Yvonne Martin - how much information did she really uncover?

[Mr Gray]

Especially those doctors who think leaving small children home alone is acceptable, I would imagine.

absolutely....the most probable reason she was told to leave.

[Eleanor]

Bearing in mind it was your assertion, not mine, you appear to be stating that the PJ were right to be sceptical about Yvonne Martin, but were incompetent when coming to the same conclusion about the Kate and Gerry. That would be quite a contradiction.

Have you seen the statement from The PJ?  I don't appear to be anything.  That is your opinion.

[The General]

Have you seen the statement from The PJ?  I don't appear to be anything.  That is your opinion.

You interpreted the statement as not being 'frightfully impressed'. So you're trusting that judgement as sound - and indeed you concur.

[Eleanor]

You interpreted the statement as not being 'frightfully impressed'. So you're trusting that judgement as sound - and indeed you concur.

Well, they weren't.  Or did you read something different?  Whether or not I concur is irrelevant.

[The General]

Well, they weren't.  Or did you read something different?  Whether or not I concur is irrelevant.

It is relevant, because you've been particularly scathing about their perceived shortcomings from the get go. Now their analysis / opinion of Yvonne Martin is sound. So let's extend that hypothesis to Kate and Gerry's statements for example; was the PJ's opinion of those statements sound?

[Brietta]

Let's give some rational thought to the situation into which Martin invaded: it is my opinion that if anyone insulted Portugal by inference as a third world country ... she most definitely did.

Obviously she was of the opinion they weren't up to the job and she was needed to do their job for them ... or why do what she did?


There have been child abduction cases in Britain.  When did we ever see the parents or witnesses hanging around in the street waiting to be taken to a police station to make their statements?

When did we ever see the parents being accosted by a total stranger who insisted on taking one aside to ask personal information?

When did we ever see parents abandoned to make a lone public appeal on the street without police support?

Does anyone think Yvonne Martin would have behaved as she did in a missing child situation in England?
Does anyone think the English police would have tolerated it?

[Eleanor]

It is relevant, because you've been particularly scathing about their perceived shortcomings from the get go. Now their analysis / opinion of Yvonne Martin is sound. So let's extend that hypothesis to Kate and Gerry's statements for example; was the PJ's opinion of those statements sound?

Obviously not.  13 years later and The McCanns still haven't been arrested for anything.  Amaral is totally discredited and who has heard of Yvonne Martin since.

[The General]

Let's give some rational thought to the situation into which Martin invaded: it is my opinion that if anyone insulted Portugal by inference as a third world country ... she most definitely did.

Obviously she was of the opinion they weren't up to the job and she was needed to do their job for them ... or why do what she did?


There have been child abduction cases in Britain.  When did we ever see the parents or witnesses hanging around in the street waiting to be taken to a police station to make their statements?

When did we ever see the parents being accosted by a total stranger who insisted on taking one aside to ask personal information?

When did we ever see parents abandoned to make a lone public appeal on the street without police support?

Does anyone think Yvonne Martin would have behaved as she did in a missing child situation in England?
Does anyone think the English police would have tolerated it?

Let's give some rational thought to the situation into which Martin invaded (emotive rhetoric, your honour): it is my opinion that if anyone insulted Portugal by inference as a third world country (in economic terms, she was right: GDP growth in 2006, at 1.3%, was the lowest not just in the European Union but in all of Europe. In the 2000s, the Czech Republic, Malta and Slovenia overtook Portugal in terms of GDP per capita. From 2010 until 2012, GDP per capita (PPP) in Portugal fell below those of Slovakia (in Europe) and Seychelles (outside Europe). In 2013 it was estimated that the Portuguese GDP per capita will be similar (within minus or plus US$1,000 per capita) of those of Greece, Estonia and Lithuania. The GDP per capita fell from just over 80% of the EU 25 average in 1999 to just over 70% in 2007. This poor performance of the Portuguese economy was explored in April 2007 by The Economist which described Portugal as "a new sick man of Europe".) ... she most definitely did.

Obviously she was of the opinion they weren't up to the job and she was needed to do their job for them (an accusation routinely levelled at the PJ by McCann supporters, so why not YM?) ... or why do what she did?


There have been child abduction cases in Britain.  When did we ever see the parents or witnesses hanging around in the street waiting to be taken to a police station to make their statements? (This was Portugal - and when were they 'hanging around in the street'?)

When did we ever see the parents being accosted by a total stranger who insisted on taking one aside to ask personal information? (All the time. There are manifold support services eager to offer support - when my house burnt down a kind man from St. John's Ambulance helped us - last time I nearly cried openly - nearly, not because of the house, but because such people exist)

When did we ever see parents abandoned to make a lone public appeal on the street without police support?
(They were on holiday, not leafy Leicestershire).

Does anyone think Yvonne Martin would have behaved as she did in a missing child situation in England? (Yes, that's her job - social worker).
Does anyone think the English police would have tolerated it? (Yes, they would have encouraged support services to assist in their specialism)

[Mr Gray]

It is relevant, because you've been particularly scathing about their perceived shortcomings from the get go. Now their analysis / opinion of Yvonne Martin is sound. So let's extend that hypothesis to Kate and Gerry's statements for example; was the PJ's opinion of those statements sound?

It's like the curate's egg....nothing unusual about it

[The General]

It's like the curate's egg....nothing unusual about it

It's like the laughing policeman at Blackpool Pleasure Beach; it is unusual. On the surface it's seemingly humorous, but consider the plight of the clown, incarcerated in a glass box, laughing maniacally, inexorably ad infinitum and not dissimilar to Plato's Cave in that sense. Plato has Socrates describe a group of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall from objects passing in front of a fire behind them, and give names to these shadows. The shadows are the prisoners' reality.
The Laughing Policeman is an extension of this allegory, with the unwitting holidaymakers the shadows.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Let's give some rational thought to the situation into which Martin invaded: it is my opinion that if anyone insulted Portugal by inference as a third world country ... she most definitely did.

Obviously she was of the opinion they weren't up to the job and she was needed to do their job for them ... or why do what she did?


There have been child abduction cases in Britain.  When did we ever see the parents or witnesses hanging around in the street waiting to be taken to a police station to make their statements?

When did we ever see the parents being accosted by a total stranger who insisted on taking one aside to ask personal information?

When did we ever see parents abandoned to make a lone public appeal on the street without police support?

Does anyone think Yvonne Martin would have behaved as she did in a missing child situation in England?
Does anyone think the English police would have tolerated it?

When did we ever see parents making sure an unproven "abduction theory" was all over Sky News less than 12 hours after a disappearance??!!!!   

[Mr Gray]

When did we ever see parents making sure an unproven "abduction theory" was all over Sky News less than 12 hours after a disappearance??!!!!   

When was the last time a child was abducted from her holiday apartment

[Brietta]

Let's give some rational thought to the situation into which Martin invaded (emotive rhetoric, your honour): it is my opinion that if anyone insulted Portugal by inference as a third world country (in economic terms, she was right: GDP growth in 2006, at 1.3%, was the lowest not just in the European Union but in all of Europe. In the 2000s, the Czech Republic, Malta and Slovenia overtook Portugal in terms of GDP per capita. From 2010 until 2012, GDP per capita (PPP) in Portugal fell below those of Slovakia (in Europe) and Seychelles (outside Europe). In 2013 it was estimated that the Portuguese GDP per capita will be similar (within minus or plus US$1,000 per capita) of those of Greece, Estonia and Lithuania. The GDP per capita fell from just over 80% of the EU 25 average in 1999 to just over 70% in 2007. This poor performance of the Portuguese economy was explored in April 2007 by The Economist which described Portugal as "a new sick man of Europe".) ... she most definitely did.

Obviously she was of the opinion they weren't up to the job and she was needed to do their job for them (an accusation routinely levelled at the PJ by McCann supporters, so why not YM?) ... or why do what she did?


There have been child abduction cases in Britain.  When did we ever see the parents or witnesses hanging around in the street waiting to be taken to a police station to make their statements? (This was Portugal - and when were they 'hanging around in the street'?)

When did we ever see the parents being accosted by a total stranger who insisted on taking one aside to ask personal information? (All the time. There are manifold support services eager to offer support - when my house burnt down a kind man from St. John's Ambulance helped us - last time I nearly cried openly - nearly, not because of the house, but because such people exist)

When did we ever see parents abandoned to make a lone public appeal on the street without police support?
(They were on holiday, not leafy Leicestershire).

Does anyone think Yvonne Martin would have behaved as she did in a missing child situation in England? (Yes, that's her job - social worker).
Does anyone think the English police would have tolerated it? (Yes, they would have encouraged support services to assist in their specialism)

In other words ... appropriate protocols would have been observed in England and someone who could have been an unhinged lunatic for all anyone knew, would not have been given the opportunity to get close to bereaved parents.

[The General]

When was the last time a child was abducted from her holiday apartment

Desperate times need desperate measures - Yvonne Martin saw that and thought she could bring her expertise to bear on such a rare event.

[The General]

In other words ... appropriate protocols would have been observed in England and someone who could have been an unhinged lunatic for all anyone knew, would not have been given the opportunity to get close to bereaved parents.

Could be. But unhinged lunatics are not confined to Portugal. Every major crime in Britain attracts all manner of whack jobs.

*thanks for fixing my previous post, by the way.