Ocean Club G was busier than Piccadilly so how come nobody saw anything?

[Carana]

I added Innocentman in the 9:20 slot Icabod...

Assuming Jane got up to do her check at around 9:12-9:15, she would have seen ex-bundleman around a minute after she got up, i.e. 9:13-9:16, not 5 minutes later.

There were quite a few visits by various people, but if someone had been lurking near the dark recess, there's no particular reason that I can think of as to why any of them would have noticed. Heri posted some very interesting photos showing their line of sight.

[AnneGuedes]

Considering Kate & Gerry couldn't agree with each other (or themselves) as to wether Madeleine was sleeping in her bed or on top of it, it is of no suprise that they can't agree on the position of the bedroom door.

Funnily the state of the bed tells neither in nor on, therefore a third story.

[AnneGuedes]

Definitely not. I wrote at length about this on an earlier thread.

The Smith sighting is even harder to explain in terms of a planned abduction than that of bundleman, because it is very difficult to explain why having someone parading round the town with an abducted child could have been part of an organised plan, possibly involving a group of accomplices. The absence of a car, as many of us have remarked, is a big problem for anyone wanting to argue that Smithman was an abductor, or part of a team of abductors - who all appear to have been carless.

Even if there was a plan and something went wrong - very possible - it is hard to believe that parading through the town would be any kind of plan B.

Where this leaves us I don't know. The question of why Smithman appears to be reluctant to identify himself as an innocent parent, as bundleman did, remains.

The probability of having in the same area at the same time two reluctant Innocentmen seems practically null. What if Smithman hardly could be another Innocentman and hardly Abductorman ?

[Wonderfulspam]

Funnily the state of the bed tells neither in nor on, therefore a third story.

So many lies, it's impossible to believe a word they say.
It makes it hard to create an accurate timeline of events.

[Sherlock Holmes]

They made a big point about the door. It's clearly written in her diary. Gerry talked about it being half open when he checked.

Pages 891 to 903 Gerald McCann 10 May 2007

"----- He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge, he noted that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought strange, having then put together the thought of MADELEINE having got up to go to sleep in his bedroom so as to avoid the noise produced [created] by her siblings. In this way he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and is certain of this, that the three were sleeping deeply. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how he had already previously described, [then] going to the bathroom. Everything else was normal, the blinds, curtains and windows closed, very dark, there only being the light that came from the lounge."

They did make a big point about the door, but the account was also changed more than once - perfectly understandable given the trauma and confusion. There are many possibilities as to when Madeleine could have left the apartment, but to analyse them according to what happened with the door is too flimsy. The position the door was in and how that supposedly changed as the evening progressed is something that was not and could not ever have been reliably recorded.

[icabodcrane]

They did make a big point about the door, but the account was also changed more than once - perfectly understandable given the trauma and confusion. There are many possibilities as to when Madeleine could have left the apartment, but to analyse them according to what happened with the door is too flimsy. The position the door was in and how that supposedly changed as the evening progressed is something that was not and could not ever have been reliably recorded.

I don't see how you can dismiss the sightly ajar/half open/slightly ajar again/half open again  bedroom door  as not worth bothering about 

The whole point of the twice changed door position is that it might be  physical evidence  that an intruder was in the apartment as early as 9.00pm  ....  indeed,  the McCanns have claimed that is precisely what it is

What do you find unreliable about their claims  ?

[jassi]

What was the final definitive version, as recounted by Kate in her book what she wrote ?

[AnneGuedes]

Mr McCann underlined 3 critical points in the first conversation he had with the PJ officers :
1) the half way open bedroom door
2) Ms Tanner's sighting
3) Mrs McCann finding everything wide open : shutters, window, curtains.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I don't see how you can dismiss the sightly ajar/half open/slightly ajar again/half open again  bedroom door  as not worth bothering about 

The whole point of the twice changed door position is that it might be  physical evidence  that an intruder was in the apartment as early as 9.00pm  ....  indeed,  the McCanns have claimed that is precisely what it is

What do you find unreliable about their claims  ?

I just think that the position of a door as described in a verbal account by one witness - as opposed, say , to a photograph or CCTV footage of that door being open at a given time - is too flimsy a piece of evidence or a clue.

[Wonderfulspam]

I don't see how you can dismiss the sightly ajar/half open/slightly ajar again/half open again  bedroom door  as not worth bothering about 

The whole point of the twice changed door position is that it might be  physical evidence  that an intruder was in the apartment as early as 9.00pm  ....  indeed,  the McCanns have claimed that is precisely what it is

What do you find unreliable about their claims  ?

Yes, they certainly seem to suggest the positioning of the door had some quite important significance.
Add to that didn't one of them suggest they sensed someone had been in the apartment,
Then there was the "why didn't you come when we were crying last night mummy",  trying to imply someone had been in & disturbed the kids on a kind of practice run for abduction.

[Wonderfulspam]

I just think that the position of a door as described in a verbal account by one witness - as opposed, say , to a photograph or CCTV footage of that door being open at a given time - is too flimsy a piece of evidence or a clue.

How flimsy was the door?

[Sherlock Holmes]

With regard to the door, there are also too many variables.

Several people were in, and were alleged to have been in, the apartment, and also there were the alleged gusts of wind.

There is no way of saying which one of these people or things was responsible for the moving door.

[Sherlock Holmes]

How flimsy was the door?

The front door to the apartment seems to have been quite substantial, in keeping with the design of a lot of doors in this part of the Mediterranean.

If you scroll down to the picture entitled 'The Wardrobe' you can see the bedroom door there. Looks like a relatively cheap plywood door not unlike the doors to the wardrobe.

Not a great pic - perhaps someone has a clearer one.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

[AnneGuedes]

I just think that the position of a door as described in a verbal account by one witness - as opposed, say , to a photograph or CCTV footage of that door being open at a given time - is too flimsy a piece of evidence or a clue.

The position of the door in itself is not an issue. The issue is that the witness said the door wasn't as he had left it.

[AnneGuedes]

The front door to the apartment seems to have been quite substantial, in keeping with the design of a lot of doors in this part of the Mediterranean.

If you scroll down to the picture entitled 'The Wardrobe' you can see the bedroom door there. Looks like a relatively cheap plywood door not unlike the doors to the wardrobe.

Not a great pic - perhaps someone has a clearer one.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

Atlantic Ocean.
cupboards doors are about half thinner than doors.