Author Topic: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber  (Read 38498 times)

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Dillon

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Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2012, 08:48:37 PM »
Yet again the voice of common sense and sanity from starryian. Firstly, may I say that I have occasionally posted as a guest on this forum rather then a member to try and reduce the risk of being " outed" by the likes of the investigative Colleen ! I have been interested in this case since the day of the tragedy because I am married to a member of the extended family. We were incredulous that Sheila could have possibly been the perpetrator whilst not at that stage in any way suspecting Jeremy. With respect to ABS who seems to be a perfectly nice person and entitled to express her perspective, I do think that you are theorising without factual understanding of the family dynamics. Yes, in theory abrupt withdrawal of anti psychotics liuke haloperidol ( a fairly nasty old fashioned drug ) might precipitate psychotic crises in some individuals. However, I have very reliable information from two members of the family who I have known for some thirty years and who spoke individually to Sheila during the evening prior to the murders that she was in in an optimistic, calm and positive mental state during the evening prior to the murders. Hardly the impending psychiatric catastrophe portrayed as a consequence of haloperidol reduction.

Sheila's mental illness has been blown up out of all proportion from a schizoaffective disorder into full blown paranoid schizophrenia. Yes, she may have struggled bringing up twins. Who would not ? I have heard that for a time they had daytime care from someone outside the family but NOT formal fostering which has legal meaning within UK family law. You have to ask who has generated this picture of significant schizophrenia ( Bamber ? )
Fundamentally, his whole case rests on the premise that his adopted sister committed these murders.

With respect, ABS, and I appreciate that you are not one of the posters on either forum who has indulged in mud slinging, I think that your theorising about some aspects of this case is based on opinion rather then evidence. You are entitled to these beliefs and I feel that they are sincerely held but please consider how unlikely it is that Sheila could have slaughtered her family . She adored her twins, she adored her father and maybe she had an uncomfortable relationship with her kind, caring mother who had been brought up with firm moral values and a strong belief in Christianity.

Joanne asked about the role of others in helping look after the twins. To the best of my knowledge, I have heard that their father Colin Caffell and his father were greatly involved and that it was very important to Sheila that this was the case.     

Offline Stephanie

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Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2012, 08:48:58 PM »
Hi Steph, im fine thanks. Are you well?  8)-)))

myself and abs have been turning threads into football commentary, shall i open the pub up?   8((()*/

Hi Andrea - all good here thanks.. Glad you got the message okay!

Pub sounds like a good idea but you may want to get some bouncers in to stand on the doors... think it's going to be one of those nights....  @)(++(*  @)(++(* 

ps: Simon's great thanks! Fingercrossed not much longer now!! x
"When flying monkeys come calling, just click your ruby slippers together and remember that even narcs can be defeated once you know the truth"

Offline Stephanie

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  • Posts: 1612
  • Total likes: 31
  • I was conned by Simon Hall & many others
Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2012, 08:50:19 PM »
Hi Steph, im fine thanks. Are you well?  8)-)))

myself and abs have been turning threads into football commentary, shall i open the pub up?   8((()*/

Hi Andrea - all good here thanks.. Glad you got the message okay!

Pub sounds like a good idea but you may want to get some bouncers in to stand on the doors... think it's going to be one of those nights....  @)(++(*  @)(++(* 

ps: Simon's great thanks! Fingercrossed not much longer now!! x

I meant to add - (Simon' great thanks) for asking... don't want anyone reading into that.... tensions appear high tonight....  8(0(*
"When flying monkeys come calling, just click your ruby slippers together and remember that even narcs can be defeated once you know the truth"

Offline Andrea

Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2012, 08:50:28 PM »
Ok ill open up now.  @)(++(*

Offline abs

Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2012, 08:58:33 PM »
Yet again the voice of common sense and sanity from starryian. Firstly, may I say that I have occasionally posted as a guest on this forum rather then a member to try and reduce the risk of being " outed" by the likes of the investigative Colleen ! I have been interested in this case since the day of the tragedy because I am married to a member of the extended family. We were incredulous that Sheila could have possibly been the perpetrator whilst not at that stage in any way suspecting Jeremy. With respect to ABS who seems to be a perfectly nice person and entitled to express her perspective, I do think that you are theorising without factual understanding of the family dynamics. Yes, in theory abrupt withdrawal of anti psychotics liuke haloperidol ( a fairly nasty old fashioned drug ) might precipitate psychotic crises in some individuals. However, I have very reliable information from two members of the family who I have known for some thirty years and who spoke individually to Sheila during the evening prior to the murders that she was in in an optimistic, calm and positive mental state during the evening prior to the murders. Hardly the impending psychiatric catastrophe portrayed as a consequence of haloperidol reduction.

Sheila's mental illness has been blown up out of all proportion from a schizoaffective disorder into full blown paranoid schizophrenia. Yes, she may have struggled bringing up twins. Who would not ? I have heard that for a time they had daytime care from someone outside the family but NOT formal fostering which has legal meaning within UK family law. You have to ask who has generated this picture of significant schizophrenia ( Bamber ? )
Fundamentally, his whole case rests on the premise that his adopted sister committed these murders.

With respect, ABS, and I appreciate that you are not one of the posters on either forum who has indulged in mud slinging, I think that your theorising about some aspects of this case is based on opinion rather then evidence. You are entitled to these beliefs and I feel that they are sincerely held but please consider how unlikely it is that Sheila could have slaughtered her family . She adored her twins, she adored her father and maybe she had an uncomfortable relationship with her kind, caring mother who had been brought up with firm moral values and a strong belief in Christianity.

Joanne asked about the role of others in helping look after the twins. To the best of my knowledge, I have heard that their father Colin Caffell and his father were greatly involved and that it was very important to Sheila that this was the case.     

I can not deny that.
Thanks for your post - a nice post!

Offline starryian

Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2012, 09:00:29 PM »
I obviously don't know who did it - no one but Jeremy knows that for sure.
I have a hard time seeing Sheila doing it - she COULD however, it is not impossible. She was young, Ralph was older, if he had already been shot, he wouldn't have been able to put up as much resistance than normally. She COULD have cleaned up.
I have as hard a time seeing Jeremy do it (alone at least). It is a daunting task to enter a house with two children and THREE adults with the intention of killing them all single handedly. I just cannot fathom how that would be possible at all.
If it was Sheila, she could have quickly shot the boys and only having two adults in the same room to deal with.
Something is missing in both scenarios - I don't think any of us are close to knowing what happened.
An interesting synopsis Abs. I am rather puzzled at your suggestion that you have a hard time believing that Bamber could have done it?. Abs, yes it was a daunting task, but I believe that Bamber had planned this for months if not years. he was committed to killing his family. Julie Mugford states that Bamber became almost obsessed with the idea. If you take this case and divide it piecemeal then it is easier and far more planned and executed that one may first imagine.
First and foremost was the timing; everyone in the family had to be at that farmhouse that night for his plan to succeed. Secondly, Bamber had the perfect foil - his sisters mental illness. Thirdly, Bamber had the means to kill them lying right there in the house - an Anschutz .22 and the additional benefit of having a silencer. This effectively meant that he could murder them one-by-one and without alerting the others. Fourthly, Bamber did not live at the farm. He could murder them in the dead of night and make good his escape, all without arousing suspicion, create an alibi and submit his cock n bull story about receiving the phone call from his father to make it perfectly clear he was not at the farmhouse.
I understand Abs that it is difficult to imagine that a son who had been given everything he ever wanted would be capable of such an evil, heinous act. But I believe we are dealing with a very cunning, devious and scheming psychopath. A psychopath such as Bamber would have no problem killing members of his own family if he though he would benefit by it. The act did not go smoothly as Bamber had hoped. His father had put up a fight and it obviously surprised Bamber just how many bullets it took to take down another human being - he had to reload at least twice. This was not part of the plan. He also had another shock upon discovering that the length of the rifle with the silencer fitted would mean that it was too long for Sheila to both place the gun under her chin and simultaneously reach the trigger. He had to unscrew the silencer, try to wipe it clean and place it back into the gun cupboard. A mistake that ultimately lead to him being unmasked.
Abs, Bamber would have had little problem carrying this out. His quarry were a 61 year old man, 2 slightly built women and 2 small children. Hardly a difficult job for a strapping, very fit 25 year old man in the prime of his life armed with a loaded rifle.
The murders would have taken no longer than 10-15 minutes to carry out and perhaps another 10 minutes to set the scene before he made good his escape on his mother's bicycle. This meant that Bamber was probably in and out of the house in less than half an hour.
Starryian..

Offline abs

Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2012, 09:04:43 PM »
It is only the logistic part of it I cna´t see happening - not the psychological. People do horrible things.
I just have a very hard time SEEING it - and as always, I have this question, where was Sheila? Just waiting to be murdered?

Offline starryian

Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2012, 09:21:38 PM »
It is only the logistic part of it I cna´t see happening - not the psychological. People do horrible things.
I just have a very hard time SEEING it - and as always, I have this question, where was Sheila? Just waiting to be murdered?
That is a very good point Abs. Personally I believe Sheila was rather sleepy and subdued that night (as witnessed by a phonecall received by June later that evening) . There were traces of marijuana found it her system and it is highly probable that she was still under it's affects during the murders. I also believe Bamber may have either tricked her or coerced her to follow him to their parents bedroom. He may have threatened her with harming the twins - but this is pure speculation. Whatever it was, was enough to get her in to that bedroom where she was shot.
One puzzling aspect of the case is this; Sheila's bed did not appear to have been slept in. Some of the photographs of the crime scene clearly show her bed, made and unslept in. However, it may be down to Bamber making her bed after he had murdered the family in order to make it appear that Sheila had been up all night in a psychotic state bent on murder? Who knows?
Starryian..

Offline Andrea

Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2012, 09:24:05 PM »
Hmm good post, Ian.

As abs has said only Bamber himself knows what happened that night. Unlikely to get the truth from him.

Offline starryian

Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2012, 09:24:40 PM »
Yet again the voice of common sense and sanity from starryian. Firstly, may I say that I have occasionally posted as a guest on this forum rather then a member to try and reduce the risk of being " outed" by the likes of the investigative Colleen ! I have been interested in this case since the day of the tragedy because I am married to a member of the extended family. We were incredulous that Sheila could have possibly been the perpetrator whilst not at that stage in any way suspecting Jeremy. With respect to ABS who seems to be a perfectly nice person and entitled to express her perspective, I do think that you are theorising without factual understanding of the family dynamics. Yes, in theory abrupt withdrawal of anti psychotics liuke haloperidol ( a fairly nasty old fashioned drug ) might precipitate psychotic crises in some individuals. However, I have very reliable information from two members of the family who I have known for some thirty years and who spoke individually to Sheila during the evening prior to the murders that she was in in an optimistic, calm and positive mental state during the evening prior to the murders. Hardly the impending psychiatric catastrophe portrayed as a consequence of haloperidol reduction.

Sheila's mental illness has been blown up out of all proportion from a schizoaffective disorder into full blown paranoid schizophrenia. Yes, she may have struggled bringing up twins. Who would not ? I have heard that for a time they had daytime care from someone outside the family but NOT formal fostering which has legal meaning within UK family law. You have to ask who has generated this picture of significant schizophrenia ( Bamber ? )
Fundamentally, his whole case rests on the premise that his adopted sister committed these murders.

With respect, ABS, and I appreciate that you are not one of the posters on either forum who has indulged in mud slinging, I think that your theorising about some aspects of this case is based on opinion rather then evidence. You are entitled to these beliefs and I feel that they are sincerely held but please consider how unlikely it is that Sheila could have slaughtered her family . She adored her twins, she adored her father and maybe she had an uncomfortable relationship with her kind, caring mother who had been brought up with firm moral values and a strong belief in Christianity.

Joanne asked about the role of others in helping look after the twins. To the best of my knowledge, I have heard that their father Colin Caffell and his father were greatly involved and that it was very important to Sheila that this was the case.     
Thanks Dillion. Another excellent post  8@??)(
Starryian..

Offline Andrea

Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2012, 09:27:41 PM »
Yes Dillon, why dont you register? With your knowledge of the family, your input would be appreciated.

Offline Joanne

Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2012, 09:30:21 PM »
I asked the questions because I get the guist that Sheila's illness was blown out of proportion and I wondered if there were enough willing family members to help Sheila out with the boys when she was having an episode, which it does look like to me, so I'm not convinced the faster care conversation happened, well not as Jeremy made out. They might have mentioned someone helping Sheila out if they could see the signs of an episode coming on if there were any indications.

Offline Andrea

Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2012, 09:34:48 PM »
I dont think any such conversation took place either Joanne. It was all part of Bambers plan to implicate his sister. As you know we only have his word for it. As he himself said, all the witnessess are dead.

Offline abs

Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2012, 09:49:04 PM »
It is only the logistic part of it I cna´t see happening - not the psychological. People do horrible things.
I just have a very hard time SEEING it - and as always, I have this question, where was Sheila? Just waiting to be murdered?
That is a very good point Abs. Personally I believe Sheila was rather sleepy and subdued that night (as witnessed by a phonecall received by June later that evening) . There were traces of marijuana found it her system and it is highly probable that she was still under it's affects during the murders. I also believe Bamber may have either tricked her or coerced her to follow him to their parents bedroom. He may have threatened her with harming the twins - but this is pure speculation. Whatever it was, was enough to get her in to that bedroom where she was shot.
One puzzling aspect of the case is this; Sheila's bed did not appear to have been slept in. Some of the photographs of the crime scene clearly show her bed, made and unslept in. However, it may be down to Bamber making her bed after he had murdered the family in order to make it appear that Sheila had been up all night in a psychotic state bent on murder? Who knows?

So many ifs and maybes in this case. Guess that is the reason people are still discussing it.
And again, I can´t wrap my head around why Jeremy would have dragged Sheila into June and Ralph´s bedroom to stage a suicide there. That just makes no sense.
I think Sheila´s bed looks like she had laid on top of the covers - there is an indentation in the pillow.

P.S. If he dragged her into the bedroom it would have had to be at gunpoint. He must have had blood on him, and there is no sign of Sheila having been wrestled, no marks, no blood other than from her wound.
How was he positioned to shoot her at that odd angle?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 09:55:52 PM by abs »

Offline starryian

Re: The Lies of Jeremy Bamber
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2012, 10:24:12 PM »
It is only the logistic part of it I cna´t see happening - not the psychological. People do horrible things.
I just have a very hard time SEEING it - and as always, I have this question, where was Sheila? Just waiting to be murdered?
That is a very good point Abs. Personally I believe Sheila was rather sleepy and subdued that night (as witnessed by a phonecall received by June later that evening) . There were traces of marijuana found it her system and it is highly probable that she was still under it's affects during the murders. I also believe Bamber may have either tricked her or coerced her to follow him to their parents bedroom. He may have threatened her with harming the twins - but this is pure speculation. Whatever it was, was enough to get her in to that bedroom where she was shot.
One puzzling aspect of the case is this; Sheila's bed did not appear to have been slept in. Some of the photographs of the crime scene clearly show her bed, made and unslept in. However, it may be down to Bamber making her bed after he had murdered the family in order to make it appear that Sheila had been up all night in a psychotic state bent on murder? Who knows?

So many ifs and maybes in this case. Guess that is the reason people are still discussing it.
And again, I can´t wrap my head around why Jeremy would have dragged Sheila into June and Ralph´s bedroom to stage a suicide there. That just makes no sense.
I think Sheila´s bed looks like she had laid on top of the covers - there is an indentation in the pillow.

P.S. If he dragged her into the bedroom it would have had to be at gunpoint. He must have had blood on him, and there is no sign of Sheila having been wrestled, no marks, no blood other than from her wound.
How was he positioned to shoot her at that odd angle?
Abs, I believe that Sheila was not dragged into the bedroom but was either coerced or threatened.
It makes every sense from Bamber's point of view for Sheila to be in that bedroom. At first glance it would have been unmistakable who had committed the massacre to the police who discovered it. I also believe as David Boutflour has also suggested that Bamber probably asked Sheila to pray with him in the bedroom. There were two reasons why this has some credence. Firstly Sheila was a very religious lady and she took it seriously. Secondly the act of preying would have meant that Sheila would have 1. had to have a bible 2. sit on the floor prostrate and close her eyes. It was at this point I believe Bamber shot Sheila for the first time by putting the gun under her chin and pulling the trigger. She fell backwards from a sitting or semi-reclined position her head striking against a bedside cabinet causing her head to turn at a slight angle. However, he noticed that Sheila was still breathing. He then pulled her body into a straighter position by pulling her by her ankles (this is backed up by evidence by the postion her nightdress was found in. It was concertined at the back underneath her body indicating that she had been pulled in a downward angle) He then placed the gun under her chin once more and shot her for a second time - the shot was instantly fatal.
Starryian..