Author Topic: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.  (Read 26695 times)

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Offline Brietta

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #165 on: February 20, 2019, 06:35:52 PM »
Perhaps you could explain how Scotland would benefit by leaving the United Kingdom?

What??? with the country going to the dogs at the accelerated speed it has achieved of late ... are you seeeriously asking that???
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #166 on: February 20, 2019, 06:41:22 PM »
Perhaps you could explain how Scotland would benefit by leaving the United Kingdom?
They could rejoin the EU for a start.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Brietta

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #167 on: February 20, 2019, 06:51:07 PM »
They could rejoin the EU for a start.
Might not be a bad idea ... if quick enough to get it off the ground Honda et al who are not relocating as a result of Brexit ... might decide to move here; I think we might even have a few derelict industrial cites from the eighties going spare.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #168 on: February 20, 2019, 06:55:35 PM »
They could rejoin the EU for a start.

That's a fairly recent idea which might ot might not be allowed or of benefit. What benefits were they antiicipating before the Brexit fuss?
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #169 on: February 20, 2019, 06:56:41 PM »
That's a fairly recent idea which might ot might not be allowed or of benefit. What benefits were they antiicipating before the Brexit fuss?
Taking back control I think.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #170 on: February 20, 2019, 06:59:37 PM »
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #171 on: February 20, 2019, 07:02:03 PM »
Of what?
Their country?  Their assets?  Their sovereignty? 
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #172 on: February 20, 2019, 07:04:03 PM »
Here you go:


Reasons that have been cited in favour of independence include:

Democracy and national self-determination: Scotland's population will possess full decision-making power in regard to the political affairs of its nation. First Minister Salmond stated in a May 2012 launch that "the people who live in Scotland are best placed to make the decisions that affect Scotland."[89]
Nuclear disarmament: with control over defence and foreign policy, an independent Scotland could address the removal of Trident nuclear weapons, an issue long-associated with the campaign for an independent Scotland, as outlined in the House of Commons Defence Committee's white paper "The future of the UK's strategic nuclear deterrent: the White Paper" of 2006-2007.[90][91] In a July 2013 Huffington Post UK article, the writer suggested that the £25 billion spent on a "like-for-like replacement of the Trident nuclear deterrent" could instead be diverted to education, healthcare and housing.[92] Additionally, the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament supports independence on this basis.[93]
"It's Scotland's oil": since being used as a highly effective slogan by the SNP in the 1970s,[94] this phrase has encapsulated the argument that only an independent Scotland be able to fully utilise and exploit the financial benefits of its national resources, including North Sea oil and gas, for the benefit of the population.[95] According to the Scottish Government, 64% of the EU's oil reserves exist in Scottish waters,[96] while the David Hume Institute stated: "Scotland is sitting on oil and gas reserves worth up to £4 trillion".[97] Investment in and production from the North Sea oilfields dropped sharply after Tory chancellor George Osborne imposed punitive taxes, undercutting the projected revenue an independent Scotland could claim.[98]
Renewable energy: if independence is attained, supporters of the new political structure seek to fully harness Scotland's natural renewable energy resources: 25 per cent of Europe's wind energy potential; 25 per cent of Europe's tidal energy potential; and 10 per cent of Europe's wave energy potential.[99] Salmond claims that this could lead to the "re-industrialisation" of Scotland.[100]
A "cultural reawakening": groups like National Collective, a "non-party movement for artists and creatives who support Scottish independence", believe that the opportunities of independence, and the possibilities created, would unleash a fresh wave of cultural ideas, expression and self-confidence in Scotland.[101][102]
"Stop the world, Scotland wants to get on" (a statement by Winnie Ewing, upon her victory for the SNP in the 1967 Hamilton by-election)[citation needed]: an independent Scotland would be a full and equal member of the United Nations, NATO and the European Union and many other international organisations.[103] With an autonomous voice in international politics, Scottish independence campaigners believe the nation's global influence would increase in regard to the defence of its national interests and the promotion of its values. It has been claimed that the number of MEPs elected by Scotland would also rise, from six to at least 12.[104] Furthermore, Scottish embassies would be established globally to promote Scotland internationally, and to lobby other governments on the nation's behalf.[10
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #173 on: February 20, 2019, 08:46:32 PM »
Here you go:


Reasons that have been cited in favour of independence include:

Democracy and national self-determination: Scotland's population will possess full decision-making power in regard to the political affairs of its nation. First Minister Salmond stated in a May 2012 launch that "the people who live in Scotland are best placed to make the decisions that affect Scotland."[89]
Nuclear disarmament: with control over defence and foreign policy, an independent Scotland could address the removal of Trident nuclear weapons, an issue long-associated with the campaign for an independent Scotland, as outlined in the House of Commons Defence Committee's white paper "The future of the UK's strategic nuclear deterrent: the White Paper" of 2006-2007.[90][91] In a July 2013 Huffington Post UK article, the writer suggested that the £25 billion spent on a "like-for-like replacement of the Trident nuclear deterrent" could instead be diverted to education, healthcare and housing.[92] Additionally, the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament supports independence on this basis.[93]
"It's Scotland's oil": since being used as a highly effective slogan by the SNP in the 1970s,[94] this phrase has encapsulated the argument that only an independent Scotland be able to fully utilise and exploit the financial benefits of its national resources, including North Sea oil and gas, for the benefit of the population.[95] According to the Scottish Government, 64% of the EU's oil reserves exist in Scottish waters,[96] while the David Hume Institute stated: "Scotland is sitting on oil and gas reserves worth up to £4 trillion".[97] Investment in and production from the North Sea oilfields dropped sharply after Tory chancellor George Osborne imposed punitive taxes, undercutting the projected revenue an independent Scotland could claim.[98]
Renewable energy: if independence is attained, supporters of the new political structure seek to fully harness Scotland's natural renewable energy resources: 25 per cent of Europe's wind energy potential; 25 per cent of Europe's tidal energy potential; and 10 per cent of Europe's wave energy potential.[99] Salmond claims that this could lead to the "re-industrialisation" of Scotland.[100]
A "cultural reawakening": groups like National Collective, a "non-party movement for artists and creatives who support Scottish independence", believe that the opportunities of independence, and the possibilities created, would unleash a fresh wave of cultural ideas, expression and self-confidence in Scotland.[101][102]
"Stop the world, Scotland wants to get on" (a statement by Winnie Ewing, upon her victory for the SNP in the 1967 Hamilton by-election)[citation needed]: an independent Scotland would be a full and equal member of the United Nations, NATO and the European Union and many other international organisations.[103] With an autonomous voice in international politics, Scottish independence campaigners believe the nation's global influence would increase in regard to the defence of its national interests and the promotion of its values. It has been claimed that the number of MEPs elected by Scotland would also rise, from six to at least 12.[104] Furthermore, Scottish embassies would be established globally to promote Scotland internationally, and to lobby other governments on the nation's behalf.[10

It sounds good, but was it possible?  In my opinion none of that was guaranteed. Were they planning on leaving themselves without any military defences? NS oil and gas are no longer cash cows, and all those organisations would have to be asked if they would accept Scotland as a member,
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #174 on: February 20, 2019, 09:01:34 PM »
It sounds good, but was it possible?  In my opinion none of that was guaranteed. Were they planning on leaving themselves without any military defences? NS oil and gas are no longer cash cows, and all those organisations would have to be asked if they would accept Scotland as a member,
Tell me one thing that’s guaranteed by Brexit.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #175 on: February 21, 2019, 06:02:55 AM »
Tell me one thing that’s guaranteed by Brexit.

An end to the free movement of EU citizens into the UK.

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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #176 on: February 21, 2019, 07:13:13 AM »
An end to the free movement of EU citizens into the UK.
And what is stopping them entering the UK via the Irish border?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #177 on: February 21, 2019, 07:27:17 AM »
And what is stopping them entering the UK via the Irish border?

To do what? Work illegally?
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #178 on: February 21, 2019, 07:56:08 AM »
To do what? Work illegally?
Of course.  But also

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-easy-will-it-be-for-eu-citizens-to-stay-in-britain

and this

Visitors can come to the UK for purposes of tourism, visiting friends, business visits and similar. Visitors can stay for maximum 6 months in each 12 months. Not 6 months from each entry to the UK. Even if your visitor visa is for 5 or 10 years you can still stay for maximum 180 days in each of those years.18 Jun 2013
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 08:20:01 AM by Vertigo Swirl »
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #179 on: February 22, 2019, 10:35:37 AM »
Of course.  But also

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-easy-will-it-be-for-eu-citizens-to-stay-in-britain

and this

Visitors can come to the UK for purposes of tourism, visiting friends, business visits and similar. Visitors can stay for maximum 6 months in each 12 months. Not 6 months from each entry to the UK. Even if your visitor visa is for 5 or 10 years you can still stay for maximum 180 days in each of those years.18 Jun 2013

Visitors aren't immigrants. Most of them aren't entitled to work, apply for social housing or benefits. If they overstay they can be sent home.
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