How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?

[Robittybob1]

..... snip

JT didn't lie.  Gerry didn't see her because he had his back to her, and Jez didn't see her because he was looking in another direction when she passed.  They didn't hear her because they were listening to one-another talking.

AIMHO

OK if that is the case why isn't Jez willing to admit he just didn't see her, rather than saying it is virtually impossible that she got past him?   

[slartibartfast]

The end result is the same ...

• Jane still saw Gerry and Jez
• neither Gerry or Jez saw Jane
• Jane saw the man crossing the road in front of her
  ... coming from the direction of block 5
  ... carrying a child
• shortly after Jane's sighting, Madeleine McCann was found to be missing from her bed in apartment A of block 5

The important issue is not what Gerry or Jez did or did not see ... it is what Jane saw.

...and still Jane may not have passed them and your list could still stand.

[Robittybob1]

...and still Jane may not have passed them and your list could still stand.

Like as if Jane was ahead of Jez and Gerry, she had gone past the apartment side gate before Gerry had come out? Jane had gone on to the road before Jez had come out of the side street and she glimpsed them still talking on the way back??

Is this how you imagine all that list happening without the interaction between Jane and Jez and Gerry?
Trouble is who returns first to the table.  Wouldn't they arrive back at around the same time then.
Jane's story fits the facts and any variation puts the others out of sequence.

[Benice]

OK if that is the case why isn't Jez willing to admit he just didn't see her, rather than saying it is virtually impossible that she got past him?   

I'm sure had he known that in the future every word he uttered was going to be put under a microscope and scrutinised  by armchair detectives he might have elaborated more.     In the meantime IMO -  he is as amazed that he didn't see JT pass by as I was when my grandson didn't see a jogger passing us by - because he was looking in another direction during those precise few moments it took for the jogger to pass us.     It happens.

[Brietta]

As OG appear to have explained Tannerman away as innocent Crecheman , it would seem to have no importance at all.

   Appearances can be deceptive 

[Robittybob1]

I'm sure had he known that in the future every word he uttered was going to be put under a microscope and scrutinised  by armchair detectives he might have elaborated more.     In the meantime IMO -  he is as amazed that he didn't see JT pass by as I was when my grandson didn't see a jogger passing us by - because he was looking in another direction during those precise few moments it took for the jogger to pass us.     It happens.

I appreciate something quick like that could happen but Jane struggling in her flip flops is harder to imagine that someone could miss that.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm

Erm, yeah, and I’d got cropped trousers on and just flip-flops, so I can remember sort of walking, I couldn’t walk that quickly because I’d got these silly flip-flops on and I couldn’t walk that, that well in them, so to speak.  Erm, and I walked, I was walking up the road and I can’t remember exactly, I know this,  I know, I think Gerry thinks he was somewhere different to where I think they were standing, but I was fairly sure, as I walked up the road, they were standing, one of them was in the road and one of them was just on the edge of the pavement, but I thought it was on the side of the road that I was walking, but I know Gerry thinks they were the other side.  But I thought they were closer by, because as I walked by, I almost did go to sort of acknowledge them and I thought at that point ‘Oh they were cha cha cha’ and I did think, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t know whether they’d seen me or not, but I did actually go to acknowledge them and I think if they’d have been that far away I don’t know whether I would have sort of almost gone to say hello, but.

That to me sounds like they just ignored her for some reason.   You couldn't miss Jane walking in those flip flops getting stones in her shoes etc. 

4078    “So you have left the Tapas Bar and you have gone up that hill.  What is there, is there a pavement and a road there?”
Reply    “Yeah, there’s sort of like a pavement which is sort of almost like made up of, it’s not cobbles, but made up of small stones”.
 
4078    “Not ideal for flip-flop wearers?”
Reply    “No, because I do remember, I was almost looking at my, sort of not looking at my feet, but I was sort of padding, because obviously I was trying to get to do the check and get back as quick as possible as well, so I just thought ‘Oh I’ll just go and do the check as quick as possible’ and I did think, I was not struggling to walk in my flip-flips, but, you know, I wasn’t, I wasn’t striding”.

[sadie]

If there was a car it would seem to have been utterly silent and invisible. Similar to Jane, really.

If there had been a getaway vehicle coming out of the little car park opposite Tapas reception, the noise could have alerted Gerry and Jez, but more likely the headlights swinging round made them aware that they had to move out of the way for it to come up the hill.  Remember vehicles are driven on the right in PT.

The fact that it suddenly stopped as the driver changed his mind, would have further alerted Jez to the situation.  In such a situation Jez would look round to see what was going on.

[Robittybob1]

If there had been a getaway vehicle coming out of the little car park opposite Tapas reception, the noise could have alerted Gerry and Jez, but more likely the headlights swinging round made them aware that they had to move out of the way for it to come up the hill.  Remember vehicles are driven on the right in PT.

The fact that it suddenly stopped as the driver changed his mind, would have further alerted Jez to the situation.  In such a situation Jez would look round to see what was going on.

What they didn't see Jane and the getaway vehicle!

[sadie]

So you are saying you wouldn't notice if some walked within 30 cm of you in a quiet street.

Well Gerrys body is about 50 cm deep.  He was on the kerb.

The pavement there is about 230 cm deep. 

[Check the width carefully on Google Earth.  Zoom in until the pavement is large.  Use the stubby upright blue rule (on the command line at the page top) to measure the width in metres] ... you will find that I am right.   Let's make Jane wider than she really is, say 2ft = 60cm


Therefore the space taken up on the pavement by Gerry and Janes body widths/depths is no more than 50+60cm = 110cm

Deduct their body widths from the pavement width to give the space between them
230-110 = 120

Therefore the potential distance between the back of Gerry and the side of Jane is 1m 20


That, Slarti is four times the distance you claim...and a decent distance from the man, Gerry, whose back she passed


You wont get it wrong again will you ?      There's a darling ... too much work for an old un, like me, to have to keep doing it. 

How come you got it so wrong?

[sadie]

What they didn't see Jane and the getaway vehicle!

Quite possible, both.

The vehicle would just have been a slight inconvenience to them .... nothing more .... nothing to remember about it.   They didn't know that it was the getaway vwehicle!

I have gone over the possible reasons why they didn't see Jane ... but will repeat them if you wish.

Unlike Pfinder and a few others on this forum, I will not claim that I KNOW these things, but they are very feasible



And I cant help noticing that they support my theory of a watcher/ director of abduction / get-away driver on one of the upper balconies of block 6.

[faithlilly]

I'm sure had he known that in the future every word he uttered was going to be put under a microscope and scrutinised  by armchair detectives he might have elaborated more.     In the meantime IMO -  he is as amazed that he didn't see JT pass by as I was when my grandson didn't see a jogger passing us by - because he was looking in another direction during those precise few moments it took for the jogger to pass us.     It happens.

But you saw the jogger.

Rather unlikely that both individuals taking part in a conversation would fail to see a third individual walk within inches of them, don't you think ?

[slartibartfast]

Well Gerrys body is about 50 cm deep.  He was on the kerb.

The pavement there is about 230 cm deep. 

[Check the width carefully on Google Earth.  Zoom in until the pavement is large.  Use the stubby upright blue rule (on the command line at the page top) to measure the width in metres] ... you will find that I am right.   Let's make Jane wider than she really is, say 2ft = 60cm


Therefore the space taken up on the pavement by Gerry and Janes body widths/depths is no more than 50+60cm = 110cm

Deduct their body widths from the pavement width to give the space between them
230-110 = 120

Therefore the potential distance between the back of Gerry and the side of Jane is 1m 20


That, Slarti is four times the distance you claim...and a decent distance from the man, Gerry, whose back she passed


You wont get it wrong again will you ?      There's a darling ... too much work for an old un, like me, to have to keep doing it. 

How come you got it so wrong?

You seem to struggle with this. Over 2m as you originally claimed is just over arms breadth, your assumption that Jane was stuck to the wall and Gerry balanced on the edge is ridiculous. Unless the gap was so narrow that she had the squeeze up to the wall I would expect at least a 20cm gap to the wall. Even using your ever increasing measurements, that would only leave Her an arm's length from Gerry.

Try not to get it wrong again.

[sadie]

You seem to struggle with this. Over 2m as you originally claimed is just over arms breadth, your assumption that Jane was stuck to the wall and Gerry balanced on the edge is ridiculous. Unless the gap was so narrow that she had the squeeze up to the wall I would expect at least a 20cm gap to the wall. Even using your ever increasing measurements, that would only leave Her an arm's length from Gerry.

Try not to get it wrong again.

Bluster wont get you anywhere Slarti.


The carefully measured width of the pavement at that point is 230 centimeters ... approx 30 cm wider than a regular bed is long.   That's a big width.


The fact of the matter is that the combined space taken up by Gerry and Janes bodies is less than 110 cm leaving potential clear space of 1m20.between them.

That is approximately 4 feet GAP BETWEEN them.

Now that it has plainly been set out for you, it is downright dishonest to still try and argue otherwise.


Mods, most especially, should not behave like this.... imo

[Robittybob1]

Weren't they on the other side of the road?  So this debate about how close Jane got is pointless.

[Benice]

But you saw the jogger.

Rather unlikely that both individuals taking part in a conversation would fail to see a third individual walk within inches of them, don't you think ?

Gerry had his back to the path - so it's not difficult to believe that he didn't see JT  -  and if Jez looked away so that she was not in his line of sight for a few seconds, then just as (for the same reason) my grandson missed a jogger passing a few feet in front of  him -  then he could have missed her. 

She didn't speak to them and as I think it's pretty obvious that neither of them were consciously listening out for any sounds other than their own voices -  then it's quite feasible that any minor exterior sounds that were made just did not register.

I'd compare it to what sometimes happens when watching a brilliant drama on TV and just as the crucial part is reached  - someone -  (in my case it was usually my mother in law - who was an expert at it ) decides to start talking to you and you have to look away and listen to them and so you miss that most vital part!  (Grrrrr).     Although the sound of the TV hasn't changed -   you have no idea what was said or done in the programme for that time - because you can't concentrate on the conversation and listen to what's going on on the TV at the same time.

If say a firecracker had gone off in the street where JT passed then obviously neither Gerry and Jez would have missed that  - but I'm not sure that the sound of padding flipflops would necessarily have registered with either of them while all their concentration was on whatever they were talking about to one another.   Voices make noise - and in Gerry's case quite a loud noise.

AIMHO