UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: adam on December 24, 2014, 04:06:25 AM
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Over 30 'No comments' & 'can't remembers'. Over 10 don't knows' & 'can't say'. Answers to simple questions about the massacre night and his family.
Several one word answers as well as vague answers such as 'not really', 'I think so' & 'less than 40 but more than 10 !'
Answers often said in a singing tone while chewing a strand of his expensive jumper. So not exactly outraged and angry at being arrested. Or trying hard to assist the police in confirming it is Sheila.
The police had to often ask the same simple questions several times in order to get a straight answer.
He initially said he phoned Julie before the police & could not remember what they spoke about at 3am. He eventually said Julie was phoned after the police phone call. Asked why he phoned Julie, he said 'no comment'.
Now knowing Julie had spoken to the police he said she did it due to 'jilted love'. But did not elaborate.
He even suggested the dog fired the second shot at Sheila ! Interestingly after they suggested Sheila could not have shot herself twice. Something he did not argue with or demand proof for. Perhaps because he knew she had not shot herself twice.
When struggling further he suggested Neville may have said 'she' rather than 'Sheila'. Suggesting a random women broke in, killed everyone and left the gun on Sheila !
He also admitted he knew lots of ways into WHF through locked or unlocked windows. Something he did not tell the police on the massacre night, or afterwards.
Sadly it seems we will never know about the last conversation between him & Sheila in the fields. He was asked this simple question but said 'no comment'.
His frostiness with the police after becoming a suspect was in stark contrast to the previous few weeks. After first ringing the police at 3.10am/3.26am/3.36am you could hardly stop him talking, as he insinuated Sheila and made them nice cups of tea.
These interviews were several weeks after the deaths. Jeremy seemed to be recovering well & enjoying himself, telling the police how lovely the weather was in St Tropez. So he could not use grief/shock as a reason for his evasiveness.
Stan Jones said having to write questions and answers down, (rather than taped interviews) meant Bamber had time to anticipate the next question and prepare his answer. He believed a taped interview would have got a confession. This I do not believe. Bamber was much too determined.
Although he could not remember a lot he testified at court and didn't say the words 'no comment', 'can't say', 'don't remember' & 'don't know' once. Although his answers in court became more vague the more pressure he was under. He didn't sing either but kept smiling at the jury. How nice.
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I dont understand why the interviews were not taped on the back of The Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE)?
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/tape_recorded_interviews/
The police lied when they interviewed Matthew MacDonald. They said they knew he had called GH from WHF - impossible to prove either way.
The police lied again when they interviewed JB. They said they knew SC had been murdered - the pathologist has always maintained that he was unable to confirm whether SC was murdered or took her own life.
The police were notorious for the above pre PACE hence the high profile MoJ's from the 70's and 80's: Birmingham 6, Guildford 4, Maguire 7, Stephen Downing, Stefan Kiszko etc. It seems to me you either buckled under physical and/or psychological pressure as the aforementioned did; or you stood your ground as JB did. Either way if the police thought they had their man (or woman in the case of Judith Ward) the interviewee/defendant could say goodbye to his/her liberty.
Stephen Downing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clb2Yy1y27Y @ 4 min in
Stefan Kizsko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPZPwDVbffY @ 8 min in
I am also mindful of NB referring to Witham police as akin to Dad's Army. Did NB share these views with JB and if so, and JB is innocent, then he must have been thinking his father was right!
"he (NB) commented that if they were like the police at Witham they were no more good than Dad's Army":
(bottom of 1st, top of 2nd)
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1651
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1652
For those who believe JB guilty then yes perhaps his behaviour seems a little odd. But for those who see him as the victim of a MoJ then it was perhaps his way of expressing his anger without getting all SHOUTY! If he is a MoJ how awful to lose 5 members of his immediate family and then be accused of murdering them.
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You keep saying "if JB is a miscarriage of justice" when you know very well that he isn't!
If JB knew that his father believed that the local police were useless, why the flitterin' 'eck did he waste precious minutes looking up their number, instead of getting his ass over to WHF asap to calm down the sister who he never even got on with... crackers!
"OK dad, I'll be over in ten minutes... keep her talking and I'll sneak in quietly through the washroom window (you know, the one I used before when we locked ourselves out)... and grab her from behind, then there's no need to get the keystone cops involved!".
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I dont understand why the interviews were not taped on the back of The Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE)?
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/tape_recorded_interviews/
The police lied when they interviewed Matthew MacDonald. They said they knew he had called GH from WHF - impossible to prove either way.
The police lied again when they interviewed JB. They said they knew SC had been murdered - the pathologist has always maintained that he was unable to confirm whether SC was murdered or took her own life.
The police were notorious for the above pre PACE hence the high profile MoJ's from the 70's and 80's: Birmingham 6, Guildford 4, Maguire 7, Stephen Downing, Stefan Kiszko etc. It seems to me you either buckled under physical and/or psychological pressure as the aforementioned did; or you stood your ground as JB did. Either way if the police thought they had their man (or woman in the case of Judith Ward) the interviewee/defendant could say goodbye to his/her liberty.
Stephen Downing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clb2Yy1y27Y @ 4 min in
Stefan Kizsko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPZPwDVbffY @ 8 min in
I am also mindful of NB referring to Witham police as akin to Dad's Army. Did NB share these views with JB and if so, and JB is innocent, then he must have been thinking his father was right!
"he (NB) commented that if they were like the police at Witham they were no more good than Dad's Army":
(bottom of 1st, top of 2nd)
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1651
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1652
For those who believe JB guilty then yes perhaps his behaviour seems a little odd. But for those who see him as the victim of a MoJ then it was perhaps his way of expressing his anger without getting all SHOUTY! If he is a MoJ how awful to lose 5 members of his immediate family and then be accused of murdering them.
The police did not say to MM 'We know you called Goldhanger from WHF'. That was a made up quote from Nugs on the Blue forum.
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You keep saying "if JB is a miscarriage of justice" when you know very well that he isn't!
If JB knew that his father believed that the local police were useless, why the flitterin' 'eck did he waste precious minutes looking up their number, instead of getting his ass over to WHF asap to calm down the sister who he never even got on with... crackers!
"OK dad, I'll be over in ten minutes... keep her talking and I'll sneak in quietly through the washroom window (you know, the one I used before when we locked ourselves out)... and grab her from behind, then there's no need to get the keystone cops involved!".
I sincerely believe JB is the victim of a MoJ but my belief does not mean that I am right! I don't believe in *bearded men in the sky but that doesn't mean that I am right either! Those claiming to be the victim of a MoJ will be believed by few, lay and professional. That's the nature of the beast/MoJ. The majority, lay and professional, will believe the official verdict: guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't have long running MoJ's as it would quickly become apparent to all concerned and wrongful convictions would be quashed sooner rather than later. For those interested please refer to Dr Michael Naughton below.
The following true film about the Bridgwater four illustrates perfectly all the hallmarks of a MoJ particularly police fabricating evidence and prosecution witnesses lying. The case underwent 5 police inquiries and 2 appeal hearings over 17 years until the convictions were quashed. For those who don't have the time to watch the full film I would recommend watching the end at 2hr 37 min in:
Bad Company - Bridgwater Four:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHinL8ON3Uo
World in Action - Birmingham 6:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGQfe7k3un0&spfreload=1
Dr Michael Naughton - Introduction to the innocence network UK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8EVLJNUGQM
It seems to me those wrongly convicted whose sentences are subsequently quashed do so with the support of one or two individuals. Usually the victim's mother and a solicitor or investigative journalist:
Michael Hickey - Mother and Paul Foot - investigative journalist
Stefan Kiszko - Mother and Campbell Malone - solicitor
Stephen Downing - Mother and Don Hale - investigative journalist
I will always maintain that had JB's birth mother supported him as the mothers of the above did with their sons his conviction would be quashed by now.
It now seems that if NB phoned JB there was no "Please come over..." Just "Sheila's gone crazy she's got the gun". On this basis and the fact the line went dead I think JB's indecisiveness and subsequent actions are entirely plausible.
How could JB continue the conversation with NB if, as he claims, the line went dead?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5723.msg202984#msg202984
*Excl Daddy Christmas 8)-)))
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The police did not say to MM 'We know you called Goldhanger from WHF'. That was a made up quote from Nugs on the Blue forum.
I thought the police said they knew a phone call had been made from WHF to GH but I will need to re-check on that.
In any event they lied to JB when they said "I will tell you now that it has been proved that your sister Sheila did not kill herself and in fact she was murdered along with your parents and the twins, is there anything you wish to say about this?" This was a lie. The pathologist has always maintained that he was unable to say either way whether SC was murdered or took her own life.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=296.0;attach=1258
46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
If the police were deliberately and knowingly misleading JB, which JB was no doubt aware of, then I think his behaviour during his interviews was understandable.
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There is a lot "made up" crap about this case, Adam.
The word Cuckoo for instance, it is NOT documented anywhere that the relatives referred to Bamber as a Cuckoo. Someone on blue suggested the family saw Bamber as such and suddenly it's become a fact.
Can someone point me in the direction where it is documented that Sheila wasn't wearing underwear. I know she was having her period when she was murdered.
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Isn't suggesting there is evidence of a certain thing (which may not actually exist) a police interrogation tactic to make a suspect say what they really know? In the case of Matthew McDonald his response was quite emphatic in his denial of his guilt. In Bamber's interviews he is evasive and fails to answer questions which could incriminate him rather than trying to help.
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Isn't suggesting there is evidence of a certain thing (which may not actually exist) a police interrogation tactic to make a suspect say what they really know? In the case of Matthew McDonald his response was quite emphatic in his denial of his guilt. In Bamber's interviews he is evasive and fails to answer questions which could incriminate him rather than trying to help.
The style of interview is imo different. Matthew's is far less accusatory and more open and fact-finding. JB's is accusatory, closed and aggressive. In JB's interviews when the interviewer is trying to trip JB up he says along the lines of "What have you got to say about that..." They were attempting to tie him in knots and imo his testimony stood up to scrutiny. Why didn't they question him about the silencer?
Although PACE act was passed in 1984 it didn't actually come into effect until 1986. This covered police interviews. Prior to this I am not sure what the rules were with regard to police interviews. Sure the interviews needed to be robust in the extreme in an attempt to get to the truth but was it ok to lie and knowingly mislead? Surely not? Where is the line drawn? Waterboarding? Torture? Beatings?
https://www.gov.uk/police-and-criminal-evidence-act-1984-pace-codes-of-practice
CODE C 2012
Requirements for the detention, treatment and questioning of suspects not related to terrorism in police custody by police officers
CODE E 2010
Audio recording of interviews with suspects in the police station
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How could JB continue the conversation with NB if, as he claims, the line went dead?
I know he didn't 'cause there was no-one at the other end, 8((()*/ ... I made that up, in just the same way that Jeremy Bamber did about the non-existent phone call from his dad!
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There is a lot "made up" crap about this case, Adam.
The word Cuckoo for instance, it is NOT documented anywhere that the relatives referred to Bamber as a Cuckoo. Someone on blue suggested the family saw Bamber as such and suddenly it's become a fact.
Can someone point me in the direction where it is documented that Sheila wasn't wearing underwear. I know she was having her period when she was murdered.
I've never seen any. The pathologist just refers to the victims as dressed in their nightwear. I think you will find it stems from the rather warped and deviant mind of a certain poster over the way by the name of Tubby Tesco! Whether SC was or wasn't wearing underwear what does it prove? It seems to me it's just an excuse for TT to get off on accusing the police of interfering with SC in some sort of sexually deviant way.
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Can someone, anyone, please help....
Why was JB not asked about the silencer during his police interviews?
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Can someone, anyone, please help....
Why was JB not asked about the silencer during his police interviews?
He was and said he went out to shoot rabbits with it off.
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He was and said he went out to shoot rabbits with it off.
Sorry I didn't make myself clear I meant with regard to the so-called blood evidence? Why didn't EP confront JB during his interviews with the 'bombshell evidence' ie the silencer that was found by the relatives which after forensic testing was found to contain blood representing SC's blood type/group and paint matching the aga surround and a grey hair that was lost prior to arrival at FSS.
EP grilled JB re:
- JM's testimony
- June's bike
- Windows
- Phone calls
- Leaving gun out, sights/scope and silencer with regard to his claim of shooting rabbits
- His movements during the day and evening
- His relationship with June, SC and JM
- The wills
- His financial status
- Etc, etc
BUT
No mention of the silencer in terms of blood, paint and hair. Why not? Do we have all the interviews? Are some missing?
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Sorry I didn't make myself clear I meant with regard to the so-called blood evidence? Why didn't EP confront JB during his interviews with the 'bombshell evidence' ie the silencer that was found by the relatives which after forensic testing was found to contain blood representing SC's blood type/group and paint matching the aga surround and a grey hair that was lost prior to arrival at FSS.
EP grilled JB re:
- JM's testimony
- June's bike
- Windows
- Phone calls
- Leaving gun out, sights/scope and silencer with regard to his claim of shooting rabbits
- His movements during the day and evening
- His relationship with June, SC and JM
- The wills
- His financial status
- Etc, etc
BUT
No mention of the silencer in terms of blood, paint and hair. Why not? Do we have all the interviews? Are some missing?
there must be more interviews because he was not charged with the murders on the ones that are available . But they knew about the human blood according to the lab dates and presumably they knew about the scratches - so I don't know either . Looks like they were concentrating on the "hit man " theory.
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there must be more interviews because he was not charged with the murders on the ones that are available . But they knew about the human blood according to the lab dates and presumably they knew about the scratches - so I don't know either . Looks like they were concentrating on the "hit man " theory.
He was charged with the murders and arrested at Dover when he returned from France. I don't know if he was interviewed further after that? As I understand it the police would not have been obliged to question him about the silencer, blood, paint and the elusive grey hair!
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I sincerely believe JB is the victim of a MoJ but my belief does not mean that I am right! I don't believe in *bearded men in the sky but that doesn't mean that I am right either! Those claiming to be the victim of a MoJ will be believed by few, lay and professional. That's the nature of the beast/MoJ. The majority, lay and professional, will believe the official verdict: guilty beyond reasonable doubt. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't have long running MoJ's as it would quickly become apparent to all concerned and wrongful convictions would be quashed sooner rather than later. For those interested please refer to Dr Michael Naughton below.
The following true film about the Bridgwater four illustrates perfectly all the hallmarks of a MoJ particularly police fabricating evidence and prosecution witnesses lying. The case underwent 5 police inquiries and 2 appeal hearings over 17 years until the convictions were quashed. For those who don't have the time to watch the full film I would recommend watching the end at 2hr 37 min in:
Bad Company - Bridgwater Four:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHinL8ON3Uo
World in Action - Birmingham 6:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGQfe7k3un0&spfreload=1
Dr Michael Naughton - Introduction to the innocence network UK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8EVLJNUGQM
It seems to me those wrongly convicted whose sentences are subsequently quashed do so with the support of one or two individuals. Usually the victim's mother and a solicitor or investigative journalist:
Michael Hickey - Mother and Paul Foot - investigative journalist
Stefan Kiszko - Mother and Campbell Malone - solicitor
Stephen Downing - Mother and Don Hale - investigative journalist
I will always maintain that had JB's birth mother supported him as the mothers of the above did with their sons his conviction would be quashed by now.
It now seems that if NB phoned JB there was no "Please come over..." Just "Sheila's gone crazy she's got the gun". On this basis and the fact the line went dead I think JB's indecisiveness and subsequent actions are entirely plausible.
How could JB continue the conversation with NB if, as he claims, the line went dead?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5723.msg202984#msg202984
*Excl Daddy Christmas 8)-)))
*&^^&
Why did you omit Stephen Downing’s father? Rewriting history again or something else?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Clb2Yy1y27Y
Don Hale, another Mark Williams Thomas type personality.
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Bamber said in the interviews he knew several ways into WHF through windows.
He would only go through a window if there was no one at home. If it was such an emergency that he had to get into WHF through a window, it is likely it was a quick visit to collect something.
This would mean he would be leaving WHF through a window as WHF would still be empty.
Bit dangerous exciting WHF & leaving a window open.
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Over 30 'No comments' & 'can't remembers'. Over 10 don't knows' & 'can't say'. Answers to simple questions about the massacre night and his family.
Several one word answers as well as vague answers such as 'not really', 'I think so' & 'less than 40 but more than 10 !'
Answers often said in a singing tone while chewing a strand of his expensive jumper. So not exactly outraged and angry at being arrested. Or trying hard to assist the police in confirming it is Sheila.
The police had to often ask the same simple questions several times in order to get a straight answer.
He initially said he phoned Julie before the police & could not remember what they spoke about at 3am. He eventually said Julie was phoned after the police phone call. Asked why he phoned Julie, he said 'no comment'.
Now knowing Julie had spoken to the police he said she did it due to 'jilted love'. But did not elaborate.
He even suggested the dog fired the second shot at Sheila ! Interestingly after they suggested Sheila could not have shot herself twice. Something he did not argue with or demand proof for. Perhaps because he knew she had not shot herself twice.
When struggling further he suggested Neville may have said 'she' rather than 'Sheila'. Suggesting a random women broke in, killed everyone and left the gun on Sheila !
He also admitted he knew lots of ways into WHF through locked or unlocked windows. Something he did not tell the police on the massacre night, or afterwards.
Sadly it seems we will never know about the last conversation between him & Sheila in the fields. He was asked this simple question but said 'no comment'.
His frostiness with the police after becoming a suspect was in stark contrast to the previous few weeks. After first ringing the police at 3.10am/3.26am/3.36am you could hardly stop him talking, as he insinuated Sheila and made them nice cups of tea.
These interviews were several weeks after the deaths. Jeremy seemed to be recovering well & enjoying himself, telling the police how lovely the weather was in St Tropez. So he could not use grief/shock as a reason for his evasiveness.
Stan Jones said having to write questions and answers down, (rather than taped interviews) meant Bamber had time to anticipate the next question and prepare his answer. He believed a taped interview would have got a confession. This I do not believe. Bamber was much too determined.
Although he could not remember a lot he testified at court and didn't say the words 'no comment', 'can't say', 'don't remember' & 'don't know' once. Although his answers in court became more vague the more pressure he was under. He didn't sing either but kept smiling at the jury. How nice.
Oh, he’s so thick he even asked DS Jones in his second interview under caution if he could look at his first statement to see what he’d already said! *%87
I suppose when he kept smiling at the jury he thought in his psychopathic brain he’d fool them too by coming across “nice”
That didn’t work, either
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