The timings of Jeremy's calls to Julie and to the police.

[Myster]

You're a right little rummager, our Holly... never heard those tapes before! 
But what a load of absolute twaddle!!! 

Said he rang Julie at 10pm, but never mentioned what he did tell her, i.e. - "Tonights the night!",
or anything about ringing her again at 3am to say - "Everything's going well... there's trouble at the farm!"

Yet he managed to remember what his dad said - "Please come over, your sister has gone crazy and has the gun" (note: not your rifle!)... so he wastes time trying to dial back... TWICE!!... then instead of getting his butt over there sharpish, wastes another ten minutes thumbing through a telephone directory for what should have been a 999 emergency call.

Mind you, Bamber's well practiced, having had thirty years to get it off pat!

[Holly Goodhead]

You're a right little rummager, our Holly... never heard those tapes before! 
But what a load of absolute twaddle!!! 

Said he rang Julie at 10pm, but never mentioned what he did tell her, i.e. - "Tonights the night!",
or anything about ringing her again at 3am to say - "Everything's going well... there's trouble at the farm!"

Yet he managed to remember what his dad said - "Please come over, your sister has gone crazy and has the gun" (note: not your rifle!)... so he wastes time trying to dial back... TWICE!!... then instead of getting his butt over there sharpish, wastes another ten minutes thumbing through a telephone directory for what should have been a 999 emergency call.

Mind you, Bamber's well practiced, having had thirty years to get it off pat!

Lol he only had 70 seconds in the Daily Mirror clip!  Surprised prisoners are allowed to air their grievances this way.

If the call happened as JB said it did then I can understand why he reacted the way he did:

-  JB would think the situation was manageable, hence NB was calling JB

- The call ended abruptly before JB could ask what was required of him

- JB attempted to call back and was unable to do so as the line was engaged.  He may well have thought NB was on the phone to someone else.

I can understand JB not really knowing what to do especially given NB's reluctance to involve "organisations" in his affairs and his preference to keep family matters private.  As far as JB was concerned the matter was not necessarily critical.  He may have thought if he rang the local station they would send a local patrol car and it would be low-key.  Whereas 999 it would be all sirens and flashing lights.

[Caroline]

JB initially said that he received a call from his father at 03:10 and that he immediately called the police (after looking up the number which took 10 mins). Since the (so called) finding of Jeremy's phone log, the claims are now that he called police at 03:36 (to coincide with the time on the log). Why and how could there be such a discrepancy?  Memory doesn't get better with time so early recollections about timings surely carry more weight. Also any 'new' evidence would have to fit the original tale, rather than create a new one to include it?

[Holly Goodhead]

JB initially said that he received a call from his father at 03:10 and that he immediately called the police (after looking up the number which took 10 mins). Since the (so called) finding of Jeremy's phone log, the claims are now that he called police at 03:36 (to coincide with the time on the log). Why and how could there be such a discrepancy?  Memory doesn't get better with time so early recollections about timings surely carry more weight. Also any 'new' evidence would have to fit the original tale, rather than create a new one to include it?

I'm not really sure of the point(s) you're endeavouring to make?  However firstly JB did not immediately call the police.  He said he attempted to recall WHF at least twice and heard the engaged tone.  We do not have JB's original WS on this forum and since a certain person banned me for life from The Jeremy Bamber forum I am unable to access it to check out his original claim over the time!  No concrete audit trail exists re the phone calls that could be considered reliable eg digital/satellite technology.  How did JB gauge the time of the call?  Did he look at a clock immediately?  And if so was the clock checked for accuracy? 

If JB received a call as he claims he was unlikely to think at the time 'I had better call the speaking clock before doing anything to make a note in my diary of the time dad called.  I will need this for my WS's, police interviews and trial when I am accused of murdering my entire immediate family' 

[Caroline]

I'm not really sure of the point(s) you're endeavouring to make?  However firstly JB did not immediately call the police.  He said he attempted to recall WHF at least twice and heard the engaged tone.  We do not have JB's original WS on this forum and since a certain person banned me for life from The Jeremy Bamber forum I am unable to access it to check out his original claim over the time!  No concrete audit trail exists re the phone calls that could be considered reliable eg digital/satellite technology.  How did JB gauge the time of the call?  Did he look at a clock immediately?  And if so was the clock checked for accuracy? 

If JB received a call as he claims he was unlikely to think at the time 'I had better call the speaking clock before doing anything to make a note in my diary of the time dad called.  I will need this for my WS's, police interviews and trial when I am accused of murdering my entire immediate family' 

The 'point' is that his initial story was changed re timings to fit in a call from Neville (I thought I made it clear but oh well). Jeremy gave the time of 03:10 for the initial call and at no point did he state that it took him over 20 minutes to make the call to police. At various times he claimed that he thought his dad might have been already hurt and to West, that he sounded terrified. To argue that he would wait over 20 minutes before calling police is too far fetched and also changing the times to suit a new avenue is suspicious. By the way, I didn't ban you for life, I banned you for a week! 

I'm sure there was no need to call the speaking clock, I'm sure he had a clock and a watch and when someone calls in the early hours, you tend to look at the time! 

[Holly Goodhead]

The 'point' is that his initial story was changed re timings to fit in a call from Neville (I thought I made it clear but oh well). Jeremy gave the time of 03:10 for the initial call and at no point did he state that it took him over 20 minutes to make the call to police. At various times he claimed that he thought his dad might have been already hurt and to West, that he sounded terrified. To argue that he would wait over 20 minutes before calling police is too far fetched and also changing the times to suit a new avenue is suspicious. By the way, I didn't ban you for life, I banned you for a week! 

I'm sure there was no need to call the speaking clock, I'm sure he had a clock and a watch and when someone calls in the early hours, you tend to look at the time! 

JB's initial WS re the 3.10am call
The accounts that JB thought NB was already physically injured
West's WS re JB claiming NB sounded terrified (I don't disbelieve this but would like to see the doc evidence)

I have already posted that imo it is not inconceivable that JB phoned JM prior to phoning EP to discuss the matter and seek her opinion:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5559.msg198101#msg198101

Whether JB automatically looked at a clock/watch is highly subjective.  You might.  I might.  Doesn't mean to say that JB did 

[Caroline]

(I thought I made it clear but oh well) unlike you I don't have the benefit of all the docs on Blue to hand as a certain poster banned me for a week/life for making jibes at Clappy and Mingham    I find it interesting that you have followed me here.  If the truth be known I think you are really rather fond of me 

May I suggest you post the documentary evidence:

JB's initial WS re the 3.10am call
The accounts that JB thought NB was already physically injured
West's WS re JB claiming NB sounded terrified (I don't disbelieve this but would like to see the doc evidence)

I have already posted that imo it is not inconceivable that JB phoned JM prior to phoning EP to discuss the matter and seek her opinion:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5559.msg198101#msg198101

Whether JB automatically looked at a clock/watch is highly subjective.  You might.  I might.  Doesn't mean to say that JB did 

I'll look for the docs and post them later (JB's and Wests WS). As for calling Julie first, when I asked him he said he called the police first. Also, if he wasn't sure about timings, surely he'd have said so but he said 'about 03:10' and even though the word 'about' is included, it's still quite specific.

Oh and I didn't follow you here, I was 'invited' to join  BUT I have no problem with you and I find your posts (about the case) interesting.

[Holly Goodhead]

I'll look for the docs and post them later (JB's and Wests WS). As for calling Julie first, when I asked him he said he called the police first. Also, if he wasn't sure about timings, surely he'd have said so but he said 'about 03:10' and even though the word 'about' is included, it's still quite specific.

Oh and I didn't follow you here, I was 'invited' to join  BUT I have no problem with you and I find your posts (about the case) interesting.

Look forward to reading the docs.  Anything you have to support your claims that JB claims NB was already hurt would be good too 

Interesting that you have engaged in communication with JB and asked him questions about the case.  I have, as you know from my posts, engaged in communication with JB but have never asked him a single question about the case.  The reason I haven't is that I just don't feel he can really tell me anything.  If he's innocent what would he know that I don't?  If he's guilty he's unlikely to answer truthfully. 

I personally think he probably called JM first but feels embarrassed about admitting it.  What would be the purpose of calling JM after EP?  I think he called JM to sound her out.  If not why wake her and others at a very unsociable hour?  Even if he was unsure of the exact time he must have known it was late at night/early morning, a week day and others had work/lectures to attend the following day?

Well unlike you I joined here of my own free will many months prior to my ban.  I didn't need a personal invitation, I took the bull by the horns    Bet you were surprised when I popped up with a post count    You cant keep a good dog down 

[adam]

(I thought I made it clear but oh well) unlike you I don't have the benefit of all the docs on Blue to hand as a certain poster banned me for a week/life for making jibes at Clappy and Mingham    I find it interesting that you have followed me here.  If the truth be known I think you are really rather fond of me 

May I suggest you post the documentary evidence:

JB's initial WS re the 3.10am call
The accounts that JB thought NB was already physically injured
West's WS re JB claiming NB sounded terrified (I don't disbelieve this but would like to see the doc evidence)

I have already posted that imo it is not inconceivable that JB phoned JM prior to phoning EP to discuss the matter and seek her opinion:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5559.msg198101#msg198101

Whether JB automatically looked at a clock/watch is highly subjective.  You might.  I might.  Doesn't mean to say that JB did 

Jeremy ringing Julie to seek her opinion  .

He had already rang the police who had told him what to do. The police asked him why he phoned Julie. He said 'no comment'.

[Holly Goodhead]

Jeremy ringing Julie to seek her opinion  .

He had already rang the police who had told him what to do. The police asked him why he phoned Julie. He said 'no comment'.

Yes.  In her initial WS she said she had a good friendly relationship with the whole family and was better able to communicate with SC whereas JB would get stuck for words so why not?  If JB was unsure of what action to take and JM was familiar with the family and SC why wouldn't he phone her to discuss?  She was his girlfriend.  I might have done similar with a boyfriend.  There's no precedent for these sorts of events.  If you found yourself in such a situation you might have done similar.  It's ok with the benefit of hindsight saying what you think you would or wouldn't have done:

 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=282.0;attach=1010

It's all subjective Adam.  There's no evidence whatsoever that NB called police or didn't.  Or that JB called JM first or second.  Please remember it was over a month after the tragedy that JB was grilled about the phone calls.  Meanwhile he had buried 5 members of him family, numbed out on booze, cannabis and prescription drugs and bedded several women.  A bit hazy I would say  &%+((£  If you don't believe NB called JB then I think its extremely unlikely that you're going to change your mind by anything I might say.  Likewise I doubt there's anything you can say that will make me change my mind.  You need to understand how beliefs are formed. 

The police were attempting to tie JB in knots.  They were notorious throughout the 80's for doing this often with disastrous outcomes eg many of the high profile MoJ's of the 80's involve police misconduct during interviews.

Btw I assume the favour I asked in a pm is a no-goer?

[adam]

Yes Julie did say she got on better with Sheila than Jeremy did.

Perhaps Neville should have called her as well. He seemed to call everyone else.

[Caroline]

Look forward to reading the docs.  Anything you have to support your claims that JB claims NB was already hurt would be good too 

Interesting that you have engaged in communication with JB and asked him questions about the case.  I have, as you know from my posts, engaged in communication with JB but have never asked him a single question about the case.  The reason I haven't is that I just don't feel he can really tell me anything.  If he's innocent what would he know that I don't?  If he's guilty he's unlikely to answer truthfully. 

I personally think he probably called JM first but feels embarrassed about admitting it.  What would be the purpose of calling JM after EP?  I think he called JM to sound her out.  If not why wake her and others at a very unsociable hour?  Even if he was unsure of the exact time he must have known it was late at night/early morning, a week day and others had work/lectures to attend the following day?

Well unlike you I joined here of my own free will many months prior to my ban.  I didn't need a personal invitation, I took the bull by the horns    Bet you were surprised when I popped up with a post count    You cant keep a good dog down 

I have no other reason for wanting to write to JB other than to ask stuff about the case but Initially I just sent an email on the email a prisoner site (mentioned on the OS). I just wished him well after watching CTSB. I didn't realise he would get my address so was a bit taken aback when I got the first letter.

I think he called JM first as well but not for the reason you do, I think he called to back-up his story that his father called him. What better than waking up the whole household - not just one witness but several! Of course he knew he would wake them all - that was the intention!

Good on you for grabbing the bulls horns (whatever turns you on) - not sure what you mean by a 'post count'? I have a good dog - he's actually lying down as I type!! 

I haven't forgotten abut the docs!!

[Holly Goodhead]

Yes Julie did say she got on better with Sheila than Jeremy did.

Perhaps Neville should have called her as well. He seemed to call everyone else.

You're not by any chance being facetious, are you?  &%+((£

Now who else did NB call on that fateful night/morning?  Imo JB only.  I don't believe there was a call from NB to EP.

[Holly Goodhead]

I have no other reason for wanting to write to JB other than to ask stuff about the case but Initially I just sent an email on the email a prisoner site (mentioned on the OS). I just wished him well after watching CTSB. I didn't realise he would get my address so was a bit taken aback when I got the first letter.

I think he called JM first as well but not for the reason you do, I think he called to back-up his story that his father called him. What better than waking up the whole household - not just one witness but several! Of course he knew he would wake them all - that was the intention!


I haven't forgotten abut the docs!!

I've never understood the general claim that JB invented the call from NB and phoned JM to provide some sort of alibi.  It doesn't prove anything as evidenced by the fact we are discussing/debating/disputing it nearly 3 decades later! I can't recall the person that answered the phone but it wasn't JM.  If JB wanted several witnesses, as you claim, why not discuss the matter with him/her too before getting put through to JM?  I don't believe he did discuss?  In fact I am not sure what was said with the person who answered the phone?  When JM changed her version of events she said JB said in his 10pm phone call "Tonights the night".  She has never claimed that part of JB's plan was to call her after carrying out his murderous plan to provide an alibi of sorts.  Why not?  Afterthought on JB's part?  JM wanted to hold back?  Or JB genuinely phoned JM to seek her opinion having received the call from NB?


Back maybe tomorrow/early next week.  I'll watch out for the docs.

[Caroline]

I've never understood the general claim that JB invented the call from NB and phoned JM to provide some sort of alibi.  It doesn't prove anything as evidenced by the fact we are discussing/debating/disputing it nearly 3 decades later! I can't recall the person that answered the phone but it wasn't JM.  If JB wanted several witnesses, as you claim, why not discuss the matter with him/her too before getting put through to JM?  I don't believe he did discuss?  In fact I am not sure what was said with the person who answered the phone?  When JM changed her version of events she said JB said in his 10pm phone call "Tonights the night".  She has never claimed that part of JB's plan was to call her after carrying out his murderous plan to provide an alibi of sorts.  Why not?  Afterthought on JB's part?  JM wanted to hold back?  Or JB genuinely phoned JM to seek her opinion having received the call from NB?


Back maybe tomorrow/early next week.  I'll watch out for the docs.

If you think he's innocent, you perhaps can't see the call as quite calculating but why call JM at all - just call the police or go over there. The fact that he called JM (who could be no use to him whatsoever) is (to me) suspect. I don't fully believe JM's version either and think there is a lot more that she didn't say.

I actually wasn't surprised by your post count because I didn't notice it - soz! 

We don't share a brush, he doesn't have bad breath (he's only young) and he ain't allowed on the sofa (he wouldn't fit on the sofa)