Author Topic: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?  (Read 16680 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« on: June 01, 2020, 10:22:09 PM »
I found this paragraph quite poetic but it brought out the question as to what sort evidence would convince me Jeremy Bamber was guilty.

"Often in murder cases, the truth can hang before a detective as bright as a star when only one is shining in the sky; sometimes it’s like a very faint star in a sky full of brilliant constellations. There are occasions when the detective may get close enough to reach out with his hand to grasp it, only to find it slithering through his fingers. A good detective knows the real trick is to recognize the truth when he sees it. For many of the Essex detectives, the problem with the Bamber case was that all the thousands of pages of ‘facts’ the investigation had thus far compiled could not reveal one single piece of evidence, one instant or happening, that pointed clearly to the guilt of either Jeremy Bamber or Sheila Caffell. In this particular murder inquiry, it seemed that the truth was nothing more than a spinning coin."

I'm not only looking for evidence that was found but what would most likely be found had the case been examined forensically from the moment they entered.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2020, 10:42:46 PM »
Often a murderer will flee to another country.  He seems to go about his business.

"The second week in September 1985 saw Essex police busily grilling Jeremy’s friends and associates looking for dirt. Jeremy insisted that he was innocent, and said there was no evidence against him. He also expressed amazement at the number of people who were talking maliciously behind his back.

In a September 10 statement to the police, Colin Caffell said that the extended family had turned against Jeremy because he’d been left with a controlling interest in certain family investments. One of the relatives had offered to buy some of Jeremy’s shares in the Osea Road caravan site to wrest control from him. Jeremy had also received a solicitor’s letter demanding three valuable paintings from White House Farm, and threatening him with legal action if he didn’t comply."
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2020, 11:05:42 PM »
"Jeremy didn’t bother to protest his innocence. To Stan Jones, this was further evidence Jeremy was the killer. ‘Innocent people protest their innocence at a moment like that,’ he said later."

Maybe that was clue for Stan Jones.  But it is based on what everyone else does.  So it isn't proof as such.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2020, 11:10:22 PM »
"It was Jeremy's conduct after the killings that really turned the tide of public opinion against him. The British Press would betray the twenty-four year old as appallingly cold, immature, arrogant and pompous - and not without a fair amount of justification."

Does that behaviour have any real evidential value?
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2020, 11:22:00 PM »
I find the next paragraph hard to comprehend, just the sheer magnitude of the numbers being used. 

"It’s estimated that between four and five hundred thousand documents or material items never found their way into the hands of the defence, but what really counted were the pieces of key evidence that was deliberately and knowingly corrupted or non-disclosed by Essex Police. Evidence showing that Jeremy Bamber could not have committed the murders did exist and was deliberately withheld, not just from the defence, but also from the prosecution, indeed, from other members of the investigating team."

Do you have any idea how long that would take to consider that number of item?
Even if you spent just 30 seconds per item and worked 10 hour days 5 days a week, that would take a couple of years to even just look at them individually let alone the time required to cross-check and have ways of referencing them.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2020, 11:30:25 PM »
Is this really logical?  If Sheila didn't do it Jeremy did. 
"Paul Terzeon commissioned the eminent forensic pathologist, Professor Bernard Knight, to test the possibility that Sheila was responsible. Looking at the evidence the police presented, Knight was virtually certain she could not have been. Knight was correct in saying that the crime scene and in particular the way Sheila’s corpse appeared ‘stage-managed’ after death suggested Sheila wasn’t the culprit. Knight’s conviction that Sheila’s corpse had been ‘fiddled with’ was not what Paul Terzeon wanted to hear. Jeremy faced the prejudicial situation that the Crown didn’t so much have to prove that Jeremy was guilty but simply that Sheila Caffell was not the killer. If Sheila’s corpse was stage-managed after death, it, therefore, followed that Jeremy had to be the killer."

Even I agree it doesn't look like Sheila fired the second shot.  Who staged managed the scene.  That is what I'd like to know.  Had the gun been found across the room somewhere would they say something different.

What I also find amazing was that the gun near Sheila was empty.  She had killed herself with the very last bullet.  That was really amazing.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 12:02:53 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2020, 12:30:25 AM »
"A former colleague stated on record: ‘Up until his very sad death Taff (DCI Tom Jones) was convinced Bamber didn’t do it. If he’d gone in the witness box in that trial it would have been sensational, because he intended to say what he thought. He was that kind of bloke.’"

Does one wonder if Taff wasn't murdered as well?
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2020, 09:06:44 AM »
Arlidge summing up for the prosecution:

"Once the jury returned to court, Arlidge began his closing speech. The murders, he said, could only have been committed by Jeremy or his sister Sheila. Jeremy himself had made it a ‘two-horse race’ by telling police that his father had telephoned him for help, saying Sheila had gone berserk with a gun. The phone call, said Arlidge, was Jeremy's ‘fatal mistake.’

‘… If Jeremy Bamber did not get that telephone call, (there is no evidence that he didn’t) if that is a lie - and I am going to suggest it is - there can only be one reason for his lying and that is it was he, Jeremy Bamber, who had done it and was trying to cover it up…’

Arlidge accepted that Sheila was mentally ill and obsessed with religion, but he suggested that the Bible found by her side was part of the attempt by Jeremy Bamber to fake her suicide. (There is no evidence Jeremy touched the bible.)

Arlidge said that Sheila ‘may have decided to offer no resistance’ to Jeremy and simply allowed him to pump two bullets into her throat. (Ridiculous).

Throughout the trial Arlidge had stressed that Sheila had no knowledge or experience with firearms. Ann Eaton said that as soon as she heard the killing weapon had been reloaded, she realized Sheila could not possibly have done it. ‘She would not know one end of the barrel of a gun to another,’ Ann said. Peter Eaton told the police: ‘Sheila, I would have said, was definitely frightened of guns. I had never seen Sheila hold a gun…’ David Boutflour said: ‘I do not … recall seeing her with a gun.’ (The truth is that Sheila had been taught how to fire guns, including shotguns, while on a shooting holiday in Scotland. Unearthed photographs show Sheila holding guns in all manner of poses. Sheila had participated in target shooting. She had observed the Anschutz having been reloaded. Indeed, she had watched Jeremy load the rifle on the eve of her death. As one witness pointed out at a later date: ‘She’d been on farms and around shoots all her life - twenty-seven years. She couldn’t have done that without knowing something about guns.’ Not generally known is that Sheila’s fingerprints were recovered from at least two guns inside the house. There were other weapons inside the farmhouse that the police never saw fit to test for fingerprints, so it’s possible Sheila touched these as well. Five years after Jeremy was sent to prison for life, Robert Boutflour was interviewed by the City of London police. An extract from his witness statement reads: ‘I also still have a vision of June sitting with Pam, at a garden table and June asking: ‘What would you think if you saw Jeremy showing Sheila how to load bullets into a rifle?... June had made Jeremy clear the table…’ It must be remembered that the killer at White House Farm didn’t need to be any type of expert with guns to carry out the killings. Jeremy never suggested that Sheila had asked him about a gun, or shown particular interest in guns, or that he had seen her practising. One would think that if he was trying to palm the crime onto her shoulders he would have done so.)

Arlidge admitted that Essex police should have handled the initial stages of the investigation more efficiently. With generous spirit, he added: ‘It’s not for me to praise or to defend the police.’ (Another questionable statement, considering Arlidge was using the very evidence the police accumulated to make his case against Jeremy Bamber; the Crown therefore relied upon the efficiency, consistency and integrity of that evidence.)

Arlidge mocked Jeremy’s reasons for not dialling 999 after receiving his father’s telephone call for help. ‘What reaction would anybody have receiving that telephone call?’ he asked the jury. ‘Most people would think: Emergency! Danger!’ (He did not tell the jury that ‘most people’ didn’t know just what sort of person Sheila was or would know of her recent history and state of mind. ‘Most people’ would not be aware of the Bamber family’s - and Sheila’s own - concerted efforts to keep the situation under wraps. ‘Most people’ would not know that Sheila had had such incidents in the past and Nevill had always been able to get her under control.) But not Jeremy Bamber, insisted Arlidge, who had not instinctively dialled 999. Instead, he had telephoned Chelmsford Police Station. ‘This is an explanation that can’t stand up in a month of Sundays.’

Arlidge added that Jeremy had been determined that the police should come and pick him up, so it would be ‘absolutely apparent’ he wasn’t at the farm. (Another misrepresentation. The police log indicates that when Jeremy first reported the incident he asked PC West what he should do. After inquiring as to whether Jeremy had tried ringing his father back, West said: ‘Will you go to the house and wait for the police officers and liaise with them there…’ Jeremy had asked ‘Shall I go now?’ PC West had given the instruction: ‘Yes, the car from Witham won’t take long.’)

Arlidge maintained that for members of the extended family to have lied or to have given evidence they were unsure of would be ‘pretty incredible.’ (Mr Arlidge hadn’t done his homework.) ‘Can it be,’ he asked the jury, ‘they all got it wrong?’ (The answer is yes; and these people all benefited by Jeremy’s demise.)

And so ended the prosecution case."
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 12:00:02 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2020, 10:12:25 AM »
The judge was the late Justice (Maurice) Drake.

Prosecution was led by Anthony Arlidge QC.

You have AA as the judge.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline G-Unit

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2020, 10:13:50 AM »
It's quite clear to me that the relatives worked very hard to persuade the police that Jeremy Bamber had committed the crime. They said it began because they realised that Sheila Caffell wasn't knowledgeable enough about guns to have used the Anschutz. Even so, Ann Eaton was telling Stan Jones on 7th August that Jeremy didn't have a normal relationship with his parents as he had claimed in the statement she was listening to him making. Right from the beginning she was drawing police attention to Jeremy and away from Sheila.
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Offline APRIL

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2020, 10:22:19 AM »
It's quite clear to me that the relatives worked very hard to persuade the police that Jeremy Bamber had committed the crime. They said it began because they realised that Sheila Caffell wasn't knowledgeable enough about guns to have used the Anschutz. Even so, Ann Eaton was telling Stan Jones on 7th August that Jeremy didn't have a normal relationship with his parents as he had claimed in the statement she was listening to him making. Right from the beginning she was drawing police attention to Jeremy and away from Sheila.


I think she must be credited with knowing far more about them both, than did the police who only knew what Jeremy had chosen to tell them. To be fair, I don't think she said more, of Jeremy, than has been said by most others who knew him.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2020, 10:31:36 AM »
is this really logical?  If Sheila didn't do it Jeremy did. 
"Paul Terzeon commissioned the eminent forensic pathologist, Professor Bernard Knight, to test the possibility that Sheila was responsible. Looking at the evidence the police presented, Knight was virtually certain she could not have been. Knight was correct in saying that the crime scene and in particular the way Sheila’s corpse appeared ‘stage-managed’ after death suggested Sheila wasn’t the culprit. Knight’s conviction that Sheila’s corpse had been ‘fiddled with’ was not what Paul Terzeon wanted to hear. Jeremy faced the prejudicial situation that the Crown didn’t so much have to prove that Jeremy was guilty but simply that Sheila Caffell was not the killer. If Sheila’s corpse was stage-managed after death, it therefore followed that Jeremy had to be the killer."

Even I agree it doesn't look like Sheila fired the second shot.  Who staged managed the scene.  That is what I'd like to know.  Had the gun been found across the room somewhere would they say something different.

What I also find amazing was that the gun near Sheila was empty.  She had killed herself with the very last bullet.  The was really amazing.

Where is all this coming from?

Prof Knight testified at trial to the effect that he thought it would be extraordinary for SC to have been shot in the manner she was by anyone other than herself.

The soc involving SC was interfered with by the police.  The police admit to 'probably' moving the bible.  No probably about it. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline mrswah

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Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2020, 10:59:41 AM »

I think she must be credited with knowing far more about them both, than did the police who only knew what Jeremy had chosen to tell them. To be fair, I don't think she said more, of Jeremy, than has been said by most others who knew him.

I don't know how much/little Ann told the police about Jeremy, but I doubt she knew him THAT well. Sheila and Jeremy were a lot younger than Ann and David; also both had been away at school, also Sheila had been living in London for some years. Ann's knowledge of Jeremy would, IMO, have come from work meetings (the caravan site), and from whatever June told Pamela. I doubt they socialised much.

Offline APRIL

Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2020, 11:37:24 AM »
I don't know how much/little Ann told the police about Jeremy, but I doubt she knew him THAT well. Sheila and Jeremy were a lot younger than Ann and David; also both had been away at school, also Sheila had been living in London for some years. Ann's knowledge of Jeremy would, IMO, have come from work meetings (the caravan site), and from whatever June told Pamela. I doubt they socialised much.


What you say is valid, Mrswah -other than at family gatherings, I doubt there to have been any socializing- but it still remains that Ann would have had greater connection to them both, than did police.

Offline mrswah

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Re: What would convince that Jeremy was guilty of 5 murders?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2020, 11:42:39 AM »

What you say is valid, Mrswah -other than at family gatherings, I doubt there to have been any socializing- but it still remains that Ann would have had greater connection to them both, than did police.


Yes, I agree.

Purely as a matter of interest, do you know how far away WHF was from the  relatives'  homes?