The timings of Jeremy's calls to Julie and to the police.

[Holly Goodhead]

And? if after calling GH, Jeremy depressed the button, the call would be ended. The expert witness wasn't saying what did happen, he's just explaining what would have happened in either case. I'm saying Jeremy hung up the call (depressed the button). You can't say he didn't - we don't know but it's my theory and I'm entitled to it!

There is only one way to find out how the old phone system worked and that's to ask an old BT engineer - you continue speculating though - if that works for you 

I don't know how I can make it clearer; the expert testimony at trial was based on  NB abandoning the call ie not terminating the call as in depressing the cradle.  Your sceario involves JB terminating the call at WHF ie depressing the cradle.  If I was that bothered, and I'm not, I'm sure I could find a young BT engineer with good historical knowledge.  I'll leave you to your old BT engineers.  You seem to have a thing for old BT engineers.  Would this be pre-privatisation when they came complete with the prerequisite beard and union card at the ready?     

[Caroline]

I don't know how I can make it clearer; the expert testimony at trial was based on  NB abandoning the call ie not terminating the call as in depressing the cradle.  Your sceario involves JB terminating the call at WHF ie depressing the cradle.  If I was that bothered, and I'm not, I'm sure I could find a young BT engineer with good historical knowledge.  I'll leave you to your old BT engineers.  You seem to have a thing for old BT engineers.  Would this be pre-privatisation when they came complete with the prerequisite beard and union card at the ready?   

Perhaps you need to make clear what you mean by 'abandoning'? Hung up? Depressed the button? Sat on it? It all amounts to the same! If all you want is information, then an old BT engineer (who actually worked on the system) is your best bet! Not sure about beards or union cards - I tend not to stereotype 

[John]

Didn't Jerry say the phone went dead ie click followed by silence.

[Caroline]

Didn't Jerry say the phone went dead ie click followed by silence.

Yep, which means he could have called from WHF himself, because such a scenario would simply involve him hanging up the phone (after calling GH) and placing the receiver on the worktop.

[Holly Goodhead]

Caroline/John are you able to supply your source re the "click" please?  First I've heard of a "click".

[Holly Goodhead]

Perhaps you need to make clear what you mean by 'abandoning'? Hung up? Depressed the button? Sat on it? It all amounts to the same! If all you want is information, then an old BT engineer (who actually worked on the system) is your best bet! Not sure about beards or union cards - I tend not to stereotype 

Well I know you have a penchant for hairy men from sparsely populated islands so just thought a bearded, pipe smoking, sandal wearing, BT engineer from the 80's pre privatisation with lefty views might be your type 

I've used the same terminology as in the CoA doc.  Its not my fault you're a thick Numpty Northerner   

[Caroline]

Well I know you have a penchant for hairy men from sparsely populated islands so just thought a bearded, pipe smoking, sandal wearing, BT engineer from the 80's pre privatisation with lefty views might be your type 

I've used the same terminology as in the CoA doc.  Its not my fault you're a thick Numpty Northerner 

If only you knew as much as you think you do or were as funny as you believe. Thick am I? Least I understand how the phones worked back then  How do you abandon a call without hanging up and how does the phone know if the button was depressed or the handset replaced and then immediately removed and placed on the work top? And how would an operator be able to tell the difference? I'll give you a clue - they're the same thing, with the same result!  Oh and are you one of southerners who can't pronounce the 'T' in thick and just ends up being 'fick'  *&*%£

[Holly Goodhead]

If only you knew as much as you think you do or were as funny as you believe. Thick am I? Least I understand how the phones worked back then  How do you abandon a call without hanging up and how does the phone know if the button was depressed or the handset replaced and then immediately removed and placed on the work top? And how would an operator be able to tell the difference? I'll give you a clue - they're the same thing, with the same result!  Oh and are you one of southerners who can't pronounce the 'T' in thick and just ends up being 'fick'  *&*%£

Unlike some I freely admit there are many aspects of the case that I know very little about:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg199301#msg199301

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5638.msg200342#msg200342

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5733.msg203456#msg203456

I don't need to demonstrate my competence.  Its a forum full of armchair sleuths.

SOH is very subjective ('one man's meat is another man's poision) but its widely accepted on both forums that you are devoid of one so if you don't find some of my comments amusing I don't think I'll be losing sleep over it   *&*%£

Its not about you understanding how the phones worked back then its about what the jury were told at trial. 

Abandon a call without terminating it

A calls B.  B answers.  A and B engage in dialogue.  A leaves phone on kitchen work top without ending the call (perhaps intending to resume dialogue with B after some distraction).

Terminating a call

A calls B.  B answers.  A and B engage in dialogue.  A or some other person A's end, ends call by depressing cradle.

Lets get this straight there never was and there never will be any conclusive evidence showing whether JB is guilty as charged or the victim of a MoJ based on any aspect of the phone calls.

You have made positive comments re my posts on more than one occasion:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5638.msg199690#msg199690

How many time I have made positive comments re yours  *&*%£

I pay very little attention to anything you say as I find you insincere and very capricious as indicated above and your change of stances like musical chairs: guilty, innocent, guilty:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2931.msg103751.html#msg103751

[Caroline]

Unlike some I freely admit there are many aspects of the case that I know very little about:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5594.msg199301#msg199301

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5638.msg200342#msg200342

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5733.msg203456#msg203456

I don't need to demonstrate my competence.  Its a forum full of armchair sleuths.

SOH is very subjective ('one man's meat is another man's poision) but its widely accepted on both forums that you are devoid of one so if you don't find some of my comments amusing I don't think I'll be losing sleep over it   *&*%£

Its not about you understanding how the phones worked back then its about what the jury were told at trial. 

Abandon a call without terminating it

A calls B.  B answers.  A and B engage in dialogue.  A leaves phone on kitchen work top without ending the call (perhaps intending to resume dialogue with B after some distraction).

Terminating a call

A calls B.  B answers.  A and B engage in dialogue.  A or some other person A's end, ends call by depressing cradle.

Lets get this straight there never was and there never will be any conclusive evidence showing whether JB is guilty as charged or the victim of a MoJ based on any aspect of the phone calls.

You have made positive comments re my posts on more than one occasion:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5638.msg199690#msg199690

How many time I have made positive comments re yours  *&*%£

I pay very little attention to anything you say as I find you insincere and very capricious as indicated above and your change of stances like musical chairs: guilty, innocent, guilty:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2931.msg103751.html#msg103751

If you're not interested in what I say - then stop directing questions my way. Your posts seem to belie your 'not interested' claim. If indeed you are not interested, this should be the last time you reply (hopefully) 

I'll change my mind as many times as I see fit and if it winds you up, all to the good 

You obviously have your wires crossed because we weren't discussing what the jury were told re: phone calls, we were talking about whether the call could be traced. What the jury were told or not told, has no bearing on what 'actually happened' as the witness was speaking 'in general terms'. Jeremy said the phone went dead but to an operator breaking into the line, it would make no difference if the call was abandoned or terminated.

You do 'sometimes' write some good posts when you're not attempting to 'try' and put one over on someone else. Then you just come over as spiteful and attention seeking. 

As for your comment on competence - I think you brought that subject up first, so kindly remember your response when questioning other people's in future!

[John]

Jeremy said the phone went dead ie someone terminated the call from WHF.   He said this of course to avoid having to answer questions about background noise such as voices or shouting.

Fact is, the entire 'Nevill phoned Jeremy' story was a fabrication simply intended to give substance to the 'Sheila did it' fairytale.  Had Nevill actually phoned Jeremy, he (Jeremy) would have heard Sheila in the background otherwise Nevill would have given him much more information or would not have terminated the call in the way it was alleged.  Are we expected to believe a deranged Sheila was giving Nevill hand signals?   All too daft for words!

[Caroline]

Jeremy said the phone went dead ie someone terminated the call from WHF.   He said this of course to avoid having to answer questions about background noise such as voices or shouting.

Fact is, the entire 'Nevill phoned Jeremy' story was a fabrication simply intended to give substance to the 'Sheila did it' fairytale.  Had Nevill actually phoned Jeremy, he (Jeremy) would have heard Sheila in the background otherwise Nevill would have given him much more information or would not have terminated the call in the way it was alleged.  Are we expected to believe a deranged Sheila was giving Nevill hand signals?   All too daft for words!

I agree, the call was designed to create the impression that Jeremy was elsewhere when the family were killed. If he was answering a call from his father when it was all kicking off, he couldn't have been involved.

[Holly Goodhead]

Jeremy said the phone went dead ie someone terminated the call from WHF.   He said this of course to avoid having to answer questions about background noise such as voices or shouting.

Fact is, the entire 'Nevill phoned Jeremy' story was a fabrication simply intended to give substance to the 'Sheila did it' fairytale.  Had Nevill actually phoned Jeremy, he (Jeremy) would have heard Sheila in the background otherwise Nevill would have given him much more information or would not have terminated the call in the way it was alleged.  Are we expected to believe a deranged Sheila was giving Nevill hand signals?   All too daft for words!

As with much of this case the communication is unclear and ambiguous surrounding the phone call.  JB refers to the call as "dead" in his WS:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4566

The CoA doc refers to the call as "abandoned":

68. There was no evidence of telephone billing information of the sort which would be available these days. There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant. If such a sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone.

I am even more inclined to see the phone call as being legit now it seems unlikely NB said "Please come over".  If someone is woken at circa 3am to be greeted by the phone ringing and a brief message like "Sheila's gone crazy shes got a gun" and then the call goes dead or is abandoned I'm not sure we can expect the recipient to be in a position to impart further information?  How do you know NB was in a position to impart further info if the situation had become critical with shots being fired elsewhere?  If June screamed out NB's natural reaction would surely be to drop the phone and go to her aid?  Often airlines etc make mayday calls with limited info being imparted before the plane falls off the radar and crashes.  Its what happens when someone makes a distress/SOS call. 

As far as I can see the only fact that relates to the call is the fact that there are no facts to prove or disprove it was made.

[adam]

Sheila had 'gone' 'crazy'.

It was too late for Neville and June. Sheila was not just agitated. She was past that now & there was no point trying to reason with her.

She was holding a gun which is used for shooting rabbits. And had once gone on a shooting trip. I think.

As Sheila had 'gone' 'crazy' with the 'gun',  there was only one person who could save the day. Stand up Mr Jeremy Bamber.

Neville ran to the bedroom phone. Which wasn't there. So ran to the study phone, before changing his mind again and deciding to use the kitchen phone. Which was actually the bedroom phone plugged in downstairs. Still with me ?

Sadly Jeremy was tired after sitting on his tractor all day. So rather than save everyone,  just managed a stroll around WHF with those nice police men he had (eventually) telephoned.  But he did draw them a map.

Julie was summoned over to drool at her hero. After breakfast of course. Jeremy was starving.

[adam]

I thought Jeremy would have got on his tractor and driven through the front door. Rugged Roger Moore was doing those sorts of things in the 80's & he was in his 50's.