Author Topic: Why did the Smiths return to Praia da Luz in May 2007?  (Read 6851 times)

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AnneGuedes

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Re: Why did the Smiths return to Praia da Luz in May 2007?
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2014, 02:20:08 PM »
Have you found a paper trace of this? If so, could you enlighten me?

Why would the MP have sent a rog to the HO when the Smiths don't live in the UK?
Excellent question !
It's all in the Files, Carana. To be honest, I'm not sure about what the HO did with the rog letter concerning the Smiths. I just guess that the whole pack went to the LC, that had no authority neither on the Smiths nor on the Gardai. They possibly phoned the MP.
What I pretended to suggest is that nobody was interested in the Smiths !

Offline Carana

Re: Why did the Smiths return to Praia da Luz in May 2007?
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2014, 02:27:24 PM »
Excellent question !
It's all in the Files, Carana. To be honest, I'm not sure about what the HO did with the rog letter concerning the Smiths. I just guess that the whole pack went to the LC, that had no authority neither on the Smiths nor on the Gardai. They possibly phoned the MP.
What I pretended to suggest is that nobody was interested in the Smiths !

I haven't even found a request to the HO concerning the Smiths. I was hoping that you had, even if it had been sent to the wrong jurisdiction.

When was Amaral supposed to have sent all these rogs?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 02:31:43 PM by Carana »

Offline Carana

Re: Why did the Smiths return to Praia da Luz in May 2007?
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2014, 02:42:56 PM »
Excellent question !
It's all in the Files, Carana. To be honest, I'm not sure about what the HO did with the rog letter concerning the Smiths. I just guess that the whole pack went to the LC, that had no authority neither on the Smiths nor on the Gardai. They possibly phoned the MP.
What I pretended to suggest is that nobody was interested in the Smiths !

I haven't found that. Could you show me where?

AnneGuedes

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Re: Why did the Smiths return to Praia da Luz in May 2007?
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2014, 03:07:00 PM »
I haven't even found a request to the HO concerning the Smiths. I was hoping that you had, even if it had been sent to the wrong jurisdiction.

When was Amaral supposed to have sent all these rogs?
The rog sender is always the MP.

Offline Carana

Re: Why did the Smiths return to Praia da Luz in May 2007?
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2014, 03:19:18 PM »
The rog sender is always the MP.

That would be in the files, wouldn't it, as you have said. Could you show me where a rog was sent to the UK Home Office, either during Amaral's mandate or even later concerning the Smiths?

I haven't found a trace of Amaral organising any rogs at all.... have you?

AnneGuedes

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Re: Why did the Smiths return to Praia da Luz in May 2007?
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2014, 03:59:14 PM »
That would be in the files, wouldn't it, as you have said. Could you show me where a rog was sent to the UK Home Office, either during Amaral's mandate or even later concerning the Smiths?

I haven't found a trace of Amaral organising any rogs at all.... have you?
Amaral organized no rogs, that was during Rebelo's time. It started on the 9th of December.
The PJ discussed the questions and the inteviewed with the PR who made suggestions, then the PJ wrote down the questions and the PR corrected.
The letters were sent on the 7th of January (the process took almost a month, there was Xmas in the middle) to the HO through Eurojust. The HO got them on the 13th
It would have taken 6 days (instead of the 52 days it took) but...
the HO said it was the wrong route and  sent them back to Eurojust. Eurojust, after analysing the situation, decided to send the letters back to the MP (1st of February).
On the 7th, the MP sent the letters back to the HO, this time using the route required by the HO. On the 20th the MP was about to lose patience. On the 27th, the HO accepted the letters.
20 days
I hope it helps.


Offline j.rob

Re: Why did the Smiths return to Praia da Luz in May 2007?
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2014, 04:31:29 PM »
From the PJ, files, the Smith testimony. The family testifies as to seeing a man carrying a child answering to the description of Madeleine at around 10pm on the evening she disappeared.

And again, members of the Smith family testify to the police following having seen Gerry McCann on TV, coming off the plane on his return from the Algarve and carrying his son.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

I would describe this as incredibly damning evidence against the McCanns. It also happened to be a large group of people who walked past someone who looked like Gerry that evening.

It speaks volumes about the Smith family, and the veracity of their testimony, that Kate and Gerry have not, for once, attempted to discredit those who have come up with incriminating evidence.

Kate obviously felt obliged to refer to it in her book, but gets around the loaded issue of it being incredibly incriminating evidence against the McCanns by claiming that the similarities between Jane Tanner's sighting and the Smith sighting  (despite the 45 minute gap) 'speak for themselves'.




Offline Carana

Re: Why did the Smiths return to Praia da Luz in May 2007?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2014, 05:01:58 PM »
Amaral organized no rogs, that was during Rebelo's time. It started on the 9th of December.
The PJ discussed the questions and the inteviewed with the PR who made suggestions, then the PJ wrote down the questions and the PR corrected.
The letters were sent on the 7th of January (the process took almost a month, there was Xmas in the middle) to the HO through Eurojust. The HO got them on the 13th
It would have taken 6 days (instead of the 52 days it took) but...
the HO said it was the wrong route and  sent them back to Eurojust. Eurojust, after analysing the situation, decided to send the letters back to the MP (1st of February).
On the 7th, the MP sent the letters back to the HO, this time using the route required by the HO. On the 20th the MP was about to lose patience. On the 27th, the HO accepted the letters.
20 days
I hope it helps.

Thanks, Anne.

Why was Amaral moaning about the lack of cooperation from the UK if he hadn't got the rogs organised during his 5 months on the case?


« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 05:04:49 PM by Carana »

AnneGuedes

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Re: Why did the Smiths return to Praia da Luz in May 2007?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2014, 05:09:49 PM »
Thanks, Anne. (Was everything sent via Eurojust? Not sure.)

Anyway, why was Amaral moaning about the lack of cooperation from the UK if he hadn't got the rogs organised during his 5 months on the case?
I think that the letters were completed (they had time for this..) between the Eurojust episode and  their final expedition through the juridical cooperation service of the (Portuguese) Foreign Office.
Gonçalo Amaral complained about informations (medical, bank) that they asked and never received. You can see the PJ letters and the refusal answers in the Files.
GA wanted to interview the Smiths again in Portugal, no need of a rog for that.

Offline j.rob

Re: Why did the Smiths return to Praia da Luz in May 2007?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2014, 05:31:50 PM »
If Smith was correct and the man was Gerry McCann and he was carrying Madeleine who appeared to be in a deep sleep and wearing pyjamas, that would place him scurrying away from the resort towards the beach at almost exactly the same time that Kate entered the apartment, found Madeleine missing, and ran back to the restaurant where the adults in their party were eating.

It is interesting to overlay the Jane Tanner alleged sighting into this picture.

On page 76 of her book Madeleine, Kate explains that at around 9.15pm  Jane had seen a man on Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva carrying a child who appeared to be asleep.

(My emphasis in bold.)

According to Kate's book: 'when I'd discovered that Madeleine was missing <ie at 10pm> she <Jane> had been in her apartment three doors along. Hearing the commotion, she had come out and discovered what was going on. Taking Fiona to one side, she told her how, after leaving the restaurant to make her first check <ie: allegedly at 9.15pm> on her children, and having passed Gerry and Jes talking on Rua Dr Gentil Martins, she had seen this man crossing the junction with Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva, then or fifteen feet in front of her, walking from left to fight. Obviously, at the time she had thought little of it: as far as any of us knew, Madeleine was asleep in her baed, and, having just seen Gerry, Jane was well aware that he had been in our apartment only a few minutes before. quite naturally, she'd assumed the man was a father with his child, perpahs on their way home from a creche. As soon as she heard about Madeleine's disappearance, everything fell in to place and she felt sick.'

This in my opinion looks like a very well-rehearsed attempt to create alibis for Gerry and place in firmly in the resort (as opposed to unaccounted for for a period of time which would look suspicious). On his return from 'the check' Gerry passes and has a chat with someone from his tennis group, Jes.

Jane Tanner just so happens to be out and about at this precise time, checking on her children at 9.15pm. In her statement to police she says she passed Gerry and Jes en route to do her apartment check. This creates a very clear alibi. On page 71 of her book Kate claims that there was subsequently some uncertainty about which side of the road Jes and Gerry were actually on, however she notes: ....exactly where they were standing is not crucial. What may be more important is that all three of them were there.

Why is it so important that all three were there? Well,  apart from the question of establishing alibis, this is also when Tanner alleges she sees Madeleine's abductor - going in a different direction to the Smith sighting.

Jane Tanner was also, interestingly, back in her apartment when the commotion (over the alleged discovery of Madeleine's disappearance) broke out. Jane Tanner is certainly in key hot spots that night!

What strikes me as revealing is that when the commotion breaks out, Kate in her book claims that Jane takes Fiona to one side and having passed Gerry and Jes talking she sees the man who she believes may have abducted Madeleine.

The  Jane Tanner's 'sighting' was only given significance, apparently, after the discovery of Madeleine's disappearance,, which can account for her having done nothing about it at the time (which would not be the case if it had been after the disappearance). It also places the time of the abduction (as far as the McCanns and their friends are concerned, at 9.15pm. This would mean that a potential abductor would have had a 45 minute head start (minimum) before the alarm was raised. And of course it means that, if the Smiths did see Gerry carrying Madeleine at 10pm, it would have been a time of maximum activity in the apartment and very immediate area, as the alarm had only just been called. Therefore Gerry might have got away with creeping away with Madeleine, were it not for the Smith family. In any case, it Tanner's sighting took the eye off the Smith sighting.

It is very telling to me that Jane Tanner is out and about around the resort and in and out of her apartment at both 9.15pm and again at 10pm. These are both critical times that evening, it seems.

Offline Carana

Re: Why did the Smiths return to Praia da Luz in May 2007?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2014, 07:38:34 PM »
I think that the letters were completed (they had time for this..) between the Eurojust episode and  their final expedition through the juridical cooperation service of the (Portuguese) Foreign Office.
Gonçalo Amaral complained about informations (medical, bank) that they asked and never received. You can see the PJ letters and the refusal answers in the Files.
GA wanted to interview the Smiths again in Portugal, no need of a rog for that.

Who did he ask, besides phoning a certain Glenn Power on 4 May who wasn't even on the case?

A solvency check was done on the T9, which seems as if it was prior to the rogs, but he didn't read the bottom line, seemingly. For some unfathomable reason, he jumped to the conclusion that they didn't have any bank cards... which is not what the check was about.


He seems to have missed this bit:


All persons were checked by Economic Crime Unit under the supervision of DS John Wardle. There were no concerns and no notifications or concerns by any other financial institute.

Records of current bank accounts are not automatically held. They are recorded when and if required for credit checking purposes only.

AnneGuedes

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Re: Why did the Smiths return to Praia da Luz in May 2007?
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2014, 08:01:34 PM »


All persons were checked by Economic Crime Unit under the supervision of DS John Wardle. There were no concerns and no notifications or concerns by any other financial institute.

Records of current bank accounts are not automatically held. They are recorded when and if required for credit checking purposes only.

Do you call that an answer ? No joined documents.
I've read many letters refusing informations with lots of justifications of course. When I have time, I'll look for them.