Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?

[John]

If you set aside the potentially dodgy "reconstruction", what evidence is there that even João was involved in whatever happened to this child?

A few things including both his and Leonor's statements but the most damning evidence of his involvement was his attempts to find the child's remains after he supposedly disposed of her.

Tell me Carana, what sane, innocent person takes police out to find a body if they are completely innocent of any involvement in her disappearance and don't even try the coercion card because frankly, it is tiresome.

[Anna]

Joao knew the area well as he had worked there in construction.
If he had hidden Joana, why would he lie?

Joao did not know where the body of Joana was. Simply because I don’t believe that he ever moved her body in the first place.
 
All the places that he may have indicated and was taken to search, was  a guise to stop the threats and punishment he was probably receiving, if only for a short while.

 You don’t honestly believe that he was treated any differently to Leonor, whilst being interrogated……Do you?

[mercury]

I wondered how Leonor Cipriano managed to endure such a beating...the answers obvious. The beating was to reveal where the body was...she didn't know so she couldn't tell them...she had no knowledge of where Joanna was...if she had she would have told the PJ...She is innocent

The courts dont agree with you

[mercury]

I'm trying to find any indication that anything had been sent to the INML for DNA analysis. Genuine query.
The PJ forensic unit would have been able to distinguish human blood from animal blood or semen from saliva (although they got that wrong on a subsequent case)... but did anything get sent to the INML?

Human blood found in the freezer was sent to the police science labs, so I see no reason why the blood found on the walls, on the floor, on the mop and bucket, on Silvas trainers  and wherever else (I dont recall the full list) would not have been sent there too.

[mercury]

If you set aside the potentially dodgy "reconstruction", what evidence is there that even João was involved in whatever happened to this child?

circumstantial most of it

Violent personality

He did go to prison for attempted murder IIRC

Whether he would callously kill his own kin for whatever reason is another matter and one which we can know nothing about ultimately

[Carana]

A few things including both his and Leonor's statements but the most damning evidence of his involvement was his attempts to find the child's remains after he supposedly disposed of her.

Tell me Carana, what sane, innocent person takes police out to find a body if they are completely innocent of any involvement in her disappearance and don't even try the coercion card because frankly, it is tiresome.

Someone who is cunning and takes sadistic pleasure in taunting the PJ? But according to Leandro, João was fond of his niece and his IQ doesn't appear to have been high enough to outsmart them.

Someone who is guilty but was so drunk or high that they couldn't remember? No one noticed anything odd about him that night. The upstairs neighbour didn't hear any unusual noises...

Someone who is guilty, but expects a lower sentence through cooperating? I doubt that the PJ didn't try that one.

Or someone who is innocent, but terrified of the PJ (or the threat of being accidentally-on-purpose left to the mercy of fellow inmates). He wasn't the only person the PJ came to get to take them to wherever their latest idea was.

[Carana]

The guy couldn't even work out how to get the chopped doll into the tiny freezer. Leandro said it was hard going fitting two chickens in it. Either João was told, or it suddenly dawned on him, to take out the drawers and then it would just about be squashed inside. Leandro had no idea when his saw disappeared - he only noticed it was missing when the PJ asked him if he had one and was told to fetch it, but couldn't find it. And there weren't any any big knives in the house. Neither Leandro nor "MM" (the half-brother / friend) saw anything unusual, no mess, nor any sign of a clean-up when they went back to the house.

The PJ didn't even come to wave a black torch around until 22 September (i.e., 10 days after she'd gone missing). Meanwhile two men (plus João for a couple of days), the mother, the other children carried on living there and various relatives popped in and out.

[Alfred R Jones]

Someone who is cunning and takes sadistic pleasure in taunting the PJ? But according to Leandro, João was fond of his niece and his IQ doesn't appear to have been high enough to outsmart them.

Someone who is guilty but was so drunk or high that they couldn't remember? No one noticed anything odd about him that night. The upstairs neighbour didn't hear any unusual noises...

Someone who is guilty, but expects a lower sentence through cooperating? I doubt that the PJ didn't try that one.

Or someone who is innocent, but terrified of the PJ (or the threat of being accidentally-on-purpose left to the mercy of fellow inmates). He wasn't the only person the PJ came to get to take them to wherever their latest idea was.

Why does anyone own up to a crime they didn't commit?  It's not that unheard of is it?

[Carana]

Why does anyone own up to a crime they didn't commit?  It's not that unheard of is it?

According to the Innocence Project's study, 63% of those convicted of murder in the US, later exonerated by DNA, had given false confessions.

I would hope that some of those date back to the "Life on Mars" school and that the percentage would now be considerably lower.

[Carana]

I'm trying to find the date of this reconstruction. Reading the ruling, it doesn't specify, but would certainly appear to be after the PJ had first waved their black torch around.

My own attempt at an improvement on Googlish (feel free to correct):
Witness CC3, coordinator of the PJ criminal investigation, said they began investigating the case nine days after the disappearance of CC, as the case was classified as a crime of kidnapping / abduction. He took note of the statements made by the GNR and viewed television interviews and soon wondered about the posture / attitude (?) of the mother, who wore black and appeared to be lying, as she spoke of her daughter in the past tense. They began taking statements and decided to go and examine BB's house . When they arrived they saw that the interior of the house had been washed , and such washing contrasted with the lax state of cleanliness and tidiness of the rest of the house , but they were still able to find blood traces on the floor, the walls, on the bucket and mop and on the soles of some shoes that were in the living-room - the witness confirmed the record of the search and seizure of fls . 173 . When the test results were conclusive in the sense that these were traces of human blood and a mixture of human and animal blood , they arrested the defendants , AA having been arrested in Cacela . He also stated that with the help of defendant AA, they proceeded to the findings of fact as stated in pages 273 etc. , the content of which he confirmed as he was present at the diligence . He confirmed that the configuration of the house shown in the plan on p. 294 and the door which gives access to the street has a knob on the outside that allows immediate entry to the residence . He said that following this reconstitution, and following the indications of defendant AA, they searched extensively, but unsuccessfully for the child's body at a landfill land and elsewhere in Mexilhoeira Grande, a dump (lixeira?), in Poco Barreto , smashed-up cars in II [Leandro] 's stepfather's scrapyard and in Silves . He confirmed the [forensic] search, via the Projectina technique, of the traces in the living-room of defendant BB's home , which resulted in the records of the signs photographed in on pp. 896, etc.. The witness also confirmed the search and seizure recorded in the file on pp . 578-580 ( a freezer ) in which a trace of human blood was collected, pointing out that this trace of human blood was collected inside the drawer , to be precise, on the back panel of the freezer's second drawer.


A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que começaram a investigar o caso passados 9 dias do desaparecimento da CC, sendo que o caso estava classificado como crime de sequestro/rapto. Tomou conhecimento das declarações prestadas na GNR e visionou as entrevistas televisivas, estranhando logo a postura da mãe, que vestia de preto e parecia estar a mentir, sendo que falava da filha no passado. Começaram a tomar declarações e decidiram ir examinar a casa da BB. Quando lá chegaram viram que o interior da habitação tinha sido lavado, sendo que tal lavagem contrastava com o desleixo de limpeza e arrumação do resto da casa, mas mesmo assim ainda encontraram vestígios hemáticos no chão, nas paredes, no balde e esfregona e na sola de umas sapatilhas que estavam na sala - a testemunha confirmou o auto de busca e apreensão de fls. 173. Quando o resultado dos exames foi conclusivo no sentido de que esses vestígios eram de sangue humano e mistura de sangue humano e animal, detiveram os arguidos, tendo o AA sido detido em Cacela. Declarou também que com o auxílio do arguido AA procederam à reconstituição dos factos como consta do auto de fls. 273 ss, cujo teor confirmou pois que esteve presente na diligência. Confirmou que a configuração da casa é a que consta da planta de fls. 294 e que a porta que dá acesso à rua tem um manípulo do lado exterior que permite a entrada imediata na residência. Disse ainda que na sequência desta reconstituição, e seguindo indicações do arguido AA, procuraram o corpo da menor num aterro de terra e noutros locais da Mexilhoeira Grande, numa lixeira, em Poço Barreto, nos carros acidentados existentes na sucata do padrasto do II e em Silves, locais onde procuraram exaustivamente mas sem êxito. Confirmou ainda a pesquisa pela técnica denominada Projectina de vestígios na sala da casa da arguida BB, de onde resultou o apuramento dos sinais fotografados nos autos a fls. 896 ss. A testemunha confirmou também o auto de busca e apreensão junto aos autos de fls. 578 a 580 (arca frigorífica) e que no interior da arca foi recolhido um vestígio hemático da espécie humana, realçando que este vestígio de sangue humano foi recolhido no interior da gaveta, concretamente no painel de trás da segunda gaveta da arca.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano

[Anna]

I'm trying to find the date of this reconstruction. Reading the ruling, it doesn't specify, but would certainly appear to be after the PJ had first waved their black torch around.

My own attempt at an improvement on Googlish (feel free to correct):
Witness CC3, coordinator of the PJ criminal investigation, said they began investigating the case nine days after the disappearance of CC, as the case was classified as a crime of kidnapping / abduction. He took note of the statements made by the GNR and viewed television interviews and soon wondered about the posture / attitude (?) of the mother, who wore black and appeared to be lying, as she spoke of her daughter in the past tense. They began taking statements and decided to go and examine BB's house . When they arrived they saw that the interior of the house had been washed , and such washing contrasted with the lax state of cleanliness and tidiness of the rest of the house , but they were still able to find blood traces on the floor, the walls, on the bucket and mop and on the soles of some shoes that were in the living-room - the witness confirmed the record of the search and seizure of fls . 173 . When the test results were conclusive in the sense that these were traces of human blood and a mixture of human and animal blood , they arrested the defendants , AA having been arrested in Cacela . He also stated that with the help of defendant AA, they proceeded to the findings of fact as stated in pages 273 etc. , the content of which he confirmed as he was present at the diligence . He confirmed that the configuration of the house shown in the plan on p. 294 and the door which gives access to the street has a knob on the outside that allows immediate entry to the residence . He said that following this reconstitution, and following the indications of defendant AA, they searched extensively, but unsuccessfully for the child's body at a landfill land and elsewhere in Mexilhoeira Grande, a dump (lixeira?), in Poco Barreto , smashed-up cars in II [Leandro] 's stepfather's scrapyard and in Silves . He confirmed the [forensic] search, via the Projectina technique, of the traces in the living-room of defendant BB's home , which resulted in the records of the signs photographed in on pp. 896, etc.. The witness also confirmed the search and seizure recorded in the file on pp . 578-580 ( a freezer ) in which a trace of human blood was collected, pointing out that this trace of human blood was collected inside the drawer , to be precise, on the back panel of the freezer's second drawer.


A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que começaram a investigar o caso passados 9 dias do desaparecimento da CC, sendo que o caso estava classificado como crime de sequestro/rapto. Tomou conhecimento das declarações prestadas na GNR e visionou as entrevistas televisivas, estranhando logo a postura da mãe, que vestia de preto e parecia estar a mentir, sendo que falava da filha no passado. Começaram a tomar declarações e decidiram ir examinar a casa da BB. Quando lá chegaram viram que o interior da habitação tinha sido lavado, sendo que tal lavagem contrastava com o desleixo de limpeza e arrumação do resto da casa, mas mesmo assim ainda encontraram vestígios hemáticos no chão, nas paredes, no balde e esfregona e na sola de umas sapatilhas que estavam na sala - a testemunha confirmou o auto de busca e apreensão de fls. 173. Quando o resultado dos exames foi conclusivo no sentido de que esses vestígios eram de sangue humano e mistura de sangue humano e animal, detiveram os arguidos, tendo o AA sido detido em Cacela. Declarou também que com o auxílio do arguido AA procederam à reconstituição dos factos como consta do auto de fls. 273 ss, cujo teor confirmou pois que esteve presente na diligência. Confirmou que a configuração da casa é a que consta da planta de fls. 294 e que a porta que dá acesso à rua tem um manípulo do lado exterior que permite a entrada imediata na residência. Disse ainda que na sequência desta reconstituição, e seguindo indicações do arguido AA, procuraram o corpo da menor num aterro de terra e noutros locais da Mexilhoeira Grande, numa lixeira, em Poço Barreto, nos carros acidentados existentes na sucata do padrasto do II e em Silves, locais onde procuraram exaustivamente mas sem êxito. Confirmou ainda a pesquisa pela técnica denominada Projectina de vestígios na sala da casa da arguida BB, de onde resultou o apuramento dos sinais fotografados nos autos a fls. 896 ss. A testemunha confirmou também o auto de busca e apreensão junto aos autos de fls. 578 a 580 (arca frigorífica) e que no interior da arca foi recolhido um vestígio hemático da espécie humana, realçando que este vestígio de sangue humano foi recolhido no interior da gaveta, concretamente no painel de trás da segunda gaveta da arca.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano

Date of recon Carana.


This version, counted yesterday to DN by what he heard from the mouth of the stepfather of joana, eventually counteract the content of the reconstitution of the alleged crime, made last Saturday 25th by uncle of joana, John Cyprian, held in preventive detention.

[Carana]

Por outro lado, os actos que constam do auto de reconstituição são compatíveis com os vestígios hemáticos recolhidos na sala (repare-se que a reconstituição tem lugar na sala), como resulta do auto de busca e apreensão efectuado em 22.9.2004 (cfr. fls. 173 e 233 ss), onde consta que foram recolhidos vestígios no chão, junto à porta de entrada, exterior e interiormente, junto ao interruptor eléctrico interior à direita da porta de entrada, junto à entrada do lado esquerdo do sofá, num par de ténis de MM Silva que se encontrava entre os sofás, numa esfregona (haste) e respectivo balde. Estes vestígios, segundo perícias efectuadas, são de sangue humano e de sangue humano e animal (cfr. fls. 235), e embora fossem insuficientes para averiguar a quem pertencem através do ADN (fls. 1780 ss), são reveladores de que naquela sala aconteceu algo terrível, algo que deu origem a que houvesse sangue humano no chão e nas paredes, que foram limpos com uma esfregona e balde, sendo que o sangue que estava na esfregona se encontrava na haste, revelador que quem utilizou a esfregona tinha por sua vez as mãos sujas de sangue. Assim, os vestígios recolhidos na sala vêm reforçar a fiabilidade da reconstituição.

(Joana Morais / Astro translation)
On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] * Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.

These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.

* MM was Leandro's half-brother /friend who lived with them. Leandro is II in the ruling.

---

Then there's this passage in the SC ruling, refuting the defence's legal arguments, seemingly. I can only get the gist of it and it might have made more sense if the forensic report were available.

My (possibly flawed) understanding of that is that the the lawyers were arguing that there was a contradiction concernng the results of the black torch and the blood found. I'm not sure what contradiction this was, but clearly a black torch will make substances other than blood fluoresce - and there does indeed appear to have been traces of human and a mixture of human and animal blood somewhere in those areas. The argument may have been that just because an area becomes fluorescent, and a trace of blood is found somewhere within the area, it doesn't mean that the entire area was blood (which would seem to make sense), nor was it necessarily hers as the DNA profiles couldn't be established.

The SC logic appears to be that as the area had been cleaned (there is no evidence that this was the case, aside from of the "we, experts" variety who eventually turned up 10 days after the event in a home in which numerous people continued to live as it hadn't been sealed off), the DNA couldn't be identified. There was other evidence that it was hers (such as...?) and anyway the lab hadn't proven that it couldn't have been hers.

Hmmm.


E.VII. Inexistiu igualmente qualquer contradição insanável na motivação decorrente de não se terem entendido como sendo da malograda CC os vestígios recolhidos através da técnica da projectina e o entendimento de serem seus os vestígios de sangue humano colhidos na casa onde decorreram os factos, ou entre esta conclusão e a de que, por acção de limpezas efectuadas pela arguida BB, não ter sido possível apurar o ADN de tal sangue.
Isto porque foi através de muitos outros elementos de prova que se concluiu por ser sangue da menor aquele que foi colhido na casa, em nada se relacionando esses vestígios hemáticos com os colhidos pela técnica da projectina (que faz surgir outros fluidos corporais).

Sendo ainda que apenas poderia existir a alegada contradição caso existissem, por sua vez, elementos laboratoriais que afastassem a possibilidade de o sangue pertencer à vítima, o que não sucedeu.
Não existem, assim, quaisquer factos contraditórios dados como provados quanto a esta matéria.

[Carana]

Date of recon Carana.


This version, counted yesterday to DN by what he heard from the mouth of the stepfather of joana, eventually counteract the content of the reconstitution of the alleged crime, made last Saturday 25th by uncle of joana, John Cyprian, held in preventive detention.

Thanks Anna, do you have a link to the original?

[John]

Sorry, haven't replied to the above posts but will do so shortly, however, consider the following.

Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, realistically, there can only be a couple of possibilities in this case.  Joana didn't run off with the groceries so we are left with foul play.

The original admission by Leonor was that she assaulted daughter Joana and she succumbed to a head injury.  This is very possible and is supported by the attempt to wash the kitchen walls and the unidentified miniscule specks of human blood found thereon.  Leonor further claimed that she asked her brother João to take the child's body out the back and hide it meantime in some wasteland.  João for his part never denied this story and still doesn't as far as I am aware.  Various other scenarios for disposal of her body were investigated including searches of a canal bank nearby, searches of various dumps including a scrapyard belonging to another member of the extended family.  It was even suggested that the girls remains were put in a car which was sent off for crushing.  Regardless of all these, not a single trace has ever been found of Joana.

Prior to her appeal against conviction, Leonor made a written declaration to the court in which she stated that she wanted to come clean and tell the truth at last.  By doing so she admitted to having lied to police and committed perjury, she was subsequently prosecuted for having lied to the Court.

In this declaration, Leonor stated that the assault story was a fabrication by her and João, that the truth was that they had hatched a plan to sell Joana to some foreigners (Germans I believe) and that to this end João had taken the girl up into the hills and to an old ruin where the exchange was supposed to have taken place. According to Leonor, the deal somehow went wrong and Joana ended up dead.  This according to Leonor was what João told her.

Could it be that the child trafficking story was true and that the deal was successfully achieved?

Is it possible that João told Leonor a lie about Joana's fate?

Is that why although João went along with the original story, he has NEVER been able to find remains?

Did João do the dirty on his own sister?




                      João Cipriano, uncle of the missing child, escorted into Court.   Inset: Missing youngster Joana Cipriano.




                                                                  Mother of the missing child, Leonor Cipriano arrives at Court.

[Carana]

Sorry, haven't replied to the above posts but will do so shortly, however, consider the following.

Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, realistically, there can only be a couple of possibilities in this case.  Joana didn't run off with the groceries so we are left with foul play.

The original admission by Leonor was that she assaulted daughter Joana and she succumbed to a head injury.  This is very possible and is supported by the attempt to wash the kitchen walls and the unidentified miniscule specks of human blood found thereon.  Leonor further claimed that she asked her brother João to take the child's body out the back and hide it meantime in some wasteland.  João for his part never denied this story and still doesn't as far as I am aware.  Various other scenarios for disposal of her body were investigated including searches of a canal bank nearby, searches of various dumps including a scrapyard belonging to another member of the extended family.  It was even suggested that the girls remains were put in a car which was sent off for crushing.  Regardless of all these, not a single trace has ever been found of Joana.

Prior to her appeal against conviction, Leonor made a written declaration to the court in which she stated that she wanted to come clean and tell the truth at last.  By doing so she admitted to having lied to police and committed perjury, she was subsequently prosecuted for having lied to the Court.

In this declaration, Leonor stated that the assault story was a fabrication by her and João, that the truth was that they had hatched a plan to sell Joana to some foreigners (Germans I believe) and that to this end João had taken the girl up into the hills and to an old ruin where the exchange was supposed to have taken place. According to Leonor, the deal somehow went wrong and Joana ended up dead.  This according to Leonor was what João told her.

Could it be that the child trafficking story was true and that the deal was successfully achieved?

Is it possible that João told Leonor a lie about Joana's fate?

Is that why although João went along with the original story, he has NEVER been able to find remains?

Did João do the dirty on his own sister?




                                        João Cipriano escorted into Court.   Inset: Missing youngster Joana Cipriano.




                                                                Mother of the missing child, Leonor Cipriano arrives at Court.

It would takes ages to quote every point to reply. A few points for the moment...

- Cleaning the walls: neither Leandro nor MM noticed anything unusual that evening... no mess, no signs of sudden cleaning. There is no evidence that any form of sophisticated crime scene analysis beyond a black torch, a test to distinguish between humand and animal blood, and some form of unsuccessful attempt to establish DNA. The first CSI manual wasn't even launched until 2009, so I doubt that we're into the realms of sophisticated blood spatter analysis or any means of testing for deliberate cleaning.

- Aside from beatings, you and a sibling are held separately in custody. The PJ come to you and say that we know that your sibling actually did this and you were merely an accessory. Just admit to it and you'll get a lighter sentence. And try the other tactic, your sibling has stated that you were the perp and that he/she was merely an accessory.

You're exhausted, possibly beaten, confused, a poor peasant caught up in a nightmare, and you have no idea what is really going on. And you're fuming that your sibling has apparently falsely accused you of something dreadful that you hadn't done. And you're not that close anyway, so you've no idea whether they really have or not.

- When did this "come clean" issue first arise?