How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?

[Brietta]

You seem to have a rather bad memory Brietta so let me refresh it for you. Redwood and the McCann's own investigators dismissed Tanner's sighting, Redwood claiming the probable carrier had made himself known to OG so whatever else Edgar was correct about  he certainly wasn't right about the importance of Tanner's sighting.

Not a thing wrong with my memory, thank you for your concern.

Jane Tanner is the only person who was on that street on that night who witnessed a child carrier. 

Whether that man carrying a little girl away from the direction of the apartment from which a little girl would be later found to have been abducted was the abductor we cannot know.

Or whether that man carrying a barefoot child was traced by Scotland Yard many years after the event and was even the same individual ... we cannot know.

The fact remains ... Jane Tanner saw him.

Therefore however much you may wish to sweep Jane Tanner's sighting out of the way there is absolutely no doubt ... she saw him.

It doesn't matter a jot where the men were standing they neither saw Jane nor the individual carrying a child at the top of the street. She did.
Making Jane Tanner's witness statement the only one that matters.

[sadie]

If Jez was by the lane/alley he would have said that and not the stairs / gate.

"I met him near the stairs of a ground floor. There was a gate leading up to some stairs. I was pretty certain that he had left the apartment. We spoke for a few minutes. He said you're on walking duty. I said I was staying in and [ censored word ] and cons and what to do with the children." (7 May 2007)

Well he certainly did not say that in this statement. 

25 to 29 Witness statement of Jeremy Wilkins 2008.04.08
05-CARTAS ROGATORIA 5 Pages 25 to 29

[I suggest you use your GE image to help you understand this.]

-snip-   
Eventually, I left one road to the other side of the street to the pool complex, between the McCann apartment and the Tapas Bar. In order to visualise this street, I believe it was the street most used by the news agencies and journalists as all the parked cars indicated during the coverage period. [this is the little car park that I often allude to.  On the eastern side of Rua Francisco G.M, right opposite the Tapas Reception]
When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry. According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him. [Gerry was walking when he saw him] As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar. [ and Gerry was heading back to the tapas]  -snip-


Hardly by the gate and stairs is it Pathfinder? 

- Gerry was was walking towards the tapas when Jez saw him . 
- He (Jez) was leaving the little car parking area opposite the Tapas reception and he crossed the street to talk with Gerry

Where did they meet? 
Think about it Pfinder, would it have been by the stairs and the gate, which Gerry had already left walking .... or would it be half way between where Gerry was and Jez was ... by the alleyway?


Did I hear you admit it would have been at the point half way between them, by the alleyway ?   If so, you are getting there

To

Further more as part of his statement, he drew this plans to the place where they chatted.  It is NOT at the gate, or the steps, but on the ALLEYWAY CORNER.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/9of8-ecf89375_small.gif



Sorry, I dont know how to make it bigger BUT LOOK carefully ROB.  You will see the cross that Jez put on the map he drew.  It is right by the alleyway, same as Jane said.

-snip-

That is on the corner of the alleyway

And Janes very definite evidence of where it was @ 10.00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHY

So as you can see, this statement agrees with his map and with the cutting Edge video recollectiions of Jane Tanner
25 to 29 Witness statement of Jeremy Wilkins 2008.04.08
05-CARTAS ROGATORIA 5 Pages 25 to 29

[sadie]

You could also ask the question as to why Gerry apparently couldn't even recall which side of the road he was on.

John

I dont think that you have ever had to experience the trauma of losing a child.  I hope that you haven't, but I have

I can tell you that your mind never stops working, day  and night.  It does cartwheels and it is just like it is being stirred in a big concrete mixer.   I don't think that anyone who has experienced such, would have any worries about Gerry getting that simple thing wrong.


Maybe he even started to cross but as both met near the middle it made sense for the pram pusher to carry on walking straight rather than manouvre a 180* turn, or back onto the pavement.  We dont know why he got it wrong, but in such circumstances it is a small mistake.

Maybe they did start talking in the middle of the normally very quiet road and a vehicle started to pull out of the little car park opposite the Tapas reception so they backed away onto the western side of the road?


Maybe it was the get-away driver himself?  Cos that is where it makes sense that he parked the get-away vehicle.

... and I think that upon seeing Gerry, and maybe Jane witnessing things up the road, he took fright and drove off in a southerly direction.


But none of us know for sure.  Maybe SY do know now ?

[faithlilly]

Not a thing wrong with my memory, thank you for your concern.

Jane Tanner is the only person who was on that street on that night who witnessed a child carrier. 

Whether that man carrying a little girl away from the direction of the apartment from which a little girl would be later found to have been abducted was the abductor we cannot know.

Or whether that man carrying a barefoot child was traced by Scotland Yard many years after the event and was even the same individual ... we cannot know.

The fact remains ... Jane Tanner saw him.

Therefore however much you may wish to sweep Jane Tanner's sighting out of the way there is absolutely no doubt ... she saw him.

It doesn't matter a jot where the men were standing they neither saw Jane nor the individual carrying a child at the top of the street. She did.
Making Jane Tanner's witness statement the only one that matters.

If you slavishly believe there was an abduction certainly not, however, if you approach the case with an open mind and compare and contrast every piece of evidence especially, crucially, the witness statements.

[John]

John

I dont think that you have ever had to experience the trauma of losing a child.  I hope that you haven't, but I have

I can tell you that your mind never stops working, day  and night.  It does cartwheels and it is just like it is being stirred in a big concrete mixer.   I don't think that anyone who has experienced such, would have any worries about Gerry getting that simple thing wrong.


Maybe he even started to cross but as both met near the middle it made sense for the pram pusher to carry on walking straight rather than manouvre a 180* turn, or back onto the pavement.  We dont know why he got it wrong, but in such circumstances it is a small mistake.

Maybe they did start talking in the middle of the normally very quiet road and a vehicle started to pull out of the little car park opposite the Tapas reception so they backed away onto the western side of the road?


Maybe it was the get-away driver himself?  Cos that is where it makes sense that he parked the get-away vehicle.

... and I think that upon seeing Gerry, and maybe Jane witnessing things up the road, he took fright and drove off in a southerly direction.


But none of us know for sure.  Maybe SY do know now ?

But they didn't meet anywhere near the middle, Gerry was stood on the pavement chatting to Jez according to both Jane and Jez.

None of them mentioned any car or get-away-driver but had there been one lurking in the car park opposite mini reception as you suggest, he would have gone south away from the trio.

[Brietta]

If you slavishly believe there was an abduction certainly not, however, if you approach the case with an open mind and compare and contrast every piece of evidence especially, crucially, the witness statements.

It matters not a jot what I believe and it matters not a jot what you believe.  I wasn't there.  I take it neither were you.

However Jane tanner was there and was witness to events.

Jez and Gerry confirm that they met and had a conversation.  How did Jane Tanner know that?  She witnessed them having that conversation. 

It doesn't matter exactly where on the road the men were standing ... it matters where Jane Tanner was ... it matters what she was able to see from there.

What she saw was a man carrying a child coming from the direction of the apartment block she was approaching to enter and crossing the road in front of her to pass apartment block six.  I think the term is ... eye witness.

No other witness reported a child carrier at the relevant time in the relevant area ... if you know of a similar relevant witness statement for comparison purposes, please do not be reluctant to share.

If the man Jane saw had been carrying a portable television and not a barefoot child and the McCanns had subsequently discovered someone had stolen a portable television from their apartmet two and two would have made four.
The point is ... the McCanns found their child missing and if you can't see the significance of Jane Tanner witnessing a man walking away from their apartment block carrying a child at what might have been the relevant time, that is not my problem.

[pathfinder73]

Well he certainly did not say that in this statement. 

25 to 29 Witness statement of Jeremy Wilkins 2008.04.08
05-CARTAS ROGATORIA 5 Pages 25 to 29

[I suggest you use your GE image to help you understand this.]

-snip-   
Eventually, I left one road to the other side of the street to the pool complex, between the McCann apartment and the Tapas Bar. In order to visualise this street, I believe it was the street most used by the news agencies and journalists as all the parked cars indicated during the coverage period. [this is the little car park that I often allude to.  On the eastern side of Rua Francisco G.M, right opposite the Tapas Reception]
When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry. According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him. [Gerry was walking when he saw him] As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar. [ and Gerry was heading back to the tapas]  -snip-


Hardly by the gate and stairs is it Pathfinder? 

- Gerry was was walking towards the tapas when Jez saw him . 
- He (Jez) was leaving the little car parking area opposite the Tapas reception and he crossed the street to talk with Gerry

Where did they meet? 
Think about it Pfinder, would it have been by the stairs and the gate, which Gerry had already left walking .... or would it be half way between where Gerry was and Jez was ... by the alleyway?


Did I hear you admit it would have been at the point half way between them, by the alleyway ?   If so, you are getting there

To

And Janes very definite evidence of where it was @ 10.00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHY

So as you can see, this statement agrees with his map and with the cutting Edge video recollectiions of Jane Tanner
25 to 29 Witness statement of Jeremy Wilkins 2008.04.08
05-CARTAS ROGATORIA 5 Pages 25 to 29

That is his statement only days after his meeting with Gerry. He mentioned being near to stairs/gate. Nothing about being on the corner of an alleyway or IMO would have said so. Gerry came straight out of the side gate and would wait if Jez had a pram to cross the road not start walking off down it.

Jez had to cross the road to get back to his apartment. Gerry didn't have to cross the road because the tapas bar is on his side. There is a reason why he said he crossed the road.

"I met him near the stairs of a ground floor. There was a gate leading up to some stairs. I was pretty certain that he had left the apartment. We spoke for a few minutes. He said you're on walking duty. I said I was staying in and pro s and cons and what to do with the children." (7 May 2007)

[Robittybob1]

So what does Gerry say? 

After going through the side gate, and while on his way to the secondary reception entrance, less than 10 metres from the gate, he saw JEZ coming up the street on the opposite pavement bring with him a baby carriage with his youngest child. He crossed the road in JEZ's direction who would come up on the right-hand side [when viewed] from the ascending direction, both having chatted for 3 to 4 minutes, about tennis, holidays and children. While he maintained the conversation with JEZ he saw no-one from the group, nor detected any suspicious individual or vehicle. Because he had been specifically asked, he relates that during this period of time he did not see with certainty JANE pass that location, although it is clear that he was speaking when in front of JEZ, his back to the other pathway on which his apartment is situated. He relates also that JEZ never said to him that he had seen any person given that he was in front.

That sounds plausible to me.  He isn't saying he didn't see Jane just not with certainty.

[Alfie]

And I stand by my theory. The issue is not wether anyone looking from either side of the road could see Jez and Gerry but if they did and didn't see Jane the ' I was standing on the other side of the road and didn't see her gov' defence could be brought into play. It was w risky tactic as he knew both Tanner and Jez would have put the talk on the opposite side of the road but I'm sure he thought he could brazen it out as he did with Tanner in 'Madeleine Was Here'.

So you're asking us to consider that the police would view JT and Jes as the more reliable witnesses but actually you don't believe JT was even there at the time.  That makes sense.  Not.  It's a completely lame excuse you've come up with and depends on Gerry believing he was under surveillance by someone watching him and Jes unflinchingly for many minutes.  If any such mystery person came forward and said I never saw Jane, how would that be any different to Jez Wilkins saying he never saw her either, Jez who would be a witness to where they were actually standing? 

[Benice]

But you saw him.

You are missing the point Faith - which is not that I saw him but that my grandson missed him.

Gerry didn't see JT because he had his back to her.    Jez did not see her because he may well have been leaning  down momentarily to attend to his child in the buggy -  or even simply looking down at him just as JT passed. 

I don't have to wonder if it's possible that Jez missed JT - I know it is.

[Lace]

Gerry could have said he did see Jane,  but he told the truth and said he didn't.

[pathfinder73]

So what does Gerry say?  In his first statement it is very brief It certainly doesn't account for the time his check took.  Is the talk of going to the WC diversion?  It does seem rather trivial and unnecessary detail.
 About Jane's sighting Certainly downgrading the view that Jane had.

Second statement:That sounds plausible to me.  He isn't saying he didn't see Jane just not with certainty.

Jane said to Gerry what they thought he was doing being so long away in a reconstruction (not the WC) and he quickly moved across the road, avoiding her question and to disagree with her.

[Alfie]

Jane said to Gerry what they thought he was doing being so long away in a reconstruction (not the WC) and he quickly moved across the road, avoiding her question and to disagree with her.

What question did she ask him then?

[pathfinder73]

She said they thought he was watching the football on tv being so long away.

[Robittybob1]

Jane said to Gerry what they thought he was doing being so long away in a reconstruction (not the WC) and he quickly moved across the road, avoiding her question and to disagree with her.

I've seen that. 

Why on earth do you find it strange?  What relevance does Matt encountering Bridget O'Donnell have to anything?

For some reason Bridget mentions it.  If she didn't mention it we wouldn't have known about it.  It has relevance because it is mentioned by Bridget.  We spend all day worrying about what side of the road Jez and Gerry met on yet there were two meetings between Jez and Matt within hours of Madeleine's disappearance.  Did Matt meet up with Jez before he made it home earlier?  Was there the third encounter that we don't know about yet, the initial one that makes the next two essential? 

Gerry could have said he did see Jane,  but he told the truth and said he didn't.

You are lucky if you can determine what is the truth.  He didn't say he never saw Jane, he just says he wasn't certain.
"He isn't saying he didn't see Jane just not with certainty."  So I take to mean that he saw someone go past but he wasn't certain who it was, it could have been Jane but he isn't certain.  So that is a lot different to not seeing anyone at all.

She said they thought he was watching the football on tv being so long away.

Maybe he was having trouble going on the WC.  He doesn't say and was Jane really aware that Kate reckoned he was taking a long time.  How long after Gerry left the Tapas Restaurant did Jane leave?  Did Gerry go immediately back to the table after talking to Jez?