Lack of gunshot residue on Sheila's hands

[Holly Goodhead]

It's generally very dangerous to base your defence on an accusation of serious impropriety and most lawyers will try to avoid that if possible.   Among other reasons, as soon as you attack the character of a prosecution witness, you bring your own character into play which means the jury gets to hear about your past.   There were rules about these things which the police knew well and played to the limit.

Yes I can see your point especially given 30 years ago a jury were likely to be far more deferential to all concerned:  middle class law abiding landowning rellies, trainee school teacher, police, expert witnesses, judiciary.  Still think a.n.other QC could have drubbed the prosecution by attacking the forensics and pathological evidence.  When I say forensics I mean the sort of stuff we discuss eg GSR, whether the rifle and ammo used were capable of producing the draw-back effect and pathological in terms of NB being too badly injured to enter into a "struggle". 

It seems to me the prosecution pretty much trashed JB's character anyway.  How much worse does it get when prosecution witnesses state he made disparaging (to put it mildly) comments re his family.  Then break into the family firm fake a robbery and steal several hundred pounds.  Was there an element of unknown parentage/"bad blood" amongst all concerned?  Would it have made a difference had the jury have known JB's birth family were law abiding citizens? 

As I am a member of too many forums already (and not a Mum neither) I'll skip mums net for for now, although I like the idea of a matronly discussion of this very bloody murder.   Please insert emoticon of your choice here.

The forums you've mentioned you're a member of concern true crime/miscarriages of justice so maybe Mumsnet will make you into the rounded person you want to be 

"In November 2009 newspaper articles spoke of the forthcoming UK general election as "the Mumsnet election",[6][7][8] in part because mothers were regarded by politicians as key floating voters and online forums were seen as arenas in which their votes could be courted.[9] The then prime minister[10][11] and the leader of the opposition [12][13] appeared on the website's webchats in quick succession, and this was widely reported. The site faced a barrage of publicity, not all of it favourable.[14][15] Others have been dismissive of the importance of the site to politicians, suggesting Mumsnet users comprise a relatively narrow demographic. Toby Young argued that the site is full of Guardian readers and "peopled exclusively by university-educated, upper-middle-class women who are only "swing voters" in the sense that they swing between voting Labour, Lib Dem and Green".[16]

Mumsnet has become a popular resource for journalists, and discussions on the message boards have been cited in the press. Users of the site have sometimes felt that reproduction of Mumsnet discussions in the press is unwelcome, and the Daily Mail's regular "This Week on Mumsnet" column generated controversy on the site in September 2009".[17]

[Myster]

As resourceful as ever, thank you    It appears beeswax is commonly used as a lube for bullets.  I'm wondering if SC used hand cream what effect, if any, this would have on the various debris associated with gun fire: bullet lube, GSR.  I use the following as it comes in a pink tube  and its great for nails  but take a peep at all the ingredients.  You need to click on the ingredients tab:

 http://www.vaseline.co.uk/product/intensive-care/targeted-care/healthy-hands-stronge-nails.html

I don't think Ron Cook would have noticed any hand-cream of whatever flavour. This is supposed to be rubbed in until absorbed, isn't that so?

You've been conned with that particular hand-cream too. There is no proof that keratin is absorbed through the skin and miraculously becomes new skin/nail tissue. Keratin is chemically assembled within the body from amino-acids, notably from the breakdown of gelatin. You would get more benefit from eating a packet of Hartley's jelly, or making some soup from the liquid of a boiled chicken carcass. You are what you eat!

Notice that two of the main ingredients are water and glycerine. My dad used to work outdoors in all weathers and every day in winter rubbed a smidgeon of glycerine into his hands until they were dry and non-greasy. They became as smooth as a baby's bottom. Save yourself some money and invest in a large bottle of plain old glycerin, and nota bene the dictum of Muggeridge below.

[anglolawyer]

Yes I can see your point especially given 30 years ago a jury were likely to be far more deferential to all concerned:  middle class law abiding landowning rellies, trainee school teacher, police, expert witnesses, judiciary.  Still think a.n.other QC could have drubbed the prosecution by attacking the forensics and pathological evidence.  When I say forensics I mean the sort of stuff we discuss eg GSR, whether the rifle and ammo used were capable of producing the draw-back effect and pathological in terms of NB being too badly injured to enter into a "struggle". 

It seems to me the prosecution pretty much trashed JB's character anyway.  How much worse does it get when prosecution witnesses state he made disparaging (to put it mildly) comments re his family.  Then break into the family firm fake a robbery and steal several hundred pounds.  Was there an element of unknown parentage/"bad blood" amongst all concerned?  Would it have made a difference had the jury have known JB's birth family were law abiding citizens? 

All true.   Bamber's character did go in because he had no choice but to attack Julie's.   Nonetheless, it would have been very high risk to accuse Ann Eaton, say, of planting the silencer.   In hindsight, since he lost, we can see he had nothing to lose but his advisers didn't have hindsight (and they very nearly got him off).

The forums you've mentioned you're a member of concern true crime/miscarriages of justice so maybe Mumsnet will make you into the rounded person you want to be 

"In November 2009 newspaper articles spoke of the forthcoming UK general election as "the Mumsnet election",[6][7][8] in part because mothers were regarded by politicians as key floating voters and online forums were seen as arenas in which their votes could be courted.[9] The then prime minister[10][11] and the leader of the opposition [12][13] appeared on the website's webchats in quick succession, and this was widely reported. The site faced a barrage of publicity, not all of it favourable.[14][15] Others have been dismissive of the importance of the site to politicians, suggesting Mumsnet users comprise a relatively narrow demographic. Toby Young argued that the site is full of Guardian readers and "peopled exclusively by university-educated, upper-middle-class women who are only "swing voters" in the sense that they swing between voting Labour, Lib Dem and Green".[16]

Mumsnet has become a popular resource for journalists, and discussions on the message boards have been cited in the press. Users of the site have sometimes felt that reproduction of Mumsnet discussions in the press is unwelcome, and the Daily Mail's regular "This Week on Mumsnet" column generated controversy on the site in September 2009".[17]

Well, maybe I should reconsider.   ISF is not an injustice forum but a so-called 'skeptics' forum where I sometimes feel as much of an outsider as I would among the mums.

[Myster]

Just noticed that Eley still use beeswax/tallow to coat certain types of .22 cartridge, so in '85  their subsonic hollow-points were probably coated with it as well. What the difference between the two lubricants is for, I've no idea.

http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-tenex

Malcolm Fletcher was right after all when he said...

‘The ammunition used to carry out the murders was Ely Subsonic. The bullets themselves were coated with beeswax, which was quite unusual. When you handled them you got a sort of black grease on your hands and when they were discharged, small specks of grease or wax were emitted, not just with the bullet but from the ejection port as well. It would have been very visible.’

Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm. Pan Macmillan.

The end result though is that no deposits were found on Sheila's fingers, so she can't have handled any bullets, unless you believe she washed her hands before using the rifle on herself.

[Holly Goodhead]

Just noticed that Eley still use beeswax/tallow to coat certain types of .22 cartridge, so in '85  their subsonic hollow-points were probably coated with it as well. What the difference between the two lubricants is for, I've no idea.

http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-tenex

Malcolm Fletcher was right after all when he said...

‘The ammunition used to carry out the murders was Ely Subsonic. The bullets themselves were coated with beeswax, which was quite unusual. When you handled them you got a sort of black grease on your hands and when they were discharged, small specks of grease or wax were emitted, not just with the bullet but from the ejection port as well. It would have been very visible.’

Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm. Pan Macmillan.

The end result though is that no deposits were found on Sheila's fingers, so she can't have handled any bullets, unless you believe she washed her hands before using the rifle on herself.

The bullets you have quoted above are not the ones used at WHF.  The ones used:

http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow

The description states "The non-greasy lubricant provides smooth operation in semi-automatic rifles and improves functioning in all weather conditions".

[Holly Goodhead]

Myster I thought you were aware of the bullets used?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4723.msg171331#msg171331

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5743.msg205664#msg205664

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=590.msg18003#msg18003

[Holly Goodhead]

CAL's books is the first time I've heard mention of grease and wax.  SC's hands were only tested for lead.  Perhaps MF is trying to justify JB's guilt to himself knowing the whole draw-back effect with a .22 rifle and subsonic ammo is a non-starter.  Don't blame MF; blame the government/Home Office for lack of training.  These  guys and girls (Glynis Howard) should have been going on secondment to US to get the expertise needed to analyse a SoC like WHF. 

[Holly Goodhead]

To Clarify, MF's assertion in CAL's book:

‘The ammunition used to carry out the murders was Ely Subsonic. The bullets themselves were coated with beeswax, which was quite unusual. When you handled them you got a sort of black grease on your hands and when they were discharged, small specks of grease or wax were emitted, not just with the bullet but from the ejection port as well. It would have been very visible.’

MF's document detailing the bullets used at WHF:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=659

". 22 rimfire [cant decipher word, looks like bulleted] cartridges
Lead bullet hollow point
Eley subsonic LR"

http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow

"The non-greasy lubricant provides smooth operation in semi-automatic rifles and improves functioning in all weather conditions".

Do I believe in conspiracy theories?  No.  Do I believe in incompetent expert witnesses and unreliable prosecution witnesses?  Yes. 

[Holly Goodhead]

The only possible explanation to the above, other than MF was/is incompetent/lying, is that the manufacturer, Eley, changed their bullet lubricant for the Eley subsonic bullets during the last 30 years or so but this would not explain why the prosecution case didn't feature a lack of beeswax.

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't think Ron Cook would have noticed any hand-cream of whatever flavour. This is supposed to be rubbed in until absorbed, isn't that so?

You've been conned with that particular hand-cream too. There is no proof that keratin is absorbed through the skin and miraculously becomes new skin/nail tissue. Keratin is chemically assembled within the body from amino-acids, notably from the breakdown of gelatin. You would get more benefit from eating a packet of Hartley's jelly, or making some soup from the liquid of a boiled chicken carcass. You are what you eat!

Notice that two of the main ingredients are water and glycerine. My dad used to work outdoors in all weathers and every day in winter rubbed a smidgeon of glycerine into his hands until they were dry and non-greasy. They became as smooth as a baby's bottom. Save yourself some money and invest in a large bottle of plain old glycerin, and nota bene the dictum of Muggeridge below.

Yes hand cream is suppose to rub in but I think it leaves a film for a while and maybe a build up accumulates just below the surface which may or may not have had some sort of effect on the tests.

I agree many products are just marketing hype that's why I use the above as its pretty cheap and does the job.  Plus the pink tube looks nice in my fave bag:

[Myster]

Myster I thought you were aware of the bullets used?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4723.msg171331#msg171331

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5743.msg205664#msg205664

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=590.msg18003#msg18003

Of course I'm aware of the type that was used, always have been.  I was just pointing out that today's subsonic hollow-points use paraffin wax as lubricant whereas in '85 they might have been coated with beeswax/tallow instead, like 'Tenex' solid-ended bullets still are. Hence the reason why Fletcher mentioned beeswax which left a black deposit when handled, probably caused by lead dust becoming mixed with it.

[Myster]

Yes hand cream is suppose to rub in but I think it leaves a film for a while and maybe a build up accumulates just below the surface which may or may not have had some sort of effect on the tests.

I agree many products are just marketing hype that's why I use the above as its pretty cheap and does the job.  Plus the pink tube looks nice in my fave bag:

For a moment I thought I'd logged onto Mumsnet by mistake!

Nice bag though, but don't tell me what you keep in there Hols... I'm just having my lunch.

[Holly Goodhead]

Of course I'm aware of the type that was used, always have been.  I was just pointing out that today's subsonic hollow-points use paraffin wax as lubricant whereas in '85 they might have been coated with beeswax/tallow instead, like 'Tenex' solid-ended bullets still are. Hence the reason why Fletcher mentioned beeswax which left a black deposit when handled, probably caused by lead dust becoming mixed with it.

If you care to take a peep at the following and look at the tech info and diagrams for the ammo produced by Eley it appears the use determines the lubricant?

http://www.eley.co.uk/ammunition?p=1

Page 1 shows all the ammo using beeswax/tallow with the exception of the ammo named Tenex Biathlon which uses biathlon lube. 

The reason given for using beeswax/tallow lube is "Easy chambering".  The reason given for using biathlon lube is "Easy chambering at low temperatures". 

Page 2 shows all the ammo using paraffin wax and the reason given is "To reduce residues".  Usage is for competitive semi-auto rifles and hunting/varmint shooters.  These uses suggest multiple shots fired in very quick succession with rapid reloads and hence reducing residues would, I guess, be of interest to users.  I've looked at all the other features (as I'm pretty sad and geeky  ) bullet profile, length, weight, velocity and energy and I cant see a connection with the lube.

There must be a reason the manufacturers use different lubes they are unlikely to just chuck on whatever they have hanging around. 

I'm sure Eley will be willing and able to provide a definite answer. 

[Myster]

If you think about it, beeswax is slippier than paraffin wax. Polish furniture with the former and you get a smooth slidy finish, but with the latter just a waxy mess. So beeswax should be more suitable for multi-round magazines such as the Anschutz.  Don't know why Eley changed lubricant for hollow-points unless paraffin wax is substantially cheaper to cut manufacturing costs.

Beeswax might retain a lot more lead dust than paraffin wax and this would have a detrimental (poisonous) effect on meat if killed prey such as rabbits were eaten. HP's are used for varmint, whereas Tenex and other beeswax-coated ammo for target shooting where lead contamination doesn't matter.

You're the one who likes firing of e-mails willy-nilly, Holly... so be my guest.

[Holly Goodhead]

If you think about it, beeswax is slippier than paraffin wax. Polish furniture with the former and you get a smooth slidy finish, but with the latter just a waxy mess. So beeswax should be more suitable for multi-round magazines such as the Anschutz.  Don't know why Eley changed lubricant for hollow-points unless paraffin wax is substantially cheaper to cut manufacturing costs.

Beeswax might retain a lot more lead dust than paraffin wax and this would have a detrimental (poisonous) effect on meat if killed prey such as rabbits were eaten. HP's are used for varmint, whereas Tenex and other beeswax-coated ammo for target shooting where lead contamination doesn't matter.

You're the one who likes firing of e-mails willy-nilly, Holly... so be my guest.

The tech info and diagram for the subsonic hollow-point states:  "Firm hydrocarbon lubricant" so perhaps not a "waxy mess":

http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow

How do we know Eley have changed lubricant on the subsonic hollow-point?  They may have always manufactured them using paraffin wax and MF was/is mistaken for whatever reason(s).  As I said if beeswax was in abundance as described in his interview with CAL then why did the investigating officers and prosecution not pick up on this?  Moreover why did he not he pick up on it at the time?  One of the appeal points at the CoA hearing 2002 relates to the hand swabs and this was in connection with lead no mention of beeswax. 

I have sent an email to Eley asking simply if paraffin wax has always been used in the manufacturing of the subsonic hollow-point ammunition and if not are they able to identify what was used with the relevant manufacturing dates. 

I also phoned Radcliffe in Colchester and the guy didn't have any idea what I was talking about.  Said its the first time he has been asked the question.  I said you always get one!