Lack of gunshot residue on Sheila's hands

[Holly Goodhead]

The prosecution case against JB at trial included a lack of gunshot residue on SC's hands.  This also featured at JB's 2002 CoA hearing insofar as the defence claimed the correct procedures were not followed for evidence gathering and handling.

Perhaps a lack of gunshot residue can be explained by forensics?

"A rifle or shotgun may not deposit GSR on hands, but more likely in the crook of the support arm". (Dalby et al, 2010)

"A rapid loss in numbers of GSR particles occurs from 1 to 3 hours post firearm discharge, though maximum recovery times of 1 to 48 hours have been reported". (Dalby et al, 2010)

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html

The absence of GSR does not indicate innocence.

"There are factors that contribute to particulate loss that must also be taken into consideration. For instance, suppose a firearm is discharged in a static environment (no wind or airflow). Hand samples are then collected immediately after the discharge on clean, dry hands. It would not be unusual to detect hundreds to thousands of GSR particles on these samples. Alternately, suppose a firearm was discharged outside during a windy day with inclement weather. Samples are collected several hours after the discharge, giving the subjects ample time to move, shake off, wipe, or wash their hands. In this instance, it might not be possible to find any GSR particles on the samples. This absence of gunshot residue is not an indication that the subject is innocent of discharging a firearm. All factors concerning particulate loss must be taken into account when determining if results are consistent with the aspects of a specific scenario".

http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2012/09/science-behind-gsr-separating-fact-fiction

DI Cook moved SC's hand.  Trial transcript:

Q: It would appear that the hand and arm have been moved who was responsible for that?  A: I was sir.

Q: For what purpose?  A:  To demonstrate the blood marks which were not readily visible under the wrist.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=168.0;attach=297

[anglolawyer]

The prosecution case against JB at trial included a lack of gunshot residue on SC's hands.  This also featured at JB's 2002 CoA hearing insofar as the defence claimed the correct procedures were not followed for evidence gathering and handling.

Perhaps a lack of gunshot residue can be explained by forensics?

"A rifle or shotgun may not deposit GSR on hands, but more likely in the crook of the support arm". (Dalby et al, 2010)

"A rapid loss in numbers of GSR particles occurs from 1 to 3 hours post firearm discharge, though maximum recovery times of 1 to 48 hours have been reported". (Dalby et al, 2010)

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html

The absence of GSR does not indicate innocence.

"There are factors that contribute to particulate loss that must also be taken into consideration. For instance, suppose a firearm is discharged in a static environment (no wind or airflow). Hand samples are then collected immediately after the discharge on clean, dry hands. It would not be unusual to detect hundreds to thousands of GSR particles on these samples. Alternately, suppose a firearm was discharged outside during a windy day with inclement weather. Samples are collected several hours after the discharge, giving the subjects ample time to move, shake off, wipe, or wash their hands. In this instance, it might not be possible to find any GSR particles on the samples. This absence of gunshot residue is not an indication that the subject is innocent of discharging a firearm. All factors concerning particulate loss must be taken into account when determining if results are consistent with the aspects of a specific scenario".

http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2012/09/science-behind-gsr-separating-fact-fiction

DI Cook moved SC's hand.  Trial transcript:

Q: It would appear that the hand and arm have been moved who was responsible for that?  A: I was sir.

Q: For what purpose?  A:  To demonstrate the blood marks which were not readily visible under the wrist.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=168.0;attach=297

A pity no one thought to ask these idiots why they moved the body.   

Didn't the jury try loading the magazine  in an attempt to see for themselves how tough it was to insert the final bullet?   Of course, this may have been an irrelevant exercise because there is no way of knowing the shooter operated with a full magazine.   There is also the fact the bullets were coated with beeswax (CA Lee) which would apparently result in grease being deposited on the hands of the user.   She had no grease on her hands.

I don't know enough about GSR to be able to say one or the other whether its absence is significant here.   I know it's evidence which can be abused and that there are question marks about those pristine hands and feet of hers so it's not a major part of my own thinking on this case.

[Holly Goodhead]

A pity no one thought to ask these idiots why they moved the body.   

They did as above.  Also if SC was responsible she clearly moved around after shooting the victims which based on the above would cause a loss of GSR.

Didn't the jury try loading the magazine  in an attempt to see for themselves how tough it was to insert the final bullet?   Of course, this may have been an irrelevant exercise because there is no way of knowing the shooter operated with a full magazine.   There is also the fact the bullets were coated with beeswax (CA Lee) which would apparently result in grease being deposited on the hands of the user.   She had no grease on her hands.

I believe the jury used the actual magazine which may well have been damaged from the beating NB sustained.  Dont know about the beeswax will have to look into.

I don't know enough about GSR to be able to say one or the other whether its absence is significant here.   I know it's evidence which can be abused and that there are question marks about those pristine hands and feet of hers so it's not a major part of my own thinking on this case.

Did the UK based 'experts' in the 1980's know enough about GSR to be able to say one way or the other?  Were SC's hands "pristine"?  What would we expect to find on her feet if responsible?  Dr V/CAL said words to the effect it was a lottery where she trod.  If NB was in a life and death "struggle" what about blood and sugar on his feet?

It seems to me the defence have gone along with the forensics and attempted to challenge the prosecution based on procedural errors in evidence gathering and handling as opposed to a direct attack on the forensics.

I restarted my thread on Mumsnet a few weeks back which I need to respond to so might catch you there anglolawyer if it's going to be just the two of us.

[anglolawyer]

They did as above.  Also if SC was responsible she clearly moved around after shooting the victims which based on the above would cause a loss of GSR.

You mean they moved her hand.   I mean they moved her entire body by a few inches, seemingly by pulling on her feet.   You can see it in the crime scene pics (assuming not doctored).   Astonishingly, at the 2002 appeal, the crown tried to introduce the evidence of Dr Ismail about this without apparently realising that the crime scene photos showed it was the cops, rather than the killer, who moved her.

I believe the jury used the actual magazine which may well have been damaged from the beating NB sustained.  Dont know about the beeswax will have to look into.

I got the beeswax thing from CA Lee, I think.   Not 100% on that.

Did the UK based 'experts' in the 1980's know enough about GSR to be able to say one way or the other?  Were SC's hands "pristine"?  What would we expect to find on her feet if responsible?  Dr V/CAL said words to the effect it was a lottery where she trod.  If NB was in a life and death "struggle" what about blood and sugar on his feet?

I don't know anything about the state of knowledge about GSR in the 80s.   I am discussing the struggle with Nevill elsewhere right now.   My present theory is he ran across the kitchen, knocking a few chairs over and jarring the table, closely followed by his killer who then butted him unconscious before reloading and plugging him four times through the brain.   I don't think there was a battle raging back and forth across the room IOW.

It seems to me the defence have gone along with the forensics and attempted to challenge the prosecution based on procedural errors in evidence gathering and handling as opposed to a direct attack on the forensics.

I agree.   Legal Aid was pretty good in the 80s (don't try this type of thing now, folks) so they should have been able to debunk some of it.   However, Lee tells us in her book that Bamber wanted to suggest the silencer was a plant but that Rivlin ruled that out.   I can very well imagine the defence strategy was to avoid at all costs such suggestions for fear of turning the case into a binary decision between the integrity of the police and Bamber's guilt.   Very tricky stuff.

I restarted my thread on Mumsnet a few weeks back which I need to respond to so might catch you there anglolawyer if it's going to be just the two of us.

If they had the 'boggled' emoticon I would employ it here.   Naturally, I do not post on mums net.

[Myster]

I think two forums at once is more than enough, unless you want to know the cheapest bargains at Lidl or the best variety of Pampers to buy for little Johnny.
How about this one, al...  %&5%£

[Myster]

Not sure whether you've seen this other view of the kitchen, al.  A smear of blood on the kitchen cupboard, shards of broken lampshade on the floor, and the carpet under which Nevill's watch with broken strap was found...

[attachment deleted by admin]

[puglove]

They did as above.  Also if SC was responsible she clearly moved around after shooting the victims which based on the above would cause a loss of GSR.

I believe the jury used the actual magazine which may well have been damaged from the beating NB sustained.  Dont know about the beeswax will have to look into.

Did the UK based 'experts' in the 1980's know enough about GSR to be able to say one way or the other?  Were SC's hands "pristine"?  What would we expect to find on her feet if responsible?  Dr V/CAL said words to the effect it was a lottery where she trod.  If NB was in a life and death "struggle" what about blood and sugar on his feet?

It seems to me the defence have gone along with the forensics and attempted to challenge the prosecution based on procedural errors in evidence gathering and handling as opposed to a direct attack on the forensics.

I restarted my thread on Mumsnet a few weeks back which I need to respond to so might catch you there anglolawyer if it's going to be just the two of us.

Mumsnet??? As in "why does my spag bol taste so bland" Mumsnet?

Oh Holl.     

[Holly Goodhead]

 *&*%£

I created a thread on Mumsnet re JB:

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/1975100-Jeremy-Bamber-Is-this-the-worst-MoJ-in-British-criminal-history.

The members are from all walks of life and discuss a wide range of topics.  There are actually a number of existing threads devoted to JB.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumsnet

[anglolawyer]

I think two forums at once is more than enough, unless you want to know the cheapest bargains at Lidl or the best variety of Pampers to buy for little Johnny.
How about this one, al...  %&5%£

No, that's not the one, but thanks for trying.

[Myster]

*&*%£

I created a thread on Mumsnet re JB:

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/1975100-Jeremy-Bamber-Is-this-the-worst-MoJ-in-British-criminal-history.

The members are from all walks of life and discuss a wide range of topics.  There are actually a number of existing threads devoted to JB.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumsnet

You took those words straight out of Eric Allison's mouth!  How come none of the mums agree with you?

[Holly Goodhead]

You took those words straight out of Eric Allison's mouth!  How come none of the mums agree with you?

I guess it beats being accused of writing for The Sun! 

Coz they're only capable of discussing "the cheapest bargains at Lidl" and " the best variety of Pampers to buy"  Actually I thought there was a mixture of opinion.  The media has done a fantastic job of character assassination on JB and unless one has the time and inclination to delve a little further most are happy to go along with the official line.   

[Holly Goodhead]

You mean they moved her hand.   I mean they moved her entire body by a few inches, seemingly by pulling on her feet.   You can see it in the crime scene pics (assuming not doctored).   Astonishingly, at the 2002 appeal, the crown tried to introduce the evidence of Dr Ismail about this without apparently realising that the crime scene photos showed it was the cops, rather than the killer, who moved her.

Well according to the links above any sort of movement of the hands/body can cause a loss of GSR.  I've never really understood the evidence of Dr Ismail but I think I might now!

I got the beeswax thing from CA Lee, I think.   Not 100% on that.

Yes I recall reading it in CAL' book.  First I've heard of this.  I will need to check it out.

I don't know anything about the state of knowledge about GSR in the 80s.   I am discussing the struggle with Nevill elsewhere right now.   My present theory is he ran across the kitchen, knocking a few chairs over and jarring the table, closely followed by his killer who then butted him unconscious before reloading and plugging him four times through the brain.   I don't think there was a battle raging back and forth across the room IOW.

It seems to me home grown knowledge on firearms, ballistics, GSR etc, etc in the 80's would be fairly low compared to say US and S.Africa due to the low ownership and use of firearms in the UK.  For example I note the US guys in the following vid say there's no learning curve with a.22 rifle and yet at JB's trial you needed to be a nuclear scientist to operate one.  A very careful read of the pathology report indicates to me poor NB was almost dead by the time he reached the kitchen so I'm not sure about running. 

http://thegenerationwhypodcast.com/?powerpress_pinw=982-podcast

I agree.   Legal Aid was pretty good in the 80s (don't try this type of thing now, folks) so they should have been able to debunk some of it.   However, Lee tells us in her book that Bamber wanted to suggest the silencer was a plant but that Rivlin ruled that out.   I can very well imagine the defence strategy was to avoid at all costs such suggestions for fear of turning the case into a binary decision between the integrity of the police and Bamber's guilt.   Very tricky stuff.
If they had the 'boggled' emoticon I would employ it here.   Naturally, I do not post on mums net.

I don't know enough about the machinations of trials to know whether or not it was tricky for GR to go with deliberate contamination of the silencer/a plant.  Many of the high profile MoJ's involving police wrongdoing hadn't come to light at the time of JB's trial so maybe. 

Why "naturally"?  As I explained Mumsnet has members from all walks of life, including both sexes, and covers a wide range of topics

[Myster]

The latest lubricant for Eley subsonics is paraffin wax. Perhaps this has always been used, and was mistaken for beeswax when examined in '85.

http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow

I don't believe Nevill was anywhere near dead, (although badly wounded) when he reached the kitchen. I think those 3 or 4 pistol whips with the rifle barrel to his right forearm occured there and the wristw..ch band was broken off by the impact during that incident.

ETA: the bending stress of the above on the wooden stock where it meets the metal firing mechanism housing might have been great enough to break a piece off.  Failing that the rifle could have been dropped butt end down, again having the same effect.

[anglolawyer]

Well according to the links above any sort of movement of the hands/body can cause a loss of GSR.  I've never really understood the evidence of Dr Ismail but I think I might now!

Yes I recall reading it in CAL' book.  First I've heard of this.  I will need to check it out.

It seems to me home grown knowledge on firearms, ballistics, GSR etc, etc in the 80's would be fairly low compared to say US and S.Africa due to the low ownership and use of firearms in the UK.  For example I note the US guys in the following vid say there's no learning curve with a.22 rifle and yet at JB's trial you needed to be a nuclear scientist to operate one.  A very careful read of the pathology report indicates to me poor NB was almost dead by the time he reached the kitchen so I'm not sure about running. 

http://thegenerationwhypodcast.com/?powerpress_pinw=982-podcast

I don't know enough about the machinations of trials to know whether or not it was tricky for GR to go with deliberate contamination of the silencer/a plant.  Many of the high profile MoJ's involving police wrongdoing hadn't come to light at the time of JB's trial so maybe. 

Why "naturally"?  As I explained Mumsnet has members from all walks of life, including both sexes, and covers a wide range of topics

It's generally very dangerous to base your defence on an accusation of serious impropriety and most lawyers will try to avoid that if possible.   Among other reasons, as soon as you attack the character of a prosecution witness, you bring your own character into play which means the jury gets to hear about your past.   There were rules about these things which the police knew well and played to the limit.

As I am a member of too many forums already (and not a Mum neither) I'll skip mums net for for now, although I like the idea of a matronly discussion of this very bloody murder.   Please insert emoticon of your choice here.

[Holly Goodhead]

The latest lubricant for Eley subsonics is paraffin wax. Perhaps this has always been used, and was mistaken for beeswax when examined in '85.

http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow

As resourceful as ever, thank you    It appears beeswax is commonly used as a lube for bullets.  I'm wondering if SC used hand cream what effect, if any, this would have on the various debris associated with gun fire: bullet lube, GSR.  I use the following as it comes in a pink tube  and its great for nails  but take a peep at all the ingredients.  You need to click on the ingredients tab:

 http://www.vaseline.co.uk/product/intensive-care/targeted-care/healthy-hands-stronge-nails.html

I don't believe Nevill was anywhere near dead, (although badly wounded) when he reached the kitchen. I think those 3 or 4 pistol whips with the rifle barrel to his right forearm occurred there and the wristw..ch band was broken off by the impact during that incident.

The pathologist makes it clear that had the downstairs shots not supervened the upstairs shots would have killed him.  He also describes severe pain and heavy blood loss internally and externally from the upstairs shots.  It seems to me that the severity of NB's upstairs shots was not spelled out to the jury.  Had they have been I don't believe it would have been possible to advance the idea of a "struggle" in the kitchen.  Which then kills the aga/scratch/paint on silencer.

I'm sure you're probably right about the other points but they don't preclude JB or SC?

ETA: the bending stress of the above on the wooden stock where it meets the metal firing mechanism housing might have been great enough to break a piece off.  Failing that the rifle could have been dropped butt end down, again having the same effect.

I'm sure you're probably right about the other points but they don't preclude JB or SC?