats to their statements which, in my opinion, were included because they felt something was a bit odd. They all may have reached different conclusions, but they all appear to have been less than 100% convinced.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN_MARKLEY.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JIM_McGARVEY.htm

[Eleanor]

I disagree, she had the credentials and was escorted to the scene by the GNR.  I understand perfectly what was going through her mind.  As a professional she felt an overwhelming need to intercede and to help find the missing child and if that required hard questions to be asked, so be it.  She was rebuffed though and that was not normal.

The error she made was in backing off though, she should have made her presence known to the police coordinator and let him decide if her experience in such matters could be suitably employed.

The PJ were not impressed by Yvonne Martin.  End of story.

[G-Unit]

The McCann's would have realised that as a social worker martins role may well be to recommend  removal of the twins... She had no place in the investigation of the abduction the McCann's believed had taken place.. She had no right to be there, asking questions and no doubt the McCann's knew that

I can't imagine why you think they might be worried about having the twins taken away. According to Kate they hadn't been worrying about anything like that;

the barrister first of all assured us that our behaviour could not be deemed negligent and was indeed ‘well within the bounds of reasonable parenting’. This had hardly been our biggest concern, but it was reassuring to hear, all the same. [madeleine]

[Brietta]

I thought it backed it up.  OK people read things differently.  What I found strange was the headline MCCANNS 'ARE HIDING A BIG SECRET'  but in the quote there was nothing about secrets. 
If Stalker believes they are hiding a secret so did Yvonne have the same suspicion about the 3 people she met.

Nope it most certainly does not back it up:  John stalker was at a loss to understand why the McCanns and their friends maintained their silence in the face of the press onslaught directed at them.

The simple reason was that they would have been breaking the Portuguese law of Judicial secrecy ... had they spoken out they had been warned they would face prosecution.

[Mr Gray]

I disagree, she had the credentials and was escorted to the scene by the GNR.  I understand perfectly what was going through her mind.  As a professional she felt an overwhelming need to intercede and to help find the missing child and if that required hard questions to be asked, so be it.  She was rebuffed though and that was not normal.

The error she made was in backing off though, she should have made her presence known to the police coordinator and let him decide if her experience in such matters could be suitably employed.

It's odd... You criticise the presence of SY but support the presence if a social worker who had no authority  and no place in any investigation... She was given her marching orders, and quite right too

[Brietta]

Yvonne Martin was extremely well qualified and indeed well placed to offer an opinion in respect of such matters.  She found Madeleine's parents aggressive and non cooperative when she attempted to seek out the most basic facts pertaining to the missing child.  That response would certainly have alerted her to the possibility of parental or family involvement and set alarm bells ringing in her head.  Yet again, this was not the normal reaction one would expect from the parents of an abducted child.

Inspector Ferreira of the Policia Judiciaria was unimpressed by Yvonne Martin's intervention and in my opinion dismissed it out of hand.

Snip
The statements given to the PJ today by Yvonne Martin provide a concrete clarification of the reasons for her suspicions, which in my opinion, do not point to any concrete element that could, in any way, make other inquiries directly related to her statements, viable.

With nothing further to add.

Signed

Inspector Ferreira

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm

[John]

Inspector Ferreira of the Policia Judiciaria was unimpressed by Yvonne Martin's intervention and in my opinion dismissed it out of hand.

Snip
The statements given to the PJ today by Yvonne Martin provide a concrete clarification of the reasons for her suspicions, which in my opinion, do not point to any concrete element that could, in any way, make other inquiries directly related to her statements, viable.

With nothing further to add.

Signed

Inspector Ferreira

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm

Unimpressed is not the word I would use.  Her very short intervention was insufficient to be of any real use to the police but she had made her point adequately all the same. 

[John]

It's odd... You criticise the presence of SY but support the presence if a social worker who had no authority  and no place in any investigation... She was given her marching orders, and quite right too

SY have brought nothing to the inquiry which sort of says it all.