The timings of Jeremy's calls to Julie and to the police.

[adam]

I don't believe Jeremy called Julie as an alibi attempt. If he had thought about it beforehand he would know a call would cause more harm than good. He probably didn't think about it.

As he said to Julie, he thought he was 'watertight' and it was an 'open and shut case'. He was right. At first.

So he expected his 3am phone call to Julie would never even be discussed. Sadly it was discussed, and has since done Jeremy no favours.

The first chance he had to justify his call to Julie was in his police interview. His answer 'no comment'.

Phoning Julie at 3am does not establish an alibi in any way for the 10pm - 3.00am period. In fact, the judge suggested he called Julie before receiving Neville's call.

There are lots of reasons he called Julie at 3am.  Excitement, wanting to boast & giving Julie discreet advanced warning that she will have to come to Essex later that morning. Two hours later Jeremy rang Julie to say 'I've only got one 10p. A police car is coming to pick you up.

It may have been a spur of the moment decision, he had just massacred his family so not thinking rationally.

[Caroline]

I don't believe Jeremy called Julie as an alibi attempt. If he had thought about it beforehand he would know a call would cause more harm than good. He probably didn't think about it.

As he said to Julie, he thought he was 'watertight' and it was an 'open and shut case'. He was right. At first.

So he expected his 3am phone call to Julie would never even be discussed. Sadly it was discussed, and has since done Jeremy no favours.

The first chance he had to justify his call to Julie was in his police interview. His answer 'no comment'.

Phoning Julie at 3am does not establish an alibi in any way for the 10pm - 3.00am period. In fact, the judge suggested he called Julie before receiving Neville's call.

There are lots of reasons he called Julie at 3am.  Excitement, wanting to boast & giving Julie discreet advanced warning that she will have to come to Essex later that morning. Two hours later Jeremy rang Julie to say 'I've only got one 10p. A police car is coming to pick you up.

It may have been a spur of the moment decision, he had just massacred his family so not thinking rationally.

He didn't think it would be discussed? There were other people in the flat who also heard the call so that would be a pretty dumb assumption on his part. Also, if he wanted to keep it quiet, he'd have told Julie not to mention it because she does mention it in her statement!

[adam]

He didn't expect to ever be a suspect. So his actions would not be discussed.

[Caroline]

He didn't expect to ever be a suspect. So his actions would not be discussed.

As the only remaining member of the family, he would be an idiot not to imagine that he MIGHT be considered. The alleged call from Neville was his alibi, just his say so that he received one might not be enough, but if he could get others to corroborate the event (even if only through hearsay) then all to the good. The phone call makes or breaks him and it's why it could only be Sheila or Jeremy. He had to have at least considered that he'd be a suspect or wouldn't have used the phone call from Nevil as an alibi

[adam]

As the only remaining member of the family, he would be an idiot not to imagine that he MIGHT be considered. The alleged call from Neville was his alibi, just his say so that he received one might not be enough, but if he could get others to corroborate the event (even if only through hearsay) then all to the good. The phone call makes or breaks him and if why it could only be Sheila or Jeremy. He had to have at least considered that he'd be a suspect or wouldn't have used the phone call from Nevil as an alibi

You think Jeremy had planned to ring Julie when returning to WHF, as part of his plan and a strange alibi attempt. Although it in no way covers the 10pm -3am period. I believe it was more of a spur of the moment decision that he did not give much thought about.

Jeremy said 'no comment' when asked by the police a month later. Then testified that he rang Julie because he 'wanted to hear a friendly voice'. That cut no ice with the 2002 appeal judges who said it was 'remarkable' Jeremy rang Julie in these circumstances.

[adam]

Ground 4 – timing of telephone call to Julie Mugford 289. Ground 4 relates to the first telephone call made by the appellant to Julie Mugford on the night of the killing. The prosecution contended at trial that this preceded the telephone call to the police, whilst the appellant asserted that it was made after he had telephoned the police and before he left home to go to the farmhouse.

It has to be said that whichever version is right, it was remarkable that the appellant made such a call. On his own version he had just received a dramatic plea for help from his father, he had rung the police and had been asked to go to meet officers at the farm. Yet he delayed for long enough to make a telephone call to someone many miles away, who could not possibly help in the situation. However, it clearly was even less likely that he would have telephoned before he rang the police and if the call was shortly after 3 a.m. it was wholly inconsistent with his account and only consistent with the account of Julie Mugford as to the nature of that call. Thus timing of that call, if it could be determined by the jury was of importance.

[Holly Goodhead]

If you think he's innocent, you perhaps can't see the call as quite calculating but why call JM at all - just call the police or go over there. The fact that he called JM (who could be no use to him whatsoever) is (to me) suspect. I don't fully believe JM's version either and think there is a lot more that she didn't say.

I actually wasn't surprised by your post count because I didn't notice it - soz! 

We don't share a brush, he doesn't have bad breath (he's only young) and he ain't allowed on the sofa (he wouldn't fit on the sofa) 

As with the jury, posters attribute different weight to various aspects of the case.  The phone calls have never been a biggie for me.

You say why call JM?  And why not just go over there or phone the police?  The fact is you could present such a scenario to a cross section of society, remove the WHF case, and ask them what they would do and I think you would be surprised by all the variations.

We're not JB.  We don't have the intimate knowledge of NB and SC that JB had.  I put a lot of weight on NB's low opinion of the police and possibly state run services in general.  And his desire to keep family matters private.  Along with JB's understanding of these facts.  To my mind JB was very concerned about following NB's orders.  Not that I think NB was the authoritarian type - on the contrary - but I think JB held him in high esteem and wouldn't want to call it wrong by having police cars turn up sirens sounding, lights flashing at WHF only to find it was a manageable domestic and NB ends up feeling embarrassed especially being a local magistrate. 

If you didn't notice my post count then it shows you dont notice details and nuances which is unhelpful when trying to work out the WHF case  &%+((£

Sensible not letting your doggy on the sofa.  After all we wouldn't want you with a hairy bottom would we?    

[adam]

As with the jury, posters attribute different weight to various aspects of the case.  The phone calls have never been a biggie for me.

You say why call JM?  And why not just go over there or phone the police?  The fact is you could present such a scenario to a cross section of society, remove the WHF case, and ask them what they would do and I think you would be surprised by all the variations.

We're not JB.  We don't have the intimate knowledge of NB and SC that JB had.  I put a lot of weight on NB's low opinion of the police and possibly state run services in general.  And his desire to keep family matters private.  Along with JB's understanding of these facts.  To my mind JB was very concerned about following NB's orders.  Not that I think NB was the authoritarian type - on the contrary - but I think JB held him in high esteem and wouldn't want to call it wrong by having police cars turn up sirens sounding, lights flashing at WHF only to find it was a manageable domestic and NB ends up feeling embarrassed especially being a local magistrate. 

If you didn't notice my post count then it shows you dont notice details and nuances which is unhelpful when trying to work out the WHF case  &%+((£

Sensible not letting your doggy on the sofa.  After all we wouldn't want you with a hairy bottom would we?    

Yes Jeremy claimed that Neville liked to keep family matters private. Keeping to this stance throughout the trial.  Which makes it strange that Jeremy 'immediately' (well 26 minutes later) called the police, which was against his fathers wishes. Especially as Neville had obviously rang Jeremy to keep the issue 'in house'.

Hang on, isn't Jeremy now saying Neville called the police ?

[Caroline]

for JB's WS's

He offers up loads of info in his WS. Sounds a bit old womanish?  He's just someone who provides loads of detail.  Look how I ramble on in my posts? The fact he identified the three tv progs he watched I find insignificant.  I might find it significant if he wasn't big on detail in other areas but that's not the case is it?  Interestingly I remember when I read it the first time I thought how spooky he watched a program re miscarriages as in MoJ.  Then months later Saggie posted and made ref to it in terms of miscarrying babies.  See how minds interpret the same info differently? Unless we asked JB we would have no idea who is correct: miscarriages of justice or miscarrying babies. 

I find it interesting/sad that he states when he left everyone was happy.  If he wanted to set the scene why not lie/embellish that there was a tense atmosphere, arguing, SC was upset etc? 

No mention of the movement at the window.

Also note he states they left Colin's party at midnight to take SC home. And JM states in her WS 11.45pm  Obviously nothing sinister here just shows how estimated times of historical events can easily be out.  Don't forget it was a month until EP started drilling down with JB. 

JB - Midnight

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5576.0;attach=4541

JM - 11.45pm

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=282.0;attach=1010

3.10am is a funny time.  Normally you would say approx to the nearest 15 mins on the hour?  I thought he relied on others for the times of his call.  I thought JM phoned her friend from Goldhager on the 7th to ascertain a time for JB/his WS?  I can't get all hung up on the phone calls.  I can see how they could look suspicious if you're that way inclined but when I look at the bigger picture it stacks up in my mind.

My advice form your own opinions from your own research.  You sound like you've been looking for answers from JB and the little island man and gone off the rails/got confused.   

It is often the VERY LITTLE things that get people caught!

Jeremy didn't ask JM to tell him what time Nevill called, how would she know? He gave the time as 03:10! She may have checked on the time he called her but not for a time when Nevill (allegedly) called.

I'm not confused at all, in fact quite the opposite but I could say the same about you. My advice would be to ask him about the case or you're just wasting an opportunity to learn the truth. It's not just the things that people say that are important, but the things they avoid answering! 

[Myster]

I can't believe you just said that!   What could be clearer and more urgent than - "Please come over, Sheila's gone crazy and has the gun!"

[Holly Goodhead]

It is often the VERY LITTLE things that get people caught!

Jeremy didn't ask JM to tell him what time Nevill called, how would she know? He gave the time as 03:10! She may have checked on the time he called her but not for a time when Nevill (allegedly) called.

I'm not confused at all, in fact quite the opposite but I could say the same about you. My advice would be to ask him about the case or you're just wasting an opportunity to learn the truth. It's not just the things that people say that are important, but the things they avoid answering! 

Yes it is often the little things that catch people out  but with regards to the phone calls we do not have one single piece of reliable evidence in which to make reliable decisions about all the other pieces. 

Yes JB gave the time of 3.10am but I believe this was based on JM calling her flatmate and JB working out the approx. time from that?   According to AE JB gave the time of 3.00am. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?PHPSESSID=3t67cpcljgqmdeg39f9rpi99l4&action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2189

JB has been incarcerated for almost 30 years.  Can you remember all the details of what you were doing 30 years ago?  If he's innocent no doubt it was all very traumatic and that doesn't tend to act as an aide memoire!  He has limited access to the outside world and I honestly don't think he could help me in my understanding of the WHF case.  My letters/cards have been largely unspecific.  I have just let him know my interest in the case and that I believe he is the victim of a MoJ.  I think he is kept busy working on his case, dealing with his campaign and legal team, book authors and others.  I doubt if he even knows who I am ie remembers my letters/cards.  Why would he?  You seem to see yourself as someone important and that he should go out of  his way to answer all your queries sweating his balls off moving his floor to ceiling wall to wall docs in his cell hunting for tiny bits of paper re 'the wallet' 

[Holly Goodhead]

I can't believe you just said that!   What could be clearer and more urgent than - "Please come over, Sheila's gone crazy and has the gun!"

Clear to you Myster.  Not for JB.  He wanted more detail as per the following clip 1 in the Daily Mirror:

"...you know I need more information what, where, how you know what do you need me to do, how can I..."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151

[Holly Goodhead]

Yes Jeremy claimed that Neville liked to keep family matters private. Keeping to this stance throughout the trial.  Which makes it strange that Jeremy 'immediately' (well 26 minutes later) called the police, which was against his fathers wishes. Especially as Neville had obviously rang Jeremy to keep the issue 'in house'.

Hang on, isn't Jeremy now saying Neville called the police ?

Adam as JB lost contact with NB obviously this threw a different light on things.  Had NB been able to continue the conversation then JB would have followed through on NB's instructions.  I think the reason JB called the local police as opposed to 999 was an attempt to keep it as low-key as possible.

I think it unlikely NB called EP but I haven't looked into this enough to say one way or the other.  I guess if JB is innocent he clutches at any little thing that he feels might prove this.

[Myster]

Clear to you Myster.  Not for JB.  He wanted more detail as per the following clip 1 in the Daily Mirror:

"...you know I need more information what, where, how you know what do you need me to do, how can I..."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-jeremy-bamber-files-exclusive-audio-191151

Ominous news re. accidents, death often comes in the middle of the night, and any sensible person's reaction would be to get over there as quick as possible without dawdling.  He knew there was a call box near to Pages Lane should one be required when he arrived, or he could even have wakened the Foakes up to use theirs if necessary.

[adam]

Adam as JB lost contact with NB obviously this threw a different light on things.  Had NB been able to continue the conversation then JB would have followed through on NB's instructions.  I think the reason JB called the local police as opposed to 999 was an attempt to keep it as low-key as possible.

I think it unlikely NB called EP but I haven't looked into this enough to say one way or the other.  I guess if JB is innocent he clutches at any little thing that he feels might prove this.

Wouldn't call Chelmsford local. But then again Jeremy apparently called Witham, who mysteriously didn't answer.

Chelmsford then called Witham, and guess what ?