UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on July 17, 2019, 11:58:36 AM
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in similar circumstances?
MW offered a listening service at some sites but this was through locked doors. Parents do leave children in hotel rooms but again in locked rooms with or without some sort of monitor/listening service.
Does anyone know of children left as the McCann children were left. Imo this case revolves around the unusualness of the combination:
- No adult supervision
- No listening service
- No baby monitor
- Unlocked patio doors
- Parents leaving at same time every night for same destination and re-entering and exiting the patio doors (which can't be locked from outside) at sort of regular intervals several times a night.
And lets not forget children of T7 were all in locked rooms.
Was KM trying to have it all? A working mum (GP) of 3 under 4 yoa who by the time of arriving at PDL was exhausted and lost her head?
I don't wish to sound judgmental and/or sanctimonious but the above are the facts and imo it has been unhelpful to downplay the precarious situation MM and the twins were left in. Do people not see the facts or are they pussy-footing around the McCanns to assuage their inevitable guilt and regret?
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in similar circumstances?
MW offered a listening service at some sites but this was through locked doors. Parents do leave children in hotel rooms but again in locked rooms with or without some sort of monitor/listening service.
Does anyone know of children left as the McCann children were left. Imo this case revolves around the unusualness of the combination:
- No adult supervision
- No listening service
- No baby monitor
- Unlocked patio doors
- Parents leaving at same time every night for same destination and re-entering and exiting the patio doors (which can't be locked from outside) at sort of regular intervals several times a night.
And lets not forget children of T7 were all in locked rooms.
Was KM trying to have it all? A working mum (GP) of 3 under 4 yoa who by the time of arriving at PDL was exhausted and lost her head?
I don't wish to sound judgmental and/or sanctimonious but the above are the facts and imo it has been unhelpful to downplay the precarious situation MM and the twins were left in. Do people not see the facts or are they pussy-footing around the McCanns to assuage their inevitable guilt and regret?
I think most of us realise it was the wrong thing to do but I dint see the point in continually harping on about it..
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I think most of us realise it was the wrong thing to do but I dint see the point in continually harping on about it..
But this is the very point I am making; it's not a question of making moral judgments etc but simply highlighting the unusualness of the way in which the children were left is imo key to solving the case.
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But this is the very point I am making; it's not a question of making moral judgments etc but simply highlighting the unusualness of the way in which the children were left is imo key to solving the case.
I would suggest the reason MM is the only child who has disappeared from overseas holiday accommodation since mass tourism took off in the 60's/70's is not that:
- she was somehow special to anyone outside her circle of family and friends
- criminal gangs were lurking in the shadows
- creepy lone men were lurking in the shadows
- MW/OC staff procured a key to 5A
- burglars decided to abandon looking for the usual valuables to sell on for quick, easy ready cash
but that the circumstances in which MM and the twins were left provided a low risk opportunity for someone who wanted a child. And those circumstances could only have been known to a finite number of people.
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But this is the very point I am making; it's not a question of making moral judgments etc but simply highlighting the unusualness of the way in which the children were left is imo key to solving the case.
How does it solve the case?
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I would suggest the reason MM is the only child who has disappeared from overseas holiday accommodation since mass tourism took off in the 60's/70's is not that:
- she was somehow special to anyone outside her circle of family and friends
- criminal gangs were lurking in the shadows
- creepy lone men were lurking in the shadows
- MW/OC staff procured a key to 5A
- burglars decided to abandon looking for the usual valuables to sell on for quick, easy ready cash
but that the circumstances in which MM and the twins were left provided a low risk opportunity for someone who wanted a child. And those circumstances could only have been known to a finite number of people.
What about a day where all of the above all rub shoulders?
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I would suggest the reason MM is the only child who has disappeared from overseas holiday accommodation since mass tourism took off in the 60's/70's is not that:
- she was somehow special to anyone outside her circle of family and friends
- criminal gangs were lurking in the shadows
- creepy lone men were lurking in the shadows
- MW/OC staff procured a key to 5A
- burglars decided to abandon looking for the usual valuables to sell on for quick, easy ready cash
but that the circumstances in which MM and the twins were left provided a low risk opportunity for someone who wanted a child. And those circumstances could only have been known to a finite number of people.
You might wish to view the Panorama 10th anniversary special.
I'm not going to name names, but you appear to be heading down a track which might lead you to said person, based on information mainly in the PJ Files.
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How does it solve the case?
Well because it isn't like searching for a needle in a haystack imo. The key to solving the case imo is to identify who knew
- No adult supervision
- No listening service
- No baby monitor
- Unlocked patio doors
- Parents leaving at same time every night for same destination and re-entering and exiting the patio doors (which can't be locked from outside) at sort of regular intervals several times a night.
Put all such individuals under the microscope along with any testimonies provided to date.
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You might wish to view the Panorama 10th anniversary special.
I'm not going to name names, but you appear to be heading down a track which might lead you to said person, based on information mainly in the PJ Files.
Could cadaver dogs be useful in helping Holly find this said person?
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Well because it isn't like searching for a needle in a haystack imo. The key to solving the case imo is to identify who knew
- No adult supervision
- No listening service
- No baby monitor
- Unlocked patio doors
- Parents leaving at same time every night for same destination and re-entering and exiting the patio doors (which can't be locked from outside) at sort of regular intervals several times a night.
Put all such individuals under the microscope along with any testimonies provided to date.
Di you not think this will not already have been done
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You might wish to view the Panorama 10th anniversary special.
I'm not going to name names, but you appear to be heading down a track which might lead you to said person, based on information mainly in the PJ Files.
Thanks. I think I might have listened to it; is it the one presented by I think Jeremy Vine? Anyway I'll listen again and see if it aligns with my theory and suspects.
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Di you not think this will not already have been done
No.
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No.
I would think it has... Basic policing
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in similar circumstances?
MW offered a listening service at some sites but this was through locked doors. Parents do leave children in hotel rooms but again in locked rooms with or without some sort of monitor/listening service.
Does anyone know of children left as the McCann children were left. Imo this case revolves around the unusualness of the combination:
- No adult supervision
- No listening service
- No baby monitor
- Unlocked patio doors
- Parents leaving at same time every night for same destination and re-entering and exiting the patio doors (which can't be locked from outside) at sort of regular intervals several times a night.
And lets not forget children of T7 were all in locked rooms.
Was KM trying to have it all? A working mum (GP) of 3 under 4 yoa who by the time of arriving at PDL was exhausted and lost her head?
I don't wish to sound judgmental and/or sanctimonious but the above are the facts and imo it has been unhelpful to downplay the precarious situation MM and the twins were left in. Do people not see the facts or are they pussy-footing around the McCanns to assuage their inevitable guilt and regret?
The abduction & murder of Sophie Hook appears to fit most of your criteria.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Hook
Adding to that, my daughter recently helped out at a food festival which involved also camping out overnight. There were several families on the campsite but during the evening she worked (until almost midnight) she observed several parents enjoying the entertainment & drinking, children nowhere in sight. She believed the children were in the tents on their own........
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The abduction & murder of Sophie Hook appears to fit most of your criteria.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Hook
Oh yes I recall this case now but again its circumstances colliding ie Hughes in the vicinity and spying on the children listening to the conversation about spending a night in the tent. Its the combi of an opportunity presenting and a vulnerable young child but the difference here is that Hughes was caught and convicted, the victim's body was recovered and the motive was clear. Also he was seen lurking and identified. He did not have time to prepare it was that night or never.
Adding to that, my daughter recently helped out at a food festival which involved also camping out overnight. There were several families on the campsite but during the evening she worked (until almost midnight) she observed several parents enjoying the entertainment & drinking, children nowhere in sight. She believed the children were in the tents on their own........
Well I don't know the set-up here but anyone who wanted to abduct a child from such an environment would need to enter the tent perhaps not knowing exactly who was inside including any dogs and then the child would have to be assaulted/murdered then and there and/or spirited away elsewhere which may or may not have presented difficulties. And from what you're saying no child was actually assaulted, murdered or disappeared?
The situation with MM was far lower risk and the way in which the children were left night after night allowed the perps to plan ahead.
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I would think it has... Basic policing
Then why ask? And how do you know what I am alluding to? The police make errors and oversights; they are after all human.
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Oh yes I recall this case now but again its circumstances colliding ie Hughes in the vicinity and spying on the children listening to the conversation about spending a night in the tent. Its the combi of an opportunity presenting and a vulnerable young child but the difference here is that Hughes was caught and convicted. Also he was seen lurking and identified. He did not have time to prepare it was that night or never.
Well I don't know the set-up here but anyone who wanted to abduct a child from such an environment would need to enter the tent perhaps not knowing exactly who was inside including any dogs and then the child would have to be assaulted/murdered then and there and/or spirited away elsewhere which may or may not have presented difficulties. And from what you're saying no child was actually assaulted, murdered or disappeared?
The situation with MM was far lower risk and the way in which the children were left night after night allowed the perps to plan ahead.
Hughes was convicted on the basis of certain eye-witness evidence. There was no forensic evidence linking him to Sophie, although the crime happened at a time when DNA harvesting & identification was far less sophisticated than today's methods. He did take a massive risk taking a child from a tent in which 2 other children were also sleeping.
Most petty burglaries require only basic planning & opportunity. Breaking & entering 5A was no different imo. There were no dogs, no nosey neighbours, security cameras or alarms to be bypassed and the only physical patrols were the sporadic checks by the Tapas Group. However, I don't believe Madeleine's alleged abduction was entirely opportunistic - I believe she was the target(reason as yet unknown), a plan was quickly formed & executed. It didn't necessarily boil down to knowledge of the children being left alone each night, bearing in mind that almost all the lurkers were seen during daytime hours; the absence of adult supervision just made the job less risky.
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Could cadaver dogs be useful in helping Holly find this said person?
In a word, no.
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Then why ask? And how do you know what I am alluding to? The police make errors and oversights; they are after all human.
Everything you are posting is pure speculation...when there's a vacuum you can put anything in...
You don't seem to have much faith in the police and think the armchair detectives here can do better... I think that's a totally ridiculous idea
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Thanks. I think I might have listened to it; is it the one presented by I think Jeremy Vine? Anyway I'll listen again and see if it aligns with my theory and suspects.
Richard Bilton.
He has followed the case from early days. Make up your own mind about him.
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Everything you are posting is pure speculation...when there's a vacuum you can put anything in...
You don't seem to have much faith in the police and think the armchair detectives here can do better... I think that's a totally ridiculous idea
Where have I said I don't have much faith in the police? Where have I said armchair detectives here can do better?
Where is the speculation in the following:
- No adult supervision
- No listening service
- No baby monitor
- Unlocked patio doors
- Parents leaving at same time every night for same destination and re-entering and exiting the patio doors (which can't be locked from outside) at sort of regular intervals several times a night.
-
Well because it isn't like searching for a needle in a haystack imo. The key to solving the case imo is to identify who knew
- No adult supervision
- No listening service
- No baby monitor
- Unlocked patio doors
- Parents leaving at same time every night for same destination and re-entering and exiting the patio doors (which can't be locked from outside) at sort of regular intervals several times a night.
Put all such individuals under the microscope along with any testimonies provided to date.
The speculation is that this is the key to solving the case..
The other point us we may not know all the people who satisfy these conditions...
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The speculation is that this is the key to solving the case..
No it isn't speculation. The following docu featuring experts focuses on entry/exit points and former police officer Ian Horrocks does the same:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khP0dEsZaug
https://www.bgpglobalservices.com/happened-madeleine-mccann-2/
The other point us we may not know all the people who satisfy these conditions...
I believe it is possible to identify every one and put them under the microscope.
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No it isn't speculation. The following docu featuring experts focuses on entry/exit points and former police officer Ian Horrocks does the same:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khP0dEsZaug
https://www.bgpglobalservices.com/happened-madeleine-mccann-2/
I believe it is possible to identify every one and put them under the microscope.
You said it is "The key"...that is not a fact.. Speculation
You say it's possible to identify all those who meet your criteria... Not a fact.. More speculation
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Hughes was convicted on the basis of certain eye-witness evidence. There was no forensic evidence linking him to Sophie, although the crime happened at a time when DNA harvesting & identification was far less sophisticated than today's methods. He did take a massive risk taking a child from a tent in which 2 other children were also sleeping.
Most petty burglaries require only basic planning & opportunity. Breaking & entering 5A was no different imo. There were no dogs, no nosey neighbours, security cameras or alarms to be bypassed and the only physical patrols were the sporadic checks by the Tapas Group. However, I don't believe Madeleine's alleged abduction was entirely opportunistic - I believe she was the target(reason as yet unknown), a plan was quickly formed & executed. It didn't necessarily boil down to knowledge of the children being left alone each night, bearing in mind that almost all the lurkers were seen during daytime hours; the absence of adult supervision just made the job less risky.
I thought he confessed to 3 individuals too including his father?
Petty burglary is surely a different crime to that of child abduction? No one need to break into 5A since it was unlocked? But others were sitting out on balconies and could view what was going on both in terms of planning any abduction and witnessing any abduction?
Is there any evidence the daytime 'lurkers' were involved?
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You said it is "The key"...that is not a fact.. Speculation
You say it's possible to identify all those who meet your criteria... Not a fact.. More speculation
No I did not say it is "The Key". I said "The key to solving the case imo is to identify who knew"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10893.msg546207#msg546207
12 million has been spent on the case by SY alone and you want me to believe that its beyond the authorities to trace everyone who was able to observe the McCann movements?
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No I did not say it is "The Key". I said "The key to solving the case imo is to identify who knew"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10893.msg546207#msg546207
12 million has been spent on the case by SY alone and you want me to believe that its beyond the authorities to trace everyone who was able to observe the McCann movements?
Of course it's not possible to trace everyone who observed the mccanns...
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Of course it's not possible to trace everyone who observed the mccanns...
I mean observing the McCanns exiting for tapas at circa 8.30pm and the 30 mins checks thereafter all via the patio doors which can't be locked from outside so by definition unlocked? Only a finite number of people could observe this night after night. What difficulties do you foresee in identifying those individuals?
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I mean observing the McCanns exiting for tapas at circa 8.30pm and the 30 mins checks thereafter all via the patio doors which can't be locked from outside so by definition unlocked? Only a finite number of people could observe this night after night. What difficulties do you foresee in identifying those individuals?
How many nights did they observe... Where did they observe from... Smithman is still unidentified...which shows it's not as easy as you think
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Everything you are posting is pure speculation...when there's a vacuum you can put anything in...
You don't seem to have much faith in the police and think the armchair detectives here can do better... I think that's a totally ridiculous idea
Says the person who believes suspects and witnesses should be free to choose who records their statements and free to choose which body investigates a suspected crime!!
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Says the person who believes suspects and witnesses should be free to choose who records their statements and free to choose which body investigates a suspected crime!!
You've misunderstood
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You've misunderstood
One thing I've learnt is that the person who tells the story needs to make it clear from the start. I should take a break too.
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How many nights did they observe... Where did they observe from... Smithman is still unidentified...which shows it's not as easy as you think
Sun - Thu max.
Vantage points which lend to 5A and tapas
What has 'Smithman' got to do with anything?
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in similar circumstances?
MW offered a listening service at some sites but this was through locked doors. Parents do leave children in hotel rooms but again in locked rooms with or without some sort of monitor/listening service.
Does anyone know of children left as the McCann children were left. Imo this case revolves around the unusualness of the combination:
- No adult supervision
- No listening service
- No baby monitor
- Unlocked patio doors
- Parents leaving at same time every night for same destination and re-entering and exiting the patio doors (which can't be locked from outside) at sort of regular intervals several times a night.
And lets not forget children of T7 were all in locked rooms.
Was KM trying to have it all? A working mum (GP) of 3 under 4 yoa who by the time of arriving at PDL was exhausted and lost her head?
I don't wish to sound judgmental and/or sanctimonious but the above are the facts and imo it has been unhelpful to downplay the precarious situation MM and the twins were left in. Do people not see the facts or are they pussy-footing around the McCanns to assuage their inevitable guilt and regret?
You're convinced that the patio doors were left unlocked, it seems. What has convinced you that a) they were and b) they were unlocked every evening?
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What has 'Smithman' got to do with anything?
He remains the only credible sighting of a potential kidnapper seen in the act.... Funny that Mitchell didn't want to go chasing after him, given that fact.
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He remains the only credible sighting of a potential kidnapper seen in the act.... Funny that Mitchell didn't want to go chasing after him, given that fact.
On what basis? How do we know he's anything but a red herring as Dr Totman proved to be?
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On what basis? How do we know he's anything but a red herring as Dr Totman proved to be?
Credible... as it's reasonable to believe that the members of the Smith family saw a man carrying a still child.
Potential kidnapper... Isn't that obvious why??
Red Herring? That's possible - but why didn't Mitchell want to publicise the credible sighting of a possible kidnapper? He was more than happy to do it with countless other possible suspects, IMO.
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As the dear, departed Jeremy Beadle used to say, 'Colin, look over in that bush there, it's our camera. This isn't your Mini Metro we just crushed with a wrecking ball.....ahahahaha....Colin....Colin?'.
Percentage? 0.04%
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As the dear, departed Jeremy Beadle used to say, 'Colin, look over in that bush there, it's our camera. This isn't your Mini Metro we just crushed with a wrecking ball.....ahahahaha....Colin....Colin?'.
Percentage? 0.04%
Should I delete this? How relevant is it?
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Credible... as it's reasonable to believe that the members of the Smith family saw a man carrying a still child.
Potential kidnapper... Isn't that obvious why??
Red Herring? That's possible - but why didn't Mitchell want to publicise the credible sighting of a possible kidnapper? He was more than happy to do it with countless other possible suspects, IMO.
The night creche supported all MW apartments which were scattered all over PDL therefore it is to be expected that fathers would be seen walking around with children in arms.
I take no notice of anything Clarence Mitchell said or didn't say. Was he there when MM disappeared? Has he researched the case? Does he have experience of police investigations?
He comes over as pompous and bumbling imo.
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You're convinced that the patio doors were left unlocked, it seems. What has convinced you that a) they were and b) they were unlocked every evening?
Why would the McCanns say they left them unlocked if they didn't?
The McCanns said they exited for tapas via patio doors and carried out the checks via the patio doors so as to
reduce the noise and not wake the children. If they used the front door it was nearer the children's bedroom.
T7 agreed with the above.
And more importantly independent witness Mrs Fenn said on the night she heard the crying it stopped when
she heard the parents return via the patio doors
I look at what is plausible and more likely imo. Imo the above is more likely and plausible.
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Why would the McCanns say they left them unlocked if they didn't?
The McCanns said they exited for tapas via patio doors and carried out the checks via the patio doors so as to
reduce the noise and not wake the children. If they used the front door it was nearer the children's bedroom.
T7 agreed with the above.
And more importantly independent witness Mrs Fenn said on the night she heard the crying it stopped when
she heard the parents return via the patio doors
I look at what is plausible and more likely imo. Imo the above is more likely and plausible.
I don't think that is quite what she actually said. She heard the door, but didn't see who entered.
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I don't think that is quite what she actually said. She heard the door, but didn't see who entered.
No definitely mentions the patio door in my version of the McCann files.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
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No definitely mentions the patio door in my version of the McCann files.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
*&(+(+ Robittybob1 you saved me a job.
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IMO Mrs Fenn is by far the most important witness.
Imagine how strange it must have sounded to her hearing the patio doors opening and closing several times a night.
Mrs Fenn was the only full-time resident. She could not help but note how unusual and peculiar the above was and how it was in all probability completely out of keeping with other holiday makers.
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Richard Bilton.
He has followed the case from early days. Make up your own mind about him.
I listened to it last night but it cut out at the last 3 - 4 mins. I will endeavour to capture it later.
It was worth listening to but I didn't really learn anything new.
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I listened to it last night but it cut out at the last 3 - 4 mins. I will endeavour to capture it later.
It was worth listening to but I didn't really learn anything new.
Could you share the link you are watching please?
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No definitely mentions the patio door in my version of the McCann files.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
Which is essentially what I said - she heard the door but did not see who entered.
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Which is essentially what I said - she heard the door but did not see who entered.
She must have some reason for calling them "parents". Maybe she heard them talking.
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Which is essentially what I said - she heard the door but did not see who entered.
I think she could safely assume it was the parents? According to Mrs Fenn MM was crying for 1.25 hours and calling 'Daddy, Daddy' which ceased when she heard the patio doors open at circa 11.45pm. If it wasn't the parents who do you think it might have been?
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Could you share the link you are watching please?
Sure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIR-Ku890ss&t=1240s
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I listened to it last night but it cut out at the last 3 - 4 mins. I will endeavour to capture it later.
It was worth listening to but I didn't really learn anything new.
We here had an extended discussion about whether Mr Bilton was acting properly when conducting what appeared to be fairly aggressive interviews.
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We here had an extended discussion about whether Mr Bilton was acting properly when conducting what appeared to be fairly aggressive interviews.
All in a day's work I guess for an investigative journalist. But now you've mentioned it he did seem to go in pretty hard on those who may well have been Portuguese working class or even underclass which wasn't the case with Robert Murat. By this I mean he seemed to treat RM with greater respect.
In any event I think he was barking up the wrong tree with all those he interviewed.
If you want aggressive interviews or attempting to track down suspects/witnesses in an aggressive manner for interviews look no further than the Panorama docu on the suspected Omagh bombers.
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IMO Mrs Fenn is by far the most important witness.
Imagine how strange it must have sounded to her hearing the patio doors opening and closing several times a night.
Mrs Fenn was the only full-time resident. She could not help but note how unusual and peculiar the above was and how it was in all probability completely out of keeping with other holiday makers.
Plus Mrs Fenn was on high alert having sustained an attempted burglary a week or so prior to the McCanns arrival.
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Sure:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIR-Ku890ss&t=1240s
There were earlier Panorama documentaries as well.
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Plus Mrs Fenn was on high alert having sustained an attempted burglary a week or so prior to the McCanns arrival.
there were several burglaries it seems...what was the mode of entry...any raised shutters...we just dont have the information
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there were several burglaries it seems...what was the mode of entry...any raised shutters...we just dont have the information
Didn't the burglar leave via the window?