UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: AnneGuedes on February 26, 2014, 04:03:59 PM
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There are many, many abandoned children on our planet. They are ideal preys for paedophile gangs. Why would those abduct a child from his bed and have police forces pursing them ?
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There are many, many abandoned children on our planet. They are ideal preys for paedophile gangs. Why would those abduct a child from his bed and have police forces pursing them ?
It's a good point, Anne. Most children who are trafficked are from poor or war-torn areas and have already been abandoned.
Nonetheless, we cannot rule out anything here because we still don't know what has happened.
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There are many, many abandoned children on our planet. They are ideal preys for paedophile gangs. Why would those abduct a child from his bed and have police forces pursing them ?
A good point yes. Stealing a child from some third world country and from the streets would be much simpler and attract little attention. This makes me think whoever did this was a local opportunist who knew very well where to hide her.
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There are many, many abandoned children on our planet. They are ideal preys for paedophile gangs. Why would those abduct a child from his bed and have police forces pursing them ?
Maybe the twisted mind has a specific like for the specific child?
There was a case in the UK, in London.. where a boy was stabbed several times after on order of his mum he stopped speaking to the guy who was obsessed with him..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/740905.stm
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Why go to the bother of abducting a loved child with parents when abducting an orphan or one of the many homeless children in the world would have attracted so much less attention and risk?
Was this an indication that Madeleine's abductor was local to Praia da Luz?
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Why go to the bother of abducting a loved child with parents when abducting an orphan or one of the many homeless children in the world would have attracted so much less attention and risk?
Was this an indication that Madeleine's abductor was local to Praia da Luz?
An opportunist not taking her from bed but finding her in the street. Or someone who tried to help her, frightened her and got frightened.
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An opportunist not taking her from bed but finding her in the street. Or someone who tried to help her, frightened her and got frightened.
Very true, maybe the so-called abduction didn't start out as an abduction. My only reservation about this however is the fact that the front door was closed. Young children are not in the habit of closing doors behind them.
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Madeleine was not an abandoned child, but her location at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, evidently, made her more accessible than the average child.
The OC would be an ideal place for someone looking for a child: many children are present and grouped in specific areas (bit like a school playground); there us public access to the complex, which allows easy observability of the children and the complex itself, along with parents' routines; parents are occupied in their activities and in 'holiday mode', therefore not as vigilant with regard to security as they would be at home, and generally not as aware or observant or attuned to anomalies.
It would also be readily observable, as we have discussed, that there were long periods of time when children were apart from their parents. During the day, children were with often in play groups or with nannies, whom generally speaking even if very well trained do not provide the instinctive levels of vigilance of a parent. And at night, parents' social routines would probably be freer than at home.
As Anne says, a perpetrator still has to worry about being investigated. But as we have also discussed before, it is well documented that criminals often go to a sleepy place with only a provincial police presence at hand, in the hope of having an easier ride.
Perhaps globally it would have been better for someone planning an abduction to take a child from a war-torn or third world area where their actions would not ave been followed up.
But if an abductor was European, it would have been easier on balance to operate closer to home. In the European context, PdL, relatively speaking, is extremely quiet and remote and affords many opportunities for an abductor that many other places would not.
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How many sleepy holiday resorts are there in mainland and island Europe that "fit the bill" and from those resorts how many young children have been abducted in say the last 20 years? Is there a pattern that demonstrates that these holiday resorts are easier targets than the streets, railway stations, bus stations and shopping malls ?
The argument vis a vis abduction seems to me to be based on "it is possible therefore it happened". Not "it is improbable and there is no evidence to support it so it seems unlikely".
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Another reason I think Madeleine wasn't sourced is because of her eye defect which would have been almost impossible to disguise for any length of time. Sadie mentioned contact lenses and dark glasses at one time but those are only interim measures and in any event, contact lenses and a 3 year old just don't work. My own opinion is that some local child abuser saw the opportunity to grab her and has hidden her in the hills somewhere not too far from PdL.
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Another reason I think Madeleine wasn't sourced is because of her eye defect which would have been almost impossible to disguise for any length of time. Sadie mentioned contact lenses and dark glasses at one time but those are only interim measures and in any event, contact lenses and a 3 year old just don't work.
And you would have to go to an optician, which might arouse suspicion, though I suppose there will be dodgy opticians, just like there are dodgy doctors and lawyers.
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Another reason I think Madeleine wasn't sourced is because of her eye defect which would have been almost impossible to disguise for any length of time. Sadie mentioned contact lenses and dark glasses at one time but those are only interim measures and in any event, contact lenses and a 3 year old just don't work. My own opinion is that some local child abuser saw the opportunity to grab her and has hidden her in the hills somewhere not too far from PdL.
Yes, though it still stands that for a local child abuser, the OC was an environment with opportunities.
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And you would have to go to an optician, which might arouse suspicion, though I suppose there will be dodgy opticians, just like there are dodgy doctors and lawyers.
That would be one expensive Drs visit...
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Why would she need an optician?
Re 'why her' ..it could be so many reasons.. Why Elizabeth Smart? Why Natascha Kampusch? Not to mention the dead ones..
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Yes, though it still stands that for a local child abuser, the OC was an environment with opportunities.
What do you mean ? The about hundred British paedophiles who live in the Algarve ?
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Another reason I think Madeleine wasn't sourced is because of her eye defect which would have been almost impossible to disguise for any length of time.
Madeleine's own mother said the coloboma was hardly noticeable, the eyes' colour being not clear.
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What do you mean ? The about hundred British paedophiles who live in the Algarve ?
And who says there was none of them among the foreign OC workers working with children..they came from God knows where, and their past was never checked out..
I doubt Portugal has an equivalent of CRB check ( now called DBS) or even if they do then if a resort like MW comes under this law..
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What do you mean ? The about hundred British paedophiles who live in the Algarve ?
Absolutely. And hanging around the OC would present them with opportunities.
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Absolutely. And hanging around the OC would present them with opportunities.
total speculation
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total speculation
Indeed. I don't think the police have ever suggested that the place was infested with paedophiles, either working or on a vacation.
Somebody has a vivid imagination.
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Madeleine's own mother said the coloboma was hardly noticeable, the eyes' colour being not clear.
The photos tell a different story.
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Absolutely. And hanging around the OC would present them with opportunities.
Hanging around the OC ? Read the local witnesses instead of believing the rumour (= smoke without fire) launched by Mrs McCann's book about selective intruders abusing British kids.
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The photos tell a different story.
A close-up (old if you consider how fast children change at that age).
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There are many, many abandoned children on our planet. They are ideal preys for paedophile gangs. Why would those abduct a child from his bed and have police forces pursing them ?
in the Uk , maternity hospitals are like jails...with extreme security to get in and out...because people stole babies from uk hospitals
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EDITED to add more info
Hanging around the OC ? Read the local witnesses instead of believing the rumour (= smoke without fire) launched by Mrs McCann's book about selective intruders abusing British kids.
David Edgar mentioned this string of attacks in the general area but I cant fnd the newspaper report now, it detailes dates and areas, will keep looking, but it was before the book
I found these though
The company was replaced by a team led by former RUC police chief Dave Edgar and Arthur Cowley, who had 30 years’ experience with the British police. These experienced detectives brought a fresh and newly meticulous method of investigating the disappearance. Edgar said he firmly believed there was a good chance that Madeleine was still alive. He said: “This rural, sprawling terrain makes it extremely difficult to search. You could quite easily keep a child there for years and no one else would know.” He said there were as many as NINE sex attacks on children in the area around Praia da Luz between 2005 and 2007. The victims included British kids. Some cases happened just 20 miles from the resort.
Six of the victims were girls aged between three and ten. Speaking about Madeleine, Edgar said: “The key thing is, no body has been found. When paedophiles kill, they often dump the body nearby - and this isn’t the case here. Even if Maddie had been dumped in the sea by the resort, the ocean often gives up its victims. Until I find evidence that she is dead, I will keep going
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/78oct13/Sun_19_10_2013.htm
The sinister story of the subsequent police investigation serves as a very poor indictment on the Portuguese police, whose reaction was flabby, unintelligent and plain slack. One hopes they have put protocols in place to correct their procedures now. It is also terrifying to read that subsequent investigations revealed that in the three years prior to the McCann's visit to Portugal, five cases of children being sexually assaulted in their beds, while their parents slept in adjoining rooms, within an hour's drive of where they stayed, had been recorded. There are too many "if onlys" — and each one on its own was enough to fail Madeleine.
http://www.witness.co.za/index.php?showcontent&global%5B_id%5D=64175
Mr Edgar is convinced she was kidnapped and his team are still receiving a “substantial number” of calls and e-mails containing new information. While previous inquiries have led officers as far afield as Argentina and Australia, the focus is now firmly back in Portugal. The source went on: “They believe the answer lies in Praia da Luz. New information continues to come in.”
Links between the case and at least five sex attacks on British children near Praia da Luz have been ruled out.
Many known paedophiles in the area have also been discounted.
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2010/01/rent-cop-dave-edgar-maddie-is-alive-and.html
Eta I found the quote from the newspaper
APRIL 14, 2004: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from Praia da Luz (PDA). s.e.x assault on 10-year-old girl.
JUNE 9 2005: Sao Rafael, near Sesmarias, 50 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on nine-year-old girl.
JUNE 2 2006: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on seven-year-old girl and her 10-year-old sister in separate rooms.
OCTOBER 29 2006: Albufeira, 45 miles from PDA. s.e.x assault on eight-year-old girl
CHRISTMAS DAY, 2006: Silves, 35 miles from PDA. Attempted abduction of three-year-old girl.
MAY 28 2007: Albufeira. 45 miles from PDA. Intruder disturbed at the bottom of nine-year-old girl's bed.
It doesnt all add up
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total speculation
But I'm sure many people see the Algarve as a barbarian country.
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But I'm sure many people see the Algarve as a barbarian country.
More fools them
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David Edgar mentioned this string of attacks in the general area but I cant fnd the newspaper report now, it detailes dates and areas, will keep looking, but it was before the book
I found these though
The company was replaced by a team led by former RUC police chief Dave Edgar and Arthur Cowley, who had 30 years’ experience with the British police. These experienced detectives brought a fresh and newly meticulous method of investigating the disappearance. Edgar said he firmly believed there was a good chance that Madeleine was still alive. He said: “This rural, sprawling terrain makes it extremely difficult to search. You could quite easily keep a child there for years and no one else would know.” He said there were as many as NINE sex attacks on children in the area around Praia da Luz between 2005 and 2007. The victims included British kids. Some cases happened just 20 miles from the resort.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/78oct13/Sun_19_10_2013.htm
The sinister story of the subsequent police investigation serves as a very poor indictment on the Portuguese police, whose reaction was flabby, unintelligent and plain slack. One hopes they have put protocols in place to correct their procedures now. It is also terrifying to read that subsequent investigations revealed that in the three years prior to the McCann's visit to Portugal, five cases of children being sexually assaulted in their beds, while their parents slept in adjoining rooms, within an hour's drive of where they stayed, had been recorded. There are too many "if onlys" — and each one on its own was enough to fail Madeleine.
http://www.witness.co.za/index.php?showcontent&global%5B_id%5D=64175
Mr Edgar is convinced she was kidnapped and his team are still receiving a “substantial number” of calls and e-mails containing new information. While previous inquiries have led officers as far afield as Argentina and Australia, the focus is now firmly back in Portugal. The source went on: “They believe the answer lies in Praia da Luz. New information continues to come in.”
Links between the case and at least five sex attacks on British children near Praia da Luz have been ruled out.
Many known paedophiles in the area have also been discounted.
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2010/01/rent-cop-dave-edgar-maddie-is-alive-and.html
Of course no source, only rumours which served very well the McCanns (also one has to reckon that Edgar and co had to provide something for the money they got), though those maniacs abused in bed and not from bed.
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Another reason I think Madeleine wasn't sourced is because of her eye defect which would have been almost impossible to disguise for any length of time. Sadie mentioned contact lenses and dark glasses at one time but those are only interim measures and in any event, contact lenses and a 3 year old just don't work. My own opinion is that some local child abuser saw the opportunity to grab her and has hidden her in the hills somewhere not too far from PdL.
http://www.clspectrum.com/articleviewer.aspx?articleID=104098
Photos 3A and 3B
I had a much better webpage than this before, but cannot find it now.
I doubt that she would have worn such contact lenses at the age of 4 ... but a four year old could be vanished quite easily for a couple or so years, if money is no object. By the age of six or seven, my guess is if that peeps were saying that UGH her eyes looked like snakes eyes, she would quickly embrace the wearing of contact lenses.
Little girls can be very vain.
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http://www.clspectrum.com/articleviewer.aspx?articleID=104098
Photos 3A and 3B
I had a much better webpage than this before, but cannot find it now.
I doubt that she would have worn such contact lenses at the age of 4 ... but a four year old could be vanished quite easily for a couple or so years, if money is no object. By the age of six or seven, my guess is if that peeps were saying that UGH her eyes looked like snakes eyes, she would quickly embrace the wearing of contact lenses.
Little girls can be very vain.
Well we know that Madeleine was described as...
...a very striking err beautiful child, I’d almost if I want a better phrase call her doll-like, you know she was very, you know I think, you know very unique looking child err, she’d got very pretty, you know blonde hair err in a bob, she was quite a petite err child and you know she was very bubbly, very err you know she was a very good child to, to interact with. She was very bright, you could have a lot of fun with Madeleine ... She was, you know, very, she is a very beautiful child and good fun.”
But why would money be no object. If you want to abduct a little girl then surely you pick one with no unique identifying features and preferably one whose parents are less likely to as politically savee.
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Madeleine was not an abandoned child, but her location at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, evidently, made her more accessible than the average child.
The OC would be an ideal place for someone looking for a child: many children are present and grouped in specific areas (bit like a school playground); there us public access to the complex, which allows easy observability of the children and the complex itself, along with parents' routines; parents are occupied in their activities and in 'holiday mode', therefore not as vigilant with regard to security as they would be at home, and generally not as aware or observant or attuned to anomalies.
It would also be readily observable, as we have discussed, that there were long periods of time when children were apart from their parents. During the day, children were with often in play groups or with nannies, whom generally speaking even if very well trained do not provide the instinctive levels of vigilance of a parent. And at night, parents' social routines would probably be freer than at home.
As Anne says, a perpetrator still has to worry about being investigated. But as we have also discussed before, it is well documented that criminals often go to a sleepy place with only a provincial police presence at hand, in the hope of having an easier ride.
Perhaps globally it would have been better for someone planning an abduction to take a child from a war-torn or third world area where their actions would not ave been followed up.
But if an abductor was European, it would have been easier on balance to operate closer to home. In the European context, PdL, relatively speaking, is extremely quiet and remote and affords many opportunities for an abductor that many other places would not.
[/color] I ACTUALLY THINK THIS WOULD MAKE IT MORE IMPOSSIBLE SEE NOTE BELOW.
All very good, BUT it was out of season so not so many people, or children, and being in a local area with lots of ex pats, any stranger would have been clocked.
ALSO there are loads of playgrounds in portugal, where lots of kids play, why steal an English child when they can take one of their own.
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Well we know that Madeleine was described as...
But why would money be no object. If you want to abduct a little girl then surely you pick one with no unique identifying features and preferably one whose parents are less likely to as politically savee.
David Paynes daughter was just as pretty and sweet as Maddy, and from a witness statement there were at least ELEVEN pretty blonde girls on the tennis court one day, so why take the McCanns child if someone was stalking and looking.
Anyway IF someone just wanted to abduct a blonde child and were stalking the McCanns I would think they would have gone for the pretty small twin Amelie who was very cute and sweet looking and would have been easy to carry. WHAT A HORRIBLE thought, we are discussing the abduction of young children by perverts like it was a normal day. Jeez, makes my stomach hurl.
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David Paynes daughter was just as pretty and sweet as Maddy, and from a witness statement there were at least ELEVEN pretty blonde girls on the tennis court one day, so why take the McCanns child if someone was stalking and looking.
Anyway IF someone just wanted to abduct a blonde child and were stalking the McCanns I would think they would have gone for the pretty small twin Amelie who was very cute and sweet looking and would have been easy to carry. WHAT A HORRIBLE thought, we are discussing the abduction of young children by perverts like it was a normal day. Jeez, makes my stomach hurl.
Agreed, trouble is that is the someone looking to snatch a young child would likely think.
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How many sleepy holiday resorts are there in mainland and island Europe that "fit the bill" and from those resorts how many young children have been abducted in say the last 20 years? Is there a pattern that demonstrates that these holiday resorts are easier targets than the streets, railway stations, bus stations and shopping malls ?
The argument vis a vis abduction seems to me to be based on "it is possible therefore it happened". Not "it is improbable and there is no evidence to support it so it seems unlikely".
You make an absolutely convincing argument to show why the McCanns did not fear that Maddie would be abducted...it is so highly unlikely
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Clearly nothing can explain the rank stupidity and arrogance of leaving vulnerable children by themselves, unprotected and in clearly insecure accommodation, in a country they did not know.
It completely defies logic, and I don't care how many times I here excuses for this behaviour, like 'I've done it myself' as some posters on here have claimed. Going out to wine and dine was put on a higher level of priority than their children's' safety.
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Clearly nothing can explain the rank stupidity and arrogance of leaving vulnerable children by themselves, unprotected and in clearly insecure accommodation, in a country they did not know.
It completely defies logic, and I don't care how many times I here excuses for this behaviour, like 'I've done it myself' as some posters on here have claimed. Going out to wine and dine was put on a higher level of priority than their children's' safety.
And nothing can explain the rank stupidity that believes that behind every lamp post tree etc the length and breadth of The Algarve there lurketh an abductor/paedophile just waiting to pounce. Like the heads of the hydra in the Labour's of Herlycwes get rid of one and ten more pop up. Give me strength.
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Why go to the bother of abducting a loved child with parents when abducting an orphan or one of the many homeless children in the world would have attracted so much less attention and risk?
Was this an indication that Madeleine's abductor was local to Praia da Luz?
I certainly wouldn't exclude that possibility, although the person (or persons) might not have been resident in PdL itself.
What potential misfit could have anticipated the enduring publicity over this case?
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David Paynes daughter was just as pretty and sweet as Maddy, and from a witness statement there were at least ELEVEN pretty blonde girls on the tennis court one day, so why take the McCanns child if someone was stalking and looking.
Anyway IF someone just wanted to abduct a blonde child and were stalking the McCanns I would think they would have gone for the pretty small twin Amelie who was very cute and sweet looking and would have been easy to carry. WHAT A HORRIBLE thought, we are discussing the abduction of young children by perverts like it was a normal day. Jeez, makes my stomach hurl.
I think Madeleine was easier to take being in the apartment she was in. Also would Amelie be recognised as being a girl? If the twins were both dressed in white it would be hard to tell. Though I think they wanted an
older girl.
It is horrible discussing the abduction of children for perverts, but could be they were abducting for adoption.
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I know everyone will groan when I mention Raymond Hewlett.
But I can't help but wonder why he would tell his friend even before the police spoke to him, that a gypsy had offered to buy his daughter who looked like Madeleine.
Now if this friend can be believed and Raymond Hewlett DID say this, I am wondering if Raymond Hewlett had something to do with Madeleine's disappearance.
He could have been the one who tipped off the abductors that there was a child similar in looks to his own.
Also he could have been the one who took Madeleine away, if stopped or questioned he could say that 'no it's my child' if Madeleine looked like one of his he could fob off any sightings as 'no it was my daughter they must have seen'. Another thing if he had a passport with his daughter's photo, anyone could get away with taking Madeleine out of the country by using it.
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What potential misfit could have anticipated the enduring publicity over this case?
Come on, Carana, don't forget this is the only case in Europe of an abduction from bed !
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I know everyone will groan when I mention Raymond Hewlett.
But I can't help but wonder why he would tell his friend even before the police spoke to him, that a gypsy had offered to buy his daughter who looked like Madeleine.
Now if this friend can be believed and Raymond Hewlett DID say this, I am wondering if Raymond Hewlett had something to do with Madeleine's disappearance.
He could have been the one who tipped off the abductors that there was a child similar in looks to his own.
Also he could have been the one who took Madeleine away, if stopped or questioned he could say that 'no it's my child' if Madeleine looked like one of his he could fob off any sightings as 'no it was my daughter they must have seen'. Another thing if he had a passport with his daughter's photo, anyone could get away with taking Madeleine out of the country by using it.
How much of that is true though and not made up or hearsay. Nearest you will get to anythng much IMO is an actual interview, which seems he did.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-suspect-raymond-hewlett-399811
He was the latest "Maddie beast" at the time, seems there was no evidence of any sort of involvement.
If you want a media induced migraine search on mccannfiles for all the "stories"
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How much of that is true though and not made up or hearsay. Nearest you will get to anythng much IMO is an actual interview, which seems he did.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-suspect-raymond-hewlett-399811
He was the latest "Maddie beast" at the time, seems there was no evidence of any sort of involvement.
If you want a media induced migraine search on mccannfiles for all the "stories"
He says 'I didn't kill the McCann girl' I wasn't saying he killed her, just tipped off abductors where she was, then maybe transported her somewhere.
Yes he looked frail and ill then but he wasn't in 2007.
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read the whole article Lace!
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read the whole article Lace!
The bit where he says the PJ came to interview him? Maybe he had handed over Madeleine to the Gypsies until he could take her to Morocco. Did the police search the Gypsy camp? No I don't think they did.
And where did his white van disappear to? The one he said he didn't own. Where did he get the money to suddenly go to Morocco?
It all doesn't add up to me.
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read the whole article Lace!
The bit where he says the PJ came to interview him? Maybe he had handed over Madeleine to the Gypsies until he could take her to Morocco. Did the police search the Gypsy camp? No I don't think they did.
And where did his white van disappear to? The one he said he didn't own. Where did he get the money to suddenly go to Morocco?
It all doesn't add up to me.
When you get actual facts perhaps then you can start trying to add anything up, before then, you will just get yourself into a muddle, if you rely on the ridiculous Sun and its cohorts and made up stories or hearsay. Just saying.
Is he or ever was a PJ or SY suspect? No.
Is there any evidence? No.
Does his past history i nvolve toddlers? No.
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Come on, Carana, don't forget this is the only case in Europe of an abduction from bed !
As opposed to from a bathtub with the mother in the room next door? Unfortunately, I don't understand all of the European languages, and I haven't yet found a comprehensive study on all the circumsances surrounding missing, possibly abducted, children even in the UK, let alone throughout Europe. If you have, I would be interested in any links.
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There is still no convincing argument for making off with a child from a holiday apartment rather than an easier location.Smacks of looking for a likely tale to add credence to a preconceived idea.
This is "the" interesting part. Why ? What would we lose if the preconceived idea blew up ?
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Clearly nothing can explain the rank stupidity and arrogance of leaving vulnerable children by themselves, unprotected and in clearly insecure accommodation, in a country they did not know.
It completely defies logic, and I don't care how many times I here excuses for this behaviour, like 'I've done it myself' as some posters on here have claimed. Going out to wine and dine was put on a higher level of priority than their children's' safety.
What were they in danger from.....abduction
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It is all quite simple to me. Anyone prepared to pay good money to adopt a child would have wanted a well nurtured child with a reasonable level of intelligence. They would not have been prepared to take a chance on a street urchin who had been badly fed and grossly neglected. This is just plain, common sense.
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It is all quite simple to me. Anyone prepared to pay good money to adopt a child would have wanted a well nurtured child with a reasonable level of intelligence. They would not have been prepared to take a chance on a street urchin who had been badly fed and grossly neglected. This is just plain, common sense.
What you mean they couldnt feed them and nurture them back to normality? And what if Madeleine had some hidden health problem? Poor poor argument. As for judging the intelligence of a chiild...words fail
@)(++(*
Scraping barrels again!
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It is all quite simple to me. Anyone prepared to pay good money to adopt a child would have wanted a well nurtured child with a reasonable level of intelligence. They would not have been prepared to take a chance on a street urchin who had been badly fed and grossly neglected. This is just plain, common sense.
makes absolute sense...similar to artificial insemination where donors with the best attributes are in demand