UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The removal of blonde blue-eyed children from Roma camps. => Topic started by: Sherlock Holmes on October 19, 2013, 01:30:45 AM
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Could Madeleine's story involve anything like this?
Greek police appeal over mystery 4-year-old
blonde girl found in a Roma camp near Farsala.
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/270/media/images/70578000/jpg/_70578332_019685763-1.jpg)
The little girl is "confused" and "shocked" by the changes
in her environment, the charity looking after her says.
Greek police are trying to figure out the identity of a young blonde girl, found living on a Roma settlement with a family she did not resemble.
DNA tests revealed the child, called Maria and aged around four, was not related to the couple she lived with. The little girl is now being looked after by a charity. Her photo has been released to help find her family.
Officials fear she may have been a victim of abduction or child trafficking. Police are appealing internationally as the little girl looks like she might be from northern or eastern Europe.
Raid
Police raided the Roma camp, near Farsala in central Greece, on suspicion of criminal activity. They noticed the lack of resemblance between the blonde-haired, blue-eyed little girl and her parents, and found further discrepancies when they investigated the family's documents. The couple had registered different numbers of children with different regional family registries. The woman claimed to have given birth to six children within a 10-month period.
'Begging'
When questioned about how they came to have Maria, the couple gave "constantly changing claims," Thessalia Province Police Director Vassilis Halatsis said.
They have been arrested on suspicion of abducting a minor.
The president of the Smile of the Child organisation that is looking after the little girl, Kostas Yaaopoulos, says the child is confused and shocked by the change in her environment.
She was being used to beg on the streets of Larissa because she was blonde and cute, he alleged.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world a Europe
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Could Madeleine's story involve anything like this?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24589614
The Portugeuse police investigation didn't conclude so ... and Scotland Yard, after a two and a half year review/ investigation have not concluded so either
... but if we are envisioning every possible explanation for this child's disappearance, however unevidenced and obscure, then yes, I suppose it could have
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Thank you for posting this story Sherlock, I find it absolutely amazing that this is going on.
I hope you don't mind, I changed the title to reflect the significance of this story.
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It's a very sad story. Tragic to see the expression in her eyes - redolent of confusion and loss.
The dyed hair I find particularly heartbreaking. You could almost count the months she has been missing from the inches of her natural hair, like aging a tree from its rings.
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Poor little mite with such sad eyes, reduced to begging on the street... no doubt there'll be hundreds of offers to take her into their care, if her genuine parents can't be found.
If only a similar headline with Madeleine's and Ben Needham's name would one day appear in the news.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2465942/Police-appeal-help-identifying-blonde-girl-4-living-gypsy-camp-Greece.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2465942/Police-appeal-help-identifying-blonde-girl-4-living-gypsy-camp-Greece.html)
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I agree wholeheartedly with those comments guys, it must give particular hope to the Needham's who have always insisted that their son Ben was abducted by gypsies on the Greek island of Kos.
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well it was discussed that madeleine was taken by gypsies on many forums,and im sure some gypsy camps were searched in the early days,after sightings of madeleine were reported ..
also Hewlett told police gypsies had taken her,
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well it was discussed that madeleine was taken by gypsies on many forums,and im sure some gypsy camps were searched in the early days,after sightings of madeleine were reported ..
also Hewlett told police gypsies had taken her,
I think the abducted by gypsies scenario is probably the only serious contender when it comes to finding Madeleine alive. Gypsies live a very secretive nomadic lifestyle and travel widely.
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I think the abducted by gypsies scenario is probably the only serious contender when it comes to finding Madeleine alive. Gypsies live a very secretive nomadic lifestyle and travel widely.
I agree john ..it was discussed at length ..after a witness reported seeing a little girl being whisked off in a gypsy cart covered with a blanket.
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I think the abducted by gypsies scenario is probably the only serious contender when it comes to finding Madeleine alive. Gypsies live a very secretive nomadic lifestyle and travel widely.
But without evidence, it has to be inconclusive.
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But without evidence, it has to be inconclusive.
Portuguese police have already investigated a report by holidaymaker Andre van Wyk that he had seen a girl resembling Madeleine being taken in a cart to a gypsy camp near Portimao, about 16kms from where Maddie disappeared.
but it cannot be ruled out though.
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Could Madeleine's story involve anything like this?
Greek police appeal over mystery 4-year-old
blonde girl found in a Roma camp near Farsala.
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/270/media/images/70578000/jpg/_70578332_019685763-1.jpg)
The little girl is "confused" and "shocked" by the changes
in her environment, the charity looking after her says.
Greek police are trying to figure out the identity of a young blonde girl, found living on a Roma settlement with a family she did not resemble.
DNA tests revealed the child, called Maria and aged around four, was not related to the couple she lived with. The little girl is now being looked after by a charity. Her photo has been released to help find her family.
Officials fear she may have been a victim of abduction or child trafficking. Police are appealing internationally as the little girl looks like she might be from northern or eastern Europe.
Raid
Police raided the Roma camp, near Farsala in central Greece, on suspicion of criminal activity. They noticed the lack of resemblance between the blonde-haired, blue-eyed little girl and her parents, and found further discrepancies when they investigated the family's documents. The couple had registered different numbers of children with different regional family registries. The woman claimed to have given birth to six children within a 10-month period.
'Begging'
When questioned about how they came to have Maria, the couple gave "constantly changing claims," Thessalia Province Police Director Vassilis Halatsis said.
They have been arrested on suspicion of abducting a minor.
The president of the Smile of the Child organisation that is looking after the little girl, Kostas Yaaopoulos, says the child is confused and shocked by the change in her environment.
She was being used to beg on the streets of Larissa because she was blonde and cute, he alleged.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world a Europe
"Greek police are trying to figure out the identity of a young blonde girl"
is this little girl not on a missing list ?
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Portuguese police have already investigated a report by holidaymaker Andre van Wyk that he had seen a girl resembling Madeleine being taken in a cart to a gypsy camp near Portimao, about 16kms from where Maddie disappeared.
but it cannot be ruled out though.
Indeed, it is inconclusive and without hard evidence will remain so.
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Indeed, it is inconclusive and without hard evidence will remain so.
are you SY jassi ?
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are you SY jassi ?
Of course not, but I would have thought my statement was self evident.
Without proper proof, something can never be conclusive - it remains a theory.
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Of course not, but I would have thought my statement was self evident.
Without proper proof, something can never be conclusive - it remains a theory.
yes a theory jassi..just like Amarals theory is inconclusive ..you agree ? >@@(*&)
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Quite, nothing is as yet conclusive.
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Quite, nothing is as yet conclusive.
yes quite!!
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Well it proves once again that children have been abducted in the past, missing for years, presumed dead and then by complete fluke an incidence occurs and an abducted child is found.
I guess we all live in hope that Madeleine and Ben's discovery will one day make these same headlines.
miracles do happen.never give up hope 8((()*/
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According to EuroNews she was found or taken or bought at birth.
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According to EuroNews she was found or taken or bought at birth.
have you got a link please anne ?
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I think the abducted by gypsies scenario is probably the only serious contender when it comes to finding Madeleine alive. Gypsies live a very secretive nomadic lifestyle and travel widely.
John do you really seriously think that with the access gypsies have to children in their travels, they would target the daughter of British holidaymakers with all its inherent risks ?
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John do you really seriously think that with the access gypsies have to children in their travels, they would target the daughter of British holidaymakers with all its inherent risks ?
Not directly, perhaps, but what if someone wanted to get rid of her ?
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who ever abducted madeleine could of been needing cash ? sold her on to gypsies ..
just a thought you know.
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have you got a link please anne ?
http://www.lematin.ch/faits-divers/gros-mystere-fillette-identifiee-4-ans/story/24613299 (http://www.lematin.ch/faits-divers/gros-mystere-fillette-identifiee-4-ans/story/24613299)
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Not directly, perhaps, but what if someone wanted to get rid of her ?
But there was a huge reward for her safe return. Surely that would be worth more to the gypsies than Madeleine ?
ETA Seems the media are now saying the child was adopted not abducted.
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But there was a huge reward for her safe return. Surely that would be worth more to the gypsies than Madeleine ?
ETA Seems the media are now saying the child was adopted not abducted.
One might thinks so, but gypsies aren't renowned for co-operating with authorities, so might ignore such a reward.
The fact that no one has come forward to claim such a reward suggests that she may not be returnable.
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One might thinks so, but gypsies aren't renowned for co-operating with authorities, so might ignore such a reward.
The fact that no one has come forward to claim such a reward suggests that she may not be returnable.
The reward was two million pound at one point I believe Jassi, a hard sum to ignore and if the gypsies had had no part in Madeleine's abduction what did they have to fear ? I do agree with you however regarding the reason the reward has never been claimed.
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John do you really seriously think that with the access gypsies have to children in their travels, they would target the daughter of British holidaymakers with all its inherent risks ?
Yes of course. Gypsies are very daring, they operate on a different set of rules to the rest of society.
I will point out that the poor we tot can only speak Romany and that would point to her being taken at a very young age. The dye in her hair also points to an attempt to disguise her appearance.
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Yes of course. Gypsies are very daring, they operate on a different set of rules to the rest of society.
But why would they want to? There must be thousands of vulnerable children in eastern European countries who would be much more accessible at far less personal risk.
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But why would they want to? There must be thousands of vulnerable children in eastern European countries who would be much more accessible at far less personal risk.
Exactly.
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It seems other children in this gypsy family couldn't possibly be theirs : two or three were born in 6 months time.. But Gypsies steal hens, not children.
It seems the lady managed to obtain birth certificates saying she had just had a baby (probably showing the new-born). The little girl only speaks the gypsy language but understands some Greek. I think it's terrible to have torn her all of a sudden from her family while she was playing with other children. She wept for hours and hours and hours.
This case has nothing to do with Madeleine.
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It seems other children in this gypsy family couldn't possibly be theirs : two or three were born in 6 months time.. But Gypsies steal hens, not children.
It seems the lady managed to obtain birth certificates saying she had just had a baby (probably showing the new-born). The little girl only speaks the gypsy language but understands some Greek. I think it's terrible to have torn her all of a sudden from her family while she was playing with other children. She wept for hours and hours and hours.
This case has nothing to do with Madeleine.
Of course it hasnt, but we get pathetic headlines like this and the Mccanns PR hijacking the story, as they have done so many many tmes before, a story which would never make it in the UK ordinarily
Maddie Found in Greece! Unless they are taking the pee
https://mobile.twitter.com/SkyNews/status/391310310549639168/photo/1?screen_name=SkyNews
There is no evidence this child was stolen rather than being given away, sold, or left as a newborn and found...where is the missing child that has now been found on Interpol as a stolen or missing.......
Still some will believe anything...one commentator in the daily mail said it could be Madeleine if she wasnt given much to eat!!
8-)(--)
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It seems other children in this gypsy family couldn't possibly be theirs : two or three were born in 6 months time.. But Gypsies steal hens, not children.
It seems the lady managed to obtain birth certificates saying she had just had a baby (probably showing the new-born). The little girl only speaks the gypsy language but understands some Greek. I think it's terrible to have torn her all of a sudden from her family while she was playing with other children. She wept for hours and hours and hours.
This case has nothing to do with Madeleine.
"This case has nothing to do with Madeleine."
Yep thats what I thought.
Other than her being a girl, no connection.
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Desperate times require desperate measures.
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maybe not ...but it gives madeleine's family hope that theres a possibility madeleine could be found ..
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.one commentator in the daily mail said it could be Madeleine if she wasnt given much to eat!!
8-)(--)
8(8-)) She doesn't look physically rachitic, she was described as being in a state of shock... Now I understand why : separated from her family, people who might traffic arms or drugs but likely loved her.
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The Portugeuse police investigation didn't conclude so ... and Scotland Yard, after a two and a half year review/ investigation have not concluded so either
... but if we are envisioning every possible explanation for this child's disappearance, however unevidenced and obscure, then yes, I suppose it could have
Scotland Yard, as far as we know, have not concluded anything, because they have not reached the end of their investigation. We are not even sure what, if any, hypothesis they have as to what may have happened.
Their only hint seems to be that they are considering an abduction, possibly involving a number of people - but that could mean almost anything.
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But why would they want to? There must be thousands of vulnerable children in eastern European countries who would be much more accessible at far less personal risk.
Perhaps Madeleine was in Eastern Europe, or in a place where she was very vulnerable.
We have no reason to assume that the person(s) who took her had any care or concern for her welfare. In fact, by definition, they didn't.
If they kept her alive or in good health for any period of time, it would only have been because it suited their purposes. If her presence became inconvenient for them, they would have disposed of her, or sold or passed her on.
Child trafficking is a chain with many links - different types of people in different places, procuring and holding on to children for different purposes.
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Perhaps Madeleine was in Eastern Europe, or in a place where she was very vulnerable.
We have no reason to assume that the person(s) who took her had any care or concern for her welfare. In fact, by definition, they didn't.
If they kept her alive or in good health for any period of time, it would only have been because it suited their purposes. If her presence became inconvenient for them, they would have disposed of her, or sold or passed her on.
Child trafficking is a chain with many links - different types of people in different places, procuring and holding on to children for different purposes.
That is certainly true.
I was commenting on the idea that gypsies would have entered 5A to take her, when there would be so many less risky ways of them obtaining children.
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thhis poor little girl is reported to be deeply traumatised by being taken from the only enviroment she knows and her little friends are asking for her it proves if maddie was alive she would not just enter back into the mcanns lives like some seem to think she would be deeply traumatised like this little girl imo
and the little girl is the same age as maddie was when she vanished so imagine iif maddie is still alive now she would have no memory of gerry and kate or any of her family the reunion would traumatise her yet again thats why it is annoying when i read that people think if maddie is alive and found it will be a happy ending and maddie would slot in like she was never away it wont trauma does not go away
if maddie is alive somewhere she may have friends and people who she thinks is family imagine having to leave that at aged 10 ( not exusing any abdcutor if thats the case btw just saying from imo maddies point of view)
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Massive resourses have been used in this case, with many millions spent
... and six years later we are fed some Enid Blytonesque "'Kidnapped by Gypsies' tale ?
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That is certainly true.
I was commenting on the idea that gypsies would have entered 5A to take her, when there would be so many less risky ways of them obtaining children.
Yes, I don't know if gypsies would have gone as far as to do that.
I don't know how they actually do go about acquiring children (always thought this was a myth, but apparently it isn't). Surely it would be easier to acquire a child from someone who no longer wanted that child, than pay a premium to order an abduction or take part in a risky abduction itself.
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Massive resourses have been used in this case, with many millions spent
... and six years later we are fed some Enid Blytonesque "'Kidnapped by Gypsies' tale ?
exactly my post above is all hypothetical im saying if maddie truly was alive then if/when she was ever found imo she would b as traumatised as this little girl is
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Yes, I don't know if gypsies would have gone as far as to do that.
I don't know how they actually do go about acquiring children (always thought this was a myth, but apparently it isn't). Surely it would be easier to acquire a child from someone who no longer wanted that child, than pay a premium to order an abduction or take park in a risky abduction itself.
Those are my thoughts, too.
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Massive resourses have been used in this case, with many millions spent
... and six years later we are fed some Enid Blytonesque "'Kidnapped by Gypsies' tale ?
Don't think it's as simple as that, icabod.
If we are going to explore abduction as a possibility in the Madeleine case, then that involves keeping a very open mind as to the actual scenarios under consideration. There are so many reasons why a child would be abducted, and with very little to go on, almost any one of them is a possibility in this case.
That doesn't mean that we claim on no evidence that such and such has happened (like the Daily Mail et al) and go to the wildest possibility first.
But what we can do is explore the theoretical possibilities in order to see if we can construct some kind of hypothesis - a valid and necessary exercise.
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Don't think it's as simple as that, icabod.
If we are going to explore abduction as a possibility in the Madeleine case, then that involves keeping a very open mind as to the actual scenarios under consideration. There are so many reasons why a child would be abducted, and with very little to go on, almost any one of them is a possibility in this case.
That doesn't mean that we claim on no evidence that such and such has happened (like the Daily Mail et al) and go to the wildest possibility first.
But what we can do is explore the theoretical possibilities in order to see if we can construct some kind of hypothesis - a valid and necessary exercise.
Could you send the oldest of BS Irregulars listing the known cases on the planet of a little child under 5 but above 3 to have been snatched from bed in order to compare the reasons why ?
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Yes, I don't know if gypsies would have gone as far as to do that.
I don't know how they actually do go about acquiring children (always thought this was a myth, but apparently it isn't). Surely it would be easier to acquire a child from someone who no longer wanted that child, than pay a premium to order an abduction or take part in a risky abduction itself.
Me too. I'm quite uncomfortable with the language being used. I'm happy to be corrected should I be wrong, but until then, I used the terms 'a Roma family have abducted/illegally adopted a child'.
The image of gypsies snatching children is just racist imo.
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The image of gypsies snatching children is just racist imo.
Old irrational fears, at least.
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Me too. I'm quite uncomfortable with the language being used. I'm happy to be corrected should I be wrong, but until then, I used the terms 'a Roma family have abducted/illegally adopted a child'.
The image of gypsies snatching children is just racist imo.
I was also taught that this stereotype of gypsies is racist and wrong, and I feel uncomfortable about it.
But what is the moral and material difference between 'abduction' and 'snatching'?
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Could you send the oldest of BS Irregulars listing the known cases on the planet of a little child under 5 but above 3 to have been snatched from bed in order to compare the reasons why ?
I believe there are cases worldwide where abductors have entered homes and taken children from their beds whilst the parents are sleeping. Not many of them, but they exist.
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I believe there are cases worldwide where abductors have entered homes and taken children from their beds whilst the parents are sleeping. Not many of them, but they exist.
Were they gypsies ?
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I was also taught that this stereotype of gypsies is racist and wrong, and I feel uncomfortable about it.
But what is the moral and material difference between 'abduction' and 'snatching'?
Sherlock, I'm absolutely sure that you don't need me to point out that 'snatching' plays up to the stereotype of an evil gypsy whereas the other is the normal word to use in that type of criminal offence.
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Where they gypsies ?
As I said above, icabod, it would be more likely for gypsies, if they are involved in missing children cases, to acquire children at a different stage along the child trafficking line.
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I believe there are cases worldwide where abductors have entered homes and taken children from their beds whilst the parents are sleeping. Not many of them, but they exist.
Can you have the European 10 last years ones listed ?
I've never heard of any. There's a British case from bath with mum letting the perpetrator get in.
In fact the only archetypal from bed cases I know are the Kent child and the Lindbergh toddler. But it was shown rapidly that the shutters hadn't been forced in the first case and, recently, that the second was a staged abduction.
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Can you have the European 10 last years ones listed ?
I've never heard of any. There's a British case from bath with mum letting the perpetrator get in.
In fact the only archetypal from bed cases I know are the Kent child and the Lindbergh toddler. But it was shown rapidly that the shutters hadn't been forced in the first case and, recently, that the second was a staged abduction.
I would be very interested to see the 'abducted from bed by a stranger' statistics too
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Observe that both those famous false abductions weren't only "from bed" but "through window"..
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Sherlock, I'm absolutely sure that you don't need me to point out that 'snatching' plays up to the stereotype of an evil gypsy whereas the other is the normal word to use in that type of criminal offence.
Semantics.
So it's racist to say that gypsies 'snatch' children, but acceptable to claim that they 'abduct' them or buy and sell them?
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Observe that both those famous false abductions weren't only "from bed" but "through window"..
coincidences as Kate McCann might say.
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I would be very interested to see the 'abducted from bed by a stranger' statistics too
what about the abducted blonde girl from the bed by a stranger whose parents were doctors satistics
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what about the abducted blonde girl from the bed by a stranger whose parents were doctors satistics
Yeah & what about the not abducted blonde girl from the bed which appeared not to have been slept in statistics.
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Who was it said "lies, damned lies and statistics"
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coincidences as Kate McCann might say.
Collective beliefs are good vectors for stereotypes.
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Semantics.
So it's racist to say that gypsies 'snatch' children, but acceptable to claim that they 'abduct' them or buy and sell them?
... either way, cream buns and lashings of ginger beer would be in order
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... either way, cream buns and lashings of ginger beer would be in order
Very funny, icabod
By the way I am doing some homework now on abductions from bed.
Would just like to reiterate to you and all that I am not suggesting that Gypsies took Madeleine, or are involved somehow, merely that it is certainly a possibility - amongst the many possibilities we have if we are using the abduction theory as a working hypothesis.
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Semantics.
So it's racist to say that gypsies 'snatch' children, but acceptable to claim that they 'abduct' them or buy and sell them?
No. As I said, it's fine to say 'a Roma family abducted a child', as that seems to be the case. Black men sometimes commit crimes, that doesn't mean it's ok to say black men are criminals.
Funnily enough I was going to accuse you of semantics!
Sherlock, you've repeatedly demonstrated your intelligence on these boards. You don't need me to explain this to you.
You're well aware of the point I was making. Even if I was making it clumsily, you're more than capable of deducing what I meant.
I wasn't at any point accusing you or anyone else who has posted on this topic of racism. I was expressing my own discomfort with the language around the subject.
I don't want to row or detract from the topic in any way, so I'll leave it there.
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thhis poor little girl is reported to be deeply traumatised by being taken from the only enviroment she knows and her little friends are asking for her it proves if maddie was alive she would not just enter back into the mcanns lives like some seem to think she would be deeply traumatised like this little girl imo
and the little girl is the same age as maddie was when she vanished so imagine iif maddie is still alive now she would have no memory of gerry and kate or any of her family the reunion would traumatise her yet again thats why it is annoying when i read that people think if maddie is alive and found it will be a happy ending and maddie would slot in like she was never away it wont trauma does not go away
if maddie is alive somewhere she may have friends and people who she thinks is family imagine having to leave that at aged 10 ( not exusing any abdcutor if thats the case btw just saying from imo maddies point of view)
I don't think that anyone here has ever stated that Madeleine would just be able," to slot in like she was never away." In the event of Madeleine being found I would expect it to be handled by professionals working with all of the family.
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I think so much would depend on the timescale. If found, she might be an adult, like Ben Needham would be, and may have no wish to have close contact with the parents or family. It may not be the happy family reunion anticipated.
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Re abducted by stranger from bed statistics.....I bet most people can thnk of half a dozen faked abductions where the baby/toddler was said to have gone missing from bed than real ones, and a couple unsolved ones, just a thought....
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what about the abducted blonde girl from the bed by a stranger whose parents were doctors satistics
Yeah & what about the not abducted blonde girl from the bed which appeared not to have been slept in statistics.
surely these statistics must be available
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surely these statistics must be available
And if they are not then someone should see to it that they are.
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I have been doing a bit of research into child abduction from bed and I must admit that the only examples I can find are American ones - thought there are a good few examples nonetheless:
Elizabeth Smart, 2002. This is a very famous case, in the US as at least, and an interesting and involved one. An abductor entered the home in the middle of the night and took Elizabeth, then aged 14, from a bedroom she shared with her 9 year old sister. The sister witnessed the abductor at length, but did not call out to alert anyone as she was afraid he would kill her and her sister.
Elizabeth was admittedly much older than Madeleine - and therefore, one would think, harder to subdue and exit with undetected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Smart_kidnapping
Rosie Tapia, abducted from her bed in 1995, age 6, and murdered.
http://mylifeofcrime.wordpress.com/2007/03/13/rosie-tapia-murder-81395-salt-lake-city-ut-unsolved-murder/
Both girls were from Salt Lake City, Utah.
And a more recent example, from Los Angeles:
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/29/local/la-me-kidnapped-20130329
And another case, from Georgia, that involved a burglary:
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/09/17/ayvani-hope-perez-missing-georgia-home-invasion
No sign of gypsies, though it's a completely different demographic.
I did find a related piece on the topic of abduction from bed, however:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865558906/Child-abductions-from-homes-exceptionally-rare-expert-says.html
The piece contains an interesting insight:
''And while such brazen abductions are a parent's worst fear, they don't happen often, according to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
"We do see them from time to time, but they are exceptionally rare," said Bob Lowery, executive director of the Virginia-based center's missing child division.
"We have the expectation that when we are at home, we are safe," he said. "This is a different kind of predator that will engage in something that high-risk because of the motivation for what he wants to do with that child."
Sherlock's question from this article is:
Does that statement, if true, suggest that someone willing to enter a child's bedroom at night, with all the risks that that entails, would be unlikely to be a person merely in the employ of higher-up or group who wanted a child to sell or pass on, or use for their own purposes?
For him to have been prepared to make such a brazen move, would he be a man operation alone, driven by his own nefarious drives?
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No. As I said, it's fine to say 'a Roma family abducted a child', as that seems to be the case. Black men sometimes commit crimes, that doesn't mean it's ok to say black men are criminals.
Funnily enough I was going to accuse you of semantics!
Sherlock, you've repeatedly demonstrated your intelligence on these boards. You don't need me to explain this to you.
You're well aware of the point I was making. Even if I was making it clumsily, you're more than capable of deducing what I meant.
I wasn't at any point accusing you or anyone else who has posted on this topic of racism. I was expressing my own discomfort with the language around the subject.
I don't want to row or detract from the topic in any way, so I'll leave it there.
Yes, Cariad, we can go round and around the garden with semantics! I just wanted to clarify I wasn't saying that 'all' gypsies snatch or abduct - merely that there appear to be some cases where they do.
Anyway, I agree we ought to try to steer clear of these types of statements on this forum whether they are strictly speaking OK or not.
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"This case has nothing to do with Madeleine."
Yep thats what I thought.
Other than her being a girl, no connection.
so why has it been brought here on madeleine news may I ask ?
-
"We do see them from time to time, but they are exceptionally rare," said Bob Lowery, executive director of the Virginia-based center's missing child division.
"We have the expectation that when we are at home, we are safe," he said. "This is a different kind of predator that will engage in something that high-risk because of the motivation for what he wants to do with that child."
Sherlock's question from this article is:
Does that statement, if true, suggest that someone willing to enter a child's bedroom at night, with all the risks that that entails, would be unlikely to be a person merely in the employ of higher-up or group who wanted a child to sell or pass on, or use for their own purposes?
For him to have been prepared to make such a brazen move, would he be a man operation alone, driven by his own nefarious drives?
Thanks for your research, SH.
Would Madeleine be the first case of abduction from bed in Europe ?
Yes, we expect to be safe at home. And especially in our bed where we're extremely vulnerable when sleeping. The bed is where we start our life and where we finish it (normally). The most intimate space, a kind of sanctuary.
This is why abduction from bed is so appalling.
The person capable to abduct from bed must have a powerful motive indeed.
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The Roma house at Farsala, Greece, where 4-year-old Maria was found by police.
(http://i.imgur.com/KVgNBcc.jpg)
More pics... (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pictured-house-stolen-blonde-girl-2470384)
The woman who posed as the child's mother said she was given to her by another Romanian woman.
This is the house where a stolen four-year-old girl was living with a gypsy family after allegedly being snatched from her parents.
The discovery of the mystery blonde child, known only as Maria, in Greece has sparked an international search to find her true family.
She was found alongside 13 other children at a Roma gypsy camp in Farsala on Wednesday.
Police became suspicious because she bore no resemblance to the couple who claimed to be her parents.
DNA tests confirm they were not related and the 40-year-old woman and a 39-year-old man have been charged with kidnap.
Speaking from her prison cell on Friday, the woman who posed as Maria's mother said she has loved and cared for the child as if she were her own.
She claimed she was given the youngster two years ago by a Romanian woman to look after while she went shopping and she never came back.
"We didn't harm her. We love her and she loves us... we gave her everything we could, like we do for our other children," she said.
Police chief Vasilis Halatsis fears the couple are involved in a lucrative benefits racket.
They claim to have three families, and get handouts of around £6,900 a months.
Read more... (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pictured-house-stolen-blonde-girl-2470384#ixzz2iDvjiHv8)
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im beginning to wonder if this little girl was ever missing at all ..no one has come forward to claim her. >@@(*&)
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Quote:
British parents are among hundreds of desperate families to have got in contact to claim the girl could belong to them.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pictured-house-stolen-blonde-girl-2470384
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Quote:
British parents are among hundreds of desperate families to have got in contact to claim the girl could belong to them.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pictured-house-stolen-blonde-girl-2470384
HundredS of families who have lost a blond green eyes now four years old child ?
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This case ........ >@@(*&)
-
Interesting story but nothing to do with the Maddie case
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HundredS of families who have lost a blond green eyes now four years old child ?
Over a thousand, now, according to the Sunday Times. Amazing
-
HundredS of families who have lost a blond green eyes now four years old child ?
And yet here in Britain we never heard about these abductions at the time....
I wish the papers would mention Ben Needham too. That Mirror article didn't.
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And yet here in Britain we never heard about these abductions at the time....
I wish the papers would mention Ben Needham too. That Mirror article didn't.
What about those of the 14 children of the gypsy family who can't be their biological ones ?
Were they left with the family because they looked like gypsies ?
Poor little girl who is talked Greek, not her language.
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And yet here in Britain we never heard about these abductions at the time....
I wish the papers would mention Ben Needham too. That Mirror article didn't.
Yes it did....Campaigners for missing toddler Ben Needham say the case shares "significant" links with his disappearance in 1991.
Check out all the latest News, Sport & Celeb gossip at Mirror.co.uk http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pictured-house-stolen-blonde-girl-2470384#ixzz2iFxuzTG1
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook
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I have been doing a bit of research into child abduction from bed and I must admit that the only examples I can find are American ones - thought there are a good few examples nonetheless:
Elizabeth Smart, 2002. This is a very famous case, in the US as at least, and an interesting and involved one. An abductor entered the home in the middle of the night and took Elizabeth, then aged 14, from a bedroom she shared with her 9 year old sister. The sister witnessed the abductor at length, but did not call out to alert anyone as she was afraid he would kill her and her sister.
Elizabeth was admittedly much older than Madeleine - and therefore, one would think, harder to subdue and exit with undetected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Smart_kidnapping
Rosie Tapia, abducted from her bed in 1995, age 6, and murdered.
http://mylifeofcrime.wordpress.com/2007/03/13/rosie-tapia-murder-81395-salt-lake-city-ut-unsolved-murder/
Both girls were from Salt Lake City, Utah.
And a more recent example, from Los Angeles:
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/29/local/la-me-kidnapped-20130329
And another case, from Georgia, that involved a burglary:
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/09/17/ayvani-hope-perez-missing-georgia-home-invasion
No sign of gypsies, though it's a completely different demographic.
I did find a related piece on the topic of abduction from bed, however:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865558906/Child-abductions-from-homes-exceptionally-rare-expert-says.html
The piece contains an interesting insight:
''And while such brazen abductions are a parent's worst fear, they don't happen often, according to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
"We do see them from time to time, but they are exceptionally rare," said Bob Lowery, executive director of the Virginia-based center's missing child division.
"We have the expectation that when we are at home, we are safe," he said. "This is a different kind of predator that will engage in something that high-risk because of the motivation for what he wants to do with that child."
Sherlock's question from this article is:
Does that statement, if true, suggest that someone willing to enter a child's bedroom at night, with all the risks that that entails, would be unlikely to be a person merely in the employ of higher-up or group who wanted a child to sell or pass on, or use for their own purposes?
For him to have been prepared to make such a brazen move, would he be a man operation alone, driven by his own nefarious drives?
Thanks Sherlock.
About Elizabeth Smart and Rosie Tapia I have many doubts, I think that in the first case the teen was involved and in the second the family had something to do with it. The other cases I don't remember...but I surely will read about them with my utmost attention.
I can't respond to your question. The human mind is too mysterious to know what moves it.
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And yet here in Britain we never heard about these abductions at the time....
I wish the papers would mention Ben Needham too. That Mirror article didn't.
Unfortunately it is as if any UK missing child didn't matter anymore.
I feel deeply for those families and hope that someday they will get at least a little bit of the attention that the McCann have received, not for them, but for their children.
-
Ben Needham has been missing for almost 2 decades, isn't it time people care about what happened to him?!
Why is Cameron financing a millionaire campaign to salvage the McCann and hasn't moved a finger to help the Needham family?
Does it take Greece to hold a EU summit like the one that happened in Portugal in order for the installed power to negotiate a search - in this case it would be to find a child not to keep it hidden.
-
About Elizabeth Smart and Rosie Tapia I have many doubts, I think that in the first case the teen was involved
ES knew the guy, there might have been some seduction process.
-
Thanks Sherlock.
About Elizabeth Smart and Rosie Tapia I have many doubts, I think that in the first case the teen was involved and in the second the family had something to do with it. The other cases I don't remember...but I surely will read about them with my utmost attention.
I can't respond to your question. The human mind is too mysterious to know what moves it.
Thanks for your considered reply, Luz.
-
ES knew the guy, there might have been some seduction process.
I wouldn't call a knife a tool of seduction....but each to his own...
Her sister, in the same bedroom as Elizabeth as the abduction took place, recognised the voice of the abductor but couldn't place it. Months later she remembered that the voice was that of someone who had done handywork at their house.
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Interesting story but nothing to do with the Maddie case
Nothing to do with the case directly, no.
But my thoughts are that if Madeleine is alive, or was alive for a period of time after her disappearance, it may well be that she changed hands, perhaps more than once, either due to the publicity campaign or something else.
It is worth bearing in mind that there are many different options as to what could have happened, and unfortunately something like this is a possibility, if a small one.
And welcome to the forum, Apostate!
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it may well be that she changed hands
She wasn't a baby !
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I wouldn't call a knife a tool of seduction....but each to his own...
Her sister, in the same bedroom as Elizabeth as the abduction took place, recognised the voice of the abductor but couldn't place it. Months later she remembered that the voice was that of someone who had done handywork at their house.
There's no evidence about the knife.. and abductor and abducted stayed quite a time in the place, talking, that's how the sister heard the abductor's voice.
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The Roma house at Farsala, Greece, where 4-year-old Maria was found by police.
(http://i.imgur.com/KVgNBcc.jpg)
More pics... (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pictured-house-stolen-blonde-girl-2470384)
The woman who posed as the child's mother said she was given to her by another Romanian woman.
This is the house where a stolen four-year-old girl was living with a gypsy family after allegedly being snatched from her parents.
The discovery of the mystery blonde child, known only as Maria, in Greece has sparked an international search to find her true family.
She was found alongside 13 other children at a Roma gypsy camp in Farsala on Wednesday.
Police became suspicious because she bore no resemblance to the couple who claimed to be her parents.
DNA tests confirm they were not related and the 40-year-old woman and a 39-year-old man have been charged with kidnap.
Speaking from her prison cell on Friday, the woman who posed as Maria's mother said she has loved and cared for the child as if she were her own.
She claimed she was given the youngster two years ago by a Romanian woman to look after while she went shopping and she never came back.
"We didn't harm her. We love her and she loves us... we gave her everything we could, like we do for our other children," she said.
Police chief Vasilis Halatsis fears the couple are involved in a lucrative benefits racket.
They claim to have three families, and get handouts of around £6,900 a months.
Read more... (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pictured-house-stolen-blonde-girl-2470384#ixzz2iDvjiHv8)
WOW, miracles do happen, apparently. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
However, the information on these cards suggests that the women was able to give birth to three children in a five-month period in 1993 and a further three children within three months around 1995.
Mirror.co.uk http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/who-four-year-old-blonde-girl-found-2467385#ixzz2iHfkfEWE
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Clearly it's not just the UK that has benefit cheats.
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There's no evidence about the knife.. and abductor and abducted stayed quite a time in the place, talking, that's how the sister heard the abductor's voice.
I thought that the parents found that a downstairs window screen had been slashed with a knife, shortly after they discovered their daughter had gone?
I read that that's what made the parents believe the sister's account of events. The sister came into their bedroom shortly after the abduction and described the whole episode, including the detail that the abductor had a knife. The parents dismissed the whole thing as a nightmare. Then the sister persuaded them to search the house, at which point they found their daughter gone, and the screen slashed with a knife.
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She wasn't a baby !
What has age got to do with it?
People of any age are bought and sold
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What has age got to do with it?
People of any age are bought and sold
Why do you think people want to adopt babies, not children ?
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/10391797/Farsala-Roma-community-Maria-was-well-looked-after.html
On balance seeing no one has claimed her and Interpol have no trace either of a reported missing child matching...I tend to believe she was given to this family to look after/keep as the mother wasnt capable....either from poverty or other reason, this kind of thing happens in many countries
Id imagine the little girl will be interviewed if not already poor thing, and hopefully the real mother will come forward if this happened to dispel the mystery
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these people have apparently had this little girl 2 years ..so not a baby a toddler...
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It is interesting that this little girl had her hair dyed up to what must have been around 1 year ago. It looks to me like her hair was being "grown out" - which might have been because they were about to "sell her on" and a blonde, blue eyed child would probably be worth more. If that is the case, it would appear that the "market" for these trafficked children is not necessarily babies - which suggests something more sinister. Thank God this poor mite appears to have been found just in the nick of time!
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these people have apparently had this little girl 2 years ..so not a baby a toddler...
They are now claiming they had her from 5 days old when a mother who couldn't cope gave her to them. It is now also thought that she may be older than 4.
I must say the video where her 'mother' is pushing her away from her and encouraging her to 'perform' on her own in front of the camera gave me the creeps. Could it have been a'promotional' video? Hopefully I'm completely wrong and am being unduly influenced by the reasons why children are abducted. I certainly hope so.
I understand all the other children (14? of them) are going to be examined. I presume DNA tests will be carried out.
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They are now claiming they had her from 5 days old when a mother who couldn't cope gave her to them. It is now also thought that she may be older than 4.
I must say the video where her 'mother' is pushing her away from her and encouraging her to 'perform' on her own in front of the camera gave me the creeps. Could it have been a'promotional' video? Hopefully I'm completely wrong and am being unduly influenced by the reasons why children are abducted. I certainly hope so.
I understand all the other children (14? of them) are going to be examined. I presume DNA tests will be carried out.
I thought the same benice the woman was making her dance ...training her young to perform for money no doubt ...it was very disturbing to see imo ...and the way she flung that young boy out the way..very strange ..
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It is interesting that this little girl had her hair dyed up to what must have been around 1 year ago. It looks to me like her hair was being "grown out" - which might have been because they were about to "sell her on" and a blonde, blue eyed child would probably be worth more. If that is the case, it would appear that the "market" for these trafficked children is not necessarily babies - which suggests something more sinister. Thank God this poor mite appears to have been found just in the nick of time!
It seems that some of these poor children probably go through several incarnations, at different stages along the child trafficking line.
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The Telegraph is running an interesting story today.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/10392700/Maria-mystery-deepens-as-neighbours-claim-her-father-came-to-visit.html
It is claimed that the real parents left the child with the Roma family while they worked elsewhere in Greece and that the father would regularly visit the child, the last time as recently as 5 days ago.
Perhaps everything is not quite as initially reported.
-
I have been doing a bit of research into child abduction from bed and I must admit that the only examples I can find are American ones - thought there are a good few examples nonetheless:
Elizabeth Smart, 2002. This is a very famous case, in the US as at least, and an interesting and involved one. An abductor entered the home in the middle of the night and took Elizabeth, then aged 14, from a bedroom she shared with her 9 year old sister. The sister witnessed the abductor at length, but did not call out to alert anyone as she was afraid he would kill her and her sister.
Elizabeth was admittedly much older than Madeleine - and therefore, one would think, harder to subdue and exit with undetected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Smart_kidnapping
Rosie Tapia, abducted from her bed in 1995, age 6, and murdered.
http://mylifeofcrime.wordpress.com/2007/03/13/rosie-tapia-murder-81395-salt-lake-city-ut-unsolved-murder/
Both girls were from Salt Lake City, Utah.
And a more recent example, from Los Angeles:
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/29/local/la-me-kidnapped-20130329
And another case, from Georgia, that involved a burglary:
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/09/17/ayvani-hope-perez-missing-georgia-home-invasion
No sign of gypsies, though it's a completely different demographic.
I did find a related piece on the topic of abduction from bed, however:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865558906/Child-abductions-from-homes-exceptionally-rare-expert-says.html
The piece contains an interesting insight:
''And while such brazen abductions are a parent's worst fear, they don't happen often, according to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
"We do see them from time to time, but they are exceptionally rare," said Bob Lowery, executive director of the Virginia-based center's missing child division.
"We have the expectation that when we are at home, we are safe," he said. "This is a different kind of predator that will engage in something that high-risk because of the motivation for what he wants to do with that child."
Sherlock's question from this article is:
Does that statement, if true, suggest that someone willing to enter a child's bedroom at night, with all the risks that that entails, would be unlikely to be a person merely in the employ of higher-up or group who wanted a child to sell or pass on, or use for their own purposes?
For him to have been prepared to make such a brazen move, would he be a man operation alone, driven by his own nefarious drives?
The circumstances around children being snatched from home or residence are bound to differ. Here are a few other cases, in which the abductor had a previous criminal history and apparently acted alone.
- A UK one, but from a bath while the child's mother was in another room.
Willington Quay child abduction case
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The Willington Quay child abduction was a case of the abduction and rape of a 6-year-old girl in Willington Quay, North Tyneside, England, on 27 December 2005, when she was taken while in the bath. A local man, Peter Voisey, a known sex offender, was later convicted of the crime and sentenced to life in prison. The brazen nature of the crime sparked widespread media interest and a Crimewatch appeal. It also sparked the largest ever man-hunt by Northumbria Police. Assertions by the police that the crime had been a case of opportunistic abduction from the home by a stranger were initially met with scepticism, given the seemingly unbelievable nature of the crime.[1] Voisey's conviction also sparked a review of the multi-agency public protection arrangements (MAPPA), which govern the monitoring of past offenders.
The girl was abducted from her ground-floor bath as her mother was next door room. She was driven around the local area for 20 minutes, before being found naked in a snow-covered back alley. Initially, police only had the girl's eyewitness account of a "man in a red car" identified by her as a Vauxhall Astra, with no other witnesses present.[2] The only forensic evidence the police could obtain was a footprint in the bathroom, and a partial DNA trace from the girl's fingernail. Through careful interview with the girl, it was ascertained from the route she was driven, that the offender had a good knowledge of the local area.
Voisey, a.k.a. Smith, was originally questioned because he was a registered sex offender, as part of a wide sweep of local people who might be of interest. Originally a known sneak thief, committing high risk burglaries with a chance of discovery,[2] he had been convicted in 2001 of sexually assaulting a 12-year-old girl in a swimming pool changing room in Cheshire.[3] He was not initially considered a priority lead, as he had been classified low risk due to good behaviour.[2] Voisey initially appeared good natured, and had a good account of his movements. He continued to strenuously deny any involvement when further interviewed.
With no strong evidence, Voisey was convicted from a multitude of lesser clues.[2] This included his local knowledge and his mobile phone records which proved he was not where he claimed to be at the time. The trainer print had been matched to a pair he owned, only five of which had been sold in the North East that year. He had made a cryptic diary entry for the day in question, "Phew it's over, chill now", which he claimed referred to Christmas. He had also owned a red Astra, although this was scrapped before it could be seized as evidence. It was also concluded, although a partial match, that there was a high chance of the DNA found being Voisey's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willington_Quay_child_abduction_case
- Different again: a guy raped and murdered Caroline Dickinson (UK) in a French hostel dorm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/girl-murdered-on-school-trip-to-france-1329474.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Arce_Montes
- Someone "known" to the family snatched a 3-year-old when she and her mum had just come home from a shopping trip and the mother was on the phone. It's unclear whether he was a friend or a slight acquaintance.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/jan/05/ukcrime.childprotection
-
why was maria being treat special to the other kids ..her own room lots of toys etc ..or was that room staged for the camera's ? ..
-
The Telegraph is running an interesting story today.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/10392700/Maria-mystery-deepens-as-neighbours-claim-her-father-came-to-visit.html
It is claimed that the real parents left the child with the Roma family while they worked elsewhere in Greece and that the father would regularly visit the child, the last time as recently as 5 days ago.
Perhaps everything is not quite as initially reported.
Common sense tells me that if it was a simple case of child minding gone wrong then the arrested parents wouldn't have told a pack of lies to begin with.
All very iffy?
-
Common sense tells me that if it was a simple case of child minding gone wring then the arrested parents wouldn't have told a pack of lies to begin with.
All very iffy?
Agreed. It does seem as if they were into benefit fraud judging by all those birth certificates, so that might be the basis of their lies.
-
The Telegraph is running an interesting story today.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/10392700/Maria-mystery-deepens-as-neighbours-claim-her-father-came-to-visit.html
It is claimed that the real parents left the child with the Roma family while they worked elsewhere in Greece and that the father would regularly visit the child, the last time as recently as 5 days ago.
Perhaps everything is not quite as initially reported.
Thanks for that Jassi, but if the real father is frequently around why would he not come forward. A DNA test is all it would have taken to clear this couple. And yet he watched them be arrested and his own' daughter' taken away?
I suppose it could be that he is part of a benefits scam involving his daughter - and has just disappeared to avoid arrest himself.
We shall have to wait and see.
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The Telegraph says he is Bulgarian. Perhaps in Greece illegally and doesn't want to come to the attention of the authorities.
-
The Telegraph is running an interesting story today.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/10392700/Maria-mystery-deepens-as-neighbours-claim-her-father-came-to-visit.html
It is claimed that the real parents left the child with the Roma family while they worked elsewhere in Greece and that the father would regularly visit the child, the last time as recently as 5 days ago.
Perhaps everything is not quite as initially reported.
[/quote
Thanks for that article, jassi
-
The circumstances around children being snatched from home or residence are bound to differ. Here are a few other cases, in which the abductor had a previous criminal history and apparently acted alone.
- A UK one, but from a bath while the child's mother was in another room.
Willington Quay child abduction case
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The Willington Quay child abduction was a case of the abduction and rape of a 6-year-old girl in Willington Quay, North Tyneside, England, on 27 December 2005, when she was taken while in the bath. A local man, Peter Voisey, a known sex offender, was later convicted of the crime and sentenced to life in prison. The brazen nature of the crime sparked widespread media interest and a Crimewatch appeal. It also sparked the largest ever man-hunt by Northumbria Police. Assertions by the police that the crime had been a case of opportunistic abduction from the home by a stranger were initially met with scepticism, given the seemingly unbelievable nature of the crime.[1] Voisey's conviction also sparked a review of the multi-agency public protection arrangements (MAPPA), which govern the monitoring of past offenders.
The girl was abducted from her ground-floor bath as her mother was next door room. She was driven around the local area for 20 minutes, before being found naked in a snow-covered back alley. Initially, police only had the girl's eyewitness account of a "man in a red car" identified by her as a Vauxhall Astra, with no other witnesses present.[2] The only forensic evidence the police could obtain was a footprint in the bathroom, and a partial DNA trace from the girl's fingernail. Through careful interview with the girl, it was ascertained from the route she was driven, that the offender had a good knowledge of the local area.
Voisey, a.k.a. Smith, was originally questioned because he was a registered sex offender, as part of a wide sweep of local people who might be of interest. Originally a known sneak thief, committing high risk burglaries with a chance of discovery,[2] he had been convicted in 2001 of sexually assaulting a 12-year-old girl in a swimming pool changing room in Cheshire.[3] He was not initially considered a priority lead, as he had been classified low risk due to good behaviour.[2] Voisey initially appeared good natured, and had a good account of his movements. He continued to strenuously deny any involvement when further interviewed.
With no strong evidence, Voisey was convicted from a multitude of lesser clues.[2] This included his local knowledge and his mobile phone records which proved he was not where he claimed to be at the time. The trainer print had been matched to a pair he owned, only five of which had been sold in the North East that year. He had made a cryptic diary entry for the day in question, "Phew it's over, chill now", which he claimed referred to Christmas. He had also owned a red Astra, although this was scrapped before it could be seized as evidence. It was also concluded, although a partial match, that there was a high chance of the DNA found being Voisey's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willington_Quay_child_abduction_case
- Different again: a guy raped and murdered Caroline Dickinson (UK) in a French hostel dorm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/girl-murdered-on-school-trip-to-france-1329474.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Arce_Montes
- Someone "known" to the family snatched a 3-year-old when she and her mum had just come home from a shopping trip and the mother was on the phone. It's unclear whether he was a friend or a slight acquaintance.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/jan/05/ukcrime.childprotection
Thanks for theses more local examples, Carana. I have not been living in the UK for a while and missed the one from Tyneside - terrible.
-
But no little child taken from bed..
-
The Greek couple have been charged with abduction:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24605954
-
In 2011 was dismantled the "gang of Bulgarian babies". 17 pregnant Bulgarian women went to Greece (no adoption laws) to sell their babies. Each baby was sold 15/20 .000 euros, a ridiculous amount compare to the ransom offered for Madeleine.
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In 2011 was dismantled the "gang of Bulgarian babies". 17 pregnant Bulgarian women went to Greece (no adoption laws) to sell their babies. Each baby was sold 15/20 .000 euros, a ridiculous amount compare to the ransom offered for Madeleine.
Dreadful, Anne. I hadn't heard of this ring. Sadly there are probably many of them.
-
This ever evolving story is a sad one for the little girl in question
I do not see any connection with Madeleine McCann though
Whatever happened to that little girl, almost certainly had nothing to do with being 'sold to Gypsies'
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This ever evolving story is a sad one for the little girl in question
I do not see any connection with Madeleine McCann though
Whatever happened to that little girl, almost certainly had nothing to do with being 'sold to Gypsies'
How do you know??
When you have the likes of Angelina Jolie going round the world effectively buying children what sort of an example does this set??
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How do you know??
When you have the likes of Angelina Jolie going round the world effectively buying children what sort of an example does this set??
I agree Angelo, it is clearly an example of double standards.
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If Madeleine is alive, she may well have entered the child trafficking network - not necessarily anything to do with paedophilia.
The difficulty is that unless a perpetrator is apprehended and convicted, it won't prove that she was stolen from her bed by strangers.
The argument against trafficking is that the reward offered by that newspaper was so large that anyone who had her would have been tempted to return her.
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Dreadful, Anne. I hadn't heard of this ring. Sadly there are probably many of them.
I'm not sure. This was a big scandal, being a ring. Now the tendency is hiring a woman who will bear your child.
Well off people are prepared to pay because the legal adoption process is long and morose, but poor people want to adopt babies for exactly the same motive.
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If Madeleine is alive, she may well have entered the child trafficking network - not necessarily anything to do with paedophilia.
The difficulty is that unless a perpetrator is apprehended and convicted, it won't prove that she was stolen from her bed by strangers.
The argument against trafficking is that the reward offered by that newspaper was so large that anyone who had her would have been tempted to return her.
Too young for paedophilia ring and too old for babies ring
And from bed !
In a fairy tale she would be the unique child who could save, giving an organ, the sick daughter of a prince...
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Too young for paedophilia ring and too old for babies ring
And from bed !
In a fairy tale she would be the unique child who could save, giving an organ, the sick daughter of a prince...
Not too young or too old to be put to work as a beggar though Anne.
Also I think you will find that babies have been abused by paedaphiles. Being 3yrs old is no protection from these evil monsters.
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If Madeleine is alive, she may well have entered the child trafficking network - not necessarily anything to do with paedophilia.
The difficulty is that unless a perpetrator is apprehended and convicted, it won't prove that she was stolen from her bed by strangers.
The argument against trafficking is that the reward offered by that newspaper was so large that anyone who had her would have been tempted to return her.
...or at the very least someone in the know would have informed. The fact that a £multi million reward went unclaimed does not look good for Madeleine's well being.
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Not too young or too old to be put to work as a beggar though Anne.
Also I think you will find that babies have been abused by paedaphiles. Being 3yrs old is no protection from these evil monsters.
Have you any idea of what a beggar child gets daily, Benice ? More than survival ?
Monsters don't steal from bed, they act, false in this case, I bet my head.
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could this be the same girl ? the mouth looks the same shape..
(http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2013/10/22/266306/default/v1/comp-1-522x293.jpg)
http://news.sky.com/story/1158133/maria-police-investigate-lisa-irwin-lead
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could this be the same girl ? the mouth looks the same shape..
http://news.sky.com/story/1158133/maria-police-investigate-lisa-irwin-lead
NO
Lisa Irwin if alive would now be JUST three, this girl is 4-6
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That poor little girl being pushed around by that lady,i find it quite upsetting.
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If the Maria case has done nothing else it has highlighted the problem of international child trafficking. That surely must be good?
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If the Maria case has done nothing else it has highlighted the problem of international child trafficking. That surely must be good?
According to the ILO, 1.2 million children per year are involved in trafficking.
Not all to do with kidnappings and the like, of course. Horrifying nonetheless to consider all the different types of exploitation- many of which do actually involve 'missing children' of some description.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trafficking_of_children
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"Greek police are trying to figure out the identity of a young blonde girl"
is this little girl not on a missing list ?
NO thats why it gives CREDENCE that she was given away by her poor Bulgarian parents............as the family have testified!
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Poor little mite with such sad eyes, reduced to begging on the street... no doubt there'll be hundreds of offers to take her into their care, if her genuine parents can't be found.
If only a similar headline with Madeleine's and Ben Needham's name would one day appear in the news.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2465942/Police-appeal-help-identifying-blonde-girl-4-living-gypsy-camp-Greece.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2465942/Police-appeal-help-identifying-blonde-girl-4-living-gypsy-camp-Greece.html)
How do you know she was begging in the streets?!
The house she lived in doesn't to look that bad by low class Greek (or British) standards. In fact it seems the main problem for the Greek authorities was that the family was receiving 7 000 Euros in benefits from the Social Security because they were caring for 14 children.
It's common among gypsy families to care for other families kids - they have a matrix of enlarged family, even a cousin or a friend is family. And kids in the gypsy culture are treated as princes and princesses.
The sad air in the photographs is natural, since that child was taken from her environment, from the family she knew; more than sad she was probably frightened.
Gypsies, especially from the eastern countries are in a great percentage blonde with blue eyes, which means that dark aired can also produce blonde aired and vice-versa. I don't understand why allegedly developed countries have authorities that do not know that.
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http://news.sky.com/story/1159714/maria-bulgarian-couple-are-roma-girls-parents
Her parents have been located. They either sold her or gave her away. That's all three children recently in the news who were not abducted then.
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EXACTLY, will the greek parents be released from jail now I hope so.
Mind you I have seen the pictures of where Marias siblings are living and to be honest she would be better off with the Roma family.
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EXACTLY, will the greek parents be released from jail now I hope so.
Mind you I have seen the pictures of where Marias siblings are living and to be honest she would be better off with the Roma family.
I hope they'll be released!
All that these cases have exposed is the deep seated racism that still runs through our society in 2013! I despair at the human race on time!