Author Topic: What was the point of the arguido questions asked of Kate and Gerry McCann?  (Read 2815 times)

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Offline Brietta

IMO the PJ only needed enough suspicion to make someone an arguido so they could ask more incriminating questions which were not an option as witnesses. They were made arguidos to protect themselves. There was no misunderstanding of the evidence there was enough suspicion to change their status IMO.

They were made arguidos on the assumption the dog indications were proof of cadaver ... the forensics did not back that up ... therefore they were made arguidos on a false premise.

The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Davel

IMO the PJ only needed enough suspicion to make someone an arguido so they could ask more incriminating questions which were not an option as witnesses. They were made arguidos to protect themselves. There was no misunderstanding of the evidence there was enough suspicion to change their status IMO.

The archiving report says, all the evidence used  to make them arguido was later found not to be confirmed.. Or words to that effect
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 04:47:59 PM by Davel »
UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED ALL POSTS ARE MY OPINION

Offline Brietta

IMO the PJ only needed enough suspicion to make someone an arguido so they could ask more incriminating questions which were not an option as witnesses. They were made arguidos to protect themselves. There was no misunderstanding of the evidence there was enough suspicion to change their status IMO.

In my opinion they were made arguidos to add more pressure on a fragile Kate to encourage total collapse and a false confession.

No going back after that is there if what happened to Leonor Cipriano is anything to go by.

Case 'solved' ... missing child written off ... RESULT!!

In my opinion engendering that kind of suspicion on grieving parents anxious only to find their daughter ... was a particularly monstrous tactic to employ.



Police 'rushed Madeleine McCann case'
A new penal code was introduced on Sep 15

By Fiona Govan in Praia da Luz5:01PM GMT 05 Dec 2007

Madeleine McCann’s parents might have been spared the anguish of being named suspects over her disappearance if Portuguese police had not rushed their case through before a change in the law, it has been claimed.

Kate and Gerry McCann were made arguidos - formal suspects - just eight days before new legal measures were introduced which would have required firmer evidence against them.

The couple’s Portuguese lawyer has claimed that detectives may have deliberately fast-tracked the investigation to ensure they were put in the frame.

Investigators named the McCanns, both 39, as arguidos on September 7 after allegedly finding microscopic traces of blood in their holiday apartment and "bodily fluids" they thought could have belonged to Madeleine in the boot of their hire car.

Carlos Pinto de Abreu, a Portuguese lawyer on the McCanns’ defence team, said that under Portugal’s new penal code, police must have more than just suspicions to make somebody an arguido.

"On September 15 a new procedural penal code was introduced making it necessary for there to be evidence against the citizen before they could be made an arguido.

"Before this date it wasn’t necessary. You could be made an arguido without actual evidence against you," he said.

"Maybe that is why the investigation took the turn it did - why they were named arguidos eight days before the new laws came in," said Mr Pinto de Abreu.

His comments followed those of Fernando Jose Pinto Monteiro, Portugal’s Attorney General, who recently admitted the McCanns may not have been made suspects under the new laws.

"At the time when the McCanns were made 'arguidos' the law did not demand justified suspicions. I do not know if they would be (arguidos) in light of the new Code," he said in an interview with the Portuguese magazine Visao.

Clarence Mitchell, the official spokesman of the McCanns, said he hoped the introduction of the new law would work in their favour.

"Being declared arguidos almost three months ago caused the McCanns’ immense anguish and continues to do so," he said.

"To think they could have been saved that under a law introduced only days later makes a mockery of the case against them.

"They are entirely innocent victims of a horrible crime that has taken away their daughter and they want to be cleared as soon as possible so the focus can return to finding Madeleine.

"If it is true that changes to the law would have meant that they would not have been made arguidos that’s all the more reason for their status to be dropped now.

"Regardless of any changes in the law they should be eliminated forthwith from the inquiry."

Portuguese police were told last week that forensic results requested from Birmingham’s Forensic Science Service had so far proved "inconclusive".

They plan to travel to Britain next week to re-interview the McCanns and the seven friends who dined with them at the Tapas restaurant on the night of May 3, when Madeleine went missing from the holiday apartment in Praia da Luz.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1571699/Police-rushed-Madeleine-McCann-case.html
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Faithlilly

They were made arguidos on the assumption the dog indications were proof of cadaver ... the forensics did not back that up ... therefore they were made arguidos on a false premise.

Not false just not proved. There are many scenarios where Madeleine could have died in the apartment without their being any corrobarating forensics.
Moral Guilt
Detractors of the work of our British Police in bringing criminals to justice generally ignore the important distinction between moral proof and legal evidence of guilt. In not a few cases that are popularly classed with 'unsolved mysteries of crime,' the offender is known, but evidence is wanting. If, for example, in- a recent murder case of special notoriety and interest,* certain human remains had not been found in a cellar, a great crime would have been catalogued among `Police failures'; and yet, even without the evidence which sent the murderer to the gallows, the moral proof of his guilt would have been full and clear.
Robert Anderson

Offline Davel

Not false just not proved. There are many scenarios where Madeleine could have died in the apartment without their being any corrobarating forensics.

But no evidence of her death

The enemy to knowledge is not ignorance but the presumption  of knowledge ...again springs to mind
UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED ALL POSTS ARE MY OPINION

Offline Robittybob1

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"GA: Up until being declared an arguido, Kate, at the request of her lawyer, co-operated. When questions became of a nature that could incriminate her, she was made an arguido, her rights and duties were read out to her in English and thereafter she opted for the right to remain silent."


Oh this is interesting in bold. incriminating herself?  Do we know what THOSE questions were? and they could have been different from Gerry. The PJ must have picked up on something to ask Kate possibly incriminating questions.
OK what I can't make out is they are both made arguidos but only Kate is asked the questions that could be incriminating herself.  Did they put the focus on the wrong person?  This business about Kate being in prison and Gerry carrying on working even if it was a misunderstanding something must have been said along those lines. IMO.
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Offline Davel

OK what I can't make out is they are both made arguidos but only Kate is asked the questions that could be incriminating herself.  Did they put the focus on the wrong person?  Thus business about Kate being in prison and Gerry carrying on working even if it was a misunderstanding something must have been said along those lines. IMO.

I would say both we're asked questions  that could be self incriminating... The whole point is that there, are very good reasons why innocent people should not answer questions in these, situations
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Offline Robittybob1

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What has that got to do with any pertinent fact?

Either give a cite that Kate &/or Gerry self-declared themselves as arguidos, or give it a rest.

You appear to be deflecting from the point of the thread, and that point is interesting.
From Kate's statement it appears the question became incriminating, she stopped answering them, they made her an arguido.  So what order is that?  They didn't make her an arguido and then asked her simple questions which she answered and she refused to answer them when they became too hard.
What are you doing to find Madeleine?
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Offline Robittybob1

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No amaral said Kate answerred all witness questions on the adice of her lawyer but did not answer  the srguido questions..
Kate told us, she took her lawyers, advice on the arguido questions... So he's back to front
Where are the actual words?  Where are the quotes - we need them side by side. IMO.
What are you doing to find Madeleine?
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Offline Davel

From Kate's statement it appears the question became incriminating, she stopped answering them, they made her an arguido.  So what order is that?  They didn't make her an arguido and then asked her simple questions which she answered and she refused to answer them when they became too hard.

I'm afraid you are, wrong rob... Kate, answered all the, questions put to her as, a, witness..
As I recall the, atmosphere  changed once the dogs alerted.  Kate, was, advised it was possible she could be, arrested and advised not to answer any questions... The pj then made her an arguido
UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED ALL POSTS ARE MY OPINION

Offline Davel

Where are the actual words?  Where are the quotes - we need them side by side. IMO.

It's, all in Kate's, book and been posted several times
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Offline Robittybob1

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They were made arguidos on the assumption the dog indications were proof of cadaver ... the forensics did not back that up ... therefore they were made arguidos on a false premise.
Suspicions can be right or wrong.  But I do accept they had suspicions against Kate  even if the forensic evidence was inconclusive.
They can always say there were inconsistencies in their statements.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 06:46:44 PM by Robittybob1 »
What are you doing to find Madeleine?
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Offline ShiningInLuz

In my opinion they were made arguidos to add more pressure on a fragile Kate to encourage total collapse and a false confession.

No going back after that is there if what happened to Leonor Cipriano is anything to go by.

Case 'solved' ... missing child written off ... RESULT!!

In my opinion engendering that kind of suspicion on grieving parents anxious only to find their daughter ... was a particularly monstrous tactic to employ.



Police 'rushed Madeleine McCann case'
A new penal code was introduced on Sep 15

By Fiona Govan in Praia da Luz5:01PM GMT 05 Dec 2007

Madeleine McCann’s parents might have been spared the anguish of being named suspects over her disappearance if Portuguese police had not rushed their case through before a change in the law, it has been claimed.

Kate and Gerry McCann were made arguidos - formal suspects - just eight days before new legal measures were introduced which would have required firmer evidence against them.

The couple’s Portuguese lawyer has claimed that detectives may have deliberately fast-tracked the investigation to ensure they were put in the frame.

Investigators named the McCanns, both 39, as arguidos on September 7 after allegedly finding microscopic traces of blood in their holiday apartment and "bodily fluids" they thought could have belonged to Madeleine in the boot of their hire car.

Carlos Pinto de Abreu, a Portuguese lawyer on the McCanns’ defence team, said that under Portugal’s new penal code, police must have more than just suspicions to make somebody an arguido.

"On September 15 a new procedural penal code was introduced making it necessary for there to be evidence against the citizen before they could be made an arguido.

"Before this date it wasn’t necessary. You could be made an arguido without actual evidence against you," he said.

"Maybe that is why the investigation took the turn it did - why they were named arguidos eight days before the new laws came in," said Mr Pinto de Abreu.

His comments followed those of Fernando Jose Pinto Monteiro, Portugal’s Attorney General, who recently admitted the McCanns may not have been made suspects under the new laws.

"At the time when the McCanns were made 'arguidos' the law did not demand justified suspicions. I do not know if they would be (arguidos) in light of the new Code," he said in an interview with the Portuguese magazine Visao.

Clarence Mitchell, the official spokesman of the McCanns, said he hoped the introduction of the new law would work in their favour.

"Being declared arguidos almost three months ago caused the McCanns’ immense anguish and continues to do so," he said.

"To think they could have been saved that under a law introduced only days later makes a mockery of the case against them.

"They are entirely innocent victims of a horrible crime that has taken away their daughter and they want to be cleared as soon as possible so the focus can return to finding Madeleine.

"If it is true that changes to the law would have meant that they would not have been made arguidos that’s all the more reason for their status to be dropped now.

"Regardless of any changes in the law they should be eliminated forthwith from the inquiry."

Portuguese police were told last week that forensic results requested from Birmingham’s Forensic Science Service had so far proved "inconclusive".

They plan to travel to Britain next week to re-interview the McCanns and the seven friends who dined with them at the Tapas restaurant on the night of May 3, when Madeleine went missing from the holiday apartment in Praia da Luz.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1571699/Police-rushed-Madeleine-McCann-case.html
Here we go again.  I dare say I will have to dig it out of Kate's book again.  I must remember to bookmark the pages to make it easier next time round.

The McCanns stated they were leaving Portugal.  Leaving before any change in the law.

The PJ opted to interview the McCanns, before they left Portugal.

Based on what they had, that required making the McCanns arguidos.

Who knows what would have happened if the McCanns had stayed.  Not Fiona Govan.  And judging by the article, not Carlos Pinto de Abreu.
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Offline Davel

Here we go again.  I dare say I will have to dig it out of Kate's book again.  I must remember to bookmark the pages to make it easier next time round.

The McCanns stated they were leaving Portugal.  Leaving before any change in the law.

The PJ opted to interview the McCanns, before they left Portugal.

Based on what they had, that required making the McCanns arguidos.

Who knows what would have happened if the McCanns had stayed.  Not Fiona Govan.  And judging by the article, not Carlos Pinto de Abreu.

based on what they had...and none of what they had was confirmed...had they stayed no one would know w aht might have happened...thats why they very sensibly left...imo
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Questioning of the Suspect or Arguido Pre-Trial

It is mandatory to question a person whenever there is a founded suspicion that he/she has committed a crime; however since the purpose of questioning is precisely to determine whether or not a crime has been committed and who is the perpetrator the questioning may be ordered with a lesser degree of suspicion. This measure may be executed by a judge the PP or the criminal police. The defence lawyer must be informed of the time and place of the questioning but the lawyers presence is not mandatory unless the arguido is in custodial detention. The arguido has the right to remain silent and any declaration that he/she makes during the preliminary phases of the procedure has very limited evidentiary value.

"Toward a Prosecutor for the European Union Volume 1: A Comparative Analysis  page 554"
"The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there"..... "The Go Between" by L.P.Hartley