How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?

[pathfinder73]

Looks like it's about time for all off topic posts to be sent to that big dustbin in the sky ... please note, the thread topic concerns Gerry and Jez and why they failed to see Jane passing in the street.

They can be moved to the Embedded Confessions thread.

[sadie]

Is there a diagram of where Jez said they were?

Yep posted before

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/9of8-ecf89375_small.gif



Sorry it is so small.  I am sure someone knows how to make it bigger.

-  Look carefully tho and you will see the very definite cross on the corner of the alleyway.  -  Exactly in the same position as where Jane very definitely showed it in the Cutting Edge Video


-  And as per Jez’ second much longer Rog statement below:

25 to 29 Witness statement of Jeremy Wilkins 2008.04.08
05-CARTAS ROGATORIA 5 Pages 25 to 29

[I suggest you use your GE image to help you understand this.]

-snip-   
Eventually, I left one road to the other side of the street to the pool complex, between the McCann apartment and the Tapas Bar. In order to visualise this street, I believe it was the street most used by the news agencies and journalists as all the parked cars indicated during the coverage period. [this is the little car park that I often allude to.  On the eastern side of Rua Francisco G.M, right opposite the Tapas Reception]
When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry. According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him. [Gerry was walking when he saw him] As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar. [ and Gerry was heading back to the tapas]  -snip-


- Gerry was was walking towards the tapas when Jez saw him . 
- He (Jez) was leaving the little car parking area opposite the Tapas reception and he crossed the street to talk with Gerry
-  Then Jez' map showing them on the corner of the alleyway.

Hardly by the gate and stairs is it?  But exactly by the alleyway corner where the path widens to well over 2 metres.

Very obviously from Jez' testimony they met half way and that is NOT by the gate, it is on the corner of the alleyway, as in the Cutting Edge video


-  And then Janes very definite evidence of where it was @ 10.00 on the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHY

BTW, this video had blanked out when I looked last night.  Also was blanked out in ?Alfies responce

[Alice Purjorick]

Whether Jane saw Gerry and Jez or Jez and Gerry didn't see Jane and which side of the road they were all on became a bit of an irrelevance in general terms three years since when that nice Mr Redwood of The Yard fragged Tannerman.

So we have Gerry and and Jez having a three minute natter in the street sometime between 2045 and 2115 according to Jez.
Jane sees a geezer carrying a sprog in that time frame who are not AbductorMan and MM according to The Yard because someone else says 'twas he and the Yard checked him out.
Gerry saw MM just before he saw Jez so likely MM remains in the apartment while Jez and Gerry chops.
Sometime 45 to 75 minutes later Kate finds MM misisng from her room.
Last independent siting remains 1730 ish.

The only relevance I can see now is that the precise location would give an indicator to whether Gerry departed through of the front door or back door.
No doubt I will be corrected....

[Robittybob1]

Yep posted before

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/9of8-ecf89375_small.gif



Sorry it is so small.  I am sure someone knows how to make it bigger.

-  Look carefully tho and you will see the very definite cross on the corner of the alleyway.  -  Exactly in the same position as where Jane very definitely showed it in the Cutting Edge Video


-  And as per Jez’ second much longer Rog statement below:

25 to 29 Witness statement of Jeremy Wilkins 2008.04.08
05-CARTAS ROGATORIA 5 Pages 25 to 29

[I suggest you use your GE image to help you understand this.]

-snip-   
Eventually, I left one road to the other side of the street to the pool complex, between the McCann apartment and the Tapas Bar. In order to visualise this street, I believe it was the street most used by the news agencies and journalists as all the parked cars indicated during the coverage period. [this is the little car park that I often allude to.  On the eastern side of Rua Francisco G.M, right opposite the Tapas Reception]
When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry. According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him. [Gerry was walking when he saw him] As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar. [ and Gerry was heading back to the tapas]  -snip-


- Gerry was was walking towards the tapas when Jez saw him . 
- He (Jez) was leaving the little car parking area opposite the Tapas reception and he crossed the street to talk with Gerry
-  Then Jez' map showing them on the corner of the alleyway.

Hardly by the gate and stairs is it?  But exactly by the alleyway corner where the path widens to well over 2 metres.

Very obviously from Jez' testimony they met half way and that is NOT by the gate, it is on the corner of the alleyway, as in the Cutting Edge video


-  And then Janes very definite evidence of where it was @ 10.00 on the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHY

BTW, this video had blanked out when I looked last night.  Also was blanked out in ?Alfies responce

Thanks Sadie.  Thanks for the diagram and explanation.  It has helped.
So is he calling the entrance to the small carpark a street? "[this is the little car park that I often allude to.  On the eastern side of Rua Francisco G.M, right opposite the Tapas Reception]"

If they were standing there there is no way they would recognise someone crossing the top end of Rua Francisco G.M at night.

Q. Relative to the visibility and lighting conditions;
.....
I believe that it would have been possible to see if an individual was near but evidently, the greater the distance, the harder the difficulty in seeing. I would say that when I spoke with Gerry it was possible to recognize someone I knew who was passing on foot at the crossing at the top of the hill or to describe approximately someone unknown from that distance.

Somehow I think he was supposed to say "not possible" rather than "possible".

[G-Unit]

Yep posted before

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/9of8-ecf89375_small.gif



Sorry it is so small.  I am sure someone knows how to make it bigger.

-  Look carefully tho and you will see the very definite cross on the corner of the alleyway.  -  Exactly in the same position as where Jane very definitely showed it in the Cutting Edge Video


-  And as per Jez’ second much longer Rog statement below:

25 to 29 Witness statement of Jeremy Wilkins 2008.04.08
05-CARTAS ROGATORIA 5 Pages 25 to 29

[I suggest you use your GE image to help you understand this.]

-snip-   
Eventually, I left one road to the other side of the street to the pool complex, between the McCann apartment and the Tapas Bar. In order to visualise this street, I believe it was the street most used by the news agencies and journalists as all the parked cars indicated during the coverage period. [this is the little car park that I often allude to.  On the eastern side of Rua Francisco G.M, right opposite the Tapas Reception]
When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry. According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him. [Gerry was walking when he saw him] As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar. [ and Gerry was heading back to the tapas]  -snip-


- Gerry was was walking towards the tapas when Jez saw him . 
- He (Jez) was leaving the little car parking area opposite the Tapas reception and he crossed the street to talk with Gerry
-  Then Jez' map showing them on the corner of the alleyway.

Hardly by the gate and stairs is it?  But exactly by the alleyway corner where the path widens to well over 2 metres.

Very obviously from Jez' testimony they met half way and that is NOT by the gate, it is on the corner of the alleyway, as in the Cutting Edge video


-  And then Janes very definite evidence of where it was @ 10.00 on the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atfDV7imHHY

BTW, this video had blanked out when I looked last night.  Also was blanked out in ?Alfies responce

In his first statement, four days after the event he said;

''As I got the baby to sleep, I was on my way back to the apartment. I came out at the top road.''

Can R Dr F G Martins be described as 'the top road'? The top of what? I would describe R Dr A da Silva as 'the top road', it's at the top of the hill.

[pathfinder73]

He eventually made his way along Rua Dr Francisco toward the direction of Rua Dr Agostinho. At this time he was walking on the right side of the road passing the Tapas bar area to his left. He noticed the bad street lighting and although it was not completely dark there was enough light to see clearly. As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left.

He was adamant that he did not see any one else in the area. When spoken to in reference to Jane Tanner walking by, he again stated that he saw no one. He also stated that he did not see or hear anyone to his right. He was aware of the recent picture in the papers re the person with a child wrapped in a blanket and in a males arms allegedly walking across the junction to his right but again stated that he did not see any one.

The conversation with Gerry lasted for about three minutes during which Gerry was chatty and in his normal self. Jeremy then made his way back to his apartment.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm

[G-Unit]

He eventually made his way along Rua Dr Francisco toward the direction of Rua Dr Agostinho. At this time he was walking on the right side of the road passing the Tapas bar area to his left. He noticed the bad street lighting and although it was not completely dark there was enough light to see clearly. As he approached the corner of the McCanns apartment, he saw Gerry appear from the area of the gate. He crossed the road and engaged in general conversation with Gerry. At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left.

He was adamant that he did not see any one else in the area. When spoken to in reference to Jane Tanner walking by, he again stated that he saw no one. He also stated that he did not see or hear anyone to his right. He was aware of the recent picture in the papers re the person with a child wrapped in a blanket and in a males arms allegedly walking across the junction to his right but again stated that he did not see any one.

The conversation with Gerry lasted for about three minutes during which Gerry was chatty and in his normal self. Jeremy then made his way back to his apartment.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm

It seems Jeremy Wilkin's evidence changed over time. It became more and more detailed. I wonder where the toilets actually were;

4th May
8.30-9pm. He was in the Tapas restaurant and saw Rastaman.

7th May
I left about 8:15 to 8:30 pm. I was pushing the pram around the complex and went to the toilet near the bar. I could not see inside the restaurant. As I got the baby to sleep, I was on my way back to the apartment. I came out at the top road.

Several weeks later;
Jeremy received calls from Gerry in relation to gaining permission from him to use his name in a portfolio of evidence being compiled by an organization employed by the McCanns. They were very persistent and made several attempts to contact him both at work and at home. They had no objection to being included but were concerned as to the method being used.

5th November;
He walked around the main area of the resort and eventually ended up in the Tapas bar where he used the toilet facility.

At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left.

8th April 2008
When I arrived, I headed to the WC near the pool area.

[Robittybob1]

In his first statement, four days after the event he said;

''As I got the baby to sleep, I was on my way back to the apartment. I came out at the top road.''

Can R Dr F G Martins be described as 'the top road'? The top of what? I would describe R Dr A da Silva as 'the top road', it's at the top of the hill.

To squirm his way out by making out the entrance to the carpark being what he meant when he said" I came out at the top road" feels like retrofitting a mistake in his original statement into something concocted yet somewhat plausible, but it makes Jane into an unreliable witness. Yet to me every step she takes is accounted for, even the reasons she is persuaded about the colour of Tannerman girl's pyjamas.

Where does Jane say the men were standing?  It is about time I looked into that.

[Robittybob1]

Whether Jane saw Gerry and Jez or Jez and Gerry didn't see Jane and which side of the road they were all on became a bit of an irrelevance in general terms three years since when that nice Mr Redwood of The Yard fragged Tannerman.

So we have Gerry and and Jez having a three minute natter in the street sometime between 2045 and 2115 according to Jez.
Jane sees a geezer carrying a sprog in that time frame who are not AbductorMan and MM according to The Yard because someone else says 'twas he and the Yard checked him out.
Gerry saw MM just before he saw Jez so likely MM remains in the apartment while Jez and Gerry chops.
Sometime 45 to 75 minutes later Kate finds MM misisng from her room.
Last independent siting remains 1730 ish.

The only relevance I can see now is that the precise location would give an indicator to whether Gerry departed through of the front door or back door.
No doubt I will be corrected....

I'd like to see the night creche records - who this person was that SY say is Tannerman.

[pathfinder73]

It seems Jeremy Wilkin's evidence changed over time. It became more and more detailed. I wonder where the toilets actually were;

4th May
8.30-9pm. He was in the Tapas restaurant and saw Rastaman.

7th May
I left about 8:15 to 8:30 pm. I was pushing the pram around the complex and went to the toilet near the bar. I could not see inside the restaurant. As I got the baby to sleep, I was on my way back to the apartment. I came out at the top road.

Several weeks later;
Jeremy received calls from Gerry in relation to gaining permission from him to use his name in a portfolio of evidence being compiled by an organization employed by the McCanns. They were very persistent and made several attempts to contact him both at work and at home. They had no objection to being included but were concerned as to the method being used.

5th November;
He walked around the main area of the resort and eventually ended up in the Tapas bar where he used the toilet facility.

At this time they were stood with Gerry's back to the building near to the gate and Jeremy facing him. Rua Dr Agostino was about 10-15 meters to his right and the pathway leading to the front of the apartment blocks about 5 meters to his left.

8th April 2008
When I arrived, I headed to the WC near the pool area.

Toilet was before the Tapas restaurant area. I believe Jez saw Michael Sperry there. He had a table booked at 9pm for 2 i.e. his wife.

"I saw a man that was coming from the road and was headed to the reception. I believe that he was with a woman but I cannot be precise of any detail about her. It was a tall Caucasian man, with blonde hair in 'rasta style' tied with a band instead of free flowing."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm

[Robittybob1]

Jane Tanner first statement has plenty of detail and definite times in it. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER.htm

She remembers that at about 21.10 Gerald left the restaurant (3) to go to the apartment to check on the children. Five minutes later, the witness left, to go to her apartment to see whether her daughters were OK. At this moment she saw Gerry talking to an Englishman called Jez whom they had got to know during the holidays. They played tennis with him.

She passed by them knowing that Gerry had already been in the apartment (1) to check his children.

Meanwhile a man appeared ( * ) carrying a child (**), with a hurried walk, it being this detail together with the fact that the child dressed in pyjamas, without being wrapped up in a blanket, that caught her attention. She only managed to see him from the side, with the child in his arms. She noticed the individual's presence exactly when she had just passed by Gerry and Jez who were talking, having seen this person step off the pavement that borders on the apartment block where they were staying and rapidly cross the road.

The entrance to the apartment building (1) is exactly at the place (street) where the individual appeared from.

After checking on her daughters, she returned to the restaurant. On her way back Gerry was no longer talking in the place where she had seen him.

When she arrived at the restaurant Gerry was already there, accompanied by his wife, Kate.

To me Jane is meaning that the guys were somewhere that allowed her, immediately after passing them,  to see the entrance to the apartment carpark.  So they must have been up hill from the gate and she was able to see over the wall there.  Is it low enough to see over it?  So as Jane is walking to the top of Rua Gentil Martins Tannerman is approaching the same corner. At the "T" intersection corner she only gets a side on view, and later a back view as TM hurries across the road Rua Gentil Martins but heading along Rua A da Silva toward Murat's house.  At the top of the road she would have been close to TM (5 meters apart sounds very feasible).

[Robittybob1]

Jayne's second statement also has plenty of detail times and order of events which match everyone else's statement except the Payne's.  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm

She left the apartment and went to the Tapas, for dinner, around 20h30.


When she arrived at the restaurant there were already some adult members of the group, namely the McCanns, without their children. They [the children] were supposedly sleeping.

 
Around 21h00 her husband arrived at the restaurant, Ev, meanwhile, having fallen asleep.


As usual, the Paynes and mother, were late. A few minutes to 21h00 MO left the restaurant and went to the apartment area, saying that he would 'hurry up' the couple that was already late enough. She related that MO, on the way, took the opportunity and looked in on the children's bedrooms. She relates that MO passed the Paynes and DW on the way, but, benefiting from them already being up and on their way [i.e. because he did not have to go all the way up to their apartment], he made a circuit to listen at the homes, detecting nothing abnormal.


They ordered dinner and waited for the starters when, about 21h10, GM left the restaurant having gone to the apartment to see his children. Five or ten minutes later the deponent left, having gone to her apartment to check that all was well with her girls. At that time she observed GM talking to an English citizen called Jez that they had met on these holidays. He played tennis with them. She doesn't know if they saw her giving the assurance that, on her part, she did not start a conversation with either of them.

 
She passed them knowing that GM had already been in the apartment to see the children.


She doesn't recall the position/orientation of either Jez or GM while they spoke to each other on the street, only having the perception that one was on the pavement and the other was in the road next to the other. Jez had a baby carriage, the deponent knowing that he had a small child.


Prompted, she clarified that the reason she left, following GM only 5/10 minutes later, she relates that she did it because she knew that he would only go to his apartment, reiterating that she checked her daughters regularly.

The thing I notice once again is that as far as the group (in this case Jane) is concerned Jez only has a son (a young child).  I have yet to see anyone say they saw him with his daughter, but they definitely go there with two kids but he is only ever seen with one.  The daughter was supposedly in the same group as Madeleine but I could not see where the parents had signed her in or picked her up. (Were some parents allowed to drop kids off secretly?)  Just understanding what Jez' kid's names were is a mission, and I don't think that has been clarified yet.
Here Jane says she delays her visit to 10 minutes after Gerry's visit, and that makes sense for in one documentary she says to the effect, "Kate was wondering why Gerry was taking so long".  That can logically only be after 10 minutes not 5 minutes (5 minutes to check the kids is not a long time).
21:20 Jane heads up Rua Dr. A Gentil Martins she is right to think Gerry has checked his kids, the guys are talking and she walks past them (one on the footpath the other on the road) without talking to either.

[Robittybob1]

In Jane's rogatory statement it is a little harder to pick out the pertinent bits but here is a bit where Kate is suspicious of Gerry's delay:http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
 

But, no, so, you know, I’ll go and check at that point. So, timing wise, I mean, I think it was sort of five past, ten past, ten past nine, around, around that sort of time”.
 
4078    “From what I know from reading statements, Gerry was still absent?”
Reply    “He wasn’t there at that point, no, no.  So, erm, then I walked, so I just walked out the, erm, the Ocean Club bit and walked, sort of walked up the road.  And then Gerry was there, he was talking to Jez WILKINS in the road, well they were sort of, as I went by.  So I think I thought then ‘Oh that’s why Jez’, not Jez, ‘That’s why Gerry has been, you know, that’s why he’s longer than we thought’”
 
4078    “Backtrack a little.  How long after Gerry had gone was it before you went to do your check?”
Reply    “Well I think it must have been, well it must have been at least five minutes, if not more, because, I say, because he was gone, before I actually left there had been the conversations about him being waylaid.  So, I mean, if, I think it must have been sort of five or ten minutes, five or ten minutes after he’d gone.  I can’t say for sure, but”.

I like the way Jane finishes her sentence with the word "but".  Is that like saying "ask yourself".

[Robittybob1]

4078    “Okay.  So when did you first notice Gerry standing there?”
Reply    “I would have probably noticed him as soon as I came, I mean, I don’t, this is not, I don’t think that distance is probably as far as that, you come out and he was, they were sort of, so almost, I’d probably say almost straight away.  Again, I don’t know, but I, I know people are saying I’ve not been on the road, but they were there and I wouldn’t know they were there if I hadn’t walked past, you know, you’ve got to see my frustration in this, and I know Gerry didn’t see me and Jez didn’t see me, but”.
 
4078    “You were there?”
Reply    “They were there and I was there”.
 
4078    “And you say you almost went to acknowledge them but they were so engrossed in conversation?”
Reply    “They were, yeah.  I mean, I don’t know whether you’ve met Gerry, but other people have met Gerry, and when Gerry is talking, it’s bit like I said earlier, that he is very focussed, he is a very focussed person.  And it doesn’t surprise me he didn’t see me, because if he’s talking he’s very focussed on what he’s doing at that stage.  I mean, obviously I don’t  know, I don’t know Jez, I hadn’t actually, I hadn’t had any contact with Jez through the week, I didn’t, you know, he wasn’t somebody we chatted to, so, you know, in terms of him recognising me or knowing me, he didn’t know me, so”.

In her rogatory statement her check starts earlier and the sighting of TM is not immediately afterward, but by then she has had to reassess her recollection to fit in with the others.

[G-Unit]

To squirm his way out by making out the entrance to the carpark being what he meant when he said" I came out at the top road" feels like retrofitting a mistake in his original statement into something concocted yet somewhat plausible, but it makes Jane into an unreliable witness. Yet to me every step she takes is accounted for, even the reasons she is persuaded about the colour of Tannerman girl's pyjamas.

Where does Jane say the men were standing?  It is about time I looked into that.

I think the first statements are likely to be the most reliable while the events are freshest. I think he went to the Tapas bar then had a wander round and emerged on the top road.