Doors, windows and shutters

[Mr Gray]

In RO's WS she just refers to a a small catch on her apt window so assuming the windows were the same then it doesn't appear any window locks were involved and I haven't read anything about locks on shutters.  Unlikely the windows/shutters were designed to be opened from the outside but how easy would it have been for someone who wanted to do that in terms of actually prising them open and doing it in such a way as to avoid detection from others eg Mrs Fenn above?

Petermac from CMOMM has provided s video where he shows himself easily raising the outside.. Heriberto... A member here has also confirmed how easy it is.  It seems the shutters, were not security  shutters but merely to block out light

[Venturi Swirl]

There's a reconnoitre, then there's being an imbecile. Surely any self-respecting would-be abductor wouldn't enter twice, one of which was purely for paving the way for a 2nd visit?

As the phenomenon of criminals revisiting the scenes of their crimes has been well observed, why do you find it such a stretch to imagine that they would prepare the scene of the crime in advance in order to give themselves an advantage?  I’m not talking specifically about this case, but in general surely the principle is not entirely absurd and improbable?

[Holly Goodhead]

Kate describing Thursday 3rd May

After breakfast they got dressed and left the apartment by the main door...They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered by the same door.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

Gerry speaks about Thursday 3rd May;

eturning to Thursday, after breakfast, about 09h00, KATE and the children left by the rear door, he hav
ing left by the front door, which he locked with the key, having also closed and locked the rear door from the inside.

the deponent left by the front door and the rest of the family by the rear door that, once again, he shut and locked from the inside. As to the front door, he does not know exactly if he locked it
(linchtime)

After 17H30 they went to the apartment, the deponent having entered by the main door, which he did not lock while he was inside the residence. KATE and the children entered by the rear door, after this had been opened from the inside by the deponent.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

I've only skim read GM's ws so far.  But the above doesn't make sense to my mind.  KM states in her book they decided against taking the twin buggy opting instead for a single with one parent carrying.  This would mean if KM and children left patio side she would have to negotiate with MM, twins, possibly the buggy and bags (GM may have taken some of the load?) through doors, gates and a set of concrete stairs and onto a road? 

I haven't found any complete images showing the front door but from verbal descriptions and various images I believe leading away from the door there was some sort of wall and a slope or steps ? to the car park?  Just thinking thru the logistics of dealing with a buggy, small children, bags etc it would seem easier and safer to exit front door?  Anyone with children especially that age and on holiday will know all the paraphernalia that does with it 

[Holly Goodhead]

There's a reconnoitre, then there's being an imbecile. Surely any self-respecting would-be abductor wouldn't enter twice, one of which was purely for paving the way for a 2nd visit?

How could someone carry out an internal reconnoitre especially when KM tells us from day 1 the shutters and curtains were closed and remained that way all week?  If MM was abducted maybe the abductor started of with voyeurism from the outside by pushing up the shutter and opening the window from the outside having made them insecure earlier, hence waking MM on 1st May (Mrs Fenn) and 2nd May (MM 'Why didn't you come when Shaun and I were crying?) he/she then progressed to abduction. 

[The General]

How could someone carry out an internal reconnoitre especially when KM tells us from day 1 the shutters and curtains were closed and remained that way all week?  If MM was abducted maybe the abductor started of with voyeurism from the outside by pushing up the shutter and opening the window from the outside having made them insecure earlier, hence waking MM on 1st May (Mrs Fenn) and 2nd May (MM 'Why didn't you come when Shaun and I were crying?) he/she then progressed to abduction.

Which was my point. At least I think it was, I'd just come back from a meal with the client and had imbibed several sherberts before pouring myself on to the tube.
What was the post? Something about someone going in twice?

[G-Unit]

I've only skim read GM's ws so far.  But the above doesn't make sense to my mind.  KM states in her book they decided against taking the twin buggy opting instead for a single with one parent carrying.  This would mean if KM and children left patio side she would have to negotiate with MM, twins, possibly the buggy and bags (GM may have taken some of the load?) through doors, gates and a set of concrete stairs and onto a road? 

I haven't found any complete images showing the front door but from verbal descriptions and various images I believe leading away from the door there was some sort of wall and a slope or steps ? to the car park?  Just thinking thru the logistics of dealing with a buggy, small children, bags etc it would seem easier and safer to exit front door?  Anyone with children especially that age and on holiday will know all the paraphernalia that does with it 

If you're crying now you just wait! Every single subject I look at in this case is the same; different stories which imo don't make sense.

I don't think they took a buggy at all. Gerry's method of entering and exiting the apartment does indeed seem convoluted, not to mention dangerous. It was much easier for them all to use the front door.

[G-Unit]

That's what I thought initially but then when I thought it thru further I guess any valuables they had on their person eg cash, cards, jewellery, phones, cameras?  Perhaps the only valuable to criminal items amounted to personal docs eg passports, driving licences ie id theft and possessions belonging to apt eg tv.  And if they left the patio doors open at night with the children inside then why not during the day?

Does anyone know if the apt had a safe?

Guests were advised to use the safe deposit boxes, available at the 24 hour reception, I believe.

[The General]

If you're crying now you just wait! Every single subject I look at in this case is the same; different stories which imo don't make sense.

I don't think they took a buggy at all. Gerry's method of entering and exiting the apartment does indeed seem convoluted, not to mention dangerous. It was much easier for them all to use the front door.

I agree, to a degree. But I've had to do a similar door jig on holiday or elsewhere, trying to make it easier for mum / kids to access and egress; messing about with keys, going round to the front and all that - not quite in the same manner, but similar. Pain in the arse.
But yes, probably easier for everyone to just go round the front, which sort of demonstrates the general mind set and routine that had been settled on.

[G-Unit]

@ Holly.

This shows the layout in front of the block. On the far left is MM's window with the front door  out of sight beyond it. The small and larger windows belong to 5B, where the Oldfields stayed. Their front door can be seen inside the entrance on the left. Inside there were also the stairs and lift to the upper floors, the door to 5C (unoccupied) and to 5D where the O'Brien/Tanner couple stayed.

The slope and steps were in front of the main entrance to the right of the picture.

[jassi]

Easy to see from that photo why Matt was happy to do a listening check outside 5A

[The General]

Easy to see from that photo why Matt was happy to do a listening check outside 5A

I was thinking that. Two birds and all that.

[Eleanor]

@ Holly.

This shows the layout in front of the block. On the far left is MM's window with the front door  out of sight beyond it. The small and larger windows belong to 5B, where the Oldfields stayed. Their front door can be seen inside the entrance on the left. Inside there were also the stairs and lift to the upper floors, the door to 5C (unoccupied) and to 5D where the O'Brien/Tanner couple stayed.

The slope and steps were in front of the main entrance to the right of the picture.

That's a good photo.  I haven't seen that one before.

I have a wealth of information in my head about this Topic, but I don't know how much of it is true. But people crossing the car park don't appear to have had 5a in their sight without directly looking, which wouldn't have helped much as 5a was in deep shadow.

The McCanns did not take a buggy with them, although they appear to have hired one after Madeleine disappeared.

No one seems to know if Madeleine's bedroom window was locked, so it could have been unlocked.  And it was possible to raise the shutters from outside, as shown by PeterMac.
It was also possible to climb in the window because there is a video of someone from The PJ doing just this.

Personally, I think the abductor crept down low up the back patio steps, but could not have done this carrying a child, and closing the patio door and both gates as well.

As for the abductor sedating all of the children, then Google "Making Chloroform", anyone can do it.

[Holly Goodhead]

Which was my point. At least I think it was, I'd just come back from a meal with the client and had imbibed several sherberts before pouring myself on to the tube.
What was the post? Something about someone going in twice?

I was saying maybe the abductor, if that's how MM disappeared, went in on an earlier occasion to adjust locks, shutters and make any abduction easier.  You seemed to be saying that you didn't think someone would take the risk of going in twice?

[Eleanor]

I was saying maybe the abductor, if that's how MM disappeared, went in on an earlier occasion to adjust locks, shutters and make any abduction easier.  You seemed to be saying that you didn't think someone would take the risk of going in twice?

The abductor might have gone in on an earlier occasion and disturbed the children, so went back for another try.
I don't find that odd.

[G-Unit]

That's a good photo.  I haven't seen that one before.

I have a wealth of information in my head about this Topic, but I don't know how much of it is true. But people crossing the car park don't appear to have had 5a in their sight without directly looking, which wouldn't have helped much as 5a was in deep shadow.

The McCanns did not take a buggy with them, although they appear to have hired one after Madeleine disappeared.

No one seems to know if Madeleine's bedroom window was locked, so it could have been unlocked.  And it was possible to raise the shutters from outside, as shown by PeterMac.
It was also possible to climb in the window because there is a video of someone from The PJ doing just this.

Personally, I think the abductor crept down low up the back patio steps, but could not have done this carrying a child, and closing the patio door and both gates as well.

As for the abductor sedating all of the children, then Google "Making Chloroform", anyone can do it.

Chloroform has problems with smell and reactions to it. If doesn't last long either.