Ocean Club G was busier than Piccadilly so how come nobody saw anything?

[Cariad]

Actually,  the to'ing and fro'ing to the apartments was more frequent than that

9.00pm  Mathew Oldfield is in around the apartments checking
9.05pm  Gerry McCann
9.15pm  Jane Tanner
9:20pm Innocentman.
9.25pm  Russell O'Brien and Mathew Oldfield   (  Russell stays in his apartment )
9.40pm  Jane Tanner
9.45pm  Russell O Brien  ( returning from his apartment )
10.00pm  Kate McCann

This was an apartment that was patrolled very, very frequently,  and with no obvious  methodology being employed  ...  Gerry checking just 5 minutes after Mathew had done so,  for instance,  and Russell checking just 10 minutes after  his partner Jane had   

Is it  'likely'  therefore that an abductor would select it as the one to take a child from  ?

I added Innocentman in the 9:20 slot Icabod...

[icabodcrane]

I added Innocentman in the 9:20 slot Icabod...

Thanks Cariad  ...  there were so many people milling around that night it's hard to keep track   ...  I suppose Jez Wilkins should be added to  that list too,  seeing as he was strolling  the street with a pushchair

[jassi]

He would have walked along approach roads as well, not just backwards and forwards along the same bit of street. I forget just how long he pushed that chair for that evening, but presumably he would have covered a fair area in the time, all with no sign of any possible abductor.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Whenever I have alluded to the fact that Rua Martins was actually quite a busy thoroughfare in terms of parental traffic and other holiday makers and local residents, anyone actually familiar with PdL has pointed out to me that the place has an exceptionally tranquil feel to it at night and there is hardly anyone wandering around.

I do remember Sadie and Anne making this point to me - perhaps they could clarify.

I certainly agree with Admin and others that according to the picture painted by the rogatory statements, there seem to have been a lot of people on that street on those nights. Any abduction would have to have been very well planned, probably with a plan B and maybe a plan C, to take account for the fact that movements, however carefully watched prior to the night itself, were essentially unpredictable.

I have always said that 'bundleman' walking out across the top of that road - whether he knew Gerry and Jez were standing there or not - was like walking into the lion's den, and could never have been part of any sensible abduction plan.

[AnneGuedes]

No reasonable answer has ever been given to that question pathfinder

And now there's another to add to it  ...   how could the innocent father carrying his child across the road fail to notice the three people standing in the street  ?

Perhaps he did though  ...  perhaps that is why Scotland Yard are convinced that it was him Jane Tanner saw at that moment, ,  and not an abductor

How could JW fail to notice Innocentman ?

[AnneGuedes]

I have always said that 'bundleman' walking out across the top of that road - whether he knew Gerry and Jez were standing there or not - was like walking into the lion's den, and could never have been part of any sensible abduction plan.

Would you say that Smithman coming from a deserted zone but walking towards a more animated (met 9 persons) one was "part of any sensible abduction plan" ?

Vol II, 469 to 470a - Witness statement of Maria Manuela Martins da Silva 2007.05.08

[Sherlock Holmes]

Would you say that Smithman coming from a deserted zone but walking towards a more animated (met 9 persons) one was "part of any sensible abduction plan" ?

Vol II, 469 to 470a - Witness statement of Maria Manuela Martins da Silva 2007.05.08

Definitely not. I wrote at length about this on an earlier thread.

The Smith sighting is even harder to explain in terms of a planned abduction than that of bundleman, because it is very difficult to explain why having someone parading round the town with an abducted child could have been part of an organised plan, possibly involving a group of accomplices. The absence of a car, as many of us have remarked, is a big problem for anyone wanting to argue that Smithman was an abductor, or part of a team of abductors - who all appear to have been carless.

Even if there was a plan and something went wrong - very possible - it is hard to believe that parading through the town would be any kind of plan B.

Where this leaves us I don't know. The question of why Smithman appears to be reluctant to identify himself as an innocent parent, as bundleman did, remains.

[pathfinder73]

It's not if Madeleine was already outside the apartment.

[Sherlock Holmes]

It's not if Madeleine was already outside the apartment.

What do you mean, pathfinder?

[pathfinder73]

There's 3 possibilities:

1. Abduction
2. Madeleine left the apartment
3. She wasn't in there at 8.30pm

[Sherlock Holmes]

There's 3 possibilities:

1. Abduction
2. Madeleine left the apartment
3. She wasn't in there at 8.30pm

I'm still not sure exactly what you're referring to when you say she was already outside...

[pathfinder73]

It's a possibility and you have to cover every possibility in any investigation. Is this hard to understand?

1. Kate left the door a little open before they left re diary.
2. Gerry on his check at 9.05pm finds the door open which he said was strange to others and he closes It back to a little bit open.
3. Mathew on his check at 9.30pm finds the door open again.

1. An abductor was hiding in the apartment which could explain the moving door.
2. Madeleine left the room sometime after Gerry's check and before Mathew arrived. She opened the door again.
3. Someone was wrong about the door.
4. It was part of a plan to make it look like an abduction.

[Wonderfulspam]

It's a possibility and you have to cover every possibility in any investigation. Is this hard to understand?

1. Kate left the door a little open before they left re diary.
2. Gerry on his check at 9.05pm finds the door open and he closes It back to a little bit open.
3. Mathew on his check at 9.30pm finds the door open again.

1. An abductor was hiding in the apartment which explains the moving door.
2. Madeleine left the room sometime after Gerry's check and before Mathew arrived. She opened the door again.
3. Someone was wrong about the door.

Considering Kate & Gerry couldn't agree with each other (or themselves) as to wether Madeleine was sleeping in her bed or on top of it, it is of no suprise that they can't agree on the position of the bedroom door.

[jassi]

It's a possibility and you have to cover every possibility in any investigation. Is this hard to understand?

1. Kate left the door a little open before they left re diary.
2. Gerry on his check at 9.05pm finds the door open which he said was strange to others and he closes It back to a little bit open.
3. Mathew on his check at 9.30pm finds the door open again.

1. An abductor was hiding in the apartment which could explain the moving door.
2. Madeleine left the room sometime after Gerry's check and before Mathew arrived. She opened the door again.
3. Someone was wrong about the door.

If Kate had left the door open a little, would Gerry really know the precise angle at which it was left, so that he could comment on it later ?

As Gerry and MO had both been in into 5A, why would Kate expect the door to be at precisely the same angle as when she left it ?

[pathfinder73]

They made a big point about the door. It's clearly written in her diary. Gerry talked about it being half open when he checked.

Pages 891 to 903 Gerald McCann 10 May 2007

"----- He followed the normal route up to the rear door, which being open he only had to move [slide] it, that being the way in which he entered [was entering] the lounge, he noted that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought strange, having then put together the thought of MADELEINE having got up to go to sleep in his bedroom so as to avoid the noise produced [created] by her siblings. In this way he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and is certain of this, that the three were sleeping deeply. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how he had already previously described, [then] going to the bathroom. Everything else was normal, the blinds, curtains and windows closed, very dark, there only being the light that came from the lounge."