Author Topic: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?  (Read 119318 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #750 on: December 17, 2016, 09:59:18 AM »
@ G-unit  You talk of the typed timeline what file is this in please?
Quote
The typed timeline says Jane returned to the table at 9.20 and her husband goes to check again at 9.25.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm  is obvioused produce by the PJ.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 10:01:49 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #751 on: December 17, 2016, 10:06:45 AM »
This is a timeline report by SIL
https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/01/24/the-tapas-9-timeline/
Quote
Without more ado, here is the Tapas 9 timeline, as it appears close to the end of Jane Tanner’s rogatory statement. For clarity, it is not Jane Tanner’s personal recollection, rather it is Leicestershire police checking what they considered was the timeline that the Tapas 9 produced subsequent to Madeleine’s disappearance.

8:25 The McCanns arrive at the Tapas restaurant.

8:40 Jane Tanner arrives.

?:?? Shortly after that the Oldfields arrive.

8:45 Russell O’Brien arrives.

8:57 Matthew Oldfield leaves the table and passes the Paynes and Dianne Webster on their way to the Tapas restaurant then carries out a check of the ground floor apartments (5A, 5B and 5D), returning to the Tapas restaurant at 9:00.

9:05 Gerry goes to do a check on 5A.

9:15 Jane Tanner leaves the restaurant to check, and passes Gerry and Jez Wilkins having a conversation, Then she sights Tannerman.

9:20 Jane Tanner completes her check and returns to the Tapas restaurant. Gerry had returned before her.

9:25 Russell O’Brien and Matthew Oldfield go back to the apartments to check, Russell stays in 5D (re sick child), Matthew checks 5A.

9:35 Matthew Oldfield returns to the Tapas restaurant.

9:40 Jane Tanner returns to 5D to take care of the sick child and let Russell have his dinner.

9:45 Russell O’Brien returns to the Tapas restaurant.

9:55 Rachael Oldfield – last time at Tapas restaurant. ??? (As far as I know, Matthew was doing the Oldfield checks, so what this means at this time is beyond me.)

10:00 Kate McCann goes to check. That’s when everything kicks off.

This timeline has:
9:15 Jane Tanner leaves the restaurant to check, and passes Gerry and Jez Wilkins having a conversation, Then she sights Tannerman
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #752 on: December 17, 2016, 10:11:37 AM »
G-unit  or are you talking about these timelines?
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Offline Benice

Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #753 on: December 17, 2016, 10:26:56 AM »
This is a timeline report by SIL
https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/01/24/the-tapas-9-timeline/
This timeline has:
9:15 Jane Tanner leaves the restaurant to check, and passes Gerry and Jez Wilkins having a conversation, Then she sights Tannerman

IMO it's incorrect to quote figures as if they have been proved to be  accurate.   If they were accurate there would be more 'times' like 9.17 or 9.28 etc etc. and they would not be 'rounded up' in the way they have been to the nearest quarter or five minutes.

Normally it wouldn't matter if times were a couple of minutes adrift from the actual times- but in this particular situation it does.

From JT's Rog statement:-

4078    “Backtrack a little.  How long after Gerry had gone was it before you went to do your check?”

Reply    “Well I think it must have been, well it must have been at least five minutes, if not more, because, I say, because he was gone, before I actually left there had been the conversations about him being waylaid.  So, I mean, if, I think it must have been sort of five or ten minutes, five or ten minutes after he’d gone.  I can’t say for sure, but”.

AIMO
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 11:11:36 AM by Benice »
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #754 on: December 17, 2016, 10:38:46 AM »
IMO it's incorrect to quote figures as if they have been proved to be  accurate.   If they were accurate there would be more 'times' like 9.17 or 9.28 etc etc. and they would not be 'rounded up' in the way they have been to the nearest quarter or five minutes.

Normally it wouldn't matter if times were a couple of minutes adrift from the actual times- but in this particular situation it does.

IIRC JT said she left the table 5 or 10 mins after Gerry (from memory)

AIMO
The times SIL uses comes from the statements, so it isn't made up, and there are times quoted in statements to the minute as well e.g. 10:28 when John Hill is notified, 10:42 when the GNR are rung, and  10:17 when Amy's call goes to Lyndsay.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 10:46:24 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Benice

Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #755 on: December 17, 2016, 10:56:17 AM »
The times SIL uses comes from the statements, so it isn't made up, and there are times quoted in statements to the minute as well e.g. 10:28 when John Hill is notified, 10:42 when the GNR are rung, and  10:17 when Amy's call goes to Lyndsay.

The words 'around' and 'about' also come from witness statements.        AFAIK the times you give above are from their phones and so are not reliant on memory recall.

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline G-Unit

Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #756 on: December 17, 2016, 11:05:13 AM »
If you could prove they were both looking in the same direction at the same time, and one sees the individual and the other doesn't then I might question Jane's recollection but at the moment someone saying they didn't see the individual means nothing.

The fact that a witness saw nothing is not, in itself, significant. It only becomes significant if the witness should have seen something and didn't. That depends not on times but on relative movements. Only those there at the time know if the witness would have been in a location where they should have seen something.

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Offline Robittybob1

Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #757 on: December 17, 2016, 11:15:43 AM »
The words 'around' and 'about' also come from witness statements.        AFAIK the times you give above are from their phones and so are not reliant on memory recall.
That could be right or as Gerry says looking at his watch, or the TV.   Yes, something else which allows one to synchronise with.
My main objection was using times which are based on someone elses opinion e.g. Jane seeing individual at 9:20 where does that come from?
from G-unit's post above:
Quote
The typed timeline says Jane returned to the table at 9.20 and her husband goes to check again at 9.25.
The fact that a witness saw nothing is not, in itself, significant. It only becomes significant if the witness should have seen something and didn't. That depends not on times but on relative movements. Only those there at the time know if the witness would have been in a location where they should have seen something.


  You are still relying on the deponent's honesty.  Analysis for embedded confessions maybe good enough to show who is lying and who is telling the truth.   If a person couldn't see Jane 2- 4 meters away how practical is it to expect him to see another individual at 35 -50 meters away?
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #758 on: December 17, 2016, 11:49:31 AM »
From the Ocean Club Reception to the road junction to the north is approx 50 metres [GE & GM]. The average person walks at 1.4 mps. 50/1.4 = 36 seconds that Jane T.  is on the street being missed by Jez and Gerry.
I find it amazing especially as 50 metres is like being in your own back garden.
Being rough about it where they passed they would have been able to smell each others sweat even if they were blind and deaf.

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=walking+speed
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Robittybob1

Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #759 on: December 17, 2016, 05:13:57 PM »
Quote

There is not the slightest indication in Jane's statements that that scenario happened.  How can you justify changing her statement?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 08:38:38 PM by Brietta »
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Alfie

  • Guest
Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #760 on: December 17, 2016, 05:58:53 PM »
Quote

Why did she want or need to avoid Gerry when he was already chatting to someone else with his back to her?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 08:40:48 PM by Brietta »

Offline Robittybob1

Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #761 on: December 17, 2016, 06:06:34 PM »
You can tell there is something wrong for the numbers on the diagram do not match the statement.On the diagram (1) is the entrance to the Ocean Club swimming pool and Tapas Bar and (1) is not the entrance to the car park.
The Car park is noted as (6) and the car park entrance has no apecific number associated with it.  On the schematic of the OC complex (1) are the apartments blocks G4 and G5 in general.

The diagram (Jane's drawing) seems to be an afterthought.
There is no translation of the notes of the legend of the area of concern drawn by Jane Tanner.
I can not find any translation of these lines of the "legenda".  "Legenda" translates to "subtitle".
PS: I have asked a Portuguese speaking person to assist me to get a translation of the subtitles.
In Jane's statement it says: "The entrance to the apartment building (1) is exactly at the place (street) where the individual appeared from."  The street referred to here is Rua Doutor Agostinho da Silva.  (Doutor is translated doctor).

So from that sentence it could just be understood as: "The individual appeared on the street named "Rua Doutor Agostinho Da Silva".  This has in other words got nothing to do with with "the entrance to the apartment building" other than the entrance is also along this road.  Initially one might think, as I did, Jane is saying she knows that the individual came out of the car park entrance, but it doesn't mean that at all.
But Silvia says, rightfully, it is impossible to see this entrance from where Jane was walking.  OK that is correct but it still fits in with what Jane says. The cause of the confusion is entirely due to the poor translation.

Right back to the subtitles on Jane' diagram that have never been translated.
"Vou tentar traduzir o que está escrito. Please wait. Algumas letras estão difíceis de entender."
"I will try to translate what is written. Please wait. Some words are hard to understand."

"1 - entrada do restaurante " o tapas"
2 - caminho que leva para a frente dos apartamentos
3 - conversa com o gerald e o jez
4 - onde se encontrava a pesogute (e sentido) quando observou um individuo com uma criança no colo;
5 - individuo com a criança ao colo a sair do passeio e atravessar o cruzamento;
6 - parque de estacionamento em frente aos apartamentos;
7 - entrada do predio para os apartamentos;
8 - quando a depoente 4 chegou ao ponto 5 o individuo ja se encontrava  neste ponto 8." 

These are the phrases in Portuguese.

no item 4 eu nao entendi uma palavra e escrevi do jeito que esta aqui
"In item 4 I did not understand a word and wrote the way it is here" (word for word???)

Now for the translation:
1 - entrance to the restaurant "the tapas"
2 - path leading to the front of the apartments
3 - talk with gerald and jez
4 - where he found the pesogute (and felt) when he observed an individual with a child in his lap;
5 - individual with the child in the lap to leave the walk and cross the intersection;
6 - car park in front of the apartments;
7 - entrance of the building to the apartments;
8 - when the person 4 arrived at point 5, the individual was already at this point 8.

Translator had trouble with the word pesogute
"The word that I (she) did not understand in the item 4 and: DEPOENTE  (we all know deponent - a person who makes a deposition or affidavit under oath.)

Can we get a alternative spelling to the word that looks like "pesogute" pesoguin  spellcheck gave me this other word "pesoguin" No there is no translation for pesoguin.





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Offline Robittybob1

Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #762 on: December 17, 2016, 06:12:46 PM »
Yes it was "depoente" which is the person making the statement.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #763 on: December 17, 2016, 06:33:15 PM »
The times SIL uses comes from the statements, so it isn't made up, and there are times quoted in statements to the minute as well e.g. 10:28 when John Hill is notified, 10:42 when the GNR are rung, and  10:17 when Amy's call goes to Lyndsay.

The times of the phonecals are exact because they come from the phone records
All other times are approximate

Offline Robittybob1

Re: How could Jez and Gerry not see Jane?
« Reply #764 on: December 17, 2016, 06:42:46 PM »
We have worked out the meaning of line (4)

Does it really say "her lap"? 
"4- where the deponent was (positioned) when she observed an individual with a child in her lap."  (the actual word was "seated" but unless Jane sat down on the footpath that doesn't make sense.

Yes. It could be that the child was attached to someone's arm. There we say .... "on his lap"

No colo é uma expressão que usamos tanto para quem senta ou deita uma criança nas partes dá coxa... Sentado
Ou para quem carrega a criança nos braços.... Segurando a altura de nosso peito.
Translated
"On the lap is an expression that we use both for those who sit or lay a child on the thigh parts ... Sitting
Or for those who carry the child in their arms .... Holding the height of our chest."

What if the person was a woman  Can you tell from the words whether Jane is seeing a man or a woman?

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