What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?

[Brietta]

The topic of this thread is mentioned by Grime here "Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc. "

It expanding on his idea of "etc" that we are specifically looking at.

As a veterinarian by experience and a dog owner most of my life I struggle to understand what Grime is talking about in the first two of his answers.

"The interpretation of any alert is given when the dogs recognize a specific odour as a result of a response to the behaviour for which they were trained. This response must then be submitted to a forensic examination in order to draw conclusions."  You can't submit the dog's response to a forensic examination.

Maybe he is saying look and see if you can work out what the dog was sniffing before it made the response.  Misty did that in another thread and thought he had it wrong.  Is he warning us things aren't as clear cut as we are being told.  For that is an impossible to understand answer IMO

second answer from above:
"A :: ::  The dogs' alerts are to be considered as an area of interest or possible testing. When specific and reliable this can only be measured for confirmation.
In this case in particular, where the dogs alerted there was confirmation by positive results from the forensic examinations.
(For example the key fob in the hire car)" 

What was all that?  Grime felt there was corroboration by the forensic testing (For example the key fob in the hire car)
That was Gerry's blood on a key fob not Madeleine's.  OK was he just happy that they had found blood; and it doesn't matter who's it was?

There was nothing in it for Grime (except for the agreed rate for the job).
His role was to bring his dogs in to do their job ... it was for the investigation team and the forensic team to take the next step based on his report and his caveat.
I have never seen anywhere that Martin Grime set himself up as judge and jury in Madeleine's case.  He did his job, his dogs did theirs and he left it to the appropriately designated bodies to do theirs.

Which did eventually happen despite the pig's ear made of it all subsequently by internet would be sleuths who firmly believe they know better than the evidence or the professionals.
Proving that 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing'.

[Sunny]

There was nothing in it for Grime (except for the agreed rate for the job).
His role was to bring his dogs in to do their job ... it was for the investigation team and the forensic team to take the next step based on his report and his caveat.
I have never seen anywhere that Martin Grime set himself up as judge and jury in Madeleine's case.  He did his job, his dogs did theirs and he left it to the appropriately designated bodies to do theirs.

Which did eventually happen despite the pig's ear made of it all subsequently by internet would be sleuths who firmly believe they know better than the evidence or the professionals.
Proving that 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing'.

Misty started the other thread not a sceptic. If she hadn't started the thread we wouldn't be discussing it now. Who is the "would be sleuth" here, IMO it is Misty.

Martin Grime believed Eddie had found a "scent he recognises" i.e. cadaver odour.

Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.

[Robittybob1]

Misty started the other thread not a sceptic. If she hadn't started the thread we wouldn't be discussing it now. Who is the "would be sleuth" here, IMO it is Misty.

Martin Grime believed Eddie had found a "scent he recognises" i.e. cadaver odour.

Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.

I have no problem understanding that, and it leaves me convinced there was the smell of cadaver odour in that apartment.  How did the cadaver get there?  No wonder Kate said she couldn't explain it.

[jassi]

I have no problem understanding that, and it leaves me convinced there was the smell of cadaver odour in that apartment.  How did the cadaver get there? No wonder Kate said she couldn't explain it.

I don't recall the  McCanns ever trying to do so. Certainly Gerry was keen to demonstrate how unreliable dogs were, rather than pursue any possibility that they might be correct.

[Robittybob1]

I don't recall the  McCanns ever trying to do so. Certainly Gerry was keen to demonstrate how unreliable dogs were, rather than pursue any possibility that they might be correct.

So are you are tending to think Gerry was dodging the subject? 

Not all cadaver dogs will be equal, some might be unreliable.   Was Gerry aware how reliable Grime's dogs were?

[Miss Taken Identity]

I don't recall the  McCanns ever trying to do so. Certainly Gerry was keen to demonstrate how unreliable dogs were, rather than pursue any possibility that they might be correct.

It seems strange that when told of this- Gerry dismisses the dogs, and doesn't seem at all concerned that MBM could have been killed by someone and removed or hidden in between 'checks'. Such strange behaviour IMO


For some reason, and I suspect it was to do with the reputation management, fund raising at least, They did not want to even acknowledge MBM dead or being killed in the apartment.

Head in sand ? or some other reasons?- interesting.

[Mr Gray]

So are you are tending to think Gerry was dodging the subject? 

Not all cadaver dogs will be equal, some might be unreliable.   Was Gerry aware how reliable Grime's dogs were?

You are perpetuating a myth Rob.... Unconfirmed  alerts are not reliable... Otherwise they would carry more weight

[Miss Taken Identity]

I dont agree...logic dictates if both dogs alert at the same spot it could just be blood and no cadaver odour

This is just your assumption you are not an expert. The dogs alerted to what they were trained to alert to. One qas blood and one was cadaver.

[Robittybob1]

This is just your assumption you are not an expert. The dogs alerted to what they were trained to alert to. One qas blood and one was cadaver.

But decomposed blood has the same smell as cadaver IMO.

[slartibartfast]

But decomposed blood has the same smell as cadaver IMO.

I think you are wrong, otherwise cadaver dogs would always alert to blood.

[Mr Gray]

I think you are wrong, otherwise cadaver dogs would always alert to blood.

Afaik.. You are right..

[Brietta]

This is just your assumption you are not an expert. The dogs alerted to what they were trained to alert to. One qas blood and one was cadaver.

"No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence."  Martin Grime

[Miss Taken Identity]

Afaik.. You are right..

And you do not know. cite please unless you do and can evidence this.

[Robittybob1]

I think you are wrong, otherwise cadaver dogs would always alert to blood.

Blood can dry - no cadaver odour (suitable for DNA analysis).
Blood can rot - cadaver odour (not suitable for DNA analysis).

"No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence."  Martin Grime

  This is what they were trained to find .  One dried human blood, the other human decomposed material (cadaver odour).

[slartibartfast]

Afaik.. You are right..

Thank you.