Child abduction in Portugal and beyond - is it really so prevalent?

[AnneGuedes]

So... in a thread entitled "Child abduction in Portugal - is it really so prevalent?", you object to me posting about (presumed) parental abductions?

This is abusive. There was no presumed fatherly abduction in the case of Madeleine though her father was the last person who saw her.

This child and her father left together the mother's place (the father doesn't deny it). Hours later that father popped up at the police station WITHOUT the child. Therefore nobody knows the whereabouts of that child.
It's like Madeleine. Her father was with her at 21:10. Then at 22h the mother said she wasn't where her father had seen her last time.


 -- personal comment removed --

[CPN]

Re: parental child abduction:

5th February: "We are pleased to say that there is a positive ending to January as we received reports of 51 children returning home.
 Children have returned to England & Wales from;
 Egypt, France, India, Italy, Jordan Mauritius, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Nigeria Pakistan Poland Portugal Somalia, Spain, Sudan, Thailand, Tunisia, Uganda and USA.
 Children have returned from England and Wales to;
 Colombia, Italy, Lithuania, Pakistan, Poland, Romania and Uganda.
 There have also been returns from;
 France to USA, India to Ireland, Scotland to Ireland, Taiwan to USA and Turkey to Finland.
 Here’s hoping that February is just as positive!"

18th February - "Good news; so far in February we have had reports of 13 children being returned home.
 Children have been returned to England & Wales from; India, Ireland, Italy, Macedonia, New Zealand, Nigeria and Zimbabwe.
 There have also been returns from England and Wales to Holland and from Norway to USA.
 Here's hoping for many more."
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Reunite-International-Child-Abduction-Centre/135212229868115?fref=ts  And those are just parental abductions known to Reunite

Did anyone hear of ANY of those children being abducted from the UK?  NO - because they were parental abductions.  They are  NOT the same and cannot be compared.  But, if we do compare - what a dreadful country the UK must be for child abductions!

[CPN]

Incidentally, the question put to Gerry McCann as to whether or not he was the biological father of Madeleine (following IVF I believe) was NOT an insult to Gerry, it was a perfectly valid investigative question in order to eliminate one possibility.

[AnneGuedes]

Re: parental child abduction:

5th February: "We are pleased to say that there is a positive ending to January as we received reports of 51 children returning home.
 Children have returned to England & Wales from;
 Egypt, France, India, Italy, Jordan Mauritius, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Nigeria Pakistan Poland Portugal Somalia, Spain, Sudan, Thailand, Tunisia, Uganda and USA.
 Children have returned from England and Wales to;
 Colombia, Italy, Lithuania, Pakistan, Poland, Romania and Uganda.
 There have also been returns from;
 France to USA, India to Ireland, Scotland to Ireland, Taiwan to USA and Turkey to Finland.
 Here’s hoping that February is just as positive!"

18th February - "Good news; so far in February we have had reports of 13 children being returned home.
 Children have been returned to England & Wales from; India, Ireland, Italy, Macedonia, New Zealand, Nigeria and Zimbabwe.
 There have also been returns from England and Wales to Holland and from Norway to USA.
 Here's hoping for many more."
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Reunite-International-Child-Abduction-Centre/135212229868115?fref=ts  And those are just parental abductions known to Reunite

Did anyone hear of ANY of those children being abducted from the UK?  NO - because they were parental abductions.  They are  NOT the same and cannot be compared.  But, if we do compare - what a dreadful country the UK must be for child abductions!

Thank you for those informations, CPN !
These parental abductions are specific and extremely delicate situations and even if the interests of the child are what first matters, they are sometimes difficult to elucidate, as these children most often are manipulated.

[AnneGuedes]

I wonder how the McCanns would react hearing Madeleine is a kind of shield that explains why no child is missing in Portugal ! Saint Madeleine somehow.

[sadie]

This child and her father left together the mother's place (the father doesn't deny it). Hours later that father popped up at the police station WITHOUT the child. Therefore nobody knows the whereabouts of that child.
It's like Madeleine. Her father was with her at 21:10. Then at 22h the mother said she wasn't where her father had seen her last time.


 -- personal comment removed --

That was in Madeira, many years ago.

The Mother and Father fell out and the father left with the child.  Allegedly he came back without the child and said that he had sold her.   Seems no investigations took place.  None that I have found anyway, but am willing to be corrected on that

Also allegedly there is/ was a thriving child market at Camara de Lobos, just west of Funchal in Madeira.   Seems it had a beautiful marina and was a resort frequented by the Elite.  These children seem to have been mainly moved around by yacht / any sea going boats.

Winston Churchill used to holiday there regularly, but I doubt he was involved in any way !  Just an illustration of how elite the place was.

[Carana]

 AnneGuedes

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Re: Child abduction in Portugal - is it really so prevalent?
« Reply #196 on: Today at 12:21:28 PM »

    Quote

Quote from: Carana on Today at 12:04:32 PM

    So... in a thread entitled "Child abduction in Portugal - is it really so prevalent?", you object to me posting about (presumed) parental abductions?

    This is abusive. There was no presumed fatherly abduction in the case of Madeleine though her father was the last person who saw her. *

*I did not say this. Something has got mixed up with quotation marks.

ETA: To clarify, this was your response:
This child and her father left together the mother's place (the father doesn't deny it). Hours later that father popped up at the police station WITHOUT the child. Therefore nobody knows the whereabouts of that child.
It's like Madeleine. Her father was with her at 21:10. Then at 22h the mother said she wasn't where her father had seen her last time.


 -- personal comment removed --
« Last Edit: Today at 12:58:00 PM by Sherlock Holmes »


Anyway... I'm still not clear what your point is, Anne. Which child / parent are you referring to in your comment?

I was referring to the discrepancy between what appears on the PJ site (and which seems to be the basis for your analysis of only 3 missing children in 10 years) and the recent DN article that I had posted above, indicating that there are 54 unresolved cases of missing children in Portugal, of which 35% (19 cases) are parental abductions.


“Os raptos parentais são a principal causa de desaparecimento de bebés e crianças mais novas”, afirmou ao DN a presidente da APCD, Patrícia Cipriano. Segundo os dados da associação, 54 casos de crianças desaparecidas estão por resolver em Portugal, 35% dos quais (19 casos) são raptos parentais.

[John]

Pre pubescent children (under 15 y.o.) in mainland Portugal disappeared / possibly stranger abducted.

Note
BLUE represents the north mainly in and to the north of Porto
RED represents the south around PdL


The disappearances and possible abductions started seriously in the north of PT, in the area of Porto and north of there, spreading towards Guimares in an easterly direction.

1.  1991 Jorge Sepulveda, aged 14, disappeared from the Masserelos district of Porto.



2.  1994  Claudia Silva e Sousa, aged 7, disappeared from Oleiros, Vila Verde, Braga. Believed to have been taken by two men and forced to get inside a car.


 
3.  1996  Rene Hasee (German boy on holiday), aged 6, disappeared from Amoreiras beach, Aljezur, [Atlantic] Algarve .. (approx 18 miles PdL)



4.  1998  Rui Pedro Mendonca, aged 11 or 12, taken from Lousada, Porto. It is now believed that this child was taken abroad and is in the hands of a paedophile network.



5.  1999  Rui Periera, aged 13 or 14, from Vila Nova de Famalicao, Braga.  Believed seen in Switzerland with two Italian men.



On the internet I read on a forum that the son of an elite had been picked up by the PJ  in the north [and ?charged?]  but released with a warning.  That was whitewashed out after I mentioned it on forum.  A friend, Catkins, also saw another mention in a somewhat similar vein.  She can no longer find her reference either, IIRC.

The abductions ceased in 1999, after the warning,  for 5 years.   Except for in Madeira IIRC, but here I think the father sold his child.

They started up again in the Algarve near PdL. after the 5 Year gap.


6.  2004  Joana Cipriano, aged 7 or 8, disappeared from Figueira, Algarve (7 miles from PdL). Mother and uncle convicted of murder but body has never been found.



7.  Xmas day 2006,  Carolina Santos, aged 3, attempted abduction from near Silves (approx 18 miles from  PdL).  Parents came out of cafe to find Carolina being led away by a man.



8.  May 2007,  Madeleine McCann, aged nearly 4, disappeared from holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, while her parents dined nearby.




I have not included Titania/ Odete Freeman, aged about 3, who was passed around via three parts of the family and had three different names.  No-one knew what had happened to her, including which part of the family she was with when she vanished, according to reports.  Later they said she had died in an accident in Spain .


I am not aware of any newer cases but I haven't been searching for the past 4 or 5 years.


Please note that all the northern disappearances were clustered within an area of no more that about 32 miles across in Porto and to the north  and east of there

All the southern disappearances, including Rene Hasee, were clustered within an area of about 25 miles across with the centre being near PdL

.... and there is approximately 300 miles between the two clusters.


NO other cases in the relevant age group anywhere else in mainland Portugal ... just in the two clusters only and 300 miles apart

The above post has been edited in terms of the forum policy on publishing factual information.  If anyone disagrees with any of the information included please comment below.

[Lyall]

What's the point of this list John? Or Sadie?

Criminals we know move all over the world and particularly easily in the EU. The obsession with what happens only in Portugal is xenophobic whether Sadie recognises it or not.

There's another word that would also describe this unhealthy obsession but I'll refrain from using that one in public.

[Lyall]

Child 7 did not disappear, and it is not an established fact that the man mentioned ever existed.

[John]

The list originally provided by Sadie is an excellent indicator of child disappearances in Portugal.  What isn't know in most of these cases is whether the disappearances were down to accidents or abductions.

That said however, if a child had encountered an accident and fallen in a river or down a well the chances are that their remains would be found at some stage.  What the cases depicted above all have in common is that no body or remains have ever been found.  Additionally, in some cases there are witness accounts of an abduction while in others, reported sightings of the children in another country.

We cannot state with certainty that any of the children were abducted but it certainly looks like it.

[sadie]

Child 7 did not disappear, and it is not an established fact that the man mentioned ever existed.

Child 7, Carolina Santos, WAS abducted.  She was walked off some considerable distance before her parents luckily came out of their cafe and saw her being walked off, hand in hand, with a man who had told her that he had a little girl or children to play with. 

They started after her and called her back.  The man walked around the corner and vanished.


Thank God they came out when they did.

[Wonderfulspam]

Child 7, Carolina Santos, WAS abducted.  She was walked off some considerable distance before her parents luckily came out of their cafe and saw her being walked off, hand in hand, with a man who had told her that he had a little girl or children to play with. 

They started after her and called her back.  The man walked around the corner and vanished.


Thank God they came out when they did.

Total Bullshit.

[Carana]

There seems to be an issue on this thread concerning what constitutes a "missing" child and a presumed / verified abducted one.

Whatever definition is accepted on here, UK statistics on "missing" children cannot be compared to the few children on the PJ site. I'm aware that this discussion was not the topic of the thread, but comparisons were made.

Is there any official PT site offering statistics on missing/abducted/murdered children?

My concern is not about comparing the UK or any other country to PT, but what I perceive to be attempts to deny the fact that Portugal is just like any other country in that - as everywhere else - children do go missing for whatever reason.

[Lyall]

Child 7, Carolina Santos, WAS abducted.  She was walked off some considerable distance before her parents luckily came out of their cafe and saw her being walked off, hand in hand, with a man who had told her that he had a little girl or children to play with. 

They started after her and called her back.  The man walked around the corner and vanished.


Thank God they came out when they did.

Well that's what a parent said, but you don't know if any of it is true or not.