UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Robittybob1 on May 26, 2017, 09:26:33 AM
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Who was the mystery couple? They have never come forward, yet someone saw them.
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Who was the mystery couple? They have never come forward, yet someone saw them.
A good question and just like Smithman raise many other questions. Why would this couple not come forward?
Were they afraid of being implicated or of the publicity? Were they actually involved in removing Madeleine?
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How is it known that they haven't been traced in the investigation by SY or the PJ,Redwood all but ruled out Tannerman by him supposedly coming forward with out a single bit of news regarding his ID.
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There has been a lot of confusion between what was seen by the Moyes and this couple seen by someone entering the apartment on the Wednesday night.
What I have discovered that is so interesting but not quite on topic (but I believe very much on topic if we knew the whole truth).
The Moyes were in bed at 11:30 when a friend of the McCanns woke them up and told them about Madeleine going missing. But in the radio interview (below) she made a mistake in that she let out that it was a woman who woke her up whereas everyone up till now has been thinking it was Gerry or David.
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/radio-stoke-speak-to-susan-moyes/ onthat page is the link to Mrs Moyes speaking. I'm certain she says "she" referring to the person who wakes her up. For this person is the one who contacts the Media in the UK, IMO based on the story and her confession.
Whereas Gerry and David seem to deny contacting the media.
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How is it known that they haven't been traced in the investigation by SY or the PJ,Redwood all but ruled out Tannerman by him supposedly coming forward with out a single bit of news regarding his ID.
If this couple were seen on Wednesday night, it certainly has not been divulged who it was doing this observation, but from a thorough investigation (my own) there is only one person who that could be yet she denies it in her statement. So how could it be known unless someone has divulged that it happened. I find this mightily confusing but it can possibly mean that both the observer and the observed are in some way compromised.
I suppose that could be done through a anonymous call to Crime-stoppers, where the identity of the witness has to be kept confidential but not the information.
Does any of this make sense?
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What is the chance that it is the same person that called the Moyes wanting to use their computer to get in contact with the media, is the same person who saw the mystery couple on the Wednesday night?
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So who was a female friend of the McCanns that had contacts in the UK media? You know I read that the other day somewhere and I'll try and find it again. There was one female person who had contacts in the media according to what I read, does anyone know this information.
"According to Paul, a retired accountant, it was a friend of the family informing them that a young girl had been taken. The friend asked if they'd contact the media to get the word out, and the couple rushed down to help with the search." http://www.ladbible.com/more/viral-witnesses-describe-the-mccanns-reactions-to-maddies-disappearance-20170503
It doesn't say if they did or didn't contact the media.
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So who was a female friend of the McCanns that had contacts in the UK media? You know I read that the other day somewhere and I'll try and find it again. There was one female person who had contacts in the media according to what I read, does anyone know this information.
"According to Paul, a retired accountant, it was a friend of the family informing them that a young girl had been taken. The friend asked if they'd contact the media to get the word out, and the couple rushed down to help with the search." http://www.ladbible.com/more/viral-witnesses-describe-the-mccanns-reactions-to-maddies-disappearance-20170503
It doesn't say if they did or didn't contact the media.
I have always found that a bit strange. You are on holiday in Portugal and your child goes missing. Why on earth would you immediately want to contact the media in LONDON?
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I have always found that a bit strange. You are on holiday in Portugal and your child goes missing. Why on earth would you immediately want to contact the media in LONDON?
Mitchell in the Panorama special also confirms the media were being alerted by midnight, 1am
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This was it Russell's rogatory "As for the media I think Rachael called a friend who works at the BBC. "
Definitely there "I am not sure who informed the authorities or media of Madeleine’s disappearance but Gerry may have informed the authorities along with Matt. As for the media I think Rachael called a friend who works at the BBC.
I loathe the media even more so now, I have a very low opinion of them Dave was also seen keen to make use of the media and think that he may have constructed an email- but I am not sure whether that was actually sent. I know that there were attempts to contact the British Consulate.
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I have always found that a bit strange. You are on holiday in Portugal and your child goes missing. Why on earth would you immediately want to contact the media in LONDON?
Overcomes a language barrier. "BBC" Is Crimewatch a BBC program? Yes it is. This in itself could be significant. There was someone there at PDL who worked for the BBC.
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The most important (missing) witness did not mention to her parents that people had entered the apartment the previous night to comfort her & Sean while they cried..
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The most important (missing) witness did not mention to her parents that people had entered the apartment the previous night to comfort her & Sean while they cried..
It could have been implied though - Why didn't you come? is the same question as "Why did someone else come instead?"
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Who was the mystery couple? They have never come forward, yet someone saw them.
Which mystery couple?
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It could have been implied though - Why didn't you come? is the same question as "Why did someone else come instead?"
How would that "someone else" have known that the children were unattended unless Madeleine had ventured outside?
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I have always found that a bit strange. You are on holiday in Portugal and your child goes missing. Why on earth would you immediately want to contact the media in LONDON?
Why do you state London?
Phone calls or emails can reach most parts of the world these days.
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Why do you state London?
Phone calls or emails can reach most parts of the world these days.
Isn't that where the BBC and Sky News have their headquarters?
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Isn't that where the BBC and Sky News have their headquarters?
The BBC chap that got wind of it via whoever it was (Rachel?) ringing his wife was in Scotland covering the election.
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Overcomes a language barrier. "BBC" Is Crimewatch a BBC program? Yes it is. This in itself could be significant. There was someone there at PDL who worked for the BBC.
There was? That doesn't ring any bells.
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The BBC chap that got wind of it via whoever it was (Rachel?) ringing his wife was in Scotland covering the election.
In which labour did badly...
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How would that "someone else" have known that the children were unattended unless Madeleine had ventured outside?
After Tuesday night with Madeleine crying for an hour and a quarter I think a few more people were aware that the McCann kids were on their own. Didn't Mrs Fenn ring Silvia Batista after that episode?
You also asked about the mystery couple - you'll remember them.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
"Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared"
The interesting thing is that we know that they had been observed. Who could have seen this?
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There was? That doesn't ring any bells.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
"During the evening of Wednesday 31 October 2007, Jeremy and Bridget were visited at their home address by DC 1756 and DC 4356 from the Leicestershire Op Task team. This visit was organized to attempt to gain background information in relation to the McCann's and members of their group whilst on holiday in the Prai Da Luz resort.
Contact was made as result of their previous interaction with the OP Task Team and their willingness to discuss their relationship with the group.
Both Jeremy and Bridget work within the television production industry producing documentary programmes. Bridget previously worked alongside the Police on the Crime Watch television programme and was aware of the importance for the need of collating background information.
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
"During the evening of Wednesday 31 October 2007, Jeremy and Bridget were visited at their home address by DC 1756 and DC 4356 from the Leicestershire Op Task team. This visit was organized to attempt to gain background information in relation to the McCann's and members of their group whilst on holiday in the Prai Da Luz resort.
Contact was made as result of their previous interaction with the OP Task Team and their willingness to discuss their relationship with the group.
Both Jeremy and Bridget work within the television production industry producing documentary programmes. Bridget previously worked alongside the Police on the Crime Watch television programme and was aware of the importance for the need of collating background information.
Well done, Rob, I'd forgotten about Bridget. But she doesn't seem to have had any direct contact with them prior to the disappearance.
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After Tuesday night with Madeleine crying for an hour and a quarter I think a few more people were aware that the McCann kids were on their own. Didn't Mrs Fenn ring Silvia Batista after that episode?
You also asked about the mystery couple - you'll remember them.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
"Mystery couple seen going into McCanns’ flat on night before sobbing Madeleine disappeared"
The interesting thing is that we know that they had been observed. Who could have seen this?
The article doesn't actually develop anything about this so-called mystery couple seen going into 5A, unless I've missed something.
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Well done, Rob, I'd forgotten about Bridget. But she doesn't seem to have had any direct contact with them prior to the disappearance.
I always get confused with pronouns so are you saying "But [Bridget] doesn't seem to have had any direct contact with [the McCanns] prior to the disappearance"?
This is one reference to the interaction between the Tapas 9 and the Wilkins couple. "Jeremy and Bridget had visited the Tapas bar on several occasions during which they noticed the group had reserved a table for every night of their holiday. This appeared to be contrary to the set down procedure of not booking a table any further than three days ahead. The group appeared boisterous but good natured with Gerry being the central figure. His gregarious character making him appear to be the central figure in the group and almost holding court. However they did notice that David Payne was equally gregarious and almost playing along with, if not up to, Gerry.
Jeremy and Bridget became aware that although the McCanns had taken up the use of the creche facility during the day, they had not done so for the evening hours and had left the children in the apartment but were checking on them regularly and that other members of the group appeared to be doing the same.
They expressed surprise over this as the McCanns apartment was set in a location that appeared vulnerable. They were aware that the apartment was a corner building and with easy access from the road. The apartments were not very secure and entry could easily be gained." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
How did they get to know so much?
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I always get confused with pronouns so are you saying "But [Bridget] doesn't seem to have had any direct contact with [the McCanns] prior to the disappearance"?
This is one reference to the interaction between the Tapas 9 and the Wilkins couple. "Jeremy and Bridget had visited the Tapas bar on several occasions during which they noticed the group had reserved a table for every night of their holiday. This appeared to be contrary to the set down procedure of not booking a table any further than three days ahead. The group appeared boisterous but good natured with Gerry being the central figure. His gregarious character making him appear to be the central figure in the group and almost holding court. However they did notice that David Payne was equally gregarious and almost playing along with, if not up to, Gerry.
Jeremy and Bridget became aware that although the McCanns had taken up the use of the creche facility during the day, they had not done so for the evening hours and had left the children in the apartment but were checking on them regularly and that other members of the group appeared to be doing the same.
They expressed surprise over this as the McCanns apartment was set in a location that appeared vulnerable. They were aware that the apartment was a corner building and with easy access from the road. The apartments were not very secure and entry could easily be gained." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
Yes, sorry. I meant "[Bridget] doesn't seem to have had any direct contact with [the McCanns] prior to the disappearance".
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I have always found that a bit strange. You are on holiday in Portugal and your child goes missing. Why on earth would you immediately want to contact the media in LONDON?
Attention seeking? big new story... child abducted via .... jemmied window parents sitting like in the garden ...
It was being claimed by the parents they wanted something done because the Police on Portugal were doing 'nothing' according to sisters .aunties and grandparents... Yeah no one was searching for the little girl apparently. and they wonder why many people in PDL don't like them... pfft
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Yes, sorry. I meant "[Bridget] doesn't seem to have had any direct contact with [the McCanns] prior to the disappearance".
The are better descriptions of the interaction, but they might not be official statements.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
In the evenings, babysitting at the resort was a dilemma. "Sit-in" babysitters were available but were expensive and in demand, and Mark Warner blurb advised us to book well in advance. The other option was the babysitting service at the kiddie club, which was a 10-minute walk from the apartment. The children would watch a cartoon together and then be put to bed. You would then wake them, carry them back and put them to bed again in the apartment. After taking our children to dinner a couple of times, we decided on the Wednesday night to try the service at the club.
We had booked a table for two at Tapas and were placed next to the Doctors' regular table. One by one, they started to arrive. The men came first. Gerry McCann started chatting across to Jes about tennis. Gerry was outgoing, a wisecracker, but considerate and kind, and he invited us to join them. We discussed the children. He told us they were leaving theirs sleeping in the apartments. While they chatted on, I ruminated on the pros and cons of this. I admired them, in a way, for not being paranoid parents, but I decided that our apartment was too far off even to contemplate it. Our baby was too young and I would worry about them waking up.
My phone rang as our food arrived; our baby had woken up. I walked the round trip to collect him from the kiddie club, then back to the restaurant. He kept crying and eventually we left our meal unfinished and walked back again to the club to fetch our sleeping daughter. Jes carried her home in a blanket. The next night we stayed in. It was Thursday, May 3.
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Maybe someone else in the Tapas that night also overheard the conversation about the child checks.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
In the evenings, babysitting at the resort was a dilemma. "Sit-in" babysitters were available but were expensive and in demand, and Mark Warner blurb advised us to book well in advance. The other option was the babysitting service at the kiddie club, which was a 10-minute walk from the apartment. The children would watch a cartoon together and then be put to bed. You would then wake them, carry them back and put them to bed again in the apartment. After taking our children to dinner a couple of times, we decided on the Wednesday night to try the service at the club.
We had booked a table for two at Tapas and were placed next to the Doctors' regular table. One by one, they started to arrive. The men came first. Gerry McCann started chatting across to Jes about tennis. Gerry was outgoing, a wisecracker, but considerate and kind, and he invited us to join them. We discussed the children. He told us they were leaving theirs sleeping in the apartments. While they chatted on, I ruminated on the [ censored word ] and cons of this. I admired them, in a way, for not being paranoid parents, but I decided that our apartment was too far off even to contemplate it. Our baby was too young and I would worry about them waking up.
My phone rang as our food arrived; our baby had woken up. I walked the round trip to collect him from the kiddie club, then back to the restaurant. He kept crying and eventually we left our meal unfinished and walked back again to the club to fetch our sleeping daughter. Jes carried her home in a blanket. The next night we stayed in. It was Thursday, May 3.
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Maybe someone else in the Tapas that night also overheard the conversation about the child checks.
She makes it sound like it wasn't much of a good night out.
"The next night we stayed in." But that is not technically true for Jez went walkabout from around 8:30 until 9:30. While Jez is out Bridget has no one to confirm her alibi. Could she have snuck out of the apartment for a moment or two? She was obviously contemplating it IMO, for when you say "I decided that our apartment was too far off even to contemplate it. Our baby was too young and I would worry about them waking up", you have contemplated it.
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The Wilkins/O'Donnell table was booked for 7:30. According to her husband Gerry and his friend arrived at 8:15 and they chatted about childcare, jobs and where Kate was (putting the kids to bed) until around 8:30. Then the call came that their son was crying;
My partner left first and I followed shortly afterwards. The amount of time I spent with Jerry was about fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minutes we remained in the restaurant. By the time we left, Jerry was with about seven other people. I picked up my daughter from the creche and then returned to the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS.htm
I think Bridget was mistaken about the food arriving just as she received the call from the creche. Was it really an hour before they got any? If she returned to the restaurant as she says, it would have been at 8:50 because she says it was a twenty minute walk to the night creche;
The other option was the babysitting service at the kiddie club, which was a 10-minute walk from the apartment
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
No mention of an unfinished meal in Jez's statement, or of Bridget returning to the restaurant with their son who 'kept crying' in the restaurant as Bridget put it.
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In that article Bridget just about confirms it was Rachael who contacts the media. "The next morning, we made our way to breakfast and met one of the Doctors, the one who had come round in the night. His young daughter looked up at us from her pushchair. There was no news. They had called Sky television - they didn't know what else to do. He turned away and I could see he was going to weep."
It also confirms a closer connection between Jez and Bridget with Matt and Rachael, greater than what Matt cared to admit in his rogatory.
"4078 'What about in the evenings when you were going back to check on Grace, do you recall some of the other people around''
Reply 'No, there'd be rarely, rarely anybody about, maybe an occasional one person. Erm, tut, was he, was it the chap, whose name I can't remember, he had a child who was willing to be part of, or was being suggested for the interview, Jeremy, Jeremy or somebody''
00.43.49 4078 'Yeah'.
Reply 'Who had a child and I think I'd seen him around because I think their child didn't sleep particularly well and he may have been pushing or he might have been collecting from cr'he, but what day or what time, I don't really remember'.
4078 'How did you come to know Jeremy''
Reply 'It was a couple that we spoke to while we were on, Jeremy I think I spoke to on the coach, either on the coach or we already said something, you know, something when we were checking in, sort of that'd have been four o'clock in the morning or whenever it was, and there was, so I think I spoke to him on the coach or on the plane on the way over, definitely on the coach or on the plane on the way over, and sort of said hi every now and again, but didn't, erm, you know anything more than that really'.
4078 'And did you speak to him during the holiday''
Reply 'Yeah, just on odd occasions'."
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Do Jez and Bridget mention joining the doctors at the Tapas in their statements?
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That article is written "Bridget O'Donnell
Friday 14 December 2007 11.54 GMT" yet the rogatory statement was on the 08 APRIL 2008 so they should at least mention this meeting with the Tapas group prior to Madeleine going missing in their rogatory statement but I don't think they do.
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That article is written "Bridget O'Donnell
Friday 14 December 2007 11.54 GMT" yet the rogatory statement was on the 08 APRIL 2008 so they should at least mention this meeting with the Tapas group prior to Madeleine going missing in their rogatory statement but I don't think they do.
The rogatory interview was to answer a specific set of further questions set by the PJ.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MCCANNS-WANTED.htm#mw3089
Questions for Jeremy Wilkins:
When did you meet Gerald McCann on Thursday 03 May?
Where exactly were you standing? Did you see where Gerald had been?
Did you see him come out of his apartment?
Did you notice anything unusual?
What did you talk about? Did he mention anything about checking the children?
How long did you speak for? Are you sure about the time?
Did you see anyone else whilst you were talking? If so who and where?
Did you see Jane Tanner?
From where you were standing, talking to Gerald, was it possible to see the road at the top of the hill - Rua Dr Francisco Gentil?
Could someone have walked across this junction travelling west to east carrying a child without you seeing him?
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I saw another question as well.
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There was No Mystery Couple. No couple at all. This just doesn't make sense.
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The rogatory interview was to answer a specific set of further questions set by the PJ.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MCCANNS-WANTED.htm#mw3089
Questions for Jeremy Wilkins:
When did you meet Gerald McCann on Thursday 03 May?
Where exactly were you standing? Did you see where Gerald had been?
Did you see him come out of his apartment?
Did you notice anything unusual?
What did you talk about? Did he mention anything about checking the children?
How long did you speak for? Are you sure about the time?
Did you see anyone else whilst you were talking? If so who and where?
Did you see Jane Tanner?
From where you were standing, talking to Gerald, was it possible to see the road at the top of the hill - Rua Dr Francisco Gentil?
Could someone have walked across this junction travelling west to east carrying a child without you seeing him?
There was another question asked Q. Relative to the encounters between the 29th of April and the 3rd of May;
And they don't mention going to the Tapas and meeting Gerry in the rogatory.
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It is covered in a previous statement to some degree. "That evening myself and my partner attended the 'Tapas' restaurant which is part of the hotel complex at the swimming pool. We sat down to eat at 7:30 pm. After about forty five (45) minutes Jerry appeared as did one of his friends. I believe it was Russell. They sat at the next table. We naturally engaged in conversation about everyday things. We spoke about childcare. That night my family were using the creche's facility. We found out that the group of families were occupying ground floor flats near the swimming pool and they were leaving the children by themselves in order for them to go to the restaurant in the evenings. They would then go regularly to check the children who would be asleep."
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I've just come out of hibernation and read this fascinating thread; it may explain something that has puzzled me.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm
--- snip ---
- During the conversation the mother told her that she did not understand why a couple had abducted her daughter.
- However, the third individual overheard this conversation and interrupted Ms. Martin and took the McCann couple away from her.
This same individual came shortly afterwards to tell her that the couple did not want to talk to her any further and did not require her help - an action that appeared quite strange to her.
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I cannot see any mention of this 'couple' in the statements by the McCanns.
Why not? Why drop any mention of this 'couple' when talking to the Police?
What would Madeline have to say about this couple if we could ask her? Mr and Mrs McCann state that Madeleine asked why they had not come in to see her when she was crying.
Did Madeline say more? Who knows? I'm not sure whether this kind of speculation is permitted.
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I've just come out of hibernation and read this fascinating thread; it may explain something that has puzzled me.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm
--- snip ---
- During the conversation the mother told her that she did not understand why a couple had abducted her daughter.
- However, the third individual overheard this conversation and interrupted Ms. Martin and took the McCann couple away from her.
This same individual came shortly afterwards to tell her that the couple did not want to talk to her any further and did not require her help - an action that appeared quite strange to her.
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I cannot see any mention of this 'couple' in the statements by the McCanns.
Why not? Why drop any mention of this 'couple' when talking to the Police?
What would Madeline have to say about this couple if we could ask her? Mr and Mrs McCann state that Madeleine asked why they had not come in to see her when she was crying.
Did Madeline say more? Who knows? I'm not sure whether this kind of speculation is permitted.
Your "Speculation" is grossly misrepresented. There was no mention of a couple by Kate McCann.
Yvonne Martin then sent an anonymous letter to The PJ, which was hardly the act of a Professional.
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I've just come out of hibernation and read this fascinating thread; it may explain something that has puzzled me.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm
--- snip ---
- During the conversation the mother told her that she did not understand why a couple had abducted her daughter.
- However, the third individual overheard this conversation and interrupted Ms. Martin and took the McCann couple away from her.
This same individual came shortly afterwards to tell her that the couple did not want to talk to her any further and did not require her help - an action that appeared quite strange to her.
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I cannot see any mention of this 'couple' in the statements by the McCanns.
Why not? Why drop any mention of this 'couple' when talking to the Police?
What would Madeline have to say about this couple if we could ask her? Mr and Mrs McCann state that Madeleine asked why they had not come in to see her when she was crying.
Did Madeline say more? Who knows? I'm not sure whether this kind of speculation is permitted.
"The statements given to the PJ today by Yvonne Martin provide a concrete clarification of the reasons for her suspicions, which in my opinion, do not point to any concrete element that could, in any way, make other inquiries directly related to her statements, viable."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm
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"The statements given to the PJ today by Yvonne Martin provide a concrete clarification of the reasons for her suspicions, which in my opinion, do not point to any concrete element that could, in any way, make other inquiries directly related to her statements, viable."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm
Yes, but that is in the context of the previous paragraph:
She adds that on one occasion, because it had occurred to her that the parents and the friends could eventually be involved in the child's disappearance, she wrote an anonymous letter to the British police.
I agree there is no reason to suspect the parents of involvement, and I'm positive they were not involved, but that does not mean the statement that Yvonne made is false.
David Payne confirms the interaction happened in his rogatory statement.
David Payne also makes the following statement:
It was a face of someone's child who had been taken and you know and very clearly said she's gone, she's you know, she's gone, you know and there was a disbelief on our face you know ah you know you must be mistaken, what, and then you know just looking at her we just all err left the table, rushed over to her and as we were walking up towards the flat she said err you know they've taken her and it was, you know, and I know there's been a controversy about what was actually said but you know that is very accurately what had been said.
In my view "they've taken her" could be referring to a couple.
Yvonne Martin has clearly testified that Kate McCann told her that a couple had taken the child.
The question is whether that statement to true or false - I do not know the answer to that question.
But if someone has seen a 'couple' enter the apartment then has this couple come forward? Is this couple a figment of someone's imagination? What does 'they've taken her mean'?
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Yes, but that is in the context of the previous paragraph:
She adds that on one occasion, because it had occurred to her that the parents and the friends could eventually be involved in the child's disappearance, she wrote an anonymous letter to the British police.
I agree there is no reason to suspect the parents of involvement, and I'm positive they were not involved, but that does not mean the statement that Yvonne made is false.
David Payne confirms the interaction happened in his rogatory statement.
David Payne also makes the following statement:
It was a face of someone's child who had been taken and you know and very clearly said she's gone, she's you know, she's gone, you know and there was a disbelief on our face you know ah you know you must be mistaken, what, and then you know just looking at her we just all err left the table, rushed over to her and as we were walking up towards the flat she said err you know they've taken her and it was, you know, and I know there's been a controversy about what was actually said but you know that is very accurately what had been said.
In my view "they've taken her" could be referring to a couple.
Yvonne Martin has clearly testified that Kate McCann told her that a couple had taken the child.
The question is whether that statement to true or false - I do not know the answer to that question.
But if someone has seen a 'couple' enter the apartment then has this couple come forward? Is this couple a figment of someone's imagination? What does 'they've taken her mean'?
The most charitable light I can cast on Yvonne Martin is that she was mistaken from start to finish.
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The most charitable light I can cast on Yvonne Martin is that she was mistaken from start to finish.
Fair enough - that is a perfectly valid view of her statement.
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Your "Speculation" is grossly misrepresented. There was no mention of a couple by Kate McCann.
Yvonne Martin then sent an anonymous letter to The PJ, which was hardly the act of a Professional.
If the letter was from anonymous how is it figured Y Martin sent it?
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If the letter was from anonymous how is it figured Y Martin sent it?
She might have signed it by accident.
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She might have signed it by accident.
Hardly anonymous then was it?
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Hardly anonymous then was it?
But it solves your question "If the letter was from anonymous how is it figured Y Martin sent it?" I was joking really.
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Yes, but that is in the context of the previous paragraph:
She adds that on one occasion, because it had occurred to her that the parents and the friends could eventually be involved in the child's disappearance, she wrote an anonymous letter to the British police.
I agree there is no reason to suspect the parents of involvement, and I'm positive they were not involved, but that does not mean the statement that Yvonne made is false.
David Payne confirms the interaction happened in his rogatory statement.
David Payne also makes the following statement:
It was a face of someone's child who had been taken and you know and very clearly said she's gone, she's you know, she's gone, you know and there was a disbelief on our face you know ah you know you must be mistaken, what, and then you know just looking at her we just all err left the table, rushed over to her and as we were walking up towards the flat she said err you know they've taken her and it was, you know, and I know there's been a controversy about what was actually said but you know that is very accurately what had been said.
In my view "they've taken her" could be referring to a couple.
Yvonne Martin has clearly testified that Kate McCann told her that a couple had taken the child.
The question is whether that statement to true or false - I do not know the answer to that question.
But if someone has seen a 'couple' enter the apartment then has this couple come forward? Is this couple a figment of someone's imagination? What does 'they've taken her mean'?
"They've taken her" could be interpreted as "someone's taken her" without knowing whether the person was male or female. In the latest world-gone-mad P.C. society, gender neutrality means you now have to refer to a person as "they" rather than "he" or "she.
It is possible that YM recalled the conversation incorrectly just as she incorrectly identified the DP's T-Shirt (the man with the McCanns when she was present).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm
"She describes him as tall man, height about 1,80 m, about 35 years old, of normal physical complexion, with short, dark hair, with a round face and with a scar on the left side of his face running from the eyebrow to the check. He uses graduated glasses of small dimension with rectangular lenses. He spoke with a southern English accent and was wearing cream coloured trousers and a dark polo shirt
Is anyone able to locate a photo showing DP with a scar running from his eyebrow to his cheek, please?
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If the letter was from anonymous how is it figured Y Martin sent it?
She later admitted that she had sent the anonymous letter.
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She later admitted that she had sent the anonymous letter.
Thanks for that.
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Thanks for that.
My pleasure. Nasty woman and her innuendoes.
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My pleasure. Nasty woman and her innuendoes.
You're talking about Yvonne I presume? I must look into that again at some stage, for I was a bit like Barrier at the start of learning about the case.
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PJ Inspector Ferreira had Yvonne Martin sized up bang-on to rights:
The statements given to the PJ today by Yvonne Martin provide a concrete clarification of the reasons for her suspicions, which in my opinion, do not point to any concrete element that could, in any way, make other inquiries directly related to her statements, viable.
With nothing further to add.
Signed
Inspector Ferreira
Processos Volume X111 Pages 3422 - 3424
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm
"She describes him as tall man, height about 1,80 m, about 35 years old, of normal physical complexion, with short, dark hair, with a round face and with a scar on the left side of his face running from the eyebrow to the check. He uses graduated glasses of small dimension with rectangular lenses. He spoke with a southern English accent and was wearing cream coloured trousers and a dark polo shirt
Is anyone able to locate a photo showing .... ...... with a scar running from his eyebrow to his cheek, please?
I cannot locate a photo, but the man is definitely David Payne.
David Payne rogatory:
1485 "Alright, okay well that's the end of the phone traffic, one fin, one question or one person I'd like to speak to you about is Yvonne MARTIN. Do you know a person called Yvonne MARTIN''
01:34:03 Reply "Yvonne MARTIN''
1485 "Social Worker.'
Reply "Right. Oh, okay, err there was a lady who was there on the err when me, when me and Kate were waiting on the err morning you know after Madeleine had disappeared err there was err a photographer who was living in the area who err approached us and was just saying ah I used to work for the Daily Mirror, he gave his card and then this woman came up and started err chatting to us who err essentially just said ah I've got many years of experience you know and just started to really try and again force their selves in the situation a bit rather than just saying look I'm around if you need me err you know, so basically I just said it wasn't you know appropriate at the time, could she leave us alone and err but I must admit I didn't know what her, that was you know, that was, and she was, you know she said she was trained for many years as a Social Worker and was out there now err and was offering her help, but not in a particularly helpful way and she appeared you know, and that was on the you know the morning, I don't know somewhere perhaps between nine and ten o' clock in the morning. Err you know I'm sure, sure she'd been at, you know, she popped in there and you know she was around the area, she was seen again, but I mean I didn't have any more contact with her then but at the time it wasn't particularly helpful. Err I can't really say any more than that.'
01:35:47 1485 "Did you know her before that meeting''
Reply "Err no.'
1485 "Did you speak to the MCCANN'S about it''
Reply "Err we, yeah we spoke in the context of you know that was completely inappropriate the way that she was trying to deal with it, it's like she was trying to council Kate there and then in the thick of, you know, they're still trying to establish what's going on and what was happening err so you know I spoke to, you know I'm sure I mentioned her to Kate and Gerry you know within a short space of time, you know within twenty four hours of it happening. Err you know, just an example I, you know I was with Kate for quite a number of hours where I was sat with her at the err Police Station in Portim' and everything and you know weeks later she said who was I sat with, you know, and it was that, its that kind of thing you know I'm sure you know I spoke to them about it there and then within twenty four hours but err you know nothing was really mentioned a great deal about her later on or you know it was the, the, you know pretty much you know the conversation was dealt, you know dealt with it there and then and it wasn't, you know, perhaps I mentioned it to the others saying you know and if she popped up here and there you know other people might have mentioned her but she wasn't something that kind of like was the focus of the conversations that we had subsequently.'
1485 "Yeah.'
01:37:15 Reply "Err for that morning.'
1485 "Did you advise the MCCANN'S to turn to her''
Reply "Not at all, no.'
1485 "Not at all''
Reply "Not at all. She was someone I'd certainly say to, to keep clear of you know and I, and I think pretty much I was saying look you know, appreciate your concern at this stage but you know it's not the right time to be talking to her, if you want to leave a card then you know perhaps there might be a time in the future but you know can you just leave us please, and that was you know the basics of the conversation that I had with her. Err you know her timing was just completely off, err you know there was, I say there was someone else who visited on the night that she was abducted, I think she was from the upstairs and she was again you know trying to say there, there Kate, you're alright, and again it was just completely inappropriate timing.'
1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "I didn't think there was anything sinister about it I just thought it was people who didn't really perhaps have an insight into you know what has gone on and what was good timing and what wasn't. I never really thought anything much more about either of them.'
---
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PJ Inspector Ferreira had Yvonne Martin sized up bang-on to rights:
I'm not trying to defend her, but her initial approach seemed reasonable: i.e. if Gerry was not the biological father then the actual biological father may have snatched Madeleine, my understanding is that this is quite common.
She also made a statement that she thought she recognised the 'third individual' from her work, this was possibly ill-advised, but I'm not sure that it was malicious.
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If there is a connection between the mystery couple and the couple that Kate was talking about with Yvonne I don't see why Yvonne Martin's statement can't be part of the OP and on topic.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/YVONNE-WARREN-MARTIN.htm
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Read through the statement by Yvonne. There is one part that is a bit odd at the end and it could just be a misunderstanding.
"She adds that, after having spoken to the McCann couple, she spoke to the resort manager, and after identifying herself, asked him whether there had been a break-in in the apartment where the child was, to which he replied no but that the door was open as were the window blinds, which, according to Kate, should have been closed but were found open.
Does that mean both the door and the blinds (shutters) were open "which, according to Kate, should have been closed but were found open". We are not talking the sliding patio door are we but the front door. Was the front door and the window open?
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I'm not trying to defend her, but her initial approach seemed reasonable: i.e. if Gerry was not the biological father then the actual biological father may have snatched Madeleine, my understanding is that this is quite common.
She also made a statement that she thought she recognised the 'third individual' from her work, this was possibly ill-advised, but I'm not sure that it was malicious.
The woman is indefensible as far as I am concerned.
- she arrived by her own invitation at the scene of the alleged abduction waving her 'credentials' around
- she was known to none ... neither the police nor the victim's parents nor any in their party
- not surprisingly the police would have assumed she was there in an official capacity and the victims having seen her coming from police lines would have assumed she was with the police
- she made unprofessional value judgements which she 'shared' without verification
- don't forget she had approached a team of professionals who very quickly assessed that they had perhaps been invaded by exactly the type of person police usually take great pains to protect victims from and who questioned her presence
- she took it upon herself ... who did this woman think she was??? ... to attempt to isolate and further upset the grieving mother if such a thing were possible ... so that she could probe further into things that did not concern her
I think there will be few who think that is either appropriate or professional behaviour. She was ushered away from the scene and the person who did that apparently became the victim of her spite ... why else write an anonymous letter associating him with the vilest association possible with not the slightest indication of veracity?
What was her intention in doing that if not malice?
In my opinion, Yvonne Martin did not cover herself in glory as far as this episode involving her was concerned and I have often wondered what her work superiors made of her behaviour when they learned what she had done.
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"She adds that, after having spoken to the McCann couple, she spoke to the resort manager, and after identifying herself, asked him whether there had been a break-in in the apartment where the child was, to which he replied no but that the door was open as were the window blinds, which, according to Kate, should have been closed but were found open."
I fully understand there were no signs of forced entry, so is that is what is meant by "break-in"?
What is the true definition of breaking and entry?
breaking and entering
v., n. entering a residence or other enclosed property through the slightest amount of force (even pushing open a door), without authorization. If there is intent to commit a crime, this is burglary. If there is no such intent, the breaking and entering alone is probably at least illegal trespass, which is a misdemeanor crime. (See: burglary, trespass).
https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/uniform-crime-reporting-handbook/burglary.html
"Burglary—Unlawful Entry—No Force
The entry of a structure in a Burglary—Unlawful Entry—No Force (5b) situation is achieved by use of an unlocked door or window. The element of trespass to the structure is essential in this category, which includes thefts from open garages, open warehouses, open or unlocked dwellings, and open or unlocked common basement areas in apartment houses where entry is achieved by other than the tenant who has lawful access."
So as soon as the burglar reaches inside he has unlawfully entered a building. There maybe no break-in just unlawful entry no force.
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The woman is indefensible as far as I am concerned.
- she arrived by her own invitation at the scene of the alleged abduction waving her 'credentials' around
- she was known to none ... neither the police nor the victim's parents nor any in their party
- not surprisingly the police would have assumed she was there in an official capacity and the victims having seen her coming from police lines would have assumed she was with the police
- she made unprofessional value judgements which she 'shared' without verification
- don't forget she had approached a team of professionals who very quickly assessed that they had perhaps been invaded by exactly the type of person police usually take great pains to protect victims from and who questioned her presence
- she took it upon herself ... who did this woman think she was??? ... to attempt to isolate and further upset the grieving mother if such a thing were possible ... so that she could probe further into things that did not concern her
I think there will be few who think that is either appropriate or professional behaviour. She was ushered away from the scene and the person who did that apparently became the victim of her spite ... why else write an anonymous letter associating him with the vilest association possible with not the slightest indication of veracity?
What was her intention in doing that if not malice?
In my opinion, Yvonne Martin did not cover herself in glory as far as this episode involving her was concerned and I have often wondered what her work superiors made of her behaviour when they learned what she had done.
She had some credentials with her and in her role she may have been allowed to do this in the case of British citizens. It might be like an SPCA inspector who can't ignore cases of cruelty, but has to act. I don't know what her authorities were.
"At this moment, the witness notices that the couple began to have doubts about her capacity and she immediately showed them her official documents and credentials issued by the British government to calm them down.
Gerry took her documents and showed them to the third person and told him that they were authentic and were certified by the police.
At this moment, the witness wishes to clarify that, in England, anyone who works with children, whether a doctor, police officer or social worker, has to have a proper credential certified by the police and that this was one of the documents she showed to the McCanns. " She must have felt she had the authority to approach the citizens.
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She had some credentials with her and in her role she may have been allowed to do this in the case of British citizens. It might be like an SPCA inspector who can't ignore cases of cruelty, but has to act. I don't know what her authorities were.
"At this moment, the witness notices that the couple began to have doubts about her capacity and she immediately showed them her official documents and credentials issued by the British government to calm them down.
Gerry took her documents and showed them to the third person and told him that they were authentic and were certified by the police.
At this moment, the witness wishes to clarify that, in England, anyone who works with children, whether a doctor, police officer or social worker, has to have a proper credential certified by the police and that this was one of the documents she showed to the McCanns. " She must have felt she had the authority to approach the citizens.
What does one do when introducing oneself in a professional capacity? Particularly if one is inquisitive about the extra sensitive circumstances regarding a suspected abduction of a child.
Without a shadow of doubt one establishes one's identity and what one's remit and capacity to help might be.
Yvonne Martin only tried to establish who she was once her targets became suspicious of her presence. She had no locus there she had no authorisation from anyone in authority to be there. She was a lone wolf who imposed herself without any attempt to contact superiors in Britain or anyone in authority in Portugal to ascertain if there was a proper role for her.
Quite obviously as far as anyone at all was concerned particularly the Policia Judiciaria she was superfluous to requirements.
Her inadequacies appear to have been almost immediately apparent to those on the ground on the day of her intervention.
Her subsequent vile poison pen attempt to destroy the good name and life of someone who blocked her progress on that day should in my opinion flag up that the nature of an individual capable of such aberration is cause for concern.
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What does one do when introducing oneself in a professional capacity? Particularly if one is inquisitive about the extra sensitive circumstances regarding a suspected abduction of a child.
Without a shadow of doubt one establishes one's identity and what one's remit and capacity to help might be.
Yvonne Martin only tried to establish who she was once her targets became suspicious of her presence. She had no locus there she had no authorisation from anyone in authority to be there. She was a lone wolf who imposed herself without any attempt to contact superiors in Britain or anyone in authority in Portugal to ascertain if there was a proper role for her.
Quite obviously as far as anyone at all was concerned particularly the Policia Judiciaria she was superfluous to requirements.
Her inadequacies appear to have been almost immediately apparent to those on the ground on the day of her intervention.
Her subsequent vile poison pen attempt to destroy the good name and life of someone who blocked her progress on that day should in my opinion flag up that the nature of an individual capable of such aberration is cause for concern.
I question her motives, too. Shortly after Luz, she went to to be a senior figure in CAFCASS, who have been the subject of much controversy especially in the field of forced adoptions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RvKe2U6QLs
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I cannot locate a photo, but the man is definitely David Payne.
David Payne rogatory:
1485 "Alright, okay well that's the end of the phone traffic, one fin, one question or one person I'd like to speak to you about is Yvonne MARTIN. Do you know a person called Yvonne MARTIN''
01:34:03 Reply "Yvonne MARTIN''
1485 "Social Worker.'
Reply "Right. Oh, okay, err there was a lady who was there on the err when me, when me and Kate were waiting on the err morning you know after Madeleine had disappeared err there was err a photographer who was living in the area who err approached us and was just saying ah I used to work for the Daily Mirror, he gave his card and then this woman came up and started err chatting to us who err essentially just said ah I've got many years of experience you know and just started to really try and again force their selves in the situation a bit rather than just saying look I'm around if you need me err you know, so basically I just said it wasn't you know appropriate at the time, could she leave us alone and err but I must admit I didn't know what her, that was you know, that was, and she was, you know she said she was trained for many years as a Social Worker and was out there now err and was offering her help, but not in a particularly helpful way and she appeared you know, and that was on the you know the morning, I don't know somewhere perhaps between nine and ten o' clock in the morning. Err you know I'm sure, sure she'd been at, you know, she popped in there and you know she was around the area, she was seen again, but I mean I didn't have any more contact with her then but at the time it wasn't particularly helpful. Err I can't really say any more than that.'
01:35:47 1485 "Did you know her before that meeting''
Reply "Err no.'
1485 "Did you speak to the MCCANN'S about it''
Reply "Err we, yeah we spoke in the context of you know that was completely inappropriate the way that she was trying to deal with it, it's like she was trying to council Kate there and then in the thick of, you know, they're still trying to establish what's going on and what was happening err so you know I spoke to, you know I'm sure I mentioned her to Kate and Gerry you know within a short space of time, you know within twenty four hours of it happening. Err you know, just an example I, you know I was with Kate for quite a number of hours where I was sat with her at the err Police Station in Portim' and everything and you know weeks later she said who was I sat with, you know, and it was that, its that kind of thing you know I'm sure you know I spoke to them about it there and then within twenty four hours but err you know nothing was really mentioned a great deal about her later on or you know it was the, the, you know pretty much you know the conversation was dealt, you know dealt with it there and then and it wasn't, you know, perhaps I mentioned it to the others saying you know and if she popped up here and there you know other people might have mentioned her but she wasn't something that kind of like was the focus of the conversations that we had subsequently.'
1485 "Yeah.'
01:37:15 Reply "Err for that morning.'
1485 "Did you advise the MCCANN'S to turn to her''
Reply "Not at all, no.'
1485 "Not at all''
Reply "Not at all. She was someone I'd certainly say to, to keep clear of you know and I, and I think pretty much I was saying look you know, appreciate your concern at this stage but you know it's not the right time to be talking to her, if you want to leave a card then you know perhaps there might be a time in the future but you know can you just leave us please, and that was you know the basics of the conversation that I had with her. Err you know her timing was just completely off, err you know there was, I say there was someone else who visited on the night that she was abducted, I think she was from the upstairs and she was again you know trying to say there, there Kate, you're alright, and again it was just completely inappropriate timing.'
1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "I didn't think there was anything sinister about it I just thought it was people who didn't really perhaps have an insight into you know what has gone on and what was good timing and what wasn't. I never really thought anything much more about either of them.'
---
I agree it was Mr P. but I was concerned about the accuracy of YM's recollection in her statement made 5 weeks after the event - Mr P was wearing a striped T-Shirt not a dark polo shirt (polo shirts normally collared?) & I can't see a scar on his face.
This is something I haven't noticed before - who was this woman from upstairs?
"Err you know her timing was just completely off, err you know there was, I say there was someone else who visited on the night that she was abducted, I think she was from the upstairs and she was again you know trying to say there, there Kate, you're alright, and again it was just completely inappropriate timing.'
1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "I didn't think there was anything sinister about it I just thought it was people who didn't really perhaps have an insight into you know what has gone on and what was good timing and what wasn't. I never really thought anything much more about either of them.'
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I question her motives, too. Shortly after Luz, she went to to be a senior figure in CAFCASS, who have been the subject of much controversy especially in the field of forced adoptions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RvKe2U6QLs
Thanks for that information, Misty, very interesting indeed.
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I agree it was Mr P. but I was concerned about the accuracy of YM's recollection in her statement made 5 weeks after the event - Mr P was wearing a striped T-Shirt not a dark polo shirt (polo shirts normally collared?) & I can't see a scar on his face.
This is something I haven't noticed before - who was this woman from upstairs?
"Err you know her timing was just completely off, err you know there was, I say there was someone else who visited on the night that she was abducted, I think she was from the upstairs and she was again you know trying to say there, there Kate, you're alright, and again it was just completely inappropriate timing.'
1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "I didn't think there was anything sinister about it I just thought it was people who didn't really perhaps have an insight into you know what has gone on and what was good timing and what wasn't. I never really thought anything much more about either of them.'
I think it is wrong for anyone to say Yvonne's actions were inappropriate for I'm sure she had the training and the credentials to allow her to do what she was doing. If she had previous dealing with Dave and was concerned as to his influence on the situation I can see why she may have thought it best to wave the flag. OK in the end Dave has not been identified as a suspect, but the McCanns were, so really she should have been allowed to go further, for if Madeleine had truly been in danger from the parents how safe were the other two kids? I think this was on Yvonne's mind.
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I think it is wrong for anyone to say Yvonne's actions were inappropriate for I'm sure she had the training and the credentials to allow her to do what she was doing. If she had previous dealing with Dave and was concerned as to his influence on the situation I can see why she may have thought it best to wave the flag. OK in the end Dave has not been identified as a suspect, but the McCanns were, so really she should have been allowed to go further, for if Madeleine had truly been in danger from the parents how safe were the other two kids? I think this was on Yvonne's mind.
What do you think YM knew about the situation at 9am on 4th May 2007, given that all she'd seen was a news report on the TV?
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What do you think YM knew about the situation at 9am on 4th May 2007, given that all she'd seen was a news report on the TV?
She drove there and met the McCanns and spoke to them and spoke to someone we think is Dave. She says once there she recognised one of them from previous dealings. She was concerned by that knowledge and previous history. She is on the spot not just getting news off the tele.
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In the case of Yvonne Martin, on what basis was she trying to impose,insinuate,intercede or inveigle ? [delete to suit your viewpoint]. She had no jurisdiction in Portugal.
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In the case of Yvonne Martin, on what basis was she trying to impose,insinuate,intercede or inveigle ? [delete to suit your viewpoint]. She had no jurisdiction in Portugal.
But her mandate if that is the right word may have required to take action in the case of British citizens in overseas countries on a person to person basis , and nothing to do with jurisdiction.
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But her mandate if that is the right word may have required to take action in the case of British citizens in overseas countries on a person to person basis , and nothing to do with jurisdiction.
As a child protection officer, she should have known that there was nothing she could do in an overseas case bar speaking with the FCO.
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But her mandate if that is the right word may have required to take action in the case of British citizens in overseas countries on a person to person basis , and nothing to do with jurisdiction.
Were she a UK Social Worker she would have been employed by a County Council or equivalent municipal body. It's improbable her authority extended into the next county let alone another country.
UK officers have no authority abroad unless granted by the State they are in, this includes the police.
The incident smacks to me of "Nosey Neighbour Syndrome".
I wish to be associated with the remarks of Misty above re FCO.
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But her mandate if that is the right word may have required to take action in the case of British citizens in overseas countries on a person to person basis , and nothing to do with jurisdiction.
her mandate would be to report any concern...not take action
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She drove there and met the McCanns and spoke to them and spoke to someone we think is Dave. She says once there she recognised one of them from previous dealings. She was concerned by that knowledge and previous history. She is on the spot not just getting news off the tele.
That is not how it works Robitty. She was not a lone ranger. She behaved inappropriately without benefit of any germane information, authorisation or benefit of case conferences.
Do not forget ... Yvonne Martin was a complete stranger to Madeleine's parents ... if she was a bona fide child care worker haven't you stopped to wonder that the absolute last thing on her mind was the welfare of Madeleine's siblings.
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That is not how it works Robitty. She was not a lone ranger. She behaved inappropriately without benefit of any germane information, authorisation or benefit of case conferences.
Do not forget ... Yvonne Martin was a complete stranger to Madeleine's parents ... if she was a bona fide child care worker haven't you stopped to wonder that the absolute last thing on her mind was the welfare of Madeleine's siblings.
I mentioned the other children.
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Were she a UK Social Worker she would have been employed by a County Council or equivalent municipal body. It's improbable her authority extended into the next county let alone another country.
UK officers have no authority abroad unless granted by the State they are in, this includes the police.
The incident smacks to me of "Nosey Neighbour Syndrome".
I wish to be associated with the remarks of Misty above re FCO.
Well is there any evidence she got reprimanded when she returned to the UK?
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Well is there any evidence she got reprimanded when she returned to the UK?
Why would there be evidence of reprimand? if there is it might be on her Human Remains file at the appropriate City Hall.
If you knew how secretive child welfare is in the UK and how secretive UK "City Halls" are in general you wouldn't bother asking the question.
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Why would there be evidence of reprimand? if there is it might be on her Human Remains file at the appropriate City Hall.
If you knew how secretive child welfare is in the UK and how secretive UK "City Halls" are in general you wouldn't bother asking the question.
But we are super sleuths on here.
Well it must have been a mighty coincidence that she knew Dave then.
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Amaral must have been astounded at her insight
"She adds that on one occasion, because it had occurred to her that the parents and the friends could eventually be involved in the child's disappearance, she wrote an anonymous letter to the British police.
The statements given to the PJ today by Yvonne Martin provide a concrete clarification of the reasons for her suspicions, which in my opinion, do not point to any concrete element that could, in any way, make other inquiries directly related to her statements, viable.
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Why would there be evidence of reprimand? if there is it might be on her Human Remains file at the appropriate City Hall.
If you knew how secretive child welfare is in the UK and how secretive UK "City Halls" are in general you wouldn't bother asking the question.
The PJ went around to her home "and this was her motivation. "- Having worked for 25 years in the area of child protection, she felt obliged to offer help to her compatriots and went to Praia da Luz."
Nothing particularly wrong with that consdidering other concerned citizen assisted in the search for Madeleine.
Obviously Kate appreciated her assistence to begin with "- She identified herself and presented her credentials and immediately began talking to the mother of the missing child as she was visibly upset with the situation.
- During the conversation the mother told her that she did not understand why a couple had abducted her daughter."
Then the person who she had prior dealings with actively blocked further communication. I think she was right in reporting this to the Police.
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But we are super sleuths on here.
Well it must have been a mighty coincidence that she knew Dave then.
Do you mean like Philip Marlowe and Slim Callaghan?
I can see the connexion with Slim Callaghan maybe but none with Marlowe.
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Do you mean like Philip Marlowe and Slim Callaghan?
I can see the connexion with Slim Callaghan maybe but none with Marlowe.
Were they ever employed by Metodo 3?
Did they ever get to share the loot in the Find Madeleine Fund?
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I agree it was Mr P. but I was concerned about the accuracy of YM's recollection in her statement made 5 weeks after the event - Mr P was wearing a striped T-Shirt not a dark polo shirt (polo shirts normally collared?) & I can't see a scar on his face.
This is something I haven't noticed before - who was this woman from upstairs?
"Err you know her timing was just completely off, err you know there was, I say there was someone else who visited on the night that she was abducted, I think she was from the upstairs and she was again you know trying to say there, there Kate, you're alright, and again it was just completely inappropriate timing.'
1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "I didn't think there was anything sinister about it I just thought it was people who didn't really perhaps have an insight into you know what has gone on and what was good timing and what wasn't. I never really thought anything much more about either of them.'
Not sure, but it looks like Mrs Moyes from the top apartment.
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Not sure, but it looks like Mrs Moyes from the top apartment.
Well Moyes were up higher and did join in on the search but there were a lot of apartments in that block so why did you point it out being Mrs Moyes?
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Well Moyes were up higher and did join in on the search but there were a lot of apartments in that block so why did you point it out being Mrs Moyes?
Well as I said I'm not sure, but I'm basing my belief that it looks like it may have been Mrs Moyes from her statement on the radio show and the article in the Express:
SUSAN MOYES Sure. We went out for a meal about seven o’clock down in the town. We walked back about nine o’clock, round past, erm, the church, round past the supermarket, back to the apartment. Went out on the balcony about quarter past nine. Everywhere was peaceful, everywhere was lovely. We then went to bed. We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say a little girl had been abducted. Those were the words she used. So we got dressed and joined in the search. We were out till about four in the morning with, oooh, about I dont know, thirty people, thirty other people maybe. The Mark Warner team were out with other guests at the Ocean Club.
From the Express article:
The woman’s statement continues: “We walked back up towards our apartment, a group had gathered on the corner. The McCanns were in bits, he was crying on the shoulder of a friend. She was screaming: ‘The f*****g b........s have taken her’. Finally, at around 4am, we said: ‘Is it OK if we go to bed?’ We directed this comment towards a man in a white shirt and jeans, who seemed to be authoritative.”
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All the caveats about whether the 'missing couple' actually exist apply, but I'm just running with the possibility.
It is only a newspaper report from the Express and so there may be reliability issues, but a few quotes stood out:
(a) It is believed they entered the bedroom on May 2, 2007, the evening before Madeleine disappeared from the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz on Portugal’s Algarve.
(b) It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.
Mrs Fenn stated:
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
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There is a mismatch in dates, but this is quite possibly an error in the report/statements, so it is possible this all happened on the same night.
Mrs Fenn states 'she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them.'
It would not appear to be certain that the parents entered the apartment, as reported by Mrs Fenn, because she did not see them, it could have been the 'mystery couple'.
If the mystery couple do exist then I'm speculating that the people reporting seeing the mystery couple and the mystery couple are one and the same, and that the purpose of the entering the apartment was, as reported “Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”
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All the caveats about whether the 'missing couple' actually exist apply, but I'm just running with the possibility.
.....
If the mystery couple do exist then I'm speculating that the people reporting seeing the mystery couple and the mystery couple are one and the same, and that the purpose of the entering the apartment was, as reported “Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”
That would definitely be a possibility that would not cross everyone's mind. Very clever thinking there. For to see the mystery couple you had to be near there as well.
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All the caveats about whether the 'missing couple' actually exist apply, but I'm just running with the possibility.
It is only a newspaper report from the Express and so there may be reliability issues, but a few quotes stood out:
(a) It is believed they entered the bedroom on May 2, 2007, the evening before Madeleine disappeared from the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz on Portugal’s Algarve.
(b) It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.
Mrs Fenn stated:
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
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There is a mismatch in dates, but this is quite possibly an error in the report/statements, so it is possible this all happened on the same night.
Mrs Fenn states 'she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them.'
It would not appear to be certain that the parents entered the apartment, as reported by Mrs Fenn, because she did not see them, it could have been the 'mystery couple'.
If the mystery couple do exist then I'm speculating that the people reporting seeing the mystery couple and the mystery couple are one and the same, and that the purpose of the entering the apartment was, as reported “Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”
Mrs Fenn HEARD the patio doors open and ASSUMED that it was the parents coming home. She did not see them.
The patio doors being opened could have been for an altogether different reason, such as going out for a drink on the balcony or a view of the ocean and fresh air
Or even to help cool the apartment from the heat build up during the day. I am not aware that there was any air conditioning in any of the apartments.
To say that she heard the parents coming home is an assumption too far imo
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Mrs Fenn HEARD the patio doors open and ASSUMED that it was the parents coming home. She did not see them.
The patio doors being opened could have been for an altogether different reason, such as going out for a drink on the balcony or a view of the ocean and fresh air
Or even to help cool the apartment from the heat build up during the day. I am not aware that there was any air conditioning in any of the apartments.
To say that she heard the parents coming home is an assumption too far imo
As far as I remember they said they hey had been out late on the Tuesday?
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All the caveats about whether the 'missing couple' actually exist apply, but I'm just running with the possibility.
It is only a newspaper report from the Express and so there may be reliability issues, but a few quotes stood out:
(a) It is believed they entered the bedroom on May 2, 2007, the evening before Madeleine disappeared from the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz on Portugal’s Algarve.
(b) It is already known that Pamela Fenn, who lived directly above apartment 5a, heard a child, believed to be Madeleine, crying for about an hour on the evening of May 2.
Mrs Fenn stated:
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
===
There is a mismatch in dates, but this is quite possibly an error in the report/statements, so it is possible this all happened on the same night.
Mrs Fenn states 'she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them.'
It would not appear to be certain that the parents entered the apartment, as reported by Mrs Fenn, because she did not see them, it could have been the 'mystery couple'.
If the mystery couple do exist then I'm speculating that the people reporting seeing the mystery couple and the mystery couple are one and the same, and that the purpose of the entering the apartment was, as reported “Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.”
What circumstances do you consider would lead to a couple of strangers near 5A entering the apartment, which had its window shutters down & a balcony barely visible from the street, simply because they heard a child crying?
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What circumstances do you consider would lead to a couple of strangers near 5A entering the apartment, which had its window shutters down & a balcony barely visible from the street, simply because they heard a child crying?
I dont believe it.
Nobody went close enough to the apartment to hear any child crying.
And nobody would go up those steps, then slide the patio door open and investigate anyhow. They would go to reception and request help.
IMO
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I dont believe it.
Nobody went close enough to the apartment to hear any child crying.
And nobody would go up those steps, then slide the patio door open and investigate anyhow. They would go to reception and request help.
IMO
Which reception? The 24 hour main reception? Was that door at the secondary reception always open at night time?
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Which reception? The 24 hour main reception? Was that door at the secondary reception always open at night time?
Either. Surely nobody would walk into another persons apartment without going thru the proper channels?
I dont know the answer whether the door was open at night, but when we went it was open and furthermore nobody in attendance.
But it was desperately quiet. Only one or two other tables used.
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Either. Surely nobody would walk into another persons apartment without going thru the proper channels?
I dont know the answer whether the door was open at night, but when we went it was open and furthermore nobody in attendance.
But it was desperately quiet. Only one or two other tables used.
If they considered themselves friends they might.
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What circumstances do you consider would lead to a couple of strangers near 5A entering the apartment, which had its window shutters down & a balcony barely visible from the street, simply because they heard a child crying?
The caveat is 'if the mystery couple exists'.
If they exist they may have come forward to Police and have already been eliminated from any involvement in the subsequent disappearance - the statements that refer to the 'mystery couple' are not in the public domain AFAIK.
One possible scenario is if the 'mystery couple' do exist and did enter the apartment, then I would suspect they were either contacted by Mrs Fenn or they are another resident of the block.
It would be fairly unusual to enter an apartment in these circumstances, but if they were aware that the parents left the children unattended and knew the child had been crying for a long time, someone might decide to make a check.
I would have gone through proper channels, but someone may have not have wanted to involve the Police, or there may be other reasons, such as they felt it was an emergency situation.
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I have been asked to intervene here so I will. Any poster claiming, abduction, murder, infanticide, accidental death or any other theory relating to Madeleine McCann's disappearance as a FACT will be sanctioned accordingly with a ban. I cannot make it any clearer than that. It is unknown what happened to Madeleine at this juncture so please be guided by this warning.
Admin
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I dont believe it.
Nobody went close enough to the apartment to hear any child crying.
And nobody would go up those steps, then slide the patio door open and investigate anyhow. They would go to reception and request help.
IMO
Why would anyone assume 5A had anything to with the Ocean Club when 5G and many others weren't?
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The caveat is 'if the mystery couple exists'.
If they exist they may have come forward to Police and have already been eliminated from any involvement in the subsequent disappearance - the statements that refer to the 'mystery couple' are not in the public domain AFAIK.
One possible scenario is if the 'mystery couple' do exist and did enter the apartment, then I would suspect they were either contacted by Mrs Fenn or they are another resident of the block.
It would be fairly unusual to enter an apartment in these circumstances, but if they were aware that the parents left the children unattended and knew the child had been crying for a long time, someone might decide to make a check.
I would have gone through proper channels, but someone may have not have wanted to involve the Police, or there may be other reasons, such as they felt it was an emergency situation.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/400796/Mystery-couple-seen-going-into-McCanns-flat-on-night-before-sobbing-Madeleine-disappeared
SCOTLAND YARD detectives are trying to find a middle-aged couple said to have entered Madeleine McCann’s holiday apartment to comfort her because she was crying, we can reveal today......
The tip-off was given by two key witnesses who were reinterviewed as part of the Yard’s two-year, £4.5million investigation........
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From that article we can glean there are definitely two separate couples, one known to SY following interviews prior to May 2013 (so presumably a UK couple) & another unknown couple seen by the aforementioned entering 5A.
From that we can deduct that the known couple either
a) totally withheld from the original investigation all information about what they saw
b) Told LP who failed to forward the info to the PJ or
c) Told LP who sent details to the PJ which was then ignored.
Unless Madeleine had ventured outside, imo it is beyond belief that anyone would enter someone else's apartment simply because a child could be heard crying and furthermore leave the children alone again without attempting to trace the parents. Would Madeleine really have just settled back down to sleep in the presence of 2 strangers? Totally ridiculous imo.
Mrs Fenn stated that she was out on the Wednesday evening. Rachel was next door, unwell. The Moyes couple arrived on the Wednesday evening - I will have to check to see if there is any record of the arrival time.
Is it possible that the known couple only actually saw the Moyses going into Block 5 & the story has been somewhat embellished after source?
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So how would that conversation with the tip off go? "The tip-off was given by two key witnesses who were reinterviewed as part of the Yard’s two-year, £4.5million investigation........"
Would the key witnesses be the ones who saw the couple or would they have just heard about it from someone else?
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So how would that conversation with the tip off go? "The tip-off was given by two key witnesses who were reinterviewed as part of the Yard’s two-year, £4.5million investigation........"
Would the key witnesses be the ones who saw the couple or would they have just heard about it from someone else?
I imagine each family who were residing within the vicinity of Block 5 would have been asked about their movements during the days preceding 4th May & their recollections of whom & what they noticed. SY had established the identity of most UK holidaymakers in the resort by May 2013 but I'm not sure how many people of other nationalities had been traced.
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I imagine each family who were residing within the vicinity of Block 5 would have been asked about their movements during the days preceding 4th May & their recollections of whom & what they noticed. SY had established the identity of most UK holidaymakers in the resort by May 2013 but I'm not sure how many people of other nationalities had been traced.
What would someone being classed as a "key witness" imply? Just another tentant in the G5 block would that automatically make them key witnesses?
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What would someone being classed as a "key witness" imply? Just another tentant in the G5 block would that automatically make them key witnesses?
Blocks 2, 4, 5 & 6 were highlighted by the Met but I guess anyone who'd been near Block 5 that week could be a key witness.
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Blocks 2, 4, 5 & 6 were highlighted by the Met but I guess anyone who'd been near Block 5 that week could be a key witness.
Agreed.
More so if it was on 3 May, IMO.