Author Topic: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?  (Read 35040 times)

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Offline Luz

Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2013, 01:54:49 PM »
Can you please refer me to the part of Portuguese Law that determines when someone is a suspect and when they are not, and how this supposed status affects their rights and responsibilities?

You keep mixing criminal investigation with legal evaluation of a crime. As you probably understand I will not supply here the regulations by which a criminal investigation is ruled. Come to Portugal and I will be happy to have you enrolled in my classes.

AnneGuedes

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Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2013, 02:04:42 PM »
Police officers may have a working assumption that someone may have committed an act, but if they start to believe in that assumption and fail to consider alternatives (the policeman's fallacy) then they will make mistakes common to all police and investigatory bodies. Any policeman who loses sight of the true legal status of a suspect- that they are presumed innocent- is in breach of their professional duty.
You know perfectly that Mr Amaral wasn't dismissed because of "failing to consider alternatives". Far from this, as the continuation of the investigation proved.
Besides the PJ is under the control of the MP and under the control of the instruction judge concerning human rights. It is the MP's job, not the PJ's, to send to court presumed innocents who could be guilty.

Offline John

Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2013, 02:05:41 PM »
Actually, I find it quite astonishing that for whatever reason, some six years after the event, there has never been an official reconstruction of the events.

I would have thought the tapas 9 would have wanted to assist the inquiry rather than take the cowards way out and refuse to do so.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Luz

Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2013, 02:20:31 PM »
Actually, I find it quite astonishing that for whatever reason, some six years after the event, there has never been an official reconstruction of the events.

I would have thought the tapas 9 would have wanted to assist the inquiry rather than take the cowards way out and refuse to do so.

There were a few reconstructions, the latest by Pedro Rebelo and his team, but no reconstitutions with the original intervenients.

In my opinion the refusal by the Tapas 7 was orchestrated in the get-together in the Rothley Hotel, just prior fro the end of the timeline given by the portuguese authorities, because the McCann couldn't directly refuse to do it, so they used the friends to refuse in their place. The e-mails are laughable - from afar I remember the exigence of 5 star Hotels for them and their children, for instance.

Offline Montclair

Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2013, 04:03:59 PM »
At least criticise what I actually said, rather than what you thought I said.

I did not say that Amaral was dismissed because of "failing to consider alternatives". What I said was that from his book and his other statements it is obvious that he fell into the Policeman's fallacy- thinking he had the culprits bang to rights and therefore he stopped looking for other explanations. He depended on two strands of fornesics which he misunderstood (dogs and DNA) and used this to bolster his own prejudiced conclusions. In the end when all the evidence was considered in details, there was found to be insufficient to prove the ideas he was working on.

When are you ever going to understand that the investigation was led by the Ministério Público and the judges and that Gonçalo Amaral did not make any of the decisions as to what was to be done. He did not make the conclusions of the investigation and which are presented in his book. These conclusions were made by the team, that is the inspectors and the judges of the Ministério Público.

Offline John

Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2013, 04:04:56 PM »
At least criticise what I actually said, rather than what you thought I said.

I did not say that Amaral was dismissed because of "failing to consider alternatives". What I said was that from his book and his other statements it is obvious that he fell into the Policeman's fallacy- thinking he had the culprits bang to rights and therefore he stopped looking for other explanations. He depended on two strands of fornesics which he misunderstood (dogs and DNA) and used this to bolster his own prejudiced conclusions. In the end when all the evidence was considered in details, there was found to be insufficient to prove the ideas he was working on.

Been there and worn the t-shirt as they say.  I have much sympathy with what you write SS.  My own experience of the police is that they can indeed have tunnel vision on occasion.  Chris Jeffries and Barry George being but two individuals who have suffered because of this.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline DCI

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Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2013, 04:24:29 PM »
At least criticise what I actually said, rather than what you thought I said.

I did not say that Amaral was dismissed because of "failing to consider alternatives". What I said was that from his book and his other statements it is obvious that he fell into the Policeman's fallacy- thinking he had the culprits bang to rights and therefore he stopped looking for other explanations. He depended on two strands of fornesics which he misunderstood (dogs and DNA) and used this to bolster his own prejudiced conclusions. In the end when all the evidence was considered in details, there was found to be insufficient to prove the ideas he was working on.

I wonder if thats why the Portuguese public prosecutor, refused the PJ permission to interrogate the McCann's again, in the UK.
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Offline Victoria

Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2013, 04:26:37 PM »
I think it's clear from reading his book that Amaral simply didn't have the dynamic mind and mental flexibility to handle an investigation as complex as the one he found himself presented with. Nobody, not even Kate and Gerry, would try to argue that the police shouldn't explore theories. Amaral and his colleagues were right to question the statements made by the McCanns' holiday companions. They were right to scrutinise contradictions and of course, they were right to consider the possibility that the parents or friends were involved in their daughter's disappearance. However, within the first twenty-four hours, certainly within the first forty-eight, they should have eliminated the parents from their inquiries. They failed to do so.

Amaral's problem was that he became fixated, to the detriment of the investigation. He misunderstood the forensic evidence, hardly surprising given that the local officers were trying to gather it without even wearing gloves! More worryingly, he grew increasingly paranoid about the motivations of his superiors and his British counterparts, seeing plots and hidden agendas everywhere. In short, he was not fit to carry out the role entrusted to him by the good people of Portugal.

The above was clear to anyone who had so much as a passing interest in the case. For Kate and Gerry - at the centre of it - it would have been painfully clear that Amaral had all but abandoned any sense of objectivity, and was interested only in his own pet theories. Their decision not to indulge his idiocy any longer was perfectly understandable.

Reconstruction? The only thing that needed reconstructing was the investigative process!

Offline Luz

Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2013, 04:38:26 PM »
I wonder if thats why the Portuguese public prosecutor, refused the PJ permission to interrogate the McCann's again, in the UK.

Ignorance is not punishable....

The PJ were not forbidden by the AG, they couldn't under the laws of an independent country, as the UK, to conduct interviews there, as the SY is forbidden to make such interviews in Portugal. That's why there is that ridiculous figure: "rogatory" interviews.

Offline DCI

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Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2013, 04:46:45 PM »
Ignorance is not punishable....

The PJ were not forbidden by the AG, they couldn't under the laws of an independent country, as the UK, to conduct interviews there, as the SY is forbidden to make such interviews in Portugal. That's why there is that ridiculous figure: "rogatory" interviews.

The Madeleine McCann investigation has hit an impasse as police are being blocked from asking the McCanns 100 new questions.
 
Detectives said a 'root and branch' review of the six-month inquiry had 'confirmed suspicions' but failed to uncover any new clues which could solve the disappearance.
 
They have drawn up a list of questions they want to put to Kate and Gerry McCann but they will not be allowed to do so unless they convince a public prosecutor that they have a case against them.
 
They also want to interrogate the other members of the so-called Tapas Nine, and to quiz relatives about the couple and their relationship with their children.
 
But the Portuguese public prosecutor has said he will not authorise any new interrogations without seeing stronger evidence in the case.
 
Police have privately admitted that it would take 'a miracle' for them to build a better case against the couple, although they still hope there could be a forensics breakthrough in the investigation.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-493208/Madeleine-investigation-grinds-halt-police-barred-asking-suspects-100-new-questions.html#ixzz2gUArVlNU
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Offline Carana

Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2013, 04:51:28 PM »
The Madeleine McCann investigation has hit an impasse as police are being blocked from asking the McCanns 100 new questions.
 
Detectives said a 'root and branch' review of the six-month inquiry had 'confirmed suspicions' but failed to uncover any new clues which could solve the disappearance.
 
They have drawn up a list of questions they want to put to Kate and Gerry McCann but they will not be allowed to do so unless they convince a public prosecutor that they have a case against them.
 
They also want to interrogate the other members of the so-called Tapas Nine, and to quiz relatives about the couple and their relationship with their children.
 
But the Portuguese public prosecutor has said he will not authorise any new interrogations without seeing stronger evidence in the case.
 
Police have privately admitted that it would take 'a miracle' for them to build a better case against the couple, although they still hope there could be a forensics breakthrough in the investigation.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-493208/Madeleine-investigation-grinds-halt-police-barred-asking-suspects-100-new-questions.html#ixzz2gUArVlNU


That is not the current state of affairs, I hope.

That article was written: By VANESSA ALLEN

Last updated at 13:36 14 November 2007

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-493208/Madeleine-investigation-grinds-halt-police-barred-asking-suspects-100-new-questions.html#ixzz2gUC26u6n
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Offline DCI

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Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2013, 05:09:38 PM »

That is not the current state of affairs, I hope.

That article was written: By VANESSA ALLEN

Last updated at 13:36 14 November 2007

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-493208/Madeleine-investigation-grinds-halt-police-barred-asking-suspects-100-new-questions.html#ixzz2gUC26u6n
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

If you read my posts above, you will see its from 2007, re Rogatory statements. It was a reply to Luz post
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Offline Luz

Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2013, 05:16:04 PM »
If you read my posts above, you will see its from 2007, re Rogatory statements. It was a reply to Luz post

Your posts, if you allow me, reveal a total ignorance not only of the law but also of the "demarches" that were taken under the Public Prosecutors supervision.
By now you should know that newspapers are not a liable source. They state whatever sells the most.

Edited

And by the way,rogatories are not ridiculous per se, I expressed myself wrongly; the interviews conducted under the rogatories by Leicestershire police were ridiculous, to say the least. You just have to read them.

After those what was the point of requesting more?!
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 05:20:30 PM by Luz »

Offline Carana

Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2013, 05:17:45 PM »
It is not just anecdotal. Policing has come a long way in the last thirty years in its careful use of scientific truths. Gone are the days when interviews were simple simple cops talking to simple suspects. Now the idea is to use cognitive interviewing and careful collation of facts and use this against a background of truths about human behaviour and human memory. What we so often see on forums is people still thinking in old police ways- methods that have been long disproven.

I think that we should hold people on fora to the same standards- "I saw it on TV" or "Everybody knows that", or "Some people are so gifted they can see things that ordinary mortals don't" should be consigned to the bins of discussion as meaningless. What does matter is what we know and how we know it, not what we believe and why we believe it.

Most fall-outs between the two camps are caused by simple blindness on both sides to what is really the case.


I'd agree... but in Portimão?

Offline DCI

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Re: Was the refusal to partake in a reconstruction to their detriment?
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2013, 05:19:15 PM »
Your posts, if you allow me, reveal a total ignorance not only of the law but also of the "demarches" that were taken under the Public Prosecutors supervision.
By now you should know that newspapers are not a liable source. They state whatever sells the most.

So, if thats the case, why were the McCann's not interrogated??

By the way, Ignorance is bliss  @)(++(*
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