Jeremy and a shot gun:

[Holly Goodhead]

Three videos for your perusal - the first two about the assembly of a Parker-Hale moderator, the last one about Eley .22 subsonic ammunition with a short close-up showing the bullet size.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdaUzpkc2io&list=UU36xCznYtlnnI6lXowfpkUA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGrGCnStmrk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF4nvNWxqPo

  Myster

Looks like a straightforward piece of kit to fiddle about with!

To my ear the difference in sound with and without silencer is minimal. 

The bullets are much smaller than I imagined.  The victims' entry wounds are in some instances significantly larger than the bullet.  In the video the bullet marks on the paper appear comparable with the bullet size.  I guess many factors affect the victims' entry wounds eg location?  It is all beyond me.

[Myster]

Myster

Looks like a straightforward piece of kit to fiddle about with!

To my ear the difference in sound with and without silencer is minimal. 

The bullets are much smaller than I imagined.  The victims' entry wounds are in some instances significantly larger than the bullet.  In the video the bullet marks on the paper appear comparable with the bullet size.  I guess many factors affect the victims' entry wounds eg location?  It is all beyond me.

I don't believe DB fiddled about with or planted anything in it though... wasn't it reported that he took one look at the hair, blood and red paint engrained in the knurled end and tubed the moderator immediately.

Yes, they're quite small but capable of doing great damage, especially bouncing around inside the skull. .22 Hollow points expand when they penetrate flesh in the same way that larger calibre bullets, like Black Talons did in the Oscar Pistorius case.

Only about 25mm. long by 5mm. diameter (similar in dia to .22 air gun pellets/slugs if you've ever seen them)...

[Caroline]

I don't believe DB fiddled about with or planted anything in it though... wasn't it reported that he took one look at the hair, blood and red paint engrained in the knurled end and tubed the moderator immediately.

Yes, they're quite small but capable of doing great damage, especially bouncing around inside the skull. .22 Hollow points expand when they penetrate flesh in the same way that larger calibre bullets, like Black Talons did in the Oscar Pistorius case.

Only about 25mm. long by 5mm. diameter (similar in dia to .22 air gun pellets/slugs if you've ever seen them)...

No Myster - I haven't read that anywhere. There are conflicting accounts of the silencer find. However, DB only mentioned AE being present, RB stated that he was there and 'told' DB to bag it. AE stated that nothing was discovered on the silencer until they were back at her farmhouse. It was only then that they discovered the 'blob of blood resembling jam' and the paint. The hair only materialised when SJ came to pick it up on the 12th August. This is also when it was 'tubed'.

[Myster]

No Myster - I haven't read that anywhere. There are conflicting accounts of the silencer find. However, DB only mentioned AE being present, RB stated that he was there and 'told' DB to bag it. AE stated that nothing was discovered on the silencer until they were back at her farmhouse. It was only then that they discovered the 'blob of blood resembling jam' and the paint. The hair only materialised when SJ came to pick it up on the 12th August. This is also when it was 'tubed'.

You're right about bagging it at WHF.  According to Wilkes (p.68) Basil Cock was also there (with RB, DB and AE) on Sat. 10th in order to remove the family valuables. He phoned secretary Barbara Wilson to come over, and according to her in the latest Channel 5 documentary she was shown the moderator (with blood on it, if I remember).  So maybe DB had spotted these artifacts before it was transported back to the Eaton's farm, as you said in a plastic bag. BW seemed adamant that she'd seen the moderator, whether it was at WHF or sometime before Stan Jones collected it from AE on the following Monday.

[Caroline]

You're right about bagging it at WHF.  According to Wilkes (p.68) Basil Cock was also there (with RB, DB and AE) on Sat. 10th in order to remove the family valuables. He phoned secretary Barbara Wilson to come over, and according to her in the latest Channel 5 documentary she was shown the moderator (with blood on it, if I remember).  So maybe DB had spotted these artifacts before it was transported back to the Eaton's farm, as you said in a plastic bag. BW seemed adamant that she'd seen the moderator, whether it was at WHF or sometime before Stan Jones collected it from AE on the following Monday.

Hmmmm, yes, she did say that but I find it remarkable that she would only be mentioning it 29 years later for the 'first' time.  &%+((£

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't believe DB fiddled about with or planted anything in it though... wasn't it reported that he took one look at the hair, blood and red paint engrained in the knurled end and tubed the moderator immediately.

Yes, they're quite small but capable of doing great damage, especially bouncing around inside the skull. .22 Hollow points expand when they penetrate flesh in the same way that larger calibre bullets, like Black Talons did in the Oscar Pistorius case.

Only about 25mm. long by 5mm. diameter (similar in dia to .22 air gun pellets/slugs if you've ever seen them)...

I didn't say DB fiddled about with or planted anything in it.  I just said "Looks like a straightforward piece of kit to fiddle about with!"  This was really in ref to Scipio's claim that it would be impossible for blood to find its way into the silencer by any means other than blow back.  The video clip illustrates it is easy to dissemble and reassemble and the baffles can be refitted in any order. 

As we all know the relatives found the silencer.  I have read numerous accounts as to who was present when it was found, what was seen and what happened to it next.  I feel pretty confident that its integrity was impaired by its handling prior to FSS and I doubt it would the see the inside of a court of law based on today's standards.

On a cold, wet, windy Sunday when I have nothing better to do maybe I will go through all the contradictory WS's etc and bring them altogether.  I will have to go on the rampage over on Blue before I do that.  Meanwhile some food for thought.  AE in her WS claims PE and DB 'examined' it around the kitchen table at Oak Farm.  Why?  It was not their job to 'examine' an exhibit which subsequently played a pivotal role in convicting a man serving a whole life sentence. 

 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3564

DB was evidently holding it as AE claims she went to take it off him and he told her sharply not to touch it.  Therefore he was aware that its integrity need preserving so why was he himself holding it and examining it?

CoA (Lol I think I cld recite the whole doc word for word.  I'm very sad  )

74. The silencer was taken to Ann Eaton's address for safekeeping and that evening members of the family examined it. They noticed that the "gun blue" of the surface had been damaged and there appeared to be red paint and blood upon it. The moderator was packaged up and the police were informed of the discovery. When collected by DS Jones on 12 August he noticed a grey hair, about an inch long attached to it. By the time the moderator had been delivered to the Forensic Science Service at Huntingdon the hair had been lost.

I thought RWB scraped at the silencer with a razor blade to remove blood?  He was cross-examined about this at trial when Geoffrey Rivlin QC asked him if he had dripped blood in the silencer or words to this effect? 

[Caroline]

I didn't say DB fiddled about with or planted anything in it.  I just said "Looks like a straightforward piece of kit to fiddle about with!"  This was really in ref to Scipio's claim that it would be impossible for blood to find its way into the silencer by any means other than blow back.  The video clip illustrates it is easy to dissemble and reassemble and the baffles can be refitted in any order. 

As we all know the relatives found the silencer.  I have read numerous accounts as to who was present when it was found, what was seen and what happened to it next.  I feel pretty confident that its integrity was impaired by its handling prior to FSS and I doubt it would the see the inside of a court of law based on today's standards.

On a cold, wet, windy Sunday when I have nothing better to do maybe I will go through all the contradictory WS's etc and bring them altogether.  I will have to go on the rampage over on Blue before I do that.  Meanwhile some food for thought.  AE in her WS claims PE and DB 'examined' it around the kitchen table at Oak Farm.  Why?  It was not their job to 'examine' an exhibit which subsequently played a pivotal role in convicting a man serving a whole life sentence. 

 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3564

DB was evidently holding it as AE claims she went to take it off him and he told her sharply not to touch it.  Therefore he was aware that its integrity need preserving so why was he himself holding it and examining it?

CoA (Lol I think I cld recite the whole doc word for word.  I'm very sad  )

74. The silencer was taken to Ann Eaton's address for safekeeping and that evening members of the family examined it. They noticed that the "gun blue" of the surface had been damaged and there appeared to be red paint and blood upon it. The moderator was packaged up and the police were informed of the discovery. When collected by DS Jones on 12 August he noticed a grey hair, about an inch long attached to it. By the time the moderator had been delivered to the Forensic Science Service at Huntingdon the hair had been lost.

I thought RWB scraped at the silencer with a razor blade to remove blood?  He was cross-examined about this at trial when Geoffrey Rivlin QC asked him if he had dripped blood in the silencer or words to this effect?

DB said the blood on the outside of the silencer 'looked like is could be scraped off with a razor blade'.

[Holly Goodhead]

DB said the blood on the outside of the silencer 'looked like is could be scraped off with a razor blade'.

Nelly seemed to imply it was actually scraped at:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4121.msg171124.html#msg171124

NB Nelly it doesn't appear the clothing was actually removed:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3905.msg146309#msg146309

[Myster]

Hmmmm, yes, she did say that but I find it remarkable that she would only be mentioning it 29 years later for the 'first' time.  &%+((£

Mrs.Wilson seems to be a quiet, humble and reticent person... perhaps the truth needed to be gently coaxed out of her.  Maybe it's been bottled up inside for all these years (moderator, rats in her car, circling bike) and she's become exasperated at JB's incessant attempts to deny that he did it, so she wanted to set the record straight by appearing on the program.

[Myster]

DB said the blood on the outside of the silencer 'looked like is could be scraped off with a razor blade'.

Nelly seemed to imply it was actually scraped at:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4121.msg171124.html#msg17112

Bridget put the stiletto in.     Pity she's not back over there together with vidvic and Hartley.
They've moved on as we all need to do sometime, otherwise this section's going to drag on for years without a confession.

[Holly Goodhead]

Bridget put the stiletto in.     Pity she's not back over there together with vidvic and Hartley.
They've moved on as we all need to do sometime, otherwise this section's going to drag on for years without a confession.

No Bridget didn't really get to put the stilleto in.  It was quite an interesting debate if you read on and kinda concluded with Nelly gracious in victory and Bridget humble in defeat:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4121.msg171159.html#msg171159

I don't know why I'm defending Nelly after he was so beastly to me 

[Holly Goodhead]

Bridget put the stiletto in.     Pity she's not back over there together with vidvic and Hartley.
They've moved on as we all need to do sometime, otherwise this section's going to drag on for years without a confession.

Oh I forgot...yes it is pity Bridget, Hartley and Vidvic no longer post on Blue.  Think it's about time I moved on too.  Don't think there will be a confession but there might be a quashed conviction 

[Caroline]

Mrs.Wilson seems to be a quiet, humble and reticent person... perhaps the truth needed to be gently coaxed out of her.  Maybe it's been bottled up inside for all these years (moderator, rats in her car, circling bike) and she's become exasperated at JB's incessant attempts to deny that he did it, so she wanted to set the record straight by appearing on the program.

Well, initially she said  she thought the world of Jeremy and hadn't heard any serious squabbles between him or his parents (or words to that effect), she then went on to say that Nevill had a premonition of his death, but didn't mention who his assassin would be. This has recently changed to the premonition being about Jeremy shooting him. The relatives also really wanted to get Jeremy so the more people who saw the silencer (complete with blood etc.), the better. I can understand 'being hesitant' but waiting 30 years to mention such an important aspect  is odd and no one else mentioned her being present.

The silencer is the one aspect that just doesn't ring true, mainly because everyone tells a different story about how it was discovered and it seemed to turn into an evidence magnet - paint, blood, hair - it's all a bit convenient to me.

[Myster]

Well, initially she said  she thought the world of Jeremy and hadn't heard any serious squabbles between him or his parents (or words to that effect), she then went on to say that Nevill had a premonition of his death, but didn't mention who his assassin would be. This has recently changed to the premonition being about Jeremy shooting him. The relatives also really wanted to get Jeremy so the more people who saw the silencer (complete with blood etc.), the better. I can understand 'being hesitant' but waiting 30 years to mention such an important aspect  is odd and no one else mentioned her being present.

The silencer is the one aspect that just doesn't ring true, mainly because everyone tells a different story about how it was discovered and it seemed to turn into an evidence magnet - paint, blood, hair - it's all a bit convenient to me.

Mrs.Wilson as farm secretary and Nevill's right-hand woman must have been present if Basil Cock phoned her to come over, probably to help find and note down the valuables, etc. that he wanted to remove for safekeeping. Jeremy had no intention of going near WHF (so soon), and I guess BW knew where things were stored, such as the safe key if it was needed (in or around a ceiling light I believe). Maybe no-one investigating asked her about seeing the moderator and her reticence stopped her volunteering that she had.  I think Stan Jones blew a gasket on learning that she'd done a runner the weekend before appearing as a witness, perhaps another sign of not wanting to reveal what she truly felt. What she did say about the premonition turned out to be hearsay anyway, and on the advice of lawyers not admissible.

But there aren't different stories about how it was discovered - David Boutflour was rooting at the back of the gun cupboard and found a dartboard, a bent poker, full boxes of ammo, new telescopic sights, and the used moderator. Though the accepted view is that scratches, blood and paint on it were only noticed at Ann's farm, I can envisage DB making a mental note on first seeing them at WHF and showing the moderator to BW and others present before it was bagged and put in the car boot.

Do you believe that there were two moderators, Caroline... a Boutflour and a Jones?

[Caroline]

Mrs.Wilson as farm secretary and Nevill's right-hand woman must have been present if Basil Cock phoned her to come over, probably to help find and note down the valuables, etc. that he wanted to remove for safekeeping. Jeremy had no intention of going near WHF (so soon), and I guess BW knew where things were stored, such as the safe key if it was needed (in or around a ceiling light I believe). Maybe no-one investigating asked her about seeing the moderator and her reticence stopped her volunteering that she had.  I think Stan Jones blew a gasket on learning that she'd done a runner the weekend before appearing as a witness, perhaps another sign of not wanting to reveal what she truly felt. What she did say about the premonition turned out to be hearsay anyway, and on the advice of lawyers not admissible.

But there aren't different stories about how it was discovered - David Boutflour was rooting at the back of the gun cupboard and found a dartboard, a bent poker, full boxes of ammo, new telescopic sights, and the used moderator. Though the accepted view is that scratches, blood and paint on it were only noticed at Ann's farm, I can envisage DB making a mental note on first seeing them at WHF and showing the moderator to BW and others present before it was bagged and put in the car boot.

Do you believe that there were two moderators, Caroline... a Boutflour and a Jones?

I'm not saying she wasn't present, but according to other statements (ie. all of them), she wasn't in the room when the silencer was found and the 'blood' wasn't seen until later back at Oak farm and BW wasn't there.

No, I don't believe there were 2 silencers - one was enough :).