Author Topic: What makes you certain that Luke Mitchell is guilty beyond reasonable doubt?  (Read 21699 times)

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Offline William Wallace

Had I been on that jury I would have had no hesitation in finding him guilty and I would have had no doubt of that given the evidence presented in court by the prosecution.

Don't forget Mitchell had one of Scotland's foremost advocates presenting his case and doing his best for him.  But his sharpness was not enough to overcome the elimination process the police had carried out on other named individuals, the weight of the circumstantial evidence presented against him or the obvious fabrication of Mitchell's alibi.
If you have to lie about where you were, in my opinion you have something to hide.

We can get a flavour of the evidence provided at trial when reading about Mitchell's appeals to the Law Lords who explained exactly why they upheld the judgement made at Mitchell's original trial.

I think Mitchell had a fair trial which is a damn sight more than Jodi Jones was allowed or her family in the years since and I am singularly unimpressed by the unashamed innuendo and stretching of 'truths' out of context exhibited by the campaigners on Mitchell's behalf.

I am glad the jury at Mitchell's trial had the courage of their convictions to go for the outcome which kept what they obviously believed to be an exceptionally dangerous man off the streets.

Let's hope you never serve on a Jury then. The whole case against him is just a load of old cobblers. You're saying he's guilty and you would have voted guilty. Well please answer these points:

1. How did he manage to defeat the laws of forensic science by leaving no trace at the scene or in his house?
2. Why did the search party walk right past a house Jodi had been found in previously when late home and not even knock the door before going up a pitch black path?
3. Why were no calls to other people she could have been with made apart from to her Gran's before going up a pitch black path?
4. Why was it claimed Jo J never left the house after mid afternoon when he was identified by a witness later as a member of J's family, aka "Stocky Man"?
5. Why did the search party's statements all change later to say the same thing......to say Mitchell went straight to the V?
6. Why was AO never cited to Court when he was in the house when Jodi left?
7. Why did JF and GD say they couldn't remember where they were when the moped was parked at the V?
8. Why did JF shave all his hair off himself after the murder?
9. Why did the moped disappear without trace so soon that the Police never even saw it?
10.Why did JF and GD say they were on the path at 415pm until Police proved it was after 5pm?
10.Why would someone pay money to have a moped disposed of? Nobody crushes vehicles for nothing, there's a charge.
11. Why was there DNA of SK's semen on Jodi's t-shirt? Sorry the transference borrowed T-shirt story doesn't count as it's too ridiculous for words.
12. Why did Ja J say initially there were 2 T-shirts the same, but she didn't know where the other one was, then later claim there were several the same?

That's enough for now. I look forward to your explanations.

Offline William Wallace

His youthful activities were all analysed by the court including his involvement in drugs, the difficulties he had in school, his privileged and some might think fairly affluent lifestyle, his well documented interest in knives, the rather strange urinating into bottles collected in his bedroom (despite his legal representatives trying to block that one but which the trial judge allowed - a decision supported by the appeal court judges).

So it is hardly surprising that his taste in music came into play.  Although I rather think the prosecution were more interested in Manson's interest in portraying a horrific murder which the defilement of Jodi's body called to mind.

How much interest the jury placed on that is anyone's guess but it certainly does give an indication of just how badly Jodi was mutilated, according to the coroner both before and after death.

The jury had viewed photographs of the murder scene and had viewed photographs of Jodi's body and the injuries inflicted on her.

Why are you posting fake news and misleading information? You're just reciting hogwash created by the media. No evidence was ever found that Mitchell had ANY interest in Manson or had ever even heard of the Black Dahlia Murder before the murder. ZERO. There was someone else though who was a huge Manson fan and had his whole album collection. Strange that eh?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 11:07:08 PM by William Wallace »

Offline Paranoid Android

There was someone else though who was a huge Manson fan and had his whole album collection.

Who's that, like?

Offline Paranoid Android

The majority could have been 8-7 but they don't disclose the figures.

Could it have been 13-2?

Offline Venturi Swirl

Aren’t they the same thing...in the end?

BTW you can agree with Dr Lean and still be a Sun-reading mouth breather....it’s just less likely.
@)(++(*. so it’s mainly the intelligentsia believe Luke Mitchell is innocent and that is why “Dr” Lean’s programme was broadcast on Channel 5 where all the other sensational serial killer and shock docs reside is it?  Hilarious.

BTW if you’d read the messages of support and encouragement for Mitchell and Lean on her Facebook page you’d know that many of her supporters don’t appear to have received an education in basic grammar and spelling and seem dimmer than a ten watt bulb for the large part.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 07:33:44 AM by Vertigo Swirl »
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Parky41

The lies from that very first account given until the present day. From LM, and from those who spearhead this campaign. There is only one reason for this. Using both here to tally in with each other. That kindred spirit at the core in all of this. Are lies not the best thing to cover up lies in the first place? Or extraordinary explanation. This fallacy of reasoning to excuse all and everything?

We know LM had no alibi, that he was not home any later that 4.35pm. We know this as there is absolutely nothing to put him at home, and he was seen by AB at 4.55 approx:

Of being home - SM is excluded from this alibi in its entirety. The only brow beating done of SM was by his mother when this pressure was put onto him to lie? - That first realisation for Luke and his mother, that their simple tale of a relaxed dinner was not going to be taken at face value? That dawning of further proof. So they get SM on board, which of course only added to the tale, as being more of a farce. We know this as SM then gives an account of coming downstairs just after 5pm, of speaking to his mother, of the burnt pie. Of returning back up stairs. Coming down again around 10mins later, once dinner was ready. Taking it up to his room and eating it. It was a farce, complete made up story as CM had not gotten home until 5.15pm at the earliest.

So we have no alibi - why all the lies? Why did he need to make up this story?
 
Then we have AB. As with the intricate checking of the story above, of timings and so forth. These guesses and estimates, went over in fine detail. AB was taken on her journey, timings established. And her sighting was before 5pm. After the call to the speaking clock. This fallacy of reasoning across the board. Does not change what it was. That LM was not home. that LM was seen by AB. Then see again by F&W -
Nothing for approx 20mins - then three sightings in the space of around 15-20mins. Then nothing for a further 80mins plus.

Every part of his story, a fabrication of void holes shored over by highly questionable reasoning. The only truthful part. That of those 15mins approx on Newbattle R'd and his 90mins approx with the boys in the woods, getting high and dirty?

Of lying of his whereabouts from 9pm, of being home until around 10.30pm - no he was not. Of all of the search party walking some distance passed this V break - no they did not. It was a lie, in total contrast to the account given by those who were with him. The story of the dog was made up, we know this as the dog was not some 20 yards passed the V. It was at the V. You can not claim a dog reacted to something, at a specific spot - parallel to where Jodi lay on the other side, when all the dog was doing was scurrying about at the V. And of LM turning immediately to his left due to this. - poppycock. The dog was at the V, at the V it was impossible for LM to make claim that he walked to his left due to this. However, Ms Lean does give reason as to why he walked to the left - he was on his own in the woods, he may have wanted to head in the direction the search party were going, feeling safe? - even this doesn't explain it, as, JaJ saw him turn to his left. That they only continued to walk this path, after he had started to walk down, on the inside of this wall. It was only then that this couple had to do any backtracking.

He lied about knowledge of both the V and the woodland.
He lied about carrying knives and possession of cannabis.
He named both the tree and the bobble/scrunchy of sight and colour.
He lied about contact of any sort with KT.
Let's not forget here that complete lack of anything. These ridiculous claims of slight change in voice are proof of what exactly? - Reason as to why there was nothing the other 99.99999% of the time?
He described what Jodi was wearing that evening - right down to those DC shoes and of borrowed clothes?

There is of course much more.

 These lies continue today - anything is required to add weight to, all of the lies told in their first instance?

Of CM - none of the boys from the Abbey gave evidence in court. - lies?
Of theories discussed with Sandra - lies as Sandra firmly denies any such conversation took place, but which one was lying?
That the search trio "had to walk directly passed YW's on their way to the path" - lies?
The V break is hard to see, unless you know what you are looking for - lies?
A witness saw the bike parked at the V - lies and manipulation around this. You can not see the V from where this witness was. - yet the V break is hard to see whilst on this path - lies?
'A mystery man was seen following Jodi onto the path' - lies?
SK, GD, JF and DD were on the path at the crucial time - lies? DD was in his house, he witnessed the boys arrival home at 5.30pm. SK's full name being typed out, is not a typo.
That the search party had to come from the top of Mayfield - lies? They came from just behind Scotts Caravans.
That JF said in his statement that the search party walked passed YW's on their way to the path - lies? This was quickly removed. I remarked of my surprise that Ms Lean would take the word of JF, the liar he is portrayed to be. She said she had a mystery witness to this also (sound familiar?) However, the search trio would have had to walk backwards to do so, not what the did do as they did walk directly to this path. - lies?
That there is clear evidence in phone records that showed that LM had phoned the speaking clock whilst in the house - lies? There is phone records of calls to the speaking clock - they only verify that he had used it, not that he was in the house.

This campaign is wrought with the same type of manipulation, misinformation and lies across the board is it not?  When one can not disprove the damming evidence against LM, other means are required are they not?

After all. everything LM lied about, these further lies, the manipulation is excusable when we have a call that is not inclusive in the defence records - Of AW phoning her daughter. Intelligence?

Offline Brietta

Why are you posting fake news and misleading information? You'er just reciting hogwash created by the media. No evidence was ever found that Mitchell had ANY interest in Manson or had ever even heard of the Black Dahlia Murder before the murder. ZERO. There was someone else though who was a huge Manson fan and had his whole album collection. Strange that eh?

Please do not accuse me of posting fake news and misleading information and do not put words into my mouth.

Where did I say that "No evidence was ever found that Mitchell had ANY interest in Manson or had ever even heard of the Black Dahlia Murder before the murder."

I require and expect two cites from this post of yours regarding
  • the accusation directed at me regarding fake news
  • the accusation directed at me regarding Mitchell and Manson
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline faithlilly

I'm not interested in being proved right - I'd just like to know what happened.

For the record, I never take a paper these days - I wouldn't go near The Sun or The Record for moral reasons, and I wouldn't touch The Daily Mail because I'm not a right-winger who is afraid of foreigners.

Not that it actually matters - it's an absolutely meaningless point that was introduced for no reason other than to attempt to boost the egos of Dr Lean's followers - an attempt that has backfired, btw.

I can entertain the possibility that LM could be innocent - Dr Lean and her followers can't accept the possibility that LM could be guilty - that automatically and logically means that Dr Lean and her followers are less open-minded.

Hopefully folk can move on from this pointless pissing contest, and talk about the actual case instead of trying to land sly digs.

Nothing sly about it. It was an observation made by Corrine and it really is useless to deny that the tabloids played a massive part in stoking up feelings against Luke.

For me the question is not whether Luke is innocent or guilty but, on the evidence presented, was the case proved beyond a reasonable doubt and obviously, as it was a majority decision, it wasn’t.

We can only form opinions on the known evidence and for me that is insufficient to justify firstly the treatment of Luke, especially as he was a minor, and depriving him of his liberty for 20+ years.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Paranoid Android

@)(++(*. so it’s mainly the intelligentsia believe Luke Mitchell is innocent and that is why “Dr” Lean’s programme was broadcast on Channel 5 where all the other sensational serial killer and shock docs reside is it?  Hilarious.

BTW if you’d read the messages of support and encouragement for Mitchell and Lean on her Facebook page you’d know that many of her supporters don’t appear to have received an education in basic grammar and spelling and seem dimmer than a ten watt bulb for the large part.

The main criteria for studying towards a doctorate these days is being able to arrange funding.

Dr Lean's supporters these days are mainly folk who watched and blindly believed the recent documentary - if it's on the telly, it must be true - much like those who blindly believed the sensationalism in The Daily Record at the time of the trial.

The members of the jury, though, sat through all of the evidence presented by experienced professionals - a jury of one's peers is selected as randomly as possible - you'll get all sorts, including people with varying degrees of education - that's the whole idea.

Reading habits don't enter into it.

Offline faithlilly

The main criteria for studying towards a doctorate these days is being able to arrange funding.

Dr Lean's supporters these days are mainly folk who watched and blindly believed the recent documentary - if it's on the telly, it must be true - much like those who blindly believed the sensationalism in The Daily Record at the time of the trial.

The members of the jury, though, sat through all of the evidence presented by experienced professionals - a jury of one's peers is selected as randomly as possible - you'll get all sorts, including people with varying degrees of education - that's the whole idea.

Reading habits don't enter into it.

You talk to me about intellectual arrogance then tar everyone who supports Sandra Lean’s view with the stupid brush. Can you not see the hypocrisy?

As to juries, every single miscarriage of justice that’s ever been perpetrated on an innocent individual has had a misguided jury verdict at it's core. Just think about that....every single one.

And of course our understanding of events are coloured, to an extent, by what we read. It would be foolish to suggest otherwise.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 03:03:14 PM by faithlilly »
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Brietta

The main criteria for studying towards a doctorate these days is being able to arrange funding.

Dr Lean's supporters these days are mainly folk who watched and blindly believed the recent documentary - if it's on the telly, it must be true - much like those who blindly believed the sensationalism in The Daily Record at the time of the trial.

The members of the jury, though, sat through all of the evidence presented by experienced professionals - a jury of one's peers is selected as randomly as possible - you'll get all sorts, including people with varying degrees of education - that's the whole idea.

Reading habits don't enter into it.
I think that having heard all the evidence presented throughout the trial the jury were convinced of Luke Mitchell's guilt.

If Mitchell's guilt had not been proven beyond reasonable the jury had access to either the NOT GUILTY verdict or the NOT PROVEN verdict of which I have heard it said "We think you did it but the prosecution haven't been able to provide enough evidence to prove you did it."

It is an option for Scottish juries and the jury at Mitchell's trial did not avail themselves of it
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline faithlilly

I think that having heard all the evidence presented throughout the trial the jury were convinced of Luke Mitchell's guilt.

If Mitchell's guilt had not been proven beyond reasonable the jury had access to either the NOT GUILTY verdict or the NOT PROVEN verdict of which I have heard it said "We think you did it but the prosecution haven't been able to provide enough evidence to prove you did it."

It is an option for Scottish juries and the jury at Mitchell's trial did not avail themselves of it

I believe Nicola Sturgeon, a lawyer herself, is considering scrapping the Not Proven verdict.

Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Venturi Swirl

You talk to me about intellectual arrogance then tar everyone who supports Sandra Lean’s view with the stupid brush. Can you not see the hypocrisy?

As to juries, every single miscarriage of justice that’s ever been perpetrated on an innocent individual has had a misguided jury verdict at it's core. Just think about that....every single one.

And of course our understanding of events are coloured, to an extent, by what we read. It would be foolish to suggest otherwise.
But you started by doing exactly the same in reverse and you talk about hypocrisy?!  Stunning. Either it’s fair game to accuse the other side of being intellectually sub par (as you did) or it isn’t.  Which is it to be?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

You talk to me about intellectual arrogance then tar everyone who supports Sandra Lean’s view with the stupid brush. Can you not see the hypocrisy?

As to juries, every single miscarriage of justice that’s ever been perpetrated on an innocent individual has had a misguided jury verdict at it's core. Just think about that....every single one.

And of course our understanding of events are coloured, to an extent, by what we read. It would be foolish to suggest otherwise.
Juries come to decisions based on evidence presented in court.  Why was Mitchell’s lawyer so incompetent that he was unable to convince them (as you are apparently convinced) that the evidence he presented totally exonerated his client?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline mrswah

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Juries come to decisions based on evidence presented in court.  Why was Mitchell’s lawyer so incompetent that he was unable to convince them (as you are apparently convinced) that the evidence he presented totally exonerated his client?

I wouldn't be surprised if, in this case, the jury was also  swayed by local feelings, and by what they had read in the papers.