UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The Disappearance of Portuguese youngster Joana Cipriano (8) from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, Algarve, on 12 September 2004. => Topic started by: Admin on April 07, 2013, 02:12:37 PM

Title: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Admin on April 07, 2013, 02:12:37 PM
Joana Cipriano was an eight-year-old Portuguese girl who disappeared from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, in the Algarve, on 12 September 2004.  After the criminal investigation, she was later assumed to have been murdered, though her body was never found.

Whilst being interrogated by police her mother, Leonor Cipriano, was allegedly brutally beaten by several Portuguese police officers under the command of Gonçalo Amaral, the former lead detective and coordinator in the Madeleine McCann case.

Several police officers including Amaral were later charged with offences. Gonçalo Amaral who was not present at the time of the alleged beating but was accused of covering up for his colleagues was sentenced to a year and a half in prison, suspended, for misrepresentation of evidence in the case of aggressions against Leonor Cipriano.  The defendants who were accused of the crime of torture - Paulo Pereira Cristóvão, Leonel Marques and Paulo Marques Bom - were acquitted.
 
The inspector António Cardoso, accused of the crime of forgery of a document, was sentenced to two years and three months, also a suspended penalty.

Here we look at the Cipriano case and what was involved.

(http://i.imgur.com/RM5LCEa.jpg)

Leonor Cipriano after the alleged beating.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: John on April 07, 2013, 02:17:16 PM
This is quite the norm in places like Spain and Portugual.  I have seen both police and functionarios (Spanish prison officers) partaking in physical violence against detainees.

Amaral was responsible for these police officers and the fact that they thought it was acceptable to beat up this woman on his watch speaks volumes about him.

His collusion in attempting to cover it up and for which he was convicted confirms this.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on April 07, 2013, 02:22:23 PM
Do you know admin that the provenance of the photograph you have just posted is itself in doubt and a photographic expert called at Amaral's trial described the photographic evidence of injury as bad evidence ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 07, 2013, 02:23:32 PM
It is worth remembering that beatings and worse were commonplace in England before the introductionof PACE.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on April 07, 2013, 02:29:54 PM
This is quite the norm in places like Spain and Portugual.  I have seen both police and functionarios (Spanish prison officers) partaking in physical violence against detainees.

Amaral was responsible for these police officers and the fact that they thought it was acceptable to beat up this woman on his watch speaks volumes about him.

His collusion in attempting to cover it up and for which he was convicted confirms this.


The use of violence by police officers/forces is not unique to any country.

It happens all over the world.

It certainly happens in the UK.

We have the relatively recent case of an innocent bystander, Ian Tomlinson, in London, who died as a result of a beating he took by a so called officer, who already had been charged with violent offenses.

As to Cipriano, don't forget this woman is a convicted child murderer.

She has now been found guilty of perjury as well, thereby having her sentence extended.

Likewise it was also claimed, neither proven/disproven that fellow prisoners beat her up.

Hardly unique to one country either.

There is no need for a touch of Xenophobia to appear in this forum as it did in the UK press....

Remember the phrase 'Sardine Munchers' ?



Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: gilet on April 07, 2013, 03:00:33 PM

Goncalo Amaral was convicted on Written Evidence, signed by him.  He can't talk his way out of that one.

Explain further please ?

It was a written statement by Amaral, and presented to The Court.

Saying what ?

Each of the questions you are asking is demonstrating that you really do not know the facts about the Amaral conviction.

He was convicted of the entirely stand-alone crime of "Falsifying Evidence", which I am sure you and all decent people understand is a disgraceful thing for a police officer (of any nationality) to do.  Another officer Antonio Nunes Cardoso was convicted at the same time of document forgery over the same incident relating to Leonor Cipriano.

Goncalo Amaral appealed against the sentence and the appeal was not granted.



Another case I would appreciate some information about if anyone has any (with evidence) is the case where Goncalo Amaral was reported in mid 2009 to be on the point of facing the courts over his alleged direct involvement in the torture of Leandro Cipriano.

"The Public Ministry has accused former Polícia Judiciária inspector Gonçalo Amaral of aggression on Leandro Silva, the partner of Leonor Cipriano, who was condemned over homicide and concealment of the cadaver of her daughter Joana Cipriano, in 2004, in the Algarve.
 
According to documents from the Public Ministry, to which Lusa agency was given access, Gonçalo Amaral stands accused of a crime of torture in co-authorship.
 
The accusation mentions that on the 13th of October 2004, in the PJ building in Portimão, the former inspector grabbed Leandro Silva's neck and punched him twice in the abdomen and slapped him twice in the face, while asking him to indicate where the child (Joana) was."


http://www.publico.pt/sociedade/noticia/mp-acusa-exinspector-da-pj-goncalo-amaral-de-tortura-a-leandro-silva-1389690
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on April 07, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
Maybe she beat herself up?

(http://i.imgur.com/RM5LCEa.jpg)

You should see photographs of her body.  No way did she throw herself down any stairs.

Sorry, can't supply a link.  But I am absolutely certain that someone else can.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on April 07, 2013, 03:05:54 PM
@ Eleanor

If the provenance of the photographs are in doubt so surely is what they portray ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on April 07, 2013, 03:16:56 PM
@ Eleanor

If the provenance of the photographs are in doubt so surely is what they portray ?

I seem to remember that these photographs were ordered by The Prison Governor who was horrified by what had been done to Leonor Cipriano.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: John on April 07, 2013, 04:56:22 PM
Though Leonor Cipriano confessed to killing her daughter, it was only after nearly 48 hours of continuous interrogation, and she retracted her confession the next day, claiming she had been beaten.   She had extensive bruising after the interrogation, which the police claimed came about when she threw herself down the stairs. 

Since then Gonçalo Amaral and four other Portuguese police officers have been charged with offences.   Amaral was not present at the time of her alleged beating but is accused of covering up for his colleagues, which he strenuously denies.   Leonor Cipriano's former lawyer said that Leonor does not know who beat her up because she had a bag over her head. 

(http://i76.servimg.com/u/f76/13/16/37/35/leo_ma10.jpg)
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: John on April 07, 2013, 04:57:46 PM
@ Eleanor

If the provenance of the photographs are in doubt so surely is what they portray ?

I seem to remember that these photographs were ordered by The Prison Governor who was horrified by what had been done to Leonor Cipriano.


Of course he would Eleanor as he wouldn't want his officers to get the blame.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on April 07, 2013, 05:20:27 PM
@ Eleanor

If the provenance of the photographs are in doubt so surely is what they portray ?

I seem to remember that these photographs were ordered by The Prison Governor who was horrified by what had been done to Leonor Cipriano.


Of course he would Eleanor as he wouldn't want his officers to get the blame.

The Governor is a She, actually.  And two Courts have agreed that Leonor Cipriano was beaten while in Police Custody.
Amaral himself, testified to the fact that Leonor threw herself down the stairs, therefor admitting that her injuries were sustained at The Police Station.   Why say that she threw herself down the stairs if she didn't sustain these horrendous injuries until after she was taken back to the prison?

Amaral's statement resulted in him getting a Conviction and Sentence for Lying Under Oath.
How much more Evidence does anyone need?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Luz on April 10, 2013, 08:25:18 PM
Apparently Amaral appealed his conviction in 2011 and lost


http://www.dn.pt/inicio/portugal/interior.aspx?content_id=1882361


All the PJ officers previously accused by the murderess Leonor Cipriano were immediately considered innocent in her Court Sentence session.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 10, 2013, 08:27:17 PM
Apparently Amaral appealed his conviction in 2011 and lost


http://www.dn.pt/inicio/portugal/interior.aspx?content_id=1882361


All the PJ officers previously accused by the murderess Leonor Cipriano were immediately considered innocent in her Court Sentence session.

I do not think so.

Cite please.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Luz on April 10, 2013, 08:39:17 PM
It's an open document in FARO Court of Law, go there and look for yourself - I did.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 10, 2013, 08:43:05 PM
It's an open document in FARO Court of Law, go there and look for yourself - I did.

So you are saying that he is no longer subject to his prison sentence?

I call bullshit
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on April 10, 2013, 09:46:12 PM
The child murderess cipriano wasn't convicted on the strength of a confession alone was she  ?

I seem to remember reading the most horrific details of the little girl's finger nails being  left in the front door  (  as she had clung onto it while being dragged back into the house  )   8(8-))

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 10, 2013, 10:21:47 PM
The child murderess cipriano wasn't convicted on the strength of a confession alone was she  ?

I seem to remember reading the most horrific details of the little girl's finger nails being  left in the front door  (  as she had clung onto it while being dragged back into the house  )   8(8-))

Cite?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on April 10, 2013, 10:25:53 PM
The child murderess cipriano wasn't convicted on the strength of a confession alone was she  ?

I seem to remember reading the most horrific details of the little girl's finger nails being  left in the front door  (  as she had clung onto it while being dragged back into the house  )   8(8-))

Cipriano's confession was given the day before the alleged beating and in the presence of her lawyer.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on April 10, 2013, 10:35:32 PM
The child murderess cipriano wasn't convicted on the strength of a confession alone was she  ?

I seem to remember reading the most horrific details of the little girl's finger nails being  left in the front door  (  as she had clung onto it while being dragged back into the house  )   8(8-))

Cite?

cite ?  pfft



....   read the Supreme Court of Justice  case ruling

This woman is a degenerate  and the eight year old daughter she was convicted of murdering lived her short life in misery

That people are defending this monstrous woman takes my breath away ! 
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 10, 2013, 10:42:59 PM
The child murderess cipriano wasn't convicted on the strength of a confession alone was she  ?

I seem to remember reading the most horrific details of the little girl's finger nails being  left in the front door  (  as she had clung onto it while being dragged back into the house  )   8(8-))

Cite?


cite ?  pfft



....   read the Supreme Court of Justice  case ruling



This woman is a degenerate  and the eight year old daughter she was convicted of murdering lived her short life in misery

That people are defending this monstrous woman takes my breath away !

I am not defending her, merely asking you to back up your claims.

Did the trial prove those were the girl's finger scratches, or was it a police claim. What was the quali t y of the evidence.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on April 10, 2013, 10:48:21 PM
The child murderess cipriano wasn't convicted on the strength of a confession alone was she  ?

I seem to remember reading the most horrific details of the little girl's finger nails being  left in the front door  (  as she had clung onto it while being dragged back into the house  )   8(8-))

Cite?


cite ?  pfft



....   read the Supreme Court of Justice  case ruling



This woman is a degenerate  and the eight year old daughter she was convicted of murdering lived her short life in misery

That people are defending this monstrous woman takes my breath away !

I am not defending her, merely asking you to back up your claims.

Did the trial prove those were the girl's finger scratches, or was it a police claim. What was the quali t y of the evidence.


Christ debunker !

Do you really want to split hairs about just how foul this piece of  **** Cipriano  is  ?

Go somewhere else for it 
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 10, 2013, 10:54:41 PM
The child murderess cipriano wasn't convicted on the strength of a confession alone was she  ?

I seem to remember reading the most horrific details of the little girl's finger nails being  left in the front door  (  as she had clung onto it while being dragged back into the house  )   8(8-))

Cite?



cite ?  pfft




....   read the Supreme Court of Justice  case ruling





This woman is a degenerate  and the eight year old daughter she was convicted of murdering lived her short life in misery

That people are defending this monstrous woman takes my breath away !

I am not defending her, merely asking you to back up your claims.


Did the trial prove those were the girl's finger scratches, or was it a police claim. What was the quali t y of the evidence.




Christ debunker !

Do you really want to split hairs about just how foul this piece of  **** Cipriano  is  ?

Go somewhere else for it



So you admit you have no evidence to back up your doubtful contention.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on April 10, 2013, 11:03:02 PM
The child murderess cipriano wasn't convicted on the strength of a confession alone was she  ?

I seem to remember reading the most horrific details of the little girl's finger nails being  left in the front door  (  as she had clung onto it while being dragged back into the house  )   8(8-))

Cite?



cite ?  pfft




....   read the Supreme Court of Justice  case ruling





This woman is a degenerate  and the eight year old daughter she was convicted of murdering lived her short life in misery

That people are defending this monstrous woman takes my breath away !

I am not defending her, merely asking you to back up your claims.


Did the trial prove those were the girl's finger scratches, or was it a police claim. What was the quali t y of the evidence.




Christ debunker !

Do you really want to split hairs about just how foul this piece of  **** Cipriano  is  ?

Go somewhere else for it



So you admit you have no evidence to back up your doubtful contention.

 Anyone who chooses to get into a debate about their  'doubts'  about the Cipriano case  ...  ( the case of a little girl who was treated appallingly all her life,  until it was ended viciously at the hands of her bestial mother and uncle ) ... must be pretty twisted 

I don't choose to 
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 10, 2013, 11:12:27 PM
What a bullshit excuse for refusing to back up his claims with a cite.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on April 10, 2013, 11:17:28 PM
Icabadcrane

You are making me very angry.  Leonor Cipriano was convicted on TORTURED OUT EVIDENCE

So called evidence TORTURED OUT OF THREE PEOPLE.   Leonor, Joao and Leandro


THAT IS NOT EVIDENCE

Thanks to Bren, Leonor Cipriano after her torture:
(http://regretsandramblings.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Leonor-Inuries1.jpg)
(http://regretsandramblings.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Leonor-Injuries.jpg)

Not only was Leonor tortured but so allegedly were Joao and Leandro.  Unfortunately NO PHOTOGRAPHS were taken of them


This case will go down in history as one of the most cruel and unsafe verdicts ever


Are you some sort of fascist that you think torture like this acceptable, Bod?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on April 10, 2013, 11:18:28 PM
What a bullshit excuse for refusing to back up his claims with a cite.

This is what's bullshit

...  you defending a convicted child murderess who is a degenerate and waste of space as a human being  ...  for no other reason than it's implications on Amaral ...  and consequently the McCanns

Using  the miserable life and death of little Joana Cipriano as part of an agenda  ...  that's what's bullshit !
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 10, 2013, 11:24:28 PM
What a bullshit excuse for refusing to back up his claims with a cite.

This is what's bullshit

...  you defending a convicted child murderess who is a degenerate and waste of space as a human being  ...  for no other reason than it's implications on Amaral ...  and consequently the McCanns

Using  the miserable life and death of little Joana Cipriano as part of an agenda  ...  that's what's bullshit !

You are a LIAR.

I have not defended her at all.

I merely asked you for a cite.

It is no wonder you are so stupid as you cannot even read simple English.

Show me where I defended her rather than questioning your unsupported claims.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on April 10, 2013, 11:31:05 PM
What a bullshit excuse for refusing to back up his claims with a cite.

This is what's bullshit

...  you defending a convicted child murderess who is a degenerate and waste of space as a human being  ...  for no other reason than it's implications on Amaral ...  and consequently the McCanns

Using  the miserable life and death of little Joana Cipriano as part of an agenda  ...  that's what's bullshit !

You are a LIAR.

I have not defended her at all.

I merely asked you for a cite.

It is no wonder you are so stupid as you cannot even read simple English.

Show me where I defended her rather than questioning your unsupported claims.

Calm down debunker  ...  think of your blood pressure

...  and if you are not defending Cipriano  (  and given your avowed dedication to the law and it's pronouncements )   ...  you must accept that Cipriano is guilty of murdering her eight year old daughter

You  do  accept that,  don't you  ? 
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 10, 2013, 11:35:14 PM
What a bullshit excuse for refusing to back up his claims with a cite.

This is what's bullshit

...  you defending a convicted child murderess who is a degenerate and waste of space as a human being  ...  for no other reason than it's implications on Amaral ...  and consequently the McCanns

Using  the miserable life and death of little Joana Cipriano as part of an agenda  ...  that's what's bullshit !

You are a LIAR.

I have not defended her at all.

I merely asked you for a cite.

It is no wonder you are so stupid as you cannot even read simple English.

Show me where I defended her rather than questioning your unsupported claims.

Calm down debunker  ...  think of your blood pressure

...  and if you are not defending Cipriano  (  and given your avowed dedication to the law and it's pronouncements )   ...  you must accept that Cipriano is guilty of murdering her eight year old daughter

You  do  accept that,  don't you  ?

I accept that she has been found guilty of the offence.

I have some concerns that given current Portuguese Police Practice that we may not yet know the full story.

It took us Brits twenty years to admit that the Birmingham Six had had their confessions beaten out of them.

But you are right, her current position is that she is a criminal - as is Amaral.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on April 10, 2013, 11:41:28 PM
What a bullshit excuse for refusing to back up his claims with a cite.

This is what's bullshit

...  you defending a convicted child murderess who is a degenerate and waste of space as a human being  ...  for no other reason than it's implications on Amaral ...  and consequently the McCanns

Using  the miserable life and death of little Joana Cipriano as part of an agenda  ...  that's what's bullshit !

You are a LIAR.

I have not defended her at all.

I merely asked you for a cite.

It is no wonder you are so stupid as you cannot even read simple English.

Show me where I defended her rather than questioning your unsupported claims.

Calm down debunker  ...  think of your blood pressure

...  and if you are not defending Cipriano  (  and given your avowed dedication to the law and it's pronouncements )   ...  you must accept that Cipriano is guilty of murdering her eight year old daughter

You  do  accept that,  don't you  ?

I accept that she has been found guilty of the offence.

I have some concerns that given current Portuguese Police Practice that we may not yet know the full story.

It took us Brits twenty years to admit that the Birmingham Six had had their confessions beaten out of them.

But you are right, her current position is that she is a criminal - as is Amaral.

I don't think there is a place here for  'qualifying'  your condemnation

Cipriano murdered her eight year old daughter,  as the Supreme court decreed

You accept that  verdict as justice being served     ...  yes  ?   
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on April 10, 2013, 11:43:25 PM
Icabodcrane
Quote
Anyone who chooses to get into a debate about their  'doubts'  about the Cipriano case  ...  ( the case of a little girl who was treated appallingly all her life,  until it was ended viciously at the hands of her bestial mother and uncle ) ... must be pretty twisted 

I don't choose to 
and especially,

Quote
Until it ended at the hands of her bestial mother and uncle
... are you the mouthpiece for Amaral and Cristovao, the two proven crooks who invented the sick story that Leonor and Joao killed their daighter and cut her up into pieces to feed to their pigs?

.... then went on to make mega bucks by writing a book about it.  It had all the right ingredients for a best seller, didn't it? 

Invented sex beteen brother and sister ......nice and salacious ...  but just made up ... dont tell anyone, we can make loadsa money

Killed her daughter because she caught them at 'it' .........made up again, but a dramatic and stirring bit of best seller stuff  ... Oh, yes!

Cut her daughters body up and stored the bits in the fridge    .... Aw, just read this!  ... Sensation and make up again. ... No forensics...  the blood was most probably blood from their pigs which they slaughtered in the back room

Fed their daughters pieces to their pigs .......  Jeez, what drama!  (....this will sell millions of books, Am! .... yer it will Cris ... Aw, we are made!!)


And , of course, this means that they will eat their daughter, via the pigs .... WOW, we will have a worldwide best seller


Now what I have said above could be incorrect, but it has as much substance in it as what was said in Court about Leonor and Joao.  In fact it has more, because why did they make up the story with NO EVIDENCE about Leonor and Joao?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 10, 2013, 11:47:37 PM
What a bullshit excuse for refusing to back up his claims with a cite.

This is what's bullshit

...  you defending a convicted child murderess who is a degenerate and waste of space as a human being  ...  for no other reason than it's implications on Amaral ...  and consequently the McCanns

Using  the miserable life and death of little Joana Cipriano as part of an agenda  ...  that's what's bullshit !

You are a LIAR.

I have not defended her at all.

I merely asked you for a cite.

It is no wonder you are so stupid as you cannot even read simple English.

Show me where I defended her rather than questioning your unsupported claims.

Calm down debunker  ...  think of your blood pressure

...  and if you are not defending Cipriano  (  and given your avowed dedication to the law and it's pronouncements )   ...  you must accept that Cipriano is guilty of murdering her eight year old daughter

You  do  accept that,  don't you  ?

I accept that she has been found guilty of the offence.

I have some concerns that given current Portuguese Police Practice that we may not yet know the full story.

It took us Brits twenty years to admit that the Birmingham Six had had their confessions beaten out of them.

But you are right, her current position is that she is a criminal - as is Amaral.

I don't think there is a place here for  'qualifying'  your condemnation

Cipriano murdered her eight year old daughter,  as the Supreme court decreed

You accept that  verdict as justice being served     ...  yes  ?

All judicial decisions are open to appeal over time.

Until proved otherwise the law should take its current course and she should remain in prison.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on April 11, 2013, 12:33:45 AM
Icabodcrane

You should hang your head in shame Talking like that about Leonor, as should the Court that recently found Leonor guilty of identifying her torturers.  What rot; She could not identify, because she had a bag over her head

This is the Court of Faro that, it seems, is reputed to always find in favour of Amaral and Fascism.
THe Faro area is where nearly all the drugs come in from Morocco ... and the PJ office that Amaral and Cristovao operated from ... Amaral used to live there.  Cristavao is currently up on charges that seem to imply that he has records on peeps.  Could that lead to blackmail?

This is the Court that hid the case from the public, behind closed doors.  They hid the case!  Can you believe it?



Is it possible they were getting Amarals ?ACE together, so they altered the facts?   

Just as Amaral and Pat Brown altered the facts about the window? 
What an elaborate process, cutting down all those beautiful trees surrounding the car park, front door and window of 5A ... but only there, please note.  After all photographs had to be taken, didn't they?.  The other trees were left untouched

Then fixing a massive light on the wall where none had been before ... all to prove that there was no bundleman because the place was too well lit and overlooked?   To fit in and cover up for Amarals libel that Madeleine couldn't have been abducted, she must have died in 5A.    What lies and deceit ... or am I wrong? 

What for?  To ensure that the Mccanns are playing on an uneven playing field.  And that is cheating.

Is this phoney "proof" that Amaral did no wrong in the Courts against Leonor the ACE everyone brags about ?  Now they are trying to get his conviction quashed.  Jeez!

Is this why there have been so many delays to this case, Mccann V Amaral?   To give time for this "phoney" case against Leonor, then to get Amarals criminal record deleted?


Hurry up, Carter Ruck, and get your case in before there are any other phoney "facts" manufactured.  Might be too late already


Come back Marihno Pinto (sp?)
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on April 11, 2013, 12:43:26 AM
Icabodcrane

You should hang your head in shame Talking like that about Leonor ...


Do you know anything at all  about this woman and the life she gave her daughter   (  and other children )  before she murdered her ?

Hang  my head in shame   ...  for talking  'like that'  about Leonor  !

She is a monster  ...  a despicable excuse for a human being  ...  a foul and terrible blight on her children's lives

A piece of  ****  who can rot in jail

There  ...  all said with my head held high

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on April 11, 2013, 12:56:09 AM


Icabadcrane

You are making me very angry.  Leonor Cipriano was convicted on TORTURED OUT EVIDENCE

So called 'evidence' TORTURED OUT OF THREE PEOPLE.   Leonor, Joao and Leandro


THAT IS NOT EVIDENCE

Thanks to Bren, Leonor Cipriano after her torture:
(http://regretsandramblings.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Leonor-Inuries1.jpg)

(http://regretsandramblings.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Leonor-Injuries.jpg)

Not only was Leonor tortured but so allegedly were Joao and Leandro.  Unfortunately NO PHOTOGRAPHS were taken of them


This case will go down in history as one of the most cruel and unsafe verdicts ever


Are you some sort of fascist that you think torture like this acceptable, Icaboidcrane ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on April 11, 2013, 01:13:19 AM
Knowing the facts of the tortured out confessions, all three ... and knowing that there was NO FORENSIC EVIDENCE, ... just a story invented by two convicted criminals, based on NO EVIDENCE ... you should shrivel up in shame.

These guys made a fat poacket out of this lurid murder trial and offered NO PROOF.  One JUDGE put on record his disatisfaction with the case

The fat packet was made from Cristavaos book, full of sensational stuff, supposedly about the case,

Had Kate been fitted up in a similar manner, they would have made a fat packet out of that too.  All the ingredients for a must-buy book were there, as in Leonors case ... even to a fridge where Madeleines body was supposed to have been kept (Like Joana) and to the lurid sex life ... they were all swingers weren't they ? 

Now were they boozers too?  I cant remember, but I fancy they were supposed to be.

Woinder what else would have been ascribed to kate and possibly Gerry had kate answered those stupid questions.  Thank God she didn't


Vivid imagination Amaral has.

There is NO humanity in you
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on April 11, 2013, 01:32:55 AM
Knowing the facts of the tortured out confessions, all three ... and knowing that there was NO FORENSIC EVIDENCE, ... just a story invented by two convicted criminals, based on NO EVIDENCE ... you should shrivel up in shame.

These guys made a fat poacket out of this lurid murder trial and offered NO PROOF.  One JUDGE put on record his disatisfaction with the case

The fat packet was made from Cristavaos book, full of sensational stuff, supposedly about the case,

Had Kate been fitted up in a similar manner, they would have made a fat packet out of that too.  All the ingredients for a must-buy book were there, as in Leonors case ... even to a fridge where Madeleines body was supposed to have been kept (Like Joana) and to the lurid sex life ... they were all swingers weren't they ? 

Now were they boozers too?  I cant remember, but I fancy they were supposed to be.

Woinder what else would have been ascribed to kate and possibly Gerry had kate answered those stupid questions.  Thank God she didn't


Vivid imagination Amaral has.

There is NO humanity in you

I'll tell you where my humanity lies 

...  with the little girl with shorn hair ...  with the little girl who the villagers called  'Cinderella'  ...  with the little girl always on errands  ...  with the little girl always looking after other children,  although just  a child herself ... with the little girl who's sad and miserable short  life was savagely ended by the woman who bruises your heart bleeds for

That's where my humanity lies
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on April 11, 2013, 02:14:45 AM
Jeez Bod

You only have to look at photos of Joana to know she was a happy child.

What is it with you guys that you are supporting all the terrible things that happen to the parents of abducted children, especially if they put up a fight for the PJ to search.  If they stand back and allow the PJ not to look, then seems they dont get any flack from the PJ. 

But if they are plucky, they get all this disinformation put about and torture

(http://regretsandramblings.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Leonor-Injuries.jpg)
(http://regretsandramblings.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Leonor-Inuries1.jpg)
(http://)


What IS YOUR AGENDA, Bod, that you support such dirty play and cruelty??
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 11, 2013, 07:02:00 AM
The child murderess cipriano wasn't convicted on the strength of a confession alone was she  ?

I seem to remember reading the most horrific details of the little girl's finger nails being  left in the front door  (  as she had clung onto it while being dragged back into the house  )   8(8-))

Cipriano's confession was given the day before the alleged beating and in the presence of her lawyer.

Cite?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 11, 2013, 07:06:37 AM
What a bullshit excuse for refusing to back up his claims with a cite.

This is what's bullshit

...  you defending a convicted child murderess who is a degenerate and waste of space as a human being  ...  for no other reason than it's implications on Amaral ...  and consequently the McCanns

Using  the miserable life and death of little Joana Cipriano as part of an agenda  ...  that's what's bullshit !

It is quite fair to question evidence and procedure in any case.

It is your attitude that kept the long series of victims of miscarriage of justice in the UK in prison for so long.

For years I was made a pariah by supporting the Birmingham SIx despite the fact that I was strongly anti the IRA.

Similalrly the West Midlands Torture squad hid behind people like you while people spent long terms in prison for crimes they did not commit that were tortured to get the evidence.

Your attitude is statist and fascist. Common in this case.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 11, 2013, 07:09:49 AM
Icabodcrane

You should hang your head in shame Talking like that about Leonor ...


Do you know anything at all  about this woman and the life she gave her daughter   (  and other children )  before she murdered her ?

Hang  my head in shame   ...  for talking  'like that'  about Leonor  !

She is a monster  ...  a despicable excuse for a human being  ...  a foul and terrible blight on her children's lives

A piece of  ****  who can rot in jail

There  ...  all said with my head held high

Exactly the attitude expressed by biased people about the Birmingham Six, Guildford 4, Barry George Stephen Kiszko etc etc etc.

I would rather be skeptical then be stupid.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 11, 2013, 07:12:10 AM
I have not got involved in this case, but as a nurse, having seen those photographs there is no way those injuries were received "falling down stairs".
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 09:45:19 AM
I aim this response at no-one in particular in this thread, but this seems a reasonable place to put it.

Do those of you who claim "unsafe conviction" about Leonor Cipriano (in varying degrees of hysteria) realise how hypocritical it is to be calling into question the Portuguese legal system and then in other threads hold us "[ censored word ]s" up for ridicule as "two legal systems" have failed to charge the McCanns?

Basically what one/some of you are doing in here is saying, "I know better than the Portuguese system. This woman was tortured. This conviction is unsafe".  Your assertions are as much speculation as those of us who doubt the McCann version of events in that where you feel Leonor is wrongly convicted, we feel that the McCanns are wrongly not (yet) charged.  Both circumstances, of course, could change in the future, but as of right now, the Portuguese courts after multiple investigations has found Leonor guilty on more than one occasion and yet you still feel "you know better"...?

If you search on the internet about Leonor Cipriano you basically get hits from two main sources: McCann Pro sites and McCann Anti sites.  The pro sites, without exception as far as I've found, are "pro" Cipriano too.  You can understand why... to "prove" the conviction of the Ciprianos is unsafe/a miscarriage of justice is to prove that Amaral is a corrupt cop as far as they're concerned.  This helps bolster their belief system that if Amaral is a corrupt cop as regards Cipriano, he must be a corrupt cop as far as the McCann case goes.  This then allows by (their) logical extension (I've seen all the arguments) that to believe any of Amaral's words is a foolish endeavour and only us "stupid [ censored word ]s" would do so.

On the other hand, in support of the conviction of the Ciprianos, I could bring in any number of reasoned posts from Joana Morais, Anna Andresse, Duarte Levy, etc. and they would be INSTANTLY dismissed on here by any McCann supporter as worthless simply because the origin is one that tends to be critical of the McCanns.  This is classic "play the man and not the ball" tactics as used by supporters of the McCanns virtually everywhere.  When unable to make headway in an argument, attack the poster/source.  Discredit, discredit, discredit is the mantra.  Discredit the dogs, discredit the dog handlers, discredit the police who doubt the McCanns, discredit those bloggers who don't support the McCanns... it goes on, but you get the idea.

Where is the "truth" to be found in the Cipriano case?  With those (pro boards and blogs) who have a vested interest in making the portuguese legal system to be a farce and Amaral, in particular, to be corrupt or with the actual Portuguese system itself?

I've read countless bits of information on the Cipriano case. None of it seems independent and unbiased to me.  I'd be very willing to read up on "unbiased" reports if anyone has any but until then, it's undeniable that Leonor Cipriano has been proven to be a liar on more than one occasion.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 09:46:05 AM
I have not got involved in this case, but as a nurse, having seen those photographs there is no way those injuries were received "falling down stairs".
Do some research. This is a "myth".  The incident was not falling down some stairs.  Boo ya!
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 09:54:43 AM

CEdwards, a Portuguese court (no less) found that Cipriano WAS tortured.  I don't know better than them - I AGREE with them!

Is this the finding based on the pictures printed in the paper from years before?  Not from physical examination?

Or is it another finding that one would say was somewhat more plausible scientifically?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 10:12:03 AM
In my opinion if force has been proven to have been used on a suspect in custody then that calls into question the whole way in which the investigation was carried out.  It doesn't matter if the suspect is under arrest for a speeding offence or for eating their own child, it is essential that the whole process of gathering info, charging a suspect and the subsequent trial is carried out lawfully and correctly.  Who could possibly disagree with this CEdwards?

I have read several times this morning (on various sites) that Ciprianos injuries were inflicted on her by fellow inmates... this wasn't checked, was it?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 10:25:54 AM
In my opinion if force has been proven to have been used on a suspect in custody then that calls into question the whole way in which the investigation was carried out.  It doesn't matter if the suspect is under arrest for a speeding offence or for eating their own child, it is essential that the whole process of gathering info, charging a suspect and the subsequent trial is carried out lawfully and correctly.  Who could possibly disagree with this CEdwards?

I have read several times this morning (on various sites) that Ciprianos injuries were inflicted on her by fellow inmates... this wasn't checked, was it?

Any evidence to back up these claims?  Are you saying that Anti McCann blogs and forums know better than the Portuguese Legal Process?  You do seem to be behaving in exactly the same way as you have just been chastising the "Pros" for behaving, ie: knowing better than the PT courts.  Interesting isn't it?

No, I'm not. I'm remaining open-minded and willing to find out more.  I'm saying that I'm happy to accept that the courts found torture was committed, but it seems the courts made an "interesting decision" if the one you're referring to was based on the pictures of unqualified origin.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on April 11, 2013, 10:35:59 AM
I'd be interested in reading the forensic report of the original case, if anyone knows where to find it.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on April 11, 2013, 10:48:57 AM
C.Edwards=
Quote
No, I'm not. I'm remaining open-minded and willing to find out more.  I'm saying that I'm happy to accept that the courts found torture was committed, but it seems the courts made an "interesting decision" if the one you're referring to was based on the pictures of unqualified origin.

Why are you altering the facts?   

Independent experts examined the evidence anf found that the bruises were not caused by falling down stairs, but were indicative of torture as described by Leonor.  As I feel sure you are aware, C Edwards, this expert evidence was presented in Court.

And accepted as FAct by the court.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 10:51:18 AM

Why are you altering the facts?   

Independent experts examined the evidence anf found that the bruises werre not caused by falling down stairs, but were indicative of torture as described by Leonor.  As I feel sure you are aware, C Edwards, this expert evidence was presented in Court.

In the absence of proof of this claim of yours Sadie, I'm calling your statement unverified guff. Find some evidence to back up your claims and I'll reconsider.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 11:08:47 AM

Why are you altering the facts?   

Independent experts examined the evidence anf found that the bruises werre not caused by falling down stairs, but were indicative of torture as described by Leonor.  As I feel sure you are aware, C Edwards, this expert evidence was presented in Court.



In the absence of proof of this claim of yours Sadie, I'm calling your statement unverified guff. Find some evidence to back up your claims and I'll reconsider.

You now seem to be denying that evidence supporting Cipriano's claims from independent experts was presented in court during the trial of the officers accused of beating her.  This is quite extraordinary!
I'm denying nothing, I'm asking for information so that I may educate myself. You should try it sometime!

If your "independent expert" is Irene Posalaky, the prison doctor, then a) she's hardly independent and b) she has said herself that she's no expert in medicinal forensics!  She's a flipping GP.  Also, as pointed out earlier, Cipriano did NOT fall down the stairs and that wasn't how it was reported.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 11, 2013, 11:17:03 AM
I have not got involved in this case, but as a nurse, having seen those photographs there is no way those injuries were received "falling down stairs".
Do some research. This is a "myth".  The incident was not falling down some stairs.  Boo ya!

Knee jerk response because you don't like my position.

What I am saying is exactly that- injuries NOT received from falling down stairs.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 11:21:12 AM
I have not got involved in this case, but as a nurse, having seen those photographs there is no way those injuries were received "falling down stairs".
Do some research. This is a "myth".  The incident was not falling down some stairs.  Boo ya!

Knee jerk response because you don't like my position.

What I am saying is exactly that- injuries NOT received from falling down stairs.

My point is that the myth is that "falling down the stairs" was the excuse. That is not what was reported by the officers.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: debunker on April 11, 2013, 11:24:42 AM
The child murderess cipriano wasn't convicted on the strength of a confession alone was she  ?

I seem to remember reading the most horrific details of the little girl's finger nails being  left in the front door  (  as she had clung onto it while being dragged back into the house  )   8(8-))

Cipriano's confession was given the day before the alleged beating and in the presence of her lawyer.


Cite?

@Faithlily

REpeat. Cite?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on April 11, 2013, 12:24:13 PM
Quote from: C.Edwards
My point is that the myth is that "falling down the stairs" was the excuse. That is not what was reported by the officers.


NOTE:  This is written from memory BUT with integrity


The PJ delivered Leonor back to the jail in this beaten up state .  They told the Prison Governor, Dr Ana, that Leonor had tried to commit suicide and had thrown herself down stairs.  In their presence  Leonor did not disagree.  Fear.

They then exerted pressure on Dr Ana, to say that Leonor had been roughed up by the prisoners in the jail and share the blame for the bruises

The moment they had gone, Leonor poured it all out to Dr Ana.  Dr Ana realised the seriousness of the situation and arranged for leonor to see a doctor and to have photograpks taken.

There are reports that Leonor was blinded for a month because of the blood pouring down behind her eyes (cant remember the medical term)

What a brave woman Dr Ana is- standing up to the pressure from the PJ.  What a brave woman Leonor is too.


Incidentally the PJ took Leonor very early in the morning without Dr Ana's knowledge and they interrogated her and tortured her for long hours.  Until the pain became unbearable, Leonor refused to put her name to the confession.  Joao was not so strong.  He gave way much quicker. 

Leandro was also purportedly brutalised by Amaral himself.  Held by two officers whilst Amaral allegedly punched him in the stomach to make him sign a phony witness statement for the courts. 

This phony statement was the only "evidence" presented in Court, since rescinded.  Oh, I forgot, Leonor and Joaos tortured out "evidence" was used against them, but that is phony too.


There was NO EVIDENCE in that Court, just stories ... spectacular lies .. including illicit sex, made up cutting up of her daughter, keeping Joanas body in the fridge to feed to their pigs (with the obvious implications that they were going to eat their daughter/niece)  What heinous people could spread such stories without any foundation?

Oh and Cristavao (and Amaral?) made a mighty sum out of his book about this phony case.  Cristovao is up on 7 criminal charges atm.  Seems he had files on mases of important people.  what for?... to enable him to manipulkate them ... blackmail them ... or what?   Can anyone think of another reason for having files on people?


Had Kate answered those questions which were NOT designed to find Madeleine, but rather to entrap her, then would a lurid best seller would have appeared?  The ground work was already in place with tales of swingers (illicit sex), boozing, implications that Kate was uncaring, fridges etc.  Once Kate had been charged, would the salacious lies have increased?


Recipe for a best seller?


Only wondering  >@@(*&)
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: gavdalf on April 11, 2013, 12:27:47 PM
Im confused, what is the latest with regards to this woman, has she or has she not just had another 7months added to her sentence for lying in court about this, or am I missing something?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 12:30:39 PM
Note from C. Edwards: I have snipped out loads of fluffy nonsense for brevity...





Recipe for a best seller?


Only wondering  >@@(*&)

In among your flowery proselytising you have failed to reveal your sources for this Barbara Cartland-esque writing.  Please feel free to enlighten me as to what you got from where and which bits are your own personal opinion.

I'm sure debunker was about to post exactly the same thing as me as he wouldn't want to see uncited diatribes being propogated. ;-)
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on April 11, 2013, 12:37:35 PM
PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE MY QUOTES.  NOWHERE DO I SAy FLUFFY NONSENSE>

C EDWARDS you should be banned for changing others quotes!


Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 12:40:01 PM
PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE MY QUOTES.  NOWHERE DO I SAy FLUFFY NONSENSE>

C EDWARDS you should be banned for changing others quotes!

Oh for god's sake stop being such a drama queen.  It was obvious that I cut it out for brevity. I've now modified my post to make it clear.

Try actually answering the point instead of being outraged.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on April 11, 2013, 01:00:33 PM
I still haven't worked out if the child ever got home, let alone met a gruesome fate once back there.


Witness AA3, at around 8.30/8.40 p.m., saw CC [Joana Cipriano] walking up the stairs near the market, into the direction of her home, with a bag, a sign that she was returning from shopping (and we know that she did the shopping, from the deposition of witness NN). This witness, who was smoking at the window, stayed at the window for some time and verified that there was no movement on location, nor did she see any cars, or heard any screams. This means that, according to the rules of experience, and given the fact that the route is short, what is normal is that the minor returned home....


http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2012/03/blind-justice-maddie-case-review-is.html


I can't find the forensic report online which might clarify matters.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 01:09:39 PM

I can't find the forensic report online which might clarify matters.

and this ^^^ is the problem with the cipriano case.  There is little available, so all that we can do is trust that the portuguese courts got it right.  I therefore don't understand why Leonor Cipriano gets such support from McCann supporters - well, I do understand why - as it's Amaral bashing - but it's very hypocritical if those same people argue that the Portuguese legal system is right to not charge the McCanns!
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on April 11, 2013, 01:25:52 PM

In among your flowery proselytising you have failed to reveal your sources for this Barbara Cartland-esque writing.  Please feel free to enlighten me as to what you got from where and which bits are your own personal opinion.

I'm sure debunker was about to post exactly the same thing as me as he wouldn't want to see uncited diatribes being propogated. ;-)

I openly admit that I am doing this from memory but I doubt the original documentation is still around ... but it is written with sincerity and integrity.  However I do know that loadsa lies now flood the internet ... same as hideHos youtubes.

As I suspect you well know C. Edwards, it is no longer possible to find certain articles/documents on the internet.  Links have been broken by someone.  Enormous efforts have ben made to flood the internet with disinformation.   ...the internet has been altered.   

There is something big being hidden and loads of resources are being changed to hide the truth

Is it drug smuggling?  Human trafficking? Blackmail?  Sex trafficking?  Things to produce more power for certain people  ... I dunno

I had been alerting to this, well over a year ago, when I was on ......, but nobody seemed to realise just how sinister these alterations were potentially.  The "book" or "facts" are being rewritten to suit an agenda.  Flood the internet with disinformation, hide all the true information and bingo, there is a new "truth".

This case stinks of corruption and "NEW INVENTED TRUTHS"


About 2 years ago, GEarth was altered with all the relevant street names around 5A removed, making it difficult without a datum to explain things.  I even sent into SY a map showing the street names, becos it would have been so difficult for them with out the basics.  Since this the names have reappeared. 



At one time if you entered the address "Ocean Club Praia de Luz Algarve" into the Fly box of GEarth, it would immediately fly you to the correct place. 

Then suddenly everything changed.  Enter the same address and it would fly you several miles east - every time to a specific seaside villa.  This made it impossible for the ordinary person who had no prior knowledge of where 5A was situated exactly, to find it.  Who changed this and why?


I will add to my post that it was from memory.   I haven't the time to search.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 01:37:33 PM
There was a bit of a spat between google and some map data providers a few years ago.  I was working within the asset tracking industry at the time and it caused a few issues.  I think that lots of areas in Europe were affected.  I don't think it was necessarily anything underhand going on.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on April 11, 2013, 01:39:56 PM
Im confused, what is the latest with regards to this woman, has she or has she not just had another 7months added to her sentence for lying in court about this, or am I missing something?

Yes she has - it's bizarre to say the least.  The courts previously accepted that she HAD been tortured, but have now decided that she also lied about specific details about the beatings which to my mind could seemingly be explained by the fact that she had her head covered whilst they were taking place.  I must admit I do find the PT Legal Sytem baffling at times.  Surely it is not right that the only person to serve time in prison for an act of torture is the actual torture victim themselves?

The Portuguese torture System stinks.  Sorry but it does. 

Cant help wondering if pressure is being put upon Judges by peeps who have info about their private life ... and I am NOT accusing ... just wondering
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 01:54:05 PM
Yes she has - it's bizarre to say the least.  The courts previously accepted that she HAD been tortured, but have now decided that she also lied about specific details about the beatings which to my mind could seemingly be explained by the fact that she had her head covered whilst they were taking place.  I must admit I do find the PT Legal Sytem baffling at times.  Surely it is not right that the only person to serve time in prison for an act of torture is the actual torture victim themselves?

From: http://www.regiao-sul.pt/noticia.php?refnoticia=134868 (http://www.regiao-sul.pt/noticia.php?refnoticia=134868)

(google translated)
Quote
The Faro Court today postponed to April 2nd reading of sentence Leonor Cipriano, arrested for the murder of her daughter Joana, in the case which is charged with making false statements. A child's mother, who disappeared in the village of Figueira, in Portimão, September 12, 2004, presented different versions of the alleged assault he suffered at the premises of the Judicial Police in Faro that year.

According to judicial sources, the court held that it was necessary to join this process documentary evidence the previous case, in which Leonor Cipriano accused several agents to have beaten during interrogation. Leonor Cipriano - who, like his brother, meets 16 years in prison for murder and concealment of a corpse - was excused from attending today the Court of Faro to hear the reading of the judgment. contradictory statements were made ​​during the trial of the inspectors who investigated the "Joana case" in 2009, which resulted in the conviction of two of the five defendants in the case.

At the judgment, the collective of judges deemed " and relevant flagrant contradictions it incurred "Leonor Cipriano statements that produced the sessions of the trial, although he had the" opportunity to reveal the truth. " The court gave as proven aggression, although without having ascertained the identity of the attackers . Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Department of the PJ of Portimão, was acquitted of the crime of failure to report abuse and sentenced to a year and a half for the crime of making false allegations, were suspended for the same period.

Inspector Anthony Nunes Cardoso was sentenced to two years and three months for forgery of document, sentence suspended for two years. Former agents PJ Paulo Pereira Cristovao Morgado Leonel Marques and Paulo Marques Bom, who were accused of having tortured Leonor Cipriano in interrogations conducted PJ in Faro, were acquitted.

and from http://www.tvi24.iol.pt/7/nacionais/leonor-cipriano-condenada-a-sete-meses-por-mentir-a-justica-leonor-cipriano-prisao/1435391-4996.html (http://www.tvi24.iol.pt/7/nacionais/leonor-cipriano-condenada-a-sete-meses-por-mentir-a-justica-leonor-cipriano-prisao/1435391-4996.html)

(google translated again)
Quote
On Tuesday the Court of Faro condemned Leonor Cipriano to seven
months in prison for making false statements to Justice, TV1 has learned. The
defendant is already serving a sentence of 16 years in prison for the
murder of her daughter Joana. Reading of the judgment was scheduled for
March 14, but the court postponed the date stating the need for
documentary evidence of this process earlier, in which Leonor Cipriano
accused several agents of beating her during interrogation. The mother of the child [who disappeared in the village of Figueira, Portimão,
September 12, 2004] presented different versions of the alleged assault
she suffered at the premises of the Judicial Police in Faro that same
year. Contradictory statements were made ​​during the trial that
investigated the inspectors in the 'Joana case' in 2009, which resulted in the
conviction of two of the five defendants in the case. The
collective judgment considered "egregious and relevant the contradictions
it incurred »Leonor Cipriano statements that produced the sessions of
the trial, although it had the" opportunity to reveal the truth. " The
court gave as proven aggression, although without having ascertained the
identity of the attackers. Gonçalo Amaral , former coordinator of the
Criminal Investigation Department of the PJ of Portimão, was acquitted
of the crime of failure to report abuse and sentenced to a year and a
half for the crime of making false allegations, were suspended for the
same period. António Nunes Cardoso The inspector was sentenced to two
years and three months for forgery of document, sentence suspended for
two years. Former agents PJ Paulo Pereira Cristovao Morgado Leonel
Marques and Paulo Marques Bom, who were accused of having tortured
Leonor Cipriano in interrogations conducted in PJ Faro, were acquitted.
Leonor Cipriano meets as her brother, João Cipriano, 16 years in prison
for murder and concealment of a corpse.


The crucial part to me seems to be: "According to the court, it was proven that Leonor Cipriano lied about how officers beat him and submitted in court different versions of events that occurred during the interrogations he underwent in 2004, after the crime. "

I don't see how any of the convictions (Amaral's included) can be upheld after a court found she lied about being tortured?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on April 11, 2013, 02:03:18 PM

I can't find the forensic report online which might clarify matters.

and this ^^^ is the problem with the cipriano case.  There is little available, so all that we can do is trust that the portuguese courts got it right.  I therefore don't understand why Leonor Cipriano gets such support from McCann supporters - well, I do understand why - as it's Amaral bashing - but it's very hypocritical if those same people argue that the Portuguese legal system is right to not charge the McCanns!

I'm bewildered about this case.

"These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution."

Snip


"Therefore, we cannot conclude with certainty that the body, or all parts of the minor’s body were placed inside the deep freezer, but that at least they tried to place it in there, results not only from the reconstitution act, but also from the fact that on the 16th of October 2004, human blood samples were collected from the back interior of the freezer’s second drawer (cfr. Page 585), which was again confirmed by the report of the examination that was performed by the LPC [Scientific Police Lab] (pages 1780 and following, with special attention to pages 1786 (item B) and 1792). It is further recalled that witness CC3 explained that the blood traces that were collected from the inside of the drawer were located precisely on the back panel of the freezer’s second drawer. Now if one should consider the possibility that the human blood that was found could have resulted from the handling of the deep freezer by someone who had a cut to his or her hand, the fact that the human blood was found inside the back part of the drawer sets that possibility aside and points towards the conclusion that a human body part was placed there, or an attempt was made.



Without further information, I'm not sure what could not be compatible with a nicked finger... whoever that may have been.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on April 11, 2013, 02:08:09 PM
Now if one should consider the possibility that the human blood that was found could have resulted from the handling of the deep freezer by someone who had a cut to his or her hand, the fact that the human blood was found inside the back part of the drawer sets that possibility aside and points towards the conclusion that a human body part was placed there, or an attempt was made.


I haven't found any information to indicate why this would indicate that a chopped-up corpse was in that fridge / freezer. Perhaps there is.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on April 11, 2013, 02:10:49 PM
What type of freezer did they have? A stand-alone deep freeze or a standard fridge/freezer combo?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 02:13:24 PM
Sorry Carana, I have no idea.

Although the forensics don't look to have been brilliant, it's obvious that what other evidence they had was enough to convict.  Subsequently Leonor Cipriano has been found guilty of lying about being tortured even so it looks less and less like an unsafe conviction to me.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: John on April 11, 2013, 02:13:46 PM
It's the same in all these Latin countries Sadie, its what they have always known and in fact expect from those in power.  The European Convention on Human Rights is a standing joke in these countries.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on April 11, 2013, 02:26:15 PM
Odd how it isn't mentioned, that Joao Grade, was Leonor and Joao Cipriano's lawyer, for 4 years.
Until he was apparently caught taking drugs into the prison, for another inmate.

Joao Grade Lawyer To Leonor Cipriano & The Goncalo Amaral Connection
Dr Joao Grade dos Santos
Former Lawyer To Leonor Cipriano
Leonor Cipriano was convicted with her brother Joao Cipriano, of murdering Leonor's daughter and then disposing her body in the most macabre, spine chilling of ways. Leonor's lawyer was Dr Joao Grade dos Santos. Dr Grade received no financial recompense for representing Leonor and her brother, although legal aid was granted in their case. In Portugal if you are granted legal aid and need a lawyer to be paid out of that grant, the court actually appoints a lawyer, the defendant cannot choose a lawyer of their choice. Dr Marcos Aragao Correia, Leonor's present lawyer, also receives no financial recompense, he is expected to represent Leonor Cipriano for nothing. Leonor cannot pay him, she is very poor and has no money.

 

Leonor Cipriano Arriving At Court For Last Year's Trial
So weak, she Had to Be Helped Along By Two Prison Guards
~~~~~~~~~~~~

With so many miscarriages of justices occurring in Portugal, with the same story of people not being adequately represented, this is probably the reason why!

Dr Grade seemed to be doing a reasonable job of representing Leonor and then all of a sudden that changed, here we will attempt to understand the reasons why that suddenly changed.

In 2005, Leonor Cipriano, along with her brother, Joao, were found guilty of murdering eight-year old Joana Cipriano after she was reported missing in September 2004.

They were found guilty by a court of three judges and four jurors, they received prison sentences of 20 and 19 years respectively, since their sentences have been reduced on appeal to 16 years each.

In April 2008 Joao Grade was arrested as he prepared to visit two prisoners in Odemira Prison, after drugs were detected in two bags he maintains he was carrying in for the two inmates. Amphetamines equivalent to approximately 45 doses street value and also a quantity of ecstasy tablets.
On March 26th 2008, one month before Joao Grade was found to be carrying drugs in his possession, Goncalo Amaral along with four of his lower ranking colleagues PJ inspectors Paulo Pereira Cristovao, Leonel Marques, Paulo Marques Bom and Antonio Cardoso, were committed to jury trial by Joaquim da Cruz, an investigating judge. In May 2009, Goncalo Amaral was found guilty of falso testimunho (perjury) and given an 18 month suspended prison sentence.

Strangely in a country where they beat you up for traffic violations, Dr Grade made a plea to the court that he did not know the drugs were in his possession and the court accepted his plea, what a pity they did not extend the same kind of understanding towards Leonor Cipriano, where on no evidence at all, and nowhere near proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, that woman was convicted of the most heinous of crimes.

Where is the justice?

Where was her "lawyer" Dr Joao Grade?

Why did he not bring to the court's attention the many inconsistencies in the "alleged confession" obtained under torture, aided and abetted by disgraced former detective Goncalo Amaral?

Dr Grade, also said he was confident that he would be able to clear his clients once their appeal was heard, as he believed their guilt had not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Since the guilty verdict was announced, a number of Portugal's leading lawyers and judges have spoken out against the decision. One judge at Leonor's trial insisted on going on record as stating that he thinks Leonor Cipriano is innocent.

After a complaint to the DA was made by the Director of the Prison of Odemira, Dr Ana Maria Calado. Then soon after, Dr Marinho Pinto, who was at the time a journalist and now President of the Bar, made a front page report about Leonor’s torture in the newspaper "Expresso", which forced the investigation to go deeper.

With all of this to go on and the indictment of Amaral
Dr Grade still could not piece together a robust defense for his client, Leonor Cipriano, it was almost as if he was trying to defend Leonor with his hands tied behind his back.

It was alleged by Dr Ana maria Calado, that having been questioned for 48 hours, Leonor confessed only as the result of a serious and vicious assault.


 


Leonor Cipriano's Injuries After She Had been viciously and Brutally Beaten During her Torture in Police Custody.
The Torture Has Since Been Proved In court


This is the woman that Dr Joao grade was supposed to be representing in court.

Is this the same Dr Joao Grade dos Santos, that now holds Goncalo Amaral, an officer he helped to convict in high esteem? So high, that he has now become the disgraced former PJ coordinators advocate and plans to train the convicted criminal to be a lawyer?
Is this the same Dr Joao Grade dos Santos, that has now pledged to testify in favour of Goncalo Amaral at his forthcoming trial, where he will stand trial once again accused of torture, this time the torture of Leandro Silva, Leonor Cipriano's partner?
Is this the same Dr Joao Grade dos Santos, who attended the 50th birthday party of Goncalo Amaral and who dined with another member of the five former PJ inspectors he helped send for trial, Pierre Paulo Cristovoa? The simple answer to those questions is yes!

How can Dr Grade in all honesty testify in favour of Amaral at his trial where he stands accused of torturing another member of the family, he represented and helped to convict by getting them indicted?

How did Dr Joao Grade dos Santos manage to get off of the charge of drug smuggling in a country where they arrest you, take you into a room for questioning and then beat you to within an inch of your life, for even minor misdemeanors?

Strange business this lawyer thing, very strange!

Could it be that Dr Joao Grade dos Santos is in fear of his life and that of the safety of his family?

Until 1974 Portugal was a dictatorship, this was the climate in which the PJ was created and their methods were notoriously brutal.
In a country where brutal treatment of suspects was routine. The mother of one expatriate British woman had been arrested in the late 1980's on suspicion of a petty crime and she was savagely beaten while in custody, she was found to have extensive and deep bruising all over her body. Of course, the police said they hadn't done anything, and they were never called to account.

Leonor Cipriano dispensed the services of Dr Grade and employed the services of Dr Marcos Aragao Correia. Dr Correia has subsequently ran a successful trial in getting Goncalo Amaral convicted and having Goncalo Amaral charged with the torture of Leonor's partner, Leandro Silva.

Against this backdrop in Portugal, perhaps we should not be too surprised that the Lawyer that just successfully had five ex Portuguese detectives accused and charged with various serious crimes, ranging with torture and perjury, in the March of 2008, was himself "apparently" caught in possession of drugs as he "apparently" tried to smuggle them into a prison, just one month later in April 2008. Coincidence? Even the birthday party of Goncalo Amaral could not pass without incident!Leonor's present lawyer and the former "friend" of Amaral and her husband, were aggressed in the street as they stood watching Amaral's firework party! (This is the party that Dr Joao Grade dos Santos also attended as a guest of Amaral's)
Dr Aragao Correia was pulled through his open car window and threatened, while the husband of Amaral's former "friend" was punched repeatedly in the face by people that came from the party, allegedly sent by Goncalo Amaral. The police were called and the incident reported and the three who were attacked, were given incident report numbers, also the Portimao attorney general was informed.

Yet Dr Grade is to testify in favour of Goncalo Amaral?

Strange? You bet!


Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 02:36:18 PM



The crucial part to me seems to be: "According to the court, it was proven that Leonor Cipriano lied about how officers beat him and submitted in court different versions of events that occurred during the interrogations he underwent in 2004, after the crime. "

I don't see how any of the convictions (Amaral's included) can be upheld after a court found she lied about being tortured?

What about this bit from the above article:

Quote
The court gave as proven aggression, although without having ascertained the
identity of the attackers.


Also, weren't the original verdicts against Amaral et al upheld on appeal?  Is he going to appeal again?  Does anything ever get settled once and for all in Portugal or is it an on-going thing?  Will Cipriano appeal against this latest court decision?  As I say, it seems bizarre to me.

I would like to see a native portuguese speaker's translation of the original on that before commenting. I suspect there may be an amount of meaning missing in the google translated version.  Don't know really.  As you say, it does seem bizarre but, for me, for different reasons to you!  (that they can find evidence of torture based on photos which could, arguably, have been tampered with or she could have been beaten up by inmates and not officers!
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: C.Edwards on April 11, 2013, 02:42:12 PM
"happy" is not a good word to use in hindsight. Personally I find it unusual that they found she'd been tortured in the way they did at the time but I accept that in the initial trial they did, indeed, find that she had been tortured.

That they've now found her guilty about lying about being tortured is just bizarre unless they are still upholding that she was tortured but now only on the grounds of what - the photographic evidence and interpretation by the self-confessed forensically limited prison doctor?

I don't understand it at all.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on April 11, 2013, 03:18:43 PM
"happy" is not a good word to use in hindsight. Personally I find it unusual that they found she'd been tortured in the way they did at the time but I accept that in the initial trial they did, indeed, find that she had been tortured.

That they've now found her guilty about lying about being tortured is just bizarre unless they are still upholding that she was tortured but now only on the grounds of what - the photographic evidence and interpretation by the self-confessed forensically limited prison doctor?

I don't understand it at all.

It is bizarre,  they've now found her guilty about lying about being tortured. Only took them 8 years, to do so.

Why pick the day for her interrogation, when the prison director was on weeks holiday, she would never have allowed her to be picked up at 6 a.m.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on April 11, 2013, 03:25:10 PM
I'm more concerned about the child. What happened to her?

The limited information on forensics doesn't seem to bear out a gruesome demise and it's an assumption that she even returned home that night.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on April 11, 2013, 04:08:43 PM
Odd how it isn't mentioned, that Joao Grade, was Leonor and Joao Cipriano's lawyer, for 4 years.
Until he was apparently caught taking drugs into the prison, for another inmate.

Joao Grade Lawyer To Leonor Cipriano & The Goncalo Amaral Connection
Dr Joao Grade dos Santos
Former Lawyer To Leonor Cipriano
Leonor Cipriano was convicted with her brother Joao Cipriano, of murdering Leonor's daughter and then disposing her body in the most macabre, spine chilling of ways. Leonor's lawyer was Dr Joao Grade dos Santos. Dr Grade received no financial recompense for representing Leonor and her brother, although legal aid was granted in their case. In Portugal if you are granted legal aid and need a lawyer to be paid out of that grant, the court actually appoints a lawyer, the defendant cannot choose a lawyer of their choice. Dr Marcos Aragao Correia, Leonor's present lawyer, also receives no financial recompense, he is expected to represent Leonor Cipriano for nothing. Leonor cannot pay him, she is very poor and has no money.

 

Leonor Cipriano Arriving At Court For Last Year's Trial
So weak, she Had to Be Helped Along By Two Prison Guards
~~~~~~~~~~~~

With so many miscarriages of justices occurring in Portugal, with the same story of people not being adequately represented, this is probably the reason why!

Dr Grade seemed to be doing a reasonable job of representing Leonor and then all of a sudden that changed, here we will attempt to understand the reasons why that suddenly changed.

In 2005, Leonor Cipriano, along with her brother, Joao, were found guilty of murdering eight-year old Joana Cipriano after she was reported missing in September 2004.

They were found guilty by a court of three judges and four jurors, they received prison sentences of 20 and 19 years respectively, since their sentences have been reduced on appeal to 16 years each.

In April 2008 Joao Grade was arrested as he prepared to visit two prisoners in Odemira Prison, after drugs were detected in two bags he maintains he was carrying in for the two inmates. Amphetamines equivalent to approximately 45 doses street value and also a quantity of ecstasy tablets.
On March 26th 2008, one month before Joao Grade was found to be carrying drugs in his possession, Goncalo Amaral along with four of his lower ranking colleagues PJ inspectors Paulo Pereira Cristovao, Leonel Marques, Paulo Marques Bom and Antonio Cardoso, were committed to jury trial by Joaquim da Cruz, an investigating judge. In May 2009, Goncalo Amaral was found guilty of falso testimunho (perjury) and given an 18 month suspended prison sentence.

Strangely in a country where they beat you up for traffic violations, Dr Grade made a plea to the court that he did not know the drugs were in his possession and the court accepted his plea, what a pity they did not extend the same kind of understanding towards Leonor Cipriano, where on no evidence at all, and nowhere near proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, that woman was convicted of the most heinous of crimes.

Where is the justice?

Where was her "lawyer" Dr Joao Grade?

Why did he not bring to the court's attention the many inconsistencies in the "alleged confession" obtained under torture, aided and abetted by disgraced former detective Goncalo Amaral?

Dr Grade, also said he was confident that he would be able to clear his clients once their appeal was heard, as he believed their guilt had not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Since the guilty verdict was announced, a number of Portugal's leading lawyers and judges have spoken out against the decision. One judge at Leonor's trial insisted on going on record as stating that he thinks Leonor Cipriano is innocent.

After a complaint to the DA was made by the Director of the Prison of Odemira, Dr Ana Maria Calado. Then soon after, Dr Marinho Pinto, who was at the time a journalist and now President of the Bar, made a front page report about Leonor’s torture in the newspaper "Expresso", which forced the investigation to go deeper.

With all of this to go on and the indictment of Amaral
Dr Grade still could not piece together a robust defense for his client, Leonor Cipriano, it was almost as if he was trying to defend Leonor with his hands tied behind his back.

It was alleged by Dr Ana maria Calado, that having been questioned for 48 hours, Leonor confessed only as the result of a serious and vicious assault.


 


Leonor Cipriano's Injuries After She Had been viciously and Brutally Beaten During her Torture in Police Custody.
The Torture Has Since Been Proved In court


This is the woman that Dr Joao grade was supposed to be representing in court.

Is this the same Dr Joao Grade dos Santos, that now holds Goncalo Amaral, an officer he helped to convict in high esteem? So high, that he has now become the disgraced former PJ coordinators advocate and plans to train the convicted criminal to be a lawyer?
Is this the same Dr Joao Grade dos Santos, that has now pledged to testify in favour of Goncalo Amaral at his forthcoming trial, where he will stand trial once again accused of torture, this time the torture of Leandro Silva, Leonor Cipriano's partner?
Is this the same Dr Joao Grade dos Santos, who attended the 50th birthday party of Goncalo Amaral and who dined with another member of the five former PJ inspectors he helped send for trial, Pierre Paulo Cristovoa? The simple answer to those questions is yes!

How can Dr Grade in all honesty testify in favour of Amaral at his trial where he stands accused of torturing another member of the family, he represented and helped to convict by getting them indicted?

How did Dr Joao Grade dos Santos manage to get off of the charge of drug smuggling in a country where they arrest you, take you into a room for questioning and then beat you to within an inch of your life, for even minor misdemeanors?

Strange business this lawyer thing, very strange!

Could it be that Dr Joao Grade dos Santos is in fear of his life and that of the safety of his family?

Until 1974 Portugal was a dictatorship, this was the climate in which the PJ was created and their methods were notoriously brutal.
In a country where brutal treatment of suspects was routine. The mother of one expatriate British woman had been arrested in the late 1980's on suspicion of a petty crime and she was savagely beaten while in custody, she was found to have extensive and deep bruising all over her body. Of course, the police said they hadn't done anything, and they were never called to account.

Leonor Cipriano dispensed the services of Dr Grade and employed the services of Dr Marcos Aragao Correia. Dr Correia has subsequently ran a successful trial in getting Goncalo Amaral convicted and having Goncalo Amaral charged with the torture of Leonor's partner, Leandro Silva.

Against this backdrop in Portugal, perhaps we should not be too surprised that the Lawyer that just successfully had five ex Portuguese detectives accused and charged with various serious crimes, ranging with torture and perjury, in the March of 2008, was himself "apparently" caught in possession of drugs as he "apparently" tried to smuggle them into a prison, just one month later in April 2008. Coincidence? Even the birthday party of Goncalo Amaral could not pass without incident!Leonor's present lawyer and the former "friend" of Amaral and her husband, were aggressed in the street as they stood watching Amaral's firework party! (This is the party that Dr Joao Grade dos Santos also attended as a guest of Amaral's)
Dr Aragao Correia was pulled through his open car window and threatened, while the husband of Amaral's former "friend" was punched repeatedly in the face by people that came from the party, allegedly sent by Goncalo Amaral. The police were called and the incident reported and the three who were attacked, were given incident report numbers, also the Portimao attorney general was informed.

Yet Dr Grade is to testify in favour of Goncalo Amaral?

Strange? You bet!

BUMP

Powerful post DCI
  8@??)(


Why is the font in the quote so tiny?  Can it be made bigger please Admin?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on April 11, 2013, 06:07:39 PM

How many lawyers have been representing her, on and off, over this whole saga?

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Rachel Granada on April 11, 2013, 06:24:39 PM
Icabodcrane

You should hang your head in shame Talking like that about Leonor ...


Do you know anything at all  about this woman and the life she gave her daughter   (  and other children )  before she murdered her ?

Hang  my head in shame   ...  for talking  'like that'  about Leonor  !

She is a monster  ...  a despicable excuse for a human being  ...  a foul and terrible blight on her children's lives

A piece of  ****  who can rot in jail

There  ...  all said with my head held high

Hi icabod.  Could I ask where you got the information from about the life she gave Joana and the other children?  Could you expand on this?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on April 11, 2013, 08:30:13 PM
Sorry Carana, I have no idea.

Although the forensics don't look to have been brilliant, it's obvious that what other evidence they had was enough to convict.  Subsequently Leonor Cipriano has been found guilty of lying about being tortured even so it looks less and less like an unsafe conviction to me.

There must be more about the forensics.

So far, it seems as if what could be someone's nicked finger was portrayed as a chainsaw massacre.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Rachel Granada on April 11, 2013, 08:32:58 PM
Icabodcrane

You should hang your head in shame Talking like that about Leonor ...


Do you know anything at all  about this woman and the life she gave her daughter   (  and other children )  before she murdered her ?

Hang  my head in shame   ...  for talking  'like that'  about Leonor  !

She is a monster  ...  a despicable excuse for a human being  ...  a foul and terrible blight on her children's lives

A piece of  ****  who can rot in jail

There  ...  all said with my head held high

Hi icabod.  Could I ask where you got the information from about the life she gave Joana and the other children?  Could you expand on this?

Any news on my question above, icabod?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Rachel Granada on April 11, 2013, 10:25:53 PM
No reply to my question above asking for supporting information, then, icabod?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 08, 2013, 04:24:02 PM
And it doesn't concern you that a Portuguese court has already deemed Joanna to have been murdered by her mother and brother ?

There's no evidence of that. Unless you can enlighten us, with some.
Confession doesn't count, because she was tortured, which was proved in court!
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 08, 2013, 04:25:07 PM
There's no evidence of that. Unless you can enlighten us, with some.
Confession doesn't count, because she was tortured, which was proved in court!

There is the conviction.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 04:30:19 PM
There's no evidence of that. Unless you can enlighten us, with some.
Confession doesn't count, because she was tortured, which was proved in court!
If you're convinced the Portuguese did no justice to Leonor C., as the EU citizen I suppose you are, your duty is to not defame Portugal on public forums, but make a complaint in Strasbourg against the Portuguese State. Were you doing it, we would follow you and eventually help.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 08, 2013, 04:38:35 PM
If you're convinced the Portuguese did no justice to Leonor C., as the EU citizen I suppose you are, your duty is to not defame Portugal on public forums, but make a complaint in Strasbourg against the Portuguese State. Were you doing it, we would follow you and eventually help.

I don't need to Anne, its already been done!
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: John on June 08, 2013, 04:40:04 PM
And it doesn't concern you that a Portuguese court has already deemed Joanna to have been murdered by her mother and brother ?

Not when the detectives involved have been prosecuted for torturing her mother...NO
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: John on June 08, 2013, 04:42:16 PM
If you're convinced the Portuguese did no justice to Leonor C., as the EU citizen I suppose you are, your duty is to not defame Portugal on public forums, but make a complaint in Strasbourg against the Portuguese State. Were you doing it, we would follow you and eventually help.

Do you think it would make any difference Anne given the fascist control over police still being exercised in places like Portugal and Spain?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 08, 2013, 04:44:29 PM
Not when the detectives involved have been prosecuted for torturing her mother...NO

There are concerns, of course, such as that a woman judicially determined to have been tortured while in police custody, not merely remains in custody, but has actually had her sentence lengthened.

How on earth does that work?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 04:45:47 PM
Do you think it would make any difference Anne given the fascist control over police still being exercised in places like Portugal and Spain?
Yes I believe letters can be written, well written and well documented and, as letters have turned a rare object (at least well written and well documented), they are read.
John, Portugal isn't Spain. Portugal suffered so much under Spain domination, that the myth of Dom Sebastião was born.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mr Gray on June 08, 2013, 04:53:17 PM
In Joana case, there's a double confession.
Wasn't that preceded by a double beating?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 08, 2013, 04:55:43 PM
Yes I believe letters can be written, well written and well documented and, as letters have turned a rare object (at least well written and well documented), they are read.
John, Portugal isn't Spain. Portugal suffered so much under Spain domination, that the myth of Dom Sebastião was born.

Annual Report 2013

The state of the world's human rights

Portugal

Torture and other ill-treatment

A criminal investigation into the use of a Taser against an inmate in Paços de Ferreira prison in 2010 did not progress despite the findings of an inquiry by the Audit and Inspection services of the General Directorate for prisons that two members of the Prison Security Intervention Group had used the weapon disproportionately. The outcome of disciplinary proceedings against the two prison officers remained pending at the end of the year.

The trial of three police officers accused of torturing Virgolino Borges in March 2000 while in police custody, which started in November 2011, made little progress.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/portugal/report-2013
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 08, 2013, 05:09:37 PM
Here's one of them.

It was proved these photo's were NOT fake

(http://i47.servimg.com/u/f47/12/37/02/92/tortur10.jpg)

Jesus Christ.  Those photos make me feel ill every time I see them.  And people wonder why Leonor Cipriano can't remember exactly what happened.  It's a miracle that she survived at all.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2013, 05:09:55 PM
Seems Tavares de Almeida and another cop were convicted earlier this year and got a 2.5 year suspended sentence and a monthly fine.


Dois anos e meio de prisão
Pena suspensa para dupla da PJ condenada por tortura

Dois inspetores-chefes da PJ foram condenados, esta sexta-feira, a dois anos e seis meses de prisão, com pena suspensa, por tortura contra o funcionário da CP Virgolino Borges, disse à Lusa o advogado da vítima.

    25 de Janeiro, 18h09
   

A notícia da condenação dos dois inspetores da Polícia Judiciária foi avançada pela SIC Notícias.

O coletivo de juízes da 3ªa vara criminal de Lisboa condenou pelo de tortura os inspetores-chefe José Diamantino Santos e Vitor Tavares de Almeida e ao pagamento de uma multa de 80 euros/mês pelo mesmo período, indicou à Lusa o advogado Jerónimo Martins.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/pena-suspensa-para-dupla-da-pj-condenada-por-tortura
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 08, 2013, 05:10:09 PM
Here's one of them.

It was proved these photo's were NOT fake

(http://i47.servimg.com/u/f47/12/37/02/92/tortur10.jpg)

Not it wasn't. The provenance of these photographs was very much questioned by a photographic expert at Amaral's trial.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 08, 2013, 05:22:05 PM
Seems Tavares de Almeida and another cop were convicted earlier this year and got a 2.5 year suspended sentence and a monthly fine.


Dois anos e meio de prisão
Pena suspensa para dupla da PJ condenada por tortura

Dois inspetores-chefes da PJ foram condenados, esta sexta-feira, a dois anos e seis meses de prisão, com pena suspensa, por tortura contra o funcionário da CP Virgolino Borges, disse à Lusa o advogado da vítima.

    25 de Janeiro, 18h09
   

A notícia da condenação dos dois inspetores da Polícia Judiciária foi avançada pela SIC Notícias.

O coletivo de juízes da 3ªa vara criminal de Lisboa condenou pelo de tortura os inspetores-chefe José Diamantino Santos e Vitor Tavares de Almeida e ao pagamento de uma multa de 80 euros/mês pelo mesmo período, indicou à Lusa o advogado Jerónimo Martins.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/pena-suspensa-para-dupla-da-pj-condenada-por-tortura

That is the case I posted above, Carana. Amnesty International.

Two and a half years in prison

Suspended sentence for duo PJ convicted of torture
Two chief inspectors of the PJ were sentenced on Friday to two years and six months imprisonment with suspended sentence for torture against the official CP Virgolino Borges, told Lusa the victim's lawyer.

January 25, 18h09

The news of the sentencing of two inspectors of the Judicial Police was advanced by SIC Notícias.

The collective of judges from the 3rd to the criminal court of Lisbon condemned the torture inspectors Chief Joseph Diamond Santos and Vitor Tavares de Almeida and the payment of a fine of 80 euros / month for the same period, told the Lusa attorney Jerónimo Martins.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2013, 05:32:57 PM
@ DCI I know it's the same case, but the Amnesty extract was no doubt published prior to the conviction - as it wasn't mentioned.

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 08, 2013, 05:39:20 PM
@ DCI I know it's the same case, but the Amnesty extract was no doubt published prior to the conviction - as it wasn't mentioned.

No Idea Carana, but its this years report! Depends when Amnesty, does the reports. If after January, then yes.

Annual Report 2013

Portugal

The trial of three police officers accused of torturing Virgolino Borges in March 2000 while in police custody, which started in November 2011, made little progress.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 08, 2013, 05:45:23 PM
No Idea Carana, but its this years report! Depends when Amnesty, does the reports. If after January, then yes.

Annual Report 2013

Portugal

The trial of three police officers accused of torturing Virgolino Borges in March 2000 while in police custody, which started in November 2011, made little progress.

I imagine that Amnesty prepares its upcoming report towards the end of the previous year.


A different article:


Dois inspetores da PJ condenados por tortura

17:44 Sexta feira, 25 de janeiro de 2013

Ler mais: http://expresso.sapo.pt/dois-inspetores-da-pj-condenados-por-tortura=f782292#ixzz2VdyvOxxp
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 08, 2013, 07:40:33 PM
Well, yes it did stray off topic, as a few of us mentioned Joana and there seemed to be an objection.

There is a Cipriano thread here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1229.0

But the point here is that Joana might have been abducted. There is no proof that she ever got home and there is no forensic evidence that anything dreadful happened to her in her own home or anywhere else.

So her relatives were convicted on nothing at all, all their appeals quashed, and her sentence increased for perjury as well, ok  then if yu say so

Eta IIRC confessions are not allowed in court evidence so what was the point in torturing her? isnt it true she confessed in the presence of her first lawyer? Did that lawyer sit there and watch? Wasnt the confession before the day of the alledged beating? is there any evidence her inmates didnt beat her up? We all know what happens to child killers in prison. no officer was found guilty of torturing her

Wasnt the receipt from the shop Joana went to found in the house? Were not her fingerprints fround on the bottom of a door? Suggesting trying to escape when beingthrown around and beaten?Wasnt blood found? Have you actually read  the court judgements and what they say?

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html

See notes and link to supreme court ruling

And by some reckoning all children whose bodies have not been found even if someone has been convicted of their murder should feature on a missing campaign?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 09, 2013, 01:20:58 AM
Oh, and of course she was cut up and the pieces kept in the fridge weren't they?
.... and then feed to the pigs, wasn't she?  (gets rid of all the evidence)
Then her Mother was having it off with her brother (Joanas uncle)
And, of course, the physical torture


So like Amarals theory about The Mccanns keeping Madeleines body in the fridge
... and then the burning of the body at the pet crematorium?  (gets rid of all the evidence)
THen the Mccanns and the tapas peeps having it oiff with each other; swingers they were ya know.  Official!
And, of course, the mental torture



Amaral is very good at lurid and salacious stories with absolutely no forensic evidence.  None.  But torture thrown in
Cristavao too. 



They made a fortune between them with an extremely lurid story about Joanas abduction, soz murder  8)-))) with a bit of sex thrown in ....  LOL!  All to sell a few more copies? .... more lucre?

They made a fortune between them with a lurid story about Madeleines abduction, soz death in the apartment  8)-))) with a bit of sex thrown in....  LoL! all to sell a few more copies? ..... more lucre?



The repeat story is so predictable ... and the same as they produced for Joana.

Only wondering of course, but unbelievably similar aren't they?

How could you be so naive not to question it, Red?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 01:44:52 PM
Don't know if you are aware but, apart from the Torture of Cipriano, there were more than one conviction for Torture in Portugal in recent times, as far as I can see.

The first one involves Tavares de Almeida (Amaral's 2nd in command) who was convicted to a 2.5 years suspended prison sentence for the Torture of Mr. Virgilino Borges, an innocent Portuguese citizen.

http://expresso.sapo.pt/dois-inspetores-da-pj-condenados-por-tortura=f782292

The other one refers to a case in Lisbon where a young German student was tortured, officers involved in that case received a sentence four years and three months in prison.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/exclusivo-cm/tortura-leva-dois--policias-a-cadeia

The torture in the 2nd case was no more severe than the first, though there was ONE notable difference:

And an attaché of the German embassy monitored throughout the trial.

If I was Portuguese, I would be absolutely LIVID...


Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 02:00:35 PM
Don't know if you are aware but, apart from the Torture of Cipriano, there were more than one conviction for Torture in Portugal in recent times, as far as I can see.

The first one involves Tavares de Almeida (Amaral's 2nd in command) who was convicted to a 2.5 years suspended prison sentence for the Torture of Mr. Virgilino Borges, an innocent Portuguese citizen.

http://expresso.sapo.pt/dois-inspetores-da-pj-condenados-por-tortura=f782292

The other one refers to a case in Lisbon where a young German student was tortured, officers involved in that case received a sentence four years and three months in prison.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/exclusivo-cm/tortura-leva-dois--policias-a-cadeia

The torture in the 2nd case was no more severe than the first, though there was ONE notable difference:

And an attaché of the German embassy monitored throughout the trial.

If I was Portuguese, I would be absolutely LIVID...
This happens everywhere, it's not typical of Portugal where, at least, the media report these cases (and the two PSP officers were heavily and rightly condemned).
Lots of people travel without paying, usually they have either to pay a fine immediately or to sign a document and show their Identity Card. If they refuse both they're taken to the police station.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 09, 2013, 02:47:41 PM

Getting severely beaten for non payment of a Train Ticket seems a bit drastic.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 02:58:47 PM
Getting severely beaten for non payment of a Train Ticket seems a bit drastic.
I don't know what happened, but you're not taken to the police for non payment of a ticket. The control isn't done by policemen, of course. If you pay the fine you don't have to produce an IC. If you don't have the money for the fine, the controller will take note of your IC and (according to what I observed) give you a document with indications to pay in a multibanco. 
Police is called only in case of aggression.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 03:41:06 PM
This happens everywhere, it's not typical of Portugal where, at least, the media report these cases (and the two PSP officers were heavily and rightly condemned).
Lots of people travel without paying, usually they have either to pay a fine immediately or to sign a document and show their Identity Card. If they refuse both they're taken to the police station.

You make a pertinent point Anne. In the UK where we have had our fair share police brutality, some even leading to convictions being quashed, I think I am correct in saying not one of the officers involved has faced criminal charges. So well done Portugal for admitting when there is a problem and dealing with it appropriately.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 09, 2013, 04:39:11 PM
You make a pertinent point Anne. In the UK where we have had our fair share police brutality, some even leading to convictions being quashed, I think I am correct in saying not one of the officers involved has faced criminal charges. So well done Portugal for admitting when there is a problem and dealing with it appropriately.

What is the usual procedure in the UK if a police officer is under investigation? Do they stay on whatever case they are working on? Get suspended? Moved to other duties?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2013, 04:42:19 PM
You make a pertinent point Anne. In the UK where we have had our fair share police brutality, some even leading to convictions being quashed, I think I am correct in saying not one of the officers involved has faced criminal charges. So well done Portugal for admitting when there is a problem and dealing with it appropriately.

You're right Faithlilly, we did have cases of people being forced into giving false confessions and in those days a policeman's word would be taken over a prisoner in the dock in court almost as a matter of course.    But that was many decades ago in the main, and with the introduction of CCTV in police stations and interviews being video recorded there is little chance of that happening today.   

It seems to me that some sections of the Pj (not all) are still 'policing' in the 'old fashioned' way but fortunately it is being recognised and dealt with to some degree at least.  But nowhere near enough.  I have no idea why Leonor Cipriano is still in prison - that would certainly not be the case in the UK imo.


 

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 09, 2013, 05:06:30 PM

I very much doubt that The Ciprianos would ever have made it to Court in Britain, what with the dearth of evidence against them, and the amount of evidence that was decreed to be "Unproven",  as noted in The Trial Transcript.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 05:10:09 PM
You're right Faithlilly, we did have cases of people being forced into giving false confessions and in those days a policeman's word would be taken over a prisoner in the dock in court almost as a matter of course.    But that was many decades ago in the main, and with the introduction of CCTV in police stations and interviews being video recorded there is little chance of that happening today.   

It seems to me that some sections of the Pj (not all) are still 'policing' in the 'old fashioned' way but fortunately it is being recognised and dealt with to some degree at least.  But nowhere near enough.  I have no idea why Leonor Cipriano is still in prison - that would certainly not be the case in the UK imo.


 

Little chance of it happening now ? Really ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 09, 2013, 05:16:15 PM
It's an open document in FARO Court of Law, go there and look for yourself - I did.


Surely the press must have extensively covered the overturning of police officers' convictions? Where might I find links in the serious press about this?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mr Gray on June 09, 2013, 06:01:00 PM

Surely the press must have extensively covered the overturning of police officers' convictions? Where might I find links in the serious press about this?

the convictions weren't overturned
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 09, 2013, 06:13:28 PM
the convictions weren't overturned


I don't remember reading anything about that, either. So I'm confused as to what Luz is referring to.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 06:20:03 PM
Luz must be referring to all the pj officers she (LC)  accused of torture being found not guilty and IIRC after this she was tried and found guilty for perjury about this torture and her sentence increased by some months for it
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 09, 2013, 06:30:09 PM

From what I understood, Leonor was convicted because she couldn't identify the officers who had tortured her, and that apparently "Innocent" men had been charged and temporarily "Defamed" by those charges, before they were acquitted.
There has never been any doubt that she was tortured while in Police Custody.

I seem to remember that Amaral brought a accusation of Defamation against Marcos Correia because Marcos said that he, Amaral was involved in the torture, before Amaral was convicted.
Amaral lost that case.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 09, 2013, 06:36:49 PM
It's an open document in FARO Court of Law, go there and look for yourself - I did.

the convictions weren't overturned

No they were not. No surprize though, it was Faro court!

Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Department of the PJ of Portimão, was acquitted of the crime of failure to report and sentenced to a year and a half for the crime of making false allegations, with suspended sentence same period.

http://www.lux.iol.pt/nacionais/leonor-cipriano-condenada-a-sete-meses-por-mentir-a-justica-leonor-cipriano-prisao/1435391-4996.html

If you can manage to go through all of this, there is some rather interesting pieces in there.

20/04/2006

The document is the full report of the appeal process of Joana's 'murder' at the Supreme Court of Justice. It is lengthy (and boring...)  composed of two distinct parts, the final report (summary) and the detailed argumentation. It was voted by 4 judges and one against. This one made a 'declaration of vote'

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 09, 2013, 06:44:52 PM
Luz must be referring to all the pj officers she (LC)  accused of torture being found not guilty and IIRC after this she was tried and found guilty for perjury about this torture and her sentence increased by some months for it

Torture was found proved (hence Amaral's conviction) but the officers responsible for torture were not identified.

That was because Leonor had a bag over her head as she was being tortured ...
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 09, 2013, 06:54:14 PM
From what I understood, Leonor was convicted because she couldn't identify the officers who had tortured her, and that apparently "Innocent" men had been charged and temporarily "Defamed" by those charges, before they were acquitted.
There has never been any doubt that she was tortured while in Police Custody.

I seem to remember that Amaral brought a accusation of Defamation against Marcos Correia because Marcos said that he, Amaral was involved in the torture, before Amaral was convicted.
Amaral lost that case.

Yes only last year, Eleanor

http://www.tvi24.iol.pt/sociedade/goncalo-amaral-caso-joana-leonor-cipriano-pj-joana-tvi24/1357977-4071.html
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 07:13:43 PM
Torture was found proved (hence Amaral's conviction) but the officers responsible for torture were not identified.

That was because Leonor had a bag over her head as she was being tortured ...

So how then did she name them in the first place if she didnt know who it was?

Why did she get convicted  of perjury?

BTW Amarals conviction doesnt prove the PJ tortured her, cant you work it out?

So, no one has answered my previous post, LC was in the presence of her lawyer, not the mad one, the one before,  when she confessed which was the day BEFORE she says she was beaten for a confession, worked it out yet? And what would be the point of the police beating a confession out when confessions are INVALID in court


Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 09, 2013, 07:16:54 PM
So how then did she name them in the first place if she didnt know who it was?

Why did she get convicted  of perjury?

BTW Amarals conviction doesnt prove the PJ tortured her, cant you work it out?

So, no one has answered my previous post, LC was in the presence of her lawyer, not the mad one, the one before,  when she confessed which was the day BEFORE she says she was beaten for a confession, worked it out yet? And what would be the point of the police beating a confession out when confessions are INVALID in court

You are confusing those present with those responsible for torture.

Before the bag was placed over her head, she'd have known who was present.

After the bag was placed over her head, she'd have had no clue who delivered the blows

...
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 09, 2013, 07:21:28 PM
You are confusing those present with those responsible for torture.

Before the bag was placed over her head, she'd have known who was present.

After the bag was placed over her head, she'd have had no clue who delivered the blows

...

This is only too true.  Sickening to say.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 07:26:29 PM
You are confusing those present with those responsible for torture.

Before the bag was placed over her head, she'd have known who was present.

After the bag was placed over her head, she'd have had no clue who delivered the blows

...

she said amaral was there, egging them on,  it was proven he was not there at the time ,that makes her a liar, im sure judges knew what they were doing, and all her appeals quashed, time and time again,  there is, after all this, no evidence police beat her over her inmates after her confession in the presence of her lawyer, the daybefore she alledges she was by police, perhaps it leaked out, incidentally, what this  has to do with the mccann case is beyond me as theynever were tortured or ever going to be

 >@@(*&)

And dont forget she is convicted of perjury as well as murder, do go on supporting her though if it bolsters your anti amaral agenda, and also i see from you and your ilk you are so keen to cherrypick, a single conviction based on a technicality makes mr amaral a CONVICTED CRIMINAL and they were right  but multiple decisions by the courts  on LC being a murderer and a perjurer, means thry are wrong and she must be INNOCENT, barf





Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 09, 2013, 08:10:10 PM
The woman is a proven liar and murderer.

END OF.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 09, 2013, 08:45:25 PM
The woman is a proven liar and murderer.

END OF.

So is Amaral, he was convicted for it! END OF!
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 08:56:09 PM
interesting, so many people mollycoddling the convicted murderess when even her  own family have disowned her

Anything to blacken mr amaral and the pj and hoping  it paints themccanns whiter, abject failure in this argument

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 09, 2013, 08:58:07 PM
So how then did she name them in the first place if she didnt know who it was?

Why did she get convicted  of perjury?

BTW Amarals conviction doesnt prove the PJ tortured her, cant you work it out?

So, no one has answered my previous post, LC was in the presence of her lawyer, not the mad one, the one before,  when she confessed which was the day BEFORE she says she was beaten for a confession, worked it out yet? And what would be the point of the police beating a confession out when confessions are INVALID in court

That would be Joao Grade,

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_E-UoIsmKSrE/S0Izff79GTI/AAAAAAAAAjU/Kzq7D3p6sZ8/s400/Joao+Grade.jpg)

The one caught taking drugs into a prison. The one that went on to defend Amaral, but refused to defend him again, for none payment.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 09:13:46 PM
That would be Joao Grade,

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_E-UoIsmKSrE/S0Izff79GTI/AAAAAAAAAjU/Kzq7D3p6sZ8/s400/Joao+Grade.jpg)

The one caught taking drugs into a prison. The one that went on to defend Amaral, but refused to defend him again, for none payment.

awwww DCI go give LC a hug then next time you are there

Which part of convicted and all appeals quashed dont you understand?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 09, 2013, 09:22:25 PM
awwww DCI go give LC a hug then next time you are there

Which part of convicted and all appeals quashed dont you understand?

I will, don't fret.
By the way, did you know, Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

 8-)(--)
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 09:30:38 PM
8-)(--)

i agree with  you you dont know so are scratching  your head

Cheers and dont worry about it

Oh and cite lca lawyer took drugs in and why ta

Why the   Mad marcos took over lcs case and her brothers YEARS later when his remit was to create dirt on mr a

Perhaps u can follow up with why the mcccanns  employed m3 and they are crooks


Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 10:33:38 PM
So is Amaral, he was convicted for it! END OF!

Yes, Amaral testified in court that Cipriano received her injuries by throwing herself down the stairs IN the police station. So if anyone is claiming that she was instead beaten up by other "inmates", that means Amaral would be even MORE of a liar.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id248.html

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 10:35:37 PM
Torture was found proved (hence Amaral's conviction) but the officers responsible for torture were not identified.

That was because Leonor had a bag over her head as she was being tortured ...

Or did she ? She was done with perjury after all.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 11:09:07 PM
The torture of Cipriano has been established by a court of law, it has then been reconfirmed by an appeal court. In the perjury case of Cipriano, she was found to have given false statement re the identity of those who tortured her. The reason she could not have identified them is because she was forced to wear a bag over her head.

Another possibility is that she was confused & reported the officers she saw before the bag was placed over her head. Portuguese courts seem unaware that one the reasons why torturers use these methods is to inflict pain, extreme fear & disorientation in victims.  In that state, it's easier to "convince" the victim to sign a confession to whatever is proposed.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 11:23:38 PM
Yes, Amaral testified in court that Cipriano received her injuries by throwing herself down the stairs IN the police station. So if anyone is claiming that she was instead beaten up by other "inmates", that means Amaral would be even MORE of a liar.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id248.html

She had minor bruising only when she first arrived at prison from her attempt to throw herself over the balcony and either sustained more a more serious beating while there or alternatively the photographs of her injuries could have been tampered with. We may truly never know.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 11:27:02 PM
You will just have to accept that the Torture of Leonor Cipriano has been confirmed in a court of law, not once, but TWICE, it was also given as proven in her perjury case.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 11:39:27 PM
You will just have to accept that the Torture of Leonor Cipriano has been confirmed in a court of law, not once, but TWICE, it was also given as proven in her perjury case.

Twice ? The second court was only repeating what the first court had decided.

A conviction achieved solely on the evidence of only one person, who later was found to have perjured themselves, would not stand in this country.

Further if I have to accept the torture of Cipriano then you will have to accept her conviction for the murder of her daughter, which she has launched multiple unsuccessful appeals against.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 09, 2013, 11:51:16 PM
She had minor bruising only when she first arrived at prison from her attempt to throw herself over the balcony and either sustained more a more serious beating while there or alternatively the photographs of her injuries could have been tampered with. We may truly never know.

What balcony?

The photo's were proved authentic, and the govenor of the prison backed them up. I wonder why they fetched Leonor to Faro, while the govenor was on her holidays.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 10, 2013, 12:11:12 AM
What balcony?

The photo's were proved authentic, and the govenor of the prison backed them up. I wonder why they fetched Leonor to Faro, while the govenor was on her holidays.

It was not riven that the photographs were authentic. In fact a photographic expert who testified at Amaral's trial had grave concerns over their provenance.

As to the governor, one of her prison warders testified in court that she had been asked by Calado to change a report in which she had described minimal bruising to Cipriano to describe more serious injuries.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 10, 2013, 12:20:43 AM
It was not riven that the photographs were authentic. In fact a photographic expert who testified at Amaral's trial had grave concerns over their provenance.

As to the governor, one of her prison warders testified in court that she had been asked by Calado to change a report in which she had described minimal bruising to Cipriano to describe more serious injuries.

I presume you have a cite for that?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 10, 2013, 12:31:31 AM
I presume you have a cite for that?

You will find the details in the following link :

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id177.html

If you want me to narrow it down for you you will have to wait until tomorrow.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 10, 2013, 08:29:50 AM
Appeal Court Verdict

The Court of Appeal in Évora rejected all appeals concerning aggression against Leonor Cipriano, Joana's mother, who disappeared in 2004 in the Algarve, confirming the full end of First Instance judgment in this case.

The Relation of Evora thus confirmed the application of suspended sentences inspectors Goncalo Amaral, for lying to the court system, and António Cardoso, for forgery.


http://www.tsf.pt/PaginaInicial/Portugal/Interior.aspx?content_id=1809637&tag=Leonor%20Cipriano
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 10, 2013, 09:08:34 AM
So is Amaral, he was convicted for it! END OF!

How pathetic.

Cipriano is a convicted murderer.

Amaral tried to solve MADELEINE'S disappearance and ALLEGEDLY colluded in the beating up of Cipriano, who is a proven liar.

Says everything about you.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 10, 2013, 09:13:42 AM
Appeal Court Verdict

The Court of Appeal in Évora rejected all appeals concerning aggression against Leonor Cipriano, Joana's mother, who disappeared in 2004 in the Algarve, confirming the full end of First Instance judgment in this case.

The Relation of Evora thus confirmed the application of suspended sentences inspectors Goncalo Amaral, for lying to the court system, and António Cardoso, for forgery.


http://www.tsf.pt/PaginaInicial/Portugal/Interior.aspx?content_id=1809637&tag=Leonor%20Cipriano

What could be more clear or unamibiguous than that?  Amaral was, and remains, a convicted liar, and has a criminal record to show for his part in the attempted cover up of the torture of a defenceless woman.
 
Interesting that the court uses the word 'disappeared' and not  'murdered'.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 10, 2013, 09:23:14 AM
What could be more clear or unamibiguous than that?  Amaral was, and remains, a convicted liar, and has a criminal record to show for his part in the attempted cover up of the torture of a defenceless woman.
 
Interesting that the court uses the word 'disappeared' and not  'murdered'.


Can you clearly state the FACTS that Amaral covered up the 'torture' of Cipriano.

No hearsay please, just facts.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Angelo222 on June 10, 2013, 09:42:47 AM
Portuguese justice has really come under the spotlight in the Cipriano case.  Here we have a confession obtained under duress and torture and a prosecution which is without doubt suspect yet this woman remains in prison because the Portuguese justiciary cannot bring themselves to admit that they messed up.  An appalling injustice by a European State which considers itself to be part of the civilised world.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 10, 2013, 09:54:41 AM

1. The Appeal Court of Evora thus confirmed the application of suspended sentences inspectors Goncalo Amaral, for lying to the court system, and António Cardoso, for forgery.


http://pesquisa.sapo.pt/common/htm/pubnavigator.htm?q=jn&host=jn%2Esapo%2Ept&ptr=1

2. Two chief inspectors of the PJ, [José Diamantino Santos e Vitor Tavares de Almeida] were today sentenced to two years in prison, on probation for torture against the official CP Virgolino Borges, the victim's lawyer told Lusa.

http://sol.sapo.pt/inicio/Sociedade/Interior.aspx?content_id=67051

3. "The prosecutors formally charged on 14 December, the former vice president of Sporting, Paulo Pereira Cristovao, seven crimes, including aggravated fraud, money laundering, embezzlement, slanderous denunciation ....."

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/sport/sporting/paulo-pereira-cristovao-acusado

4. Ricardo Paiva (no need to repeat that embarrassing, though not illegal, episode)

All members of the PJ team investigating the disappearance of Madeleine.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 10, 2013, 10:03:38 AM

Can you clearly state the FACTS that Amaral covered up the 'torture' of Cipriano.

No hearsay please, just facts.

The evidence was produced in a Portuguese Court of Law to prove that he lied.   As a result of that evidence (i.e. the facts) Amaral was convicted of lying to the court about what happened to Leonor Cipriano.     His later appeal against that conviction for perjury was thrown out of court.

Are you saying his conviction was unrelated to the the attempted cover up of the torture of Leonor Cipriano?
If so, then what in your opinion was he found guilty of?

     

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 10, 2013, 10:06:16 AM
Portuguese justice has really come under the spotlight in the Cipriano case.  Here we have a confession obtained under duress and torture and a prosecution which is without doubt suspect yet this woman remains in prison because the Portuguese justiciary cannot bring themselves to admit that they messed up.  An appalling injustice by a European State which considers itself to be part of the civilised world.

NO.

This woman whom you defend is a convicted murderer.

Never forget that.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 10, 2013, 10:09:56 AM
NO.

This woman whom you defend is a convicted murderer.

Never forget that.

You seem to have forgotten that she was convicted on the evidence of a convicted liar.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 10, 2013, 10:17:04 AM
An appalling injustice by a European State which considers itself to be part of the civilised world.
Angelo, if you're deeply convinced of such a serious injustice :
Applications to the Court must be sent by post to the following address
The Registrar
European Court of Human Rights
Council of Europe
F-67075 Strasbourg cedex
Fax: +33 (0)3 88 41 27 30
Mrs Cipriano's lawyer should be able to provide the documents required for the application to be accepted.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 10, 2013, 10:20:02 AM
Same court system that convicted Cipriano ALSO convicted Amaral. To state the fact that Amaral WAS convicted of the crime of giving false testimony to the court is not actually defending Cipriano. In this case it was proven in a court of law that torture had taken place, it was then re-confirmed by an appeal court. Defending the human right not to be TORTURED by authorities is a personal choice.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 10, 2013, 10:37:32 AM
Angelo, if you're deeply convinced of such a serious injustice :
Applications to the Court must be sent by post to the following address
The Registrar
European Court of Human Rights
Council of Europe
F-67075 Strasbourg cedex
Fax: +33 (0)3 88 41 27 30
Mrs Cipriano's lawyer should be able to provide the documents required for the application to be accepted.

No need really, I think they're pretty much aware anyway.

Anti-torture group highlights police abuse claims by detainees

More than a year after visiting Portugal for a sixth time, the Council of Europe’s Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CPT) has issued a lengthy report published on Wednesday 24 April underlying several cases of alleged ill-treatment by Portuguese law enforcement authorities.

In the course of the 2012 visit, the CPT’s delegation examined the treatment of persons deprived of their liberty by law enforcement agencies and of the safeguards against ill-treatment in place.
The report on the visit highlights several cases of alleged ill-treatment.
During the visit, the CPT’s delegation reviewed the treatment of persons detained by various police services (Judicial Police, Public Security Police and Republican National Guard).
The CPT says it received a number of allegations of ill-treatment at the time of apprehension, after the persons concerned had been brought under control, and prior to arrival at police detention facilities; these allegations concerned the PSP, GNR and PJ.
Some allegations of ill-treatment by the judicial police during the interrogation process were also received. In both situations, the ill-treatment was said to consist primarily of slaps, punches and kicks to the body and/or head.
In one case, the alleged ill-treatment was said to have taken place early on the morning of 24 June 2011 by the side of a road near Santiago do Cacém.
A vehicle containing suspected stolen goods was stopped by a GNR patrol and the four occupants were arrested and handcuffed. After some 15 minutes a GNR officer of the rank of Captain arrived on the scene.
Apparently, he was extremely angry that the four persons had carried out a burglary on “his” territory and, using a whip (known as a “piche de boi” and some 50 cm in length) proceeded to beat two of the arrested persons.
Subsequently, the officer allegedly pulled out a serrated knife from his belt and stabbed one of the same persons in the right buttock.
The four suspects were taken to the police station, where one of them alleged that he was again assaulted by the Captain in the car park and received several truncheon blows to the right side of his upper body and to his legs.
Meanwhile, due to the profuse bleeding of the suspect who had been stabbed, the person concerned was taken to hospital where he received some ten stitches.
However, no medical certificate was supplied at the time, nor has it been made available since.
Also, and while the CPT said authorities were mostly helpful in providing assistance with its investigations, its delegation did face resistance from police, such as when it was unable to access the premises of the National Republican Guard station in Sintra despite waiting for 20 minutes, as the duty officer was apparently busy with other duties.
The delegation also visited a number of prisons, focusing on various categories of prisoners, notably those in disciplinary segregation and in high security units as well as juveniles and those held on remand.
In relation to prisons, the report noted the steady increase in the prison population and recommends a multi-pronged approach towards eradicating overcrowding.
It describes the state of dilapidation at Lisbon Central Prison, made worse by chronic overcrowding, and the particularly poor conditions in the basement areas.
The CPT recommends that urgent steps be taken to improve conditions in this prison.
In respect of the high security units at Linhó and Paços de Ferreira Prisons, the report recommends that inmates in these units be provided with a programme of activities and not confined to their cells for up to 22 hours a day.
Recommendations are also made to improve the disciplinary system, including the reduction of the maximum period of solitary confinement as a punishment to 14 days.
In an unrelated development, prison guards in Portugal on Wednesday initiated industrial action, which will last until Tuesday 30 April, against the loss of benefits.
Areas worst affected by the strike are expected to be the transport of prisoners to and from court houses and prison visits of inmates by friends and family.
The full report, including Portuguese authorities’ response to allegations and recommendations is available at:
http://www.cpt.coe.int/documents/prt/2013-04-inf-eng.htm#_Toc331493245

http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/anti-torture-group-highlights-police-abuse-claims-by-detainees/28269
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mo Stache on June 10, 2013, 10:40:10 AM
You seem to have forgotten that she was convicted on the evidence of a convicted liar.
This is a very important point imo.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 10, 2013, 10:52:34 AM
You seem to have forgotten that she was convicted on the evidence of a convicted liar.

Can you prove that  Amaral  was involved in the so called 'torture' of Cipriano, who is a convicted LIAR herself ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mo Stache on June 10, 2013, 11:03:22 AM
Can you prove that  Amaral  was involved in the so called 'torture' of Cipriano, who is a convicted LIAR herself ?
Someone who is involved in an alleged crime of torture doesn't necessarily have to had tortured the person making the claim. Involved also includes those who turned a blind eye to what was going on or who falsified documentation to cover up the alleged torture. Amaral didn't need to have hit Cipriano to have been involved in her torture.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 10, 2013, 11:04:38 AM
Can you prove that  Amaral  was involved in the so called 'torture' of Cipriano, who is a convicted LIAR herself ?

I have never seen any credible evidence that the child got home that night, let alone was killed there.

If Leonor and her brother really did kill her, then they are where they should be: serving long sentences.

IFF they weren't, then the child disappeared in other circumstances.

Something that I find awful is that the third girl in the recent US case wasn't even on the radar as a potential long-term captive by some freak.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 10, 2013, 11:06:34 AM
Appeal Court Verdict

The Court of Appeal in Évora rejected all appeals concerning aggression against Leonor Cipriano, Joana's mother, who disappeared in 2004 in the Algarve, confirming the full end of First Instance judgment in this case.

The Relation of Evora thus confirmed the application of suspended sentences inspectors Goncalo Amaral, for lying to the court system, and António Cardoso, for forgery.


http://www.tsf.pt/PaginaInicial/Portugal/Interior.aspx?content_id=1809637&tag=Leonor%20Cipriano

The link won't open for me on my iPad. The appeal took place before Cipriano's recent conviction for perjury, yes ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 10, 2013, 11:15:04 AM
No need really, I think they're pretty much aware anyway.

Anti-torture group highlights police abuse claims by detainees

More than a year after visiting Portugal for a sixth time, the Council of Europe’s Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CPT) has issued a lengthy report published on Wednesday 24 April underlying several cases of alleged ill-treatment by Portuguese law enforcement authorities.

In the course of the 2012 visit, the CPT’s delegation examined the treatment of persons deprived of their liberty by law enforcement agencies and of the safeguards against ill-treatment in place.
The report on the visit highlights several cases of alleged ill-treatment.
During the visit, the CPT’s delegation reviewed the treatment of persons detained by various police services (Judicial Police, Public Security Police and Republican National Guard).
The CPT says it received a number of allegations of ill-treatment at the time of apprehension, after the persons concerned had been brought under control, and prior to arrival at police detention facilities; these allegations concerned the PSP, GNR and PJ.
Some allegations of ill-treatment by the judicial police during the interrogation process were also received. In both situations, the ill-treatment was said to consist primarily of slaps, punches and kicks to the body and/or head.
In one case, the alleged ill-treatment was said to have taken place early on the morning of 24 June 2011 by the side of a road near Santiago do Cacém.
A vehicle containing suspected stolen goods was stopped by a GNR patrol and the four occupants were arrested and handcuffed. After some 15 minutes a GNR officer of the rank of Captain arrived on the scene.
Apparently, he was extremely angry that the four persons had carried out a burglary on “his” territory and, using a whip (known as a “piche de boi” and some 50 cm in length) proceeded to beat two of the arrested persons.
Subsequently, the officer allegedly pulled out a serrated knife from his belt and stabbed one of the same persons in the right buttock.
The four suspects were taken to the police station, where one of them alleged that he was again assaulted by the Captain in the car park and received several truncheon blows to the right side of his upper body and to his legs.
Meanwhile, due to the profuse bleeding of the suspect who had been stabbed, the person concerned was taken to hospital where he received some ten stitches.
However, no medical certificate was supplied at the time, nor has it been made available since.
Also, and while the CPT said authorities were mostly helpful in providing assistance with its investigations, its delegation did face resistance from police, such as when it was unable to access the premises of the National Republican Guard station in Sintra despite waiting for 20 minutes, as the duty officer was apparently busy with other duties.
The delegation also visited a number of prisons, focusing on various categories of prisoners, notably those in disciplinary segregation and in high security units as well as juveniles and those held on remand.
In relation to prisons, the report noted the steady increase in the prison population and recommends a multi-pronged approach towards eradicating overcrowding.
It describes the state of dilapidation at Lisbon Central Prison, made worse by chronic overcrowding, and the particularly poor conditions in the basement areas.
The CPT recommends that urgent steps be taken to improve conditions in this prison.
In respect of the high security units at Linhó and Paços de Ferreira Prisons, the report recommends that inmates in these units be provided with a programme of activities and not confined to their cells for up to 22 hours a day.
Recommendations are also made to improve the disciplinary system, including the reduction of the maximum period of solitary confinement as a punishment to 14 days.
In an unrelated development, prison guards in Portugal on Wednesday initiated industrial action, which will last until Tuesday 30 April, against the loss of benefits.
Areas worst affected by the strike are expected to be the transport of prisoners to and from court houses and prison visits of inmates by friends and family.
The full report, including Portuguese authorities’ response to allegations and recommendations is available at:
http://www.cpt.coe.int/documents/prt/2013-04-inf-eng.htm#_Toc331493245

http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/anti-torture-group-highlights-police-abuse-claims-by-detainees/28269
Thank you, Mrs. B. It shows that the European institutions work well and I'm glad that "the Portuguese government has requested the publication of this report and of its response."
The CPT depends on the Council of Europe, though, I was speaking of another institution, specific to the EU, the ECHR.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 10, 2013, 11:20:43 AM
This court case?

Caso Joana: mãe condenada a sete meses por mentir à Justiça

Joana Case: mother convicted to seven months for lying to the court

http://www.tvi24.iol.pt/503/sociedade/joana-homicidio-leonor-cipriano-tvi24/1435335-4071.html

"O tribunal deu como provadas as agressões, embora sem que se tenha apurado a identidade dos agressores."


"The court gave as proven the aggression, although without having ascertained the identity of the attackers."


What part of the above is unclear?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 10, 2013, 11:31:30 AM
Thank you, Mrs. B. It shows that the European institutions work well and I'm glad that "the Portuguese government has requested the publication of this report and of its response."
The CPT depends on the Council of Europe, though, I was speaking of another institution, specific to the EU, the ECHR.

Yes, I'm pleased for Portuguese citizens too - it shows that, at least there are steps being taken to stamp out disgraceful& illegal practices employed by some elements of law enforcement in Portugal.

ECHR & CTP are closely linked together btw

Prevention of torture
A European Committee (CPT)

Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights provides that "no one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."

This article inspired the 1987 drafting of the European Convention for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. The Convention gave birth to a non-judicial preventive machinery to protect detainees, based on a system of visits by the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture (CPT).

The CPT has developed detailed standards setting out the criteria whereby the treatment of detainees and prison conditions can be regarded as consistent with human dignity.

The CPT, composed of experts drawn from a variety of professional backgrounds, is the only institution world-wide which can at any time inspect any place of detention located in one of the member states of the Council of Europe.


http://hub.coe.int/what-we-do/human-rights/prevention-of-torture
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 10, 2013, 11:35:38 AM
This court case?

Caso Joana: mãe condenada a sete meses por mentir à Justiça

Joana Case: mother convicted to seven months for lying to the court

http://www.tvi24.iol.pt/503/sociedade/joana-homicidio-leonor-cipriano-tvi24/1435335-4071.html

"O tribunal deu como provadas as agressões, embora sem que se tenha apurado a identidade dos agressores."


"The court gave as proven the aggression, although without having ascertained the identity of the attackers."


What part of the above is unclear?

This is what it is all about.  The PJ Officers charged with Torture were acquitted.  It was these officers who brought the case against Leonor Cipriano who was unable to prove that it was them wot done it.  Not surprisingly.
But The PJ Hierarchy know who was where and when, and now appear to be after the Pensions of these men.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 10, 2013, 11:39:57 AM
Yes, I'm pleased for Portuguese citizens too - it shows that, at least there are steps being taken to stamp out disgraceful& illegal practices employed by some elements of law enforcement in Portugal.

ECHR & CTP are closely linked together btw

Prevention of torture
A European Committee (CPT)

Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights provides that "no one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."

This article inspired the 1987 drafting of the European Convention for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. The Convention gave birth to a non-judicial preventive machinery to protect detainees, based on a system of visits by the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture (CPT).

The CPT has developed detailed standards setting out the criteria whereby the treatment of detainees and prison conditions can be regarded as consistent with human dignity.

The CPT, composed of experts drawn from a variety of professional backgrounds, is the only institution world-wide which can at any time inspect any place of detention located in one of the member states of the Council of Europe.


http://hub.coe.int/what-we-do/human-rights/prevention-of-torture
All these institutions are linked of course, but, as you know, not all member states of the Council of Europe are member states of the EU, hence concerned by the ECHR.
Is your interest about the  CPT interventions limited to Portugal or does it extend to France, for instance ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 10, 2013, 11:43:23 AM
My interest in human rights issues is global, thanks for asking, however, we are discussing the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, that was in Portugal & it's the HR issues relating to that case that are being highlighted.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 10, 2013, 11:53:01 AM
 ?8)@)-)
This court case?

Caso Joana: mãe condenada a sete meses por mentir à Justiça

Joana Case: mother convicted to seven months for lying to the court

http://www.tvi24.iol.pt/503/sociedade/joana-homicidio-leonor-cipriano-tvi24/1435335-4071.html

"O tribunal deu como provadas as agressões, embora sem que se tenha apurado a identidade dos agressores."


"The court gave as proven the aggression, although without having ascertained the identity of the attackers."


What part of the above is unclear?


The court accepted as proven. What else would you expect after a verdict has been delivered ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 10, 2013, 11:54:45 AM
My interest in human rights issues is global, thanks for asking, however, we are discussing the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, that was in Portugal & it's the HR issues relating to that case that are being highlighted.
I appreciate your concern about the state of prisons in Portugal but it has nothing to do with Madeleine McCann whose case isn't discussed on this thread. There's no suspicion of violation of human rights in MMC case, Mr Murat didn't complain at least, though I'm conscious there were kind of mental tortures in his respect.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 10, 2013, 11:56:00 AM
I'm not at all convinced by what supposedly happened to Joana Cipriano.

She might be dead, she might be alive.

How can anyone forget the Dutroux case? Two adolescents died, two young kids died, two were eventually found alive.

How can anyone forget the instances in which other kids have eventually been found alive?

A thorough investigaton may well lead to the conclusion that a particular child has died (even if any investigation may have led to errors).

The result of less thorough investigations may leave kids screaming out for help in a world that can't hear them or is no longer listening to their family and friends.

How fair is that?

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 10, 2013, 11:58:08 AM
I don't agree, I think it's highly significant & quite notable that at least TWO officers investigating the case were, at the same time, not only investigated for, but had been CHARGED with torture related offences. They shouldn't even have been let NEAR any investigations, let alone another missing child case. IMO.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 10, 2013, 12:01:49 PM
The eyes of the world were watching when Madeleine disappeared.  Why else does anyone think The British Ambassador turned up so quickly?
The British Embassy knew all about The PJ's and Amaral's penchant for obtaining confessions by torture, and they weren't going to let that happen again.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 10, 2013, 12:49:40 PM
The conspiration of the beginning of the century ?
Was Madeleine McCann just instrumental, the idea being to convict those cops and sanction the country that allowed them to exist ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 10, 2013, 01:01:45 PM
////
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 10, 2013, 01:02:29 PM
The conspiration of the beginning of the century ?
Was Madeleine McCann just instrumental, the idea being to convict those cops and sanction the country that allowed them to exist ?

Or...they could just have sacked them? Just a thought, like...
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 10, 2013, 01:32:30 PM
The conspiration of the beginning of the century ?
Was Madeleine McCann just instrumental, the idea being to convict those cops and sanction the country that allowed them to exist ?

Could you expand on your thoughts?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 10, 2013, 03:04:57 PM
Or...they could just have sacked them? Just a thought, like...
I was kidding of course, any suggestion of conspiracy is on the side of irrationality.
The Portuguese State is sovereign. I find healthy Portuguese citizens criticizing their judiciary system (independent of the executive), I find extraordinary foreigners judging a country of which they ignore the culture and the language.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 10, 2013, 05:34:56 PM
Someone who is involved in an alleged crime of torture doesn't necessarily have to had tortured the person making the claim. Involved also includes those who turned a blind eye to what was going on or who falsified documentation to cover up the alleged torture. Amaral didn't need to have hit Cipriano to have been involved in her torture.

So where exactly is the carte blanche proof that Amaral colluded in the 'torture' of CIPRIANO ?

i.e. Not an opinion he did, just undeniable PROOF .
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 10, 2013, 05:36:48 PM
So where exactly is the carte blanche proof that Amaral colluded in the 'torture' of CIPRIANO ?

i.e. Not an opinion he did, just undeniable PROOF .

Amaral's conviction in a court of Portuguese law ....
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 10, 2013, 05:39:52 PM
Amaral's conviction in a court of Portuguese law ....

So where is the physical/literary evidence he colluded in 'torture'  honestbroker ?

P.S. I'm not interested in hearsay.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 10, 2013, 05:42:02 PM
So where is the physical/literary evidence he colluded in 'torture'  honestbroker ?

P.S. I'm not interested in hearsay.

Regard Amaral's conviction in a court of Portuguese law as "hearsay" if you wish ..
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 10, 2013, 05:43:47 PM
Regard Amaral's conviction in a court of Portuguese law as "hearsay" if you wish ..

So what proof is there in black and white of collusion in 'torture'  ?

P.S. Innocent people have been convicted before.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 10, 2013, 05:46:35 PM
So what proof is there in black and white of collusion in 'torture'  ?

P.S. Innocent people have been convicted before.

Amaral was also convicted of fraud.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 10, 2013, 05:49:51 PM
So what proof is there in black and white of collusion in 'torture'  ?

P.S. Innocent people have been convicted before.

Is it a fact that Amaral has a conviction for covering up torture to Leonor Cipriano?

Or is it a fact that Amaral has a conviction for covering up torture to Leonor Cipriano?

A straight "yes" or "yes" will do
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 10, 2013, 05:53:15 PM
Is it a fact that Amaral has a conviction for covering up torture to Leonor Cipriano?

Or is it a fact that Amaral has a conviction for covering up torture to Leonor Cipriano?

A straight "yes" or "yes" will do

SO BY THAT LOGIC HONESTBROKER, ANYONE CONVICTED OF A CRIME IS GUILTY.

so you must agree CIPRIANO IS GULITY OF HER DAUGHTER'S MURDER ?

A simple 'yes' or 'yes' will do.  8)-)))
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 10, 2013, 05:57:41 PM
SO BY THAT LOGIC HONESTBROKER, ANYONE CONVICTED OF A CRIME IS GUILTY.

so you must agree CIPRIANO IS GULITY OF HER DAUGHTER'S MURDER ?

A simple 'yes' or 'yes' will do.  8)-)))
Seeing as Leonor's conviction has not been overturned people are entitled to assert as if "fact" that Leonor murdered her daughter, yes.

And seeing as the governor of the prison had Leonor medically examined, it is a fact, asserted by a medical doctor, that Leonor was tortured.

How the Portuguese system regards the conviction as safe despite that fact is beyond me.

But it does.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 10, 2013, 07:25:07 PM
Confessions are inadmissible in court, therefore she was not convicted on this confession, but for other reasons, thatshe was beaten up by persons unknown has nothing to do with the safety of the conviction
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 10, 2013, 10:51:01 PM
Is it a fact that Amaral has a conviction for covering up torture to Leonor Cipriano?

Or is it a fact that Amaral has a conviction for covering up torture to Leonor Cipriano?

A straight "yes" or "yes" will do

And you don't suppose that in this country if the lead prosecution witness had been convicted of perjury while testifying in the very same case Amaral's conviction would have been swiftly overturned ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2013, 07:22:58 AM
And you don't suppose that in this country if the lead prosecution witness had been convicted of perjury while testifying in the very same case Amaral's conviction would have been swiftly overturned ?


Indeed, well said Faithlilly.

Meanwhile honestbroker, opn what evidence was Amaral convicted of colluding with 'torture' of the murderer Cipriano ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 09:09:03 AM
And you don't suppose that in this country if the lead prosecution witness had been convicted of perjury while testifying in the very same case Amaral's conviction would have been swiftly overturned ?

Surely not in the Cipriano case though, because Leonor did not accuse Amaral of writing or confirming an erroneous report of what had happened to her.   How could she know who had done that? - she wasn't there.  The same goes for the other police officer who was convicted of forgery.   Surely it would be their own  'paperwork' which those two had submitted that would have been used as evidence against them.   

She was convicted of perjury because she couldn't prove the men who she had named as her torturers were those men.   

If they were innocent then it is understandable they would want that 'slur' on their name removed.  However, someone tortured her at that police station.   But as far as I am aware - the Pj have not been able to find out who the criminals were who perpetrated this atrocity under their very own roof.   Unbelievable!
IMHO

 

 



     

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2013, 09:22:40 AM
Surely not in the Cipriano case though, because Leonor did not accuse Amaral of writing or confirming an erroneous report of what had happened to her.   How could she know who had done that? - she wasn't there.  The same goes for the other police officer who was convicted of forgery.   Surely it would be their own  'paperwork' which those two had submitted that would have been used as evidence against them.   

She was convicted of perjury because she couldn't prove the men who she had named as her torturers were those men.   

If they were innocent then it is understandable they would want that 'slur' on their name removed.  However, someone tortured her at that police station.   But as far as I am aware - the Pj have not been able to find out who the criminals were who perpetrated this atrocity under their very own roof.   Unbelievable!
IMHO

Have you forgotten this woman is convicted of murdering her own daughter.
 

 



     
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 09:39:07 AM


What has that got to do with content of my post?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2013, 09:44:03 AM
What has that got to do with content of my post?

What has it got to do with torturing a suspect?  Was she ever made an Arguida with the right to silence?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 10:00:06 AM
http://iscte.pt/~apad/ACED_juristas/maddietrab_ficheiros/Acordao%20Leonor%20Cipriano%20contra%20Goncalo%20e%20outros.%2022Maio2009.pdf

Here's the full verdict (case against Amaral) if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 11, 2013, 10:56:30 AM
Surely not in the Cipriano case though, because Leonor did not accuse Amaral of writing or confirming an erroneous report of what had happened to her.   How could she know who had done that? - she wasn't there.  The same goes for the other police officer who was convicted of forgery.   Surely it would be their own  'paperwork' which those two had submitted that would have been used as evidence against them.   

She was convicted of perjury because she couldn't prove the men who she had named as her torturers were those men.   

If they were innocent then it is understandable they would want that 'slur' on their name removed.  However, someone tortured her at that police station.   But as far as I am aware - the Pj have not been able to find out who the criminals were who perpetrated this atrocity under their very own roof.   Unbelievable!
IMHO

 

 



     


No, she was convicted of perjury because she was proven to have lied. In the UK proving a lead prosecution witness lied would send the case speedily back to the court of appeal where the conviction,  procured on that evidence, would be quashed.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 11, 2013, 11:10:33 AM

http://sicnoticias.sapo.pt/pais/2013/03/04/comeca-hoje-julgamento-de-leonor-cipriano

The Court of Faro will request the Public Ministry to open a judicial inquiry on Leonor Cipriano over the crime of false statements in the trial of present and former PJ inspectors within the “Joana case”.

In the ruling, that was read out on Friday and which the Lusa Agency accessed today, the collective of judges considered that the statements that Leonor Cipriano produced during the trial sessions contained “flagrant and relevant contradictions”, and therefore determined that a certificate should be extracted, to which a copy of the tape recordings was added.

In the verdict, it is mentioned that the mother of the child that disappeared on the 12th of September 2004, in the village of Figueira, in Portimão, “was offered (…) an extensive opportunity to reveal the truth” during the trial sessions at the Court of Faro, but “essentially seized the opportunity to lie”.

“Leonor Cipriano lied about the manner in which she was beaten, about the identification of the persons that beat her, about the time and the manner how she revealed that she had been beaten, in short, she lied about every essential aspect of the statements that she gave”, the verdict stresses.

Underlining that Leonor Cipriano presented “no plausible reason whatsoever to have done so”, the collective of three judges, presided by Henrique Pavão, considered that Joana’s mother revealed “major contradictions” and that she presented “very different versions for one and the same fact”.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 11, 2013, 11:20:29 AM
What was Bill Clinton accused of ? Some intimate relationship in the Oval Office ?
Though an inappropriate place, it isn't the reason why Bill Clinton was impeached.
Perjury was : he had lied.
Requiring a two-thirds majority for a conviction, 45 senators (out of 100) voted guilty on the perjury charge.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 11:45:49 AM
http://sicnoticias.sapo.pt/pais/2013/03/04/comeca-hoje-julgamento-de-leonor-cipriano

The Court of Faro will request the Public Ministry to open a judicial inquiry on Leonor Cipriano over the crime of false statements in the trial of present and former PJ inspectors within the “Joana case”.

In the ruling, that was read out on Friday and which the Lusa Agency accessed today, the collective of judges considered that the statements that Leonor Cipriano produced during the trial sessions contained “flagrant and relevant contradictions”, and therefore determined that a certificate should be extracted, to which a copy of the tape recordings was added.

In the verdict, it is mentioned that the mother of the child that disappeared on the 12th of September 2004, in the village of Figueira, in Portimão, “was offered (…) an extensive opportunity to reveal the truth” during the trial sessions at the Court of Faro, but “essentially seized the opportunity to lie”.

“Leonor Cipriano lied about the manner in which she was beaten, about the identification of the persons that beat her, about the time and the manner how she revealed that she had been beaten, in short, she lied about every essential aspect of the statements that she gave”, the verdict stresses.

Underlining that Leonor Cipriano presented “no plausible reason whatsoever to have done so”, the collective of three judges, presided by Henrique Pavão, considered that Joana’s mother revealed “major contradictions” and that she presented “very different versions for one and the same fact”.

But all that is irrelevant to Amaral's crime. She would have nothing to do with the evidence that was used to prove Amaral lied.  How could she know what he had put in a report?    The court ruled that (regardless of who had tortured her ) - she HAD been tortured in that police station, and Amaral was found guilty of helping to cover that up by submitting a false report about the incident.     

Although there may have been a question over the identity of the men who tortured her, there was no question at all about the identity of the person who wrote the erroneous report - i.e. Goncalo Amaral. 



 

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 11, 2013, 12:05:51 PM
But all that is irrelevant to Amaral's crime. She would have nothing to do with the evidence that was used to prove Amaral lied.  How could she know what he had put in a report?    The court ruled that (regardless of who had tortured her ) - she HAD been tortured in that police station, and Amaral was found guilty of helping to cover that up by submitting a false report about the incident.     

Although there may have been a question over the identity of the men who tortured her, there was no question at all about the identity of the person who wrote the erroneous report - i.e. Goncalo Amaral. 



 
It would certainly be more profitable for Leonor C. to be supported in a concrete way by so well informed posters.
But it seems the purpose here is only to demonize Mr Amaral in order to sanctify Madeleine's parents.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2013, 12:18:51 PM

Some of us actually care about what was done to Leonor Cipriano.  Torture is a disgrace in a modern day society of any nation.
If Goncalo Amaral had not written his abusive and lying book none of us would have known anything about The Ciprianos or what was done to them.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 12:22:15 PM
It would certainly be more profitable for Leonor C. to be supported in a concrete way by so well informed posters.
But it seems the purpose here is only to demonize Mr Amaral in order to sanctify Madeleine's parents.

Not at all Anne.   The claim is being made - as I understand it, that Leonor's conviction for perjury should automatically have cleared Amaral of his conviction for perjury.   I disagree and I have given my reasons why.

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2013, 12:24:27 PM
And you don't suppose that in this country if the lead prosecution witness had been convicted of perjury while testifying in the very same case Amaral's conviction would have been swiftly overturned ?

Good grief!

In Britain, anyone in prison judicially proven to have been beaten in police custody, and to have made a "confession" extorted by that beating, would be released forthwith, and paid massive amounts of compensation ...

ETA:

And the conviction quashed ...
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: xtina on June 11, 2013, 12:40:42 PM
This woman is evil. She took an innocent child's life. She together with another, TORTURED and murdered her own child there can be no sympathy for s..m like Cipriano.

That said, sadly on some sites she is being supported by the very same people who support the McCann family!

Why does that not surprise me?

Do we really think these people would support Cipriano were it not for their idols the McCanns?

What goes around comes around and quite simply the plan to use Cipriano to target others failed!

People lie when they have something to hide, when they have reason to, generally to save their own sorry skins, and in both cases there are liars coming out the walls, all with something to hide and conceal - the truth of matters!

It is time our children, the young and innocent are not cast aside, forgotten so as to protect the wrongdoers, those who harm them!

The name Cipriano and McCann will be forever linked, they now cannot be separated, and it is of their own doing.

The public not being able to think of one without the other - and not for the reasons the supporters would have wished (though how in hell they could support someone like Cipriano is beyond the understanding of decent people.)

The case of the McCanns missing daughter Madeleine having echoes of that of little Joana Cipriano, their names, the cases now entwined, associated with: missing/murdered/tortured/abused/abandoned children - dishonesty and lies.

Not the link the supporters had hoped for but when we aim to deceive in an effort to make others believe an untruth, it is not always what we achieve - and in this case it has come back to bite some bottoms.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2013, 12:42:55 PM
This woman is evil.

What description would you reserve for the police officers who beat her?

Angels?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 12:46:28 PM
Chilling to see that there are people out there who still agree with the use of torture of suspects in custody by police.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 11, 2013, 01:01:19 PM
Not at all Anne.   The claim is being made - as I understand it, that Leonor's conviction for perjury should automatically have cleared Amaral of his conviction for perjury.   I disagree and I have given my reasons why.
What is claimed is to put things into perspective. Lying ? What for, how, to whom, from where, sincerely or not ? All this has to be contemplated. To-day judges are far more subtle than in the Middle Age. Many very interesting books have been written on this subject. Does Magalhães e Menezes say the TP9 lied ? No, he spoke of "untruths", a short way to indicate things are more complex than truth vs lie.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 01:44:51 PM
Good grief!

In Britain, anyone in prison judicially proven to have been beaten in police custody, and to have made a "confession" extorted by that beating, would be released forthwith, and paid massive amounts of compensation ...

ETA:

And the conviction quashed ...

Exactly - I cannot believe Leonor Cipriano is still in prison.  Although the fact that she was actually punished for not being able to correctly identify her torturers is just as shocking.  What about the mitigating circumstances?   Like for instance she was having difficulty focussing at the time probably due to the blood running into her swollen eyes!   

Sheesh!



Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 01:47:08 PM
That's the question, you'd think that once the court had established that torture had taken place, the previous verdict would have been declared unsafe & a retrial, at the very least, ordered. But no, that didn't happen.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2013, 01:51:15 PM

This really was a shocking miscarriage of justice.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: xtina on June 11, 2013, 01:54:21 PM
This woman is evil.

What description would you reserve for the police officers who beat her?

Angels?


What i think of them doesn't come into it where I'm concerned. OK

My point is evil people do not deserve sympathy.

My guess is...its because of who the police officers are, you have an interest IMO other wise you wouldn't care less about the case 
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 01:56:14 PM
That's the question, you'd think that once the court had established that torture had taken place, the previous verdict would have been declared unsafe & a retrial, at the very least, ordered. But no, that didn't happen.

And why no massive investigation into WHO did torture her at a police station?  Surely there must have been some kind of an enquiry? -  but if there was I haven't heard anything about it.    If anyone does know I would appreciate a link.

In the UK I believe they would have brought in Police Officers from another Force to investigate.

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 01:59:51 PM

What i think of them doesn't come into it where I'm concerned. OK

My point is evil people do not deserve sympathy.

My guess is...its because of who the police officers are, you have an interest IMO other wise you wouldn't care less about the case

So you don't think men who torture a defenceless woman are evil?   


Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2013, 02:00:40 PM
Exactly - I cannot believe Leonor Cipriano is still in prison.  Although the fact that she was actually punished for not being able to correctly identify her torturers is just as shocking.  What about the mitigating circumstances?   Like for instance she was having difficulty focussing at the time probably due to the blood running into her swollen eyes!   

Sheesh!

And the bag over her head, Benice.

I know from personal experience that although (for now) Leonor has her sight, she may not get away with it long term.

As a lad, walking home from school, I was struck in the eye by a stone thrown by another boy and badly bloodied.  I made an (apparently) full recovery.

But in recent years, a routine eye test detected incipient and (as yet) a-symptomatic macular degeneration in that eye, most likely caused (several experts I've discussed it with agree) by that trauma. 

Leonor's time may similarly come.

I fervently hope not, obviously.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2013, 02:11:01 PM
Some of us actually care about what was done to Leonor Cipriano.  Torture is a disgrace in a modern day society of any nation.
If Goncalo Amaral had not written his abusive and lying book none of us would have known anything about The Ciprianos or what was done to them.

No one can excuse torture.

However, you like others are ignoring the fact that this woman has been convicted of the murder of her own daughter, and that's for whom you should have the sympathy for, not her mother.

As to her 'torture', you do not know who beat her up, that is speculation.

Likewise, how do you know it wasn't her fellow prisoners who 'beat' her up ?77

There is a history of prisoners who beat up fellow inmates who have committed 'certain' crimes, and this has happened in the UK as well.

All I see in this article is the continuing attacks on Amaral, who had the temerity to suggest that MADELEINE'S PARENTS HID UP THE REAL TRUTH AS REGARDS HER DISAPPEARANCE.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: xtina on June 11, 2013, 02:14:41 PM
So you don't think men who torture a defenceless woman are evil?


Do you know they did ?

Do you know who they are ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 02:15:14 PM
And the bag over her head, Benice.

I know from personal experience that although (for now) Leonor has her sight, she may not get away with it long term.

As a lad, walking home from school, I was struck in the eye by a stone thrown by another boy and badly bloodied.  I made an (apparently) full recovery.

But in recent years, a routine eye test detected incipient and (as yet) a-symptomatic macular degeneration in that eye, most likely caused (several experts I've discussed it with agree) by that trauma. 

Leonor's time may similarly come.

I fervently hope not, obviously.

Yes, I understand it's not uncommon for injuries from years ago to cause problems in later life.   My brother can relate a similar instance - except that involved the cross bar of his bike when he was a youngster and a completely different part of his body!!     I won't go into the details but the specialist did say that his present problem was probably as a result of that very old injury which had apparently healed perfectly at the time.

I share your hope for Leonor's sight and for yours too - if there is a danger of losing your sight,


Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 02:21:00 PM
That the torture took place is not under question, it has been established by a court of law, not once but twice. It has also been established that the torture took place INSIDE the police station. That fact in itself should have been enough for a judge to order a re-trial, but sadly, for Portuguese justice, it did not.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 02:23:19 PM

Do you know they did ?

Do you know who they are ?

Well someone did - that was proved in a court of law.

What does it matter who they are?   Or are you saying that if it was policemen torturing a defenceless woman then that makes it acceptable.?   As far as I'm concerned that makes their actions even more evil.

What exactly is your take on this Xtina - would you care to clarify.



Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2013, 02:25:06 PM
Sadly, inexplicably.

Still more inexplicable is that her sentence was actually increased because she did not get her story completely straight while being tortured with a bag over her head ....
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2013, 02:25:23 PM
That the torture took place is not under question, it has been established by a court of law, not once but twice. It has also been established that the torture took place INSIDE the police station. That fact in itself should have been enough for a judge to order a re-trial, but sadly, for Portuguese justice, it did not.

It has also been established in a court of law this woman murdered her own daughter.

So do you care what happened to her ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 02:48:23 PM
Sadly, inexplicably.

Still more inexplicable is that her sentence was actually increased because she did not get her story completely straight while being tortured with a bag over her head ....

They were obviously following the law to the letter, not looking at the circumstances. Wonder if the court were shown any research on what torture actually does to the mind of the person being tortured? Confusion, inability to estimate time etc are all effects of torture.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2013, 02:54:22 PM
It has also been established in a court of law this woman murdered her own daughter.

So do you care what happened to her ?

But based on what concrete evidence?

Yes, I do care.

If this woman is guilty then she's where she should be. The same goes for the brother.

If she's not and has been manipulated by those involved in the legal process, then, no, she shouldn't be there. And her child might still be alive somewhere. Or perhaps she was murdered by some nutcase who is still out there.


Oddly enough, the name of this forum is miscarriageofjustice.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 03:29:49 PM
But based on what concrete evidence?

Yes, I do care.

If this woman is guilty then she's where she should be. The same goes for the brother.

If she's not and has been manipulated by those involved in the legal process, then, no, she shouldn't be there. And her child might still be alive somewhere. Or perhaps she was murdered by some nutcase who is still out there.


Oddly enough, the name of this forum is miscarriageofjustice.

Yes, there are certainly a lot of question marks with regard to the evidence in that case, perhaps that's worth exploring further?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2013, 03:32:55 PM
Yes, there are certainly a lot of question marks with regard to the evidence in that case, perhaps that's worth exploring further?

What Evidence?  There doesn't seem to be any.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 03:40:51 PM
What Evidence?  There doesn't seem to be any.

No, that's what I meant, there is hardly any.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2013, 03:52:42 PM
No, that's what I meant, there is hardly any.

I know.  No saw or knife for chopping up the body.  No DNA.  None of Joana's blood identified.  No bones in the pig pen.  And no motive.  The Court threw out the "Incest" malarky.  And even the neighbours don't believe that they killed Joana.
So what did they get convicted on?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2013, 03:58:39 PM
Well, well ....

Inspectors withdraw complaint against Joana’s mother
Updated: 09-Dec-2005


• Leonor Cipriano

INSPECTORS INVOLVED in the investigation of the Joana case have chosen to withdraw their defamation of character complaint against Leonor Cipriano, who accused them of physical assault during interrogation. The news was announced at the weekend by the policemen’s lawyer, António Colaço.

Last week, the policemen were the subject of an identification parade but were not recognised by the alleged victim, Leonor Cipriano. The honesty displayed by Leonor at the identity parade was one of the reasons given by the Associação Sindical dos Funcionários da Investigação Criminal (ASFIC), the union for crime investigation officers, for the withdrawal of the complaint. Leonor confirmed two of the policemen in the parade had interviewed her but had not assaulted her, and stated that she did not recognise the other two.

However, the president of ASFIC, Carlos Anjos, criticised the Departamento de Investigação e Acção Penal (DIAP), the authority in charge of the enquiry, for the way the case has been handled, as the inspectors were always treated as defendants and not as plaintiffs.

António Colaço also informed the DIAP that the complaints against weekly newspaper Expresso and two journalists were also retracted.


Are women who murder their own children habitually honest?

http://www.algarveresident.com/10797-4268/algarve/inspectors-withdraw-complaint-against-joanas-mother
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 04:01:15 PM

I know.  No saw or knife for chopping up the body.  No DNA.  None of Joana's blood identified.  No bones in the pig pen.  And no motive.  The Court threw out the "Incest" malarky.  And even the neighbours don't believe that they killed Joana.
So what did they get convicted on?

Oh didn't cha know?  A confession tortured out of her and Joao

... and the witness statement beaten out of Leandro and rescinded as soon as possible afterwards.  Amaral is reputed to have beaten him up, but it is yet to be tested in Court.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 04:02:37 PM
BUMPED

Well, well ....

Inspectors withdraw complaint against Joana’s mother
Updated: 09-Dec-2005


• Leonor Cipriano

INSPECTORS INVOLVED in the investigation of the Joana case have chosen to withdraw their defamation of character complaint against Leonor Cipriano, who accused them of physical assault during interrogation. The news was announced at the weekend by the policemen’s lawyer, António Colaço.

Last week, the policemen were the subject of an identification parade but were not recognised by the alleged victim, Leonor Cipriano. The honesty displayed by Leonor at the identity parade was one of the reasons given by the Associação Sindical dos Funcionários da Investigação Criminal (ASFIC), the union for crime investigation officers, for the withdrawal of the complaint. Leonor confirmed two of the policemen in the parade had interviewed her but had not assaulted her, and stated that she did not recognise the other two.

However, the president of ASFIC, Carlos Anjos, criticised the Departamento de Investigação e Acção Penal (DIAP), the authority in charge of the enquiry, for the way the case has been handled, as the inspectors were always treated as defendants and not as plaintiffs.

António Colaço also informed the DIAP that the complaints against weekly newspaper Expresso and two journalists were also retracted.


Are women who murder their own children habitually honest?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 04:10:41 PM
http://www.algarveresident.com/10797-4268/algarve/inspectors-withdraw-complaint-against-joanas-mother
 
 
Inspectors withdraw complaint against Joana’s mother Updated: 09-Dec-2005

 
Leonor Cipriano 

INSPECTORS INVOLVED in the investigation of the Joana case have chosen to withdraw their defamation of character complaint against Leonor Cipriano, who accused them of physical assault during interrogation. The news was announced at the weekend by the policemen’s lawyer, António Colaço. (http://www.algarveresident.com/portugalresident/pix/10797_1.jpg)

Last week, the policemen were the subject of an identification parade but were not recognised by the alleged victim, Leonor Cipriano. The honesty displayed by Leonor at the identity parade was one of the reasons given by the Associação Sindical dos Funcionários da Investigação Criminal (ASFIC), the union for crime investigation officers, for the withdrawal of the complaint. Leonor confirmed two of the policemen in the parade had interviewed her but had not assaulted her, and stated that she did not recognise the other two.

However, the president of ASFIC, Carlos Anjos, criticised the Departamento de Investigação e Acção Penal (DIAP), the authority in charge of the enquiry, for the way the case has been handled, as the inspectors were always treated as defendants and not as plaintiffs.

António Colaço also informed the DIAP that the complaints against weekly newspaper Expresso and two journalists were also retracted.
 
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 04:18:14 PM
Not only did the PJ claim that Joanas body was fed, piece by piece, to their pigs, but also alternatively that Joao got rid of the body by carrying the pieces of the body around in a carrier bag to dispose of them

Seems he was seen with a carrier, so it must have been, mustn't it ?

Yeah ... Right !

Good stuff to blacken Leonors and Joaos names with ... Eh?




And brilliant stuff to sell a best seller
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 04:25:08 PM
Needs to be up in lights!

Quote from: Eleanor on Today at 03:52:42 PM
I know.  No saw or knife for chopping up the body.  No DNA.  None of Joana's blood identified.  No bones in the pig pen.  And no motive.  The Court threw out the "Incest" malarky.  And even the neighbours don't believe that they killed Joana.
So what did they get convicted on?


 8@??)(
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 04:36:36 PM
ferryman
Quote
Well, well ....

Inspectors withdraw complaint against Joana’s mother
Updated: 09-Dec-2005


• Leonor Cipriano

INSPECTORS INVOLVED in the investigation of the Joana case have chosen to withdraw their defamation of character complaint against Leonor Cipriano, who accused them of physical assault during interrogation. The news was announced at the weekend by the policemen’s lawyer, António Colaço.


Last week, the policemen were the subject of an identification parade but were not recognised by the alleged victim, Leonor Cipriano. The honesty displayed by Leonor at the identity parade was one of the reasons given by the Associação Sindical dos Funcionários da Investigação Criminal (ASFIC), the union for crime investigation officers, for the withdrawal of the complaint. Leonor confirmed two of the policemen in the parade had interviewed her but had not assaulted her, and stated that she did not recognise the other two.

However, the president of ASFIC, Carlos Anjos, criticised the Departamento de Investigação e Acção Penal (DIAP), the authority in charge of the enquiry, for the way the case has been handled, as the inspectors were always treated as defendants and not as plaintiffs.

António Colaço also informed the DIAP that the complaints against weekly newspaper Expresso and two journalists were also retracted.

Says it all, yet a mysterious charge was brought against Leonor, which found her guilty.  A case that was held behind closed doors ... at Faro Court which has judged for the PJ in other "seedy, corrupt cases"  ... or so they seem.  Michael Cook was convicted there against all the evidence, for instance


To me it seems that Leonors latest conviction is all part of Amarals ACE.  Try and clear his name before he goes to Court v The Mccanns.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2013, 04:37:27 PM
It is simply quite staggering that some people will support a convicted murderer and proven liar.

WHY ?

That's easily answered.

To attack Amaral and the Portuguese judicial system.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 04:44:42 PM
Stephen.  Just what i would expect from you

Ignore the torture.
Ignore the lack of evidence
Ignore the propaganda put out against Leonor and Joao
Ignore the fact that the only "witness" had his witness statement beaten out of him ... according to allegations
... and rescinded it the moment he had the chance




You would do very well in certain branches of the PT Judiciary, Stephen
.
Thank God that there are some Judges who are thinking and honest, like the Judge who protested about the judgement against Leonor and Joao, ..... and refused to put his name to the Guilty verdict
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: xtina on June 11, 2013, 04:49:13 PM
tHE MOTHER FROM HELL

True justice for this woman should have been to serve her original 32 years, I doubt shes ever had a single moment of remorse about the murder of her own child but I bet she's had more than a moment of remorse when she realised that she'd been used by Aragão Correia & friends! and landed herself 7 extra months imprisonment.

The way I see it, Cipriano was used by a far more clever and crafty liar than she is.

You can bet your life Correia won't have lost any sleep over her recent conviction in far off Brasil.



This news  made all the major papers in Portugal but it wont see the light of day in the UK, any mention of the tangled web of underhand methods with connections that lead right to the McCann's door are deemed NOT to be in the UK publics interest to know.

Whoever believes that load of bull can think again, and don't tell me that the UK's crime correspondents are happy sitting on information that goes no further than the editors desk.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2013, 04:52:19 PM
But  the Media did a good job on The Ciprianos, Sadie, by leaking stuff obtained from The PJ, as they tried to do on The McCanns.
But at least one of The Judges refused to find them guilty.  Unfortunately he was in the minority.  Luz told me that in one of her more reasonable moments.

The Cipriano Case itself, has nothing much to do with The McCanns, beyond Amaral and his desperate attempt to get himself out of trouble.
My concern in this Case is entirely for Leonor and Joao Cipriano, and has nothing to do with The McCanns.  It is simply a Miscarriage of Justice, which concerns me greatly.  In fact the whole judicial System in Portugal worries me, as it appears to worry Amnesty International.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2013, 04:59:00 PM
The Cipriano Case itself, has nothing much to do with The McCanns,  ...

The key similarities can be summarised in two words:

Amaral and fridge

We are told Amaral was still working on identifying which fridge the McCanns stored Madeleine's body in when he was outrageously pulled from the case ...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 05:03:20 PM
But  the Media did a good job on The Ciprianos, Sadie, by leaking stuff obtained from The PJ, as they tried to do on The McCanns.
But at least one of The Judges refused to find them guilty.  Unfortunately he was in the minority.  Luz told me that in one of her more reasonable moments.

The Cipriano Case itself, has nothing much to do with The McCanns, beyond Amaral and his desperate attempt to get himself out of trouble.
My concern in this Case is entirely for Leonor and Joao Cipriano, and has nothing to do with The McCanns.  It is simply a Miscarriage of Justice, which concerns me greatly.  In fact the whole judicial System in Portugal worries me, as it appears to worry Amnesty International.

 8@??)( I couldn't agree more Eleanor

But this case and the Michael Cook case and the Virgolino Borges case (in which Tavares de Almeira was found guilty of torture), do illustrate what might have happened to Kate, had she answered those entrapment questions ... and had they not had the eyes of the world on them
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2013, 05:09:11 PM
The Cipriano Case itself, has nothing much to do with The McCanns,  ...

The key similarities can be summarised in two words:

Amaral and fridge

We are told Amaral was still working on identifying which fridge the McCanns stored Madeleine's body in when he was outrageously pulled from the case ...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

There are some very worrying similarities in Amaral's Theses.  But I put that down to lack of imagination and the fact that it worked the first time. 
And there can't be too many ways of disposing of a child's body with other people watching.  So sticking to the tried and tested could seem like a good idea.

What is even more worrying is that two little girls disappeared without trace in the same area.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 05:20:45 PM
The Cipriano Case itself, has nothing much to do with The McCanns,  ...

The key similarities can be summarised in two words:

Amaral and fridge

We are told Amaral was still working on identifying which fridge the McCanns stored Madeleine's body in when he was outrageously pulled from the case ...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

& rumors of questionable practices to whip up animosity. In Cipriano case - incest. In McCann case they spread rumors of swinging instead.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 05:24:15 PM
There are some very worrying similarities in Amaral's Theses.  But I put that down to lack of imagination and the fact that it worked the first time. 
And there can't be too many ways of disposing of a child's body with other people watching.  So sticking to the tried and tested could seem like a good idea.

What is even more worrying is that two little girls disappeared without trace in the same area.
additionally:
Books written about them.  Much money made
Disinformation spread via leaks
Salacious sex exploits "claimed" against the alleged perpetrators with absolutely no indicators ... or proof
In each case, the woman picked on as perp.  usually the easiest target
Similar sets of officers on the case, with Guilhermino Ferreira da Encarnação, National Director of PJ in Faro in overall charge.  Goncalo Amaral second in command

And two little girls vanishing in less than 3 years at a distance of only 7 miles apart + another, Carolina Santos who was temporarily abducted until saved

Too many similarities;
The cases are connected.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2013, 05:35:47 PM
additionally:
Books written about them.  Much money made
Disinformation spread via leaks
Salacious sex exploits "claimed" against the alleged perpetrators with absolutely no indicators ... or proof
In each case, the woman picked on as perp.  usually the easiest target
Similar sets of officers on the case, with Guilhermino Ferreira da Encarnação, National Director of PJ in Faro in overall charge.  Goncalo Amaral second in command

And two little girls vanishing in less than 3 years at a distance of only 7 miles apart + another, Carolina Santos who was temporarily abducted until saved

The cases are connected.

But the injustices are separate matters.  Separate families, separate people, two of whom are still in prison after what is, to say the least, a very unsafe conviction.

The McCanns don't much need my help anymore, apart from searching for Madeleine.  But Leonor and Joao do need my help, and the help of others.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 05:37:53 PM
& rumors of questionable practices to whip up animosity. In Cipriano case - incest. In McCann case they spread rumors of swinging instead.

You beat me to it Mrs. B.  I was just about to type exactly the same sentiments.  Turning the public against the 'suspects' seems to be a deliberate tactic - so that no matter what methods the police employed to get them to court and convicted - there would be no complaints from an enraged public.   






Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 05:46:09 PM
But the injustices are separate matters.  Separate families, separate people, two of whom are still in prison after what is, to say the least, a very unsafe conviction.

The McCanns don't much need my help anymore, apart from searching for Madeleine.  But Leonor and Joao do need my help, and the help of others.

More than anything they need the help of the European Court of Human Rights, who seem to be taking an awful long time over the matter.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 05:53:26 PM
additionally:
Books written about them.  Much money made
Disinformation spread via leaks
Salacious sex exploits "claimed" against the alleged perpetrators with absolutely no indicators ... or proof
In each case, the woman picked on as perp.  usually the easiest targetSimilar sets of officers on the case, with Guilhermino Ferreira da Encarnação, National Director of PJ in Faro in overall charge.  Goncalo Amaral second in command

And two little girls vanishing in less than 3 years at a distance of only 7 miles apart + another, Carolina Santos who was temporarily abducted until saved

Too many similarities;
The cases are connected.

As a matter of interest, were any Portuguese policeWOMEN ever involved in these cases. Even the Portuguese FLO for the McCanns was a man.  A woman's input could well have made a difference.  Wasn't it a woman - the Doctor? who finally put a spanner in the 'official' works regarding Leonor's injuries.    Just a thought.

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2013, 05:54:52 PM
More than anything they need the help of the European Court of Human Rights, who seem to be taking an awful long time over the matter.

They always do take a long time, Mrs. B.  Too many injustices going on in the world.  But it will help Leonor to know that there are people supporting her, including in Portugal.  The people of Portugal don't all believe that she is guilty.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2013, 06:03:40 PM
As a matter of interest, were any Portuguese policeWOMEN ever involved in these cases. Even the Portuguese FLO for the McCanns was a man.  A woman's input could well have made a difference.  Wasn't it a woman - the Doctor? who finally put a spanner in the 'official' works regarding Leonor's injuries.    Just a thought.

It was the female governor of the prison Ana (her surname escapes me) who had Leonor examined by a doctor, confirming her injuries.

Our old stalwart Faith actually insists that the prison governer was "in it".

Of course ...

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 06:09:16 PM
It was the female governor of the prison Ana (her surname escapes me) who had Leonor examined by a doctor, confirming her injuries.

Our old stalwart Faith actually insists that the prison governer was "in it".

Of course ...

Ahh thanks for that Ferryman - I knew it was one or the other and picked the wrong one. 
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2013, 06:20:24 PM
Stephen.  Just what i would expect from you

Ignore the torture.
Ignore the lack of evidence
Ignore the propaganda put out against Leonor and Joao
Ignore the fact that the only "witness" had his witness statement beaten out of him ... according to allegations
... and rescinded it the moment he had the chance




You would do very well in certain branches of the PT Judiciary, Stephen
.
Thank God that there are some Judges who are thinking and honest, like the Judge who protested about the judgement against Leonor and Joao, ..... and refused to put his name to the Guilty verdict

The expected reply.

You condemn the Portuguese judicial system when it suits you, merely in this case because you want to damage Amaral even further.The truth being of course, he was a bit player in the Mccann case, and it was the PJ as a whole who believed the Mccanns hid the fate of Madeleine.

However, you support the Portuguese system in the conviction of Amaral, and there lies your rank hypocrisy.

Meanwhile like it or not, Cipriano is a convicted child killer and you SUPPORT HER.

That says everything.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on June 11, 2013, 06:35:19 PM
The thought of a group of men beating a woman is appalling ...  bunch of sadistic thugs

We should be careful, though,  not to make the unsupportable leap that because a confession was  'beaten'  out of her that is was, necessarily,  untrue

I am sure that  evidence other than the confessions was put to the jury   ( is it true, for instance,  that the mother did not report her eight year old daughter as missing for two days ?  ...  and that she excused blood being found by saying she had beaten her daughter whose nose had subsequently bled ?  )

The little I have looked up on the net  about the case does not make for comfortable reading all round,  and it certainly does not lead me into wanting to  'champion'  this woman,  who,  we must accept,  really may  have been as brutal to her own child as the men at who's hand she suffered
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 06:37:20 PM
The intended reply Stephen

Time you looked at this case logically ... and thought about it a bit

But then are logic and thinking your strengths? ... I ask myself



However hard I try. I cannot remove the memory of you on big footie forum repeatedly demanding ,  "How did Leonor know she was kneeling on glass ash trays"@)(++(*

I dont think that logic and thought are your strongest points, do you Stephen?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 06:39:40 PM
The thought of a group of men beating a woman is appalling ...  bunch of sadistic thugs

We should be careful, though,  not to make the unsupportable leap that because a confession was  'beaten'  out of her that is was, necessarily,  untrue

I am sure that  evidence other than the confessions was put to the jury   ( is it true, for instance,  that the mother did not report her eight year old daughter as missing for two days ?  ...  and that she excused blood being found by saying she had beaten her daughter whose nose had subsequently bled ?  )

The little I have looked up on the net  about the case does not make for comfortable reading all round,  and it certainly does not lead me into wanting to  'champion'  this woman,  who,  we must accept,  really may  have been as brutal to her own child as the men at who's hand she suffered

could you please support your words Icabod.  THankyou
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 06:44:28 PM
The expected reply.

You condemn the Portuguese judicial system when it suits you, merely in this case because you want to damage Amaral even further.The truth being of course, he was a bit player in the Mccann case, and it was the PJ as a whole who believed the Mccanns hid the fate of Madeleine.

However, you support the Portuguese system in the conviction of Amaral, and there lies your rank hypocrisy.

Meanwhile like it or not, Cipriano is a convicted child killer and you SUPPORT HER.

That says everything.

From what I can see Amaral was convicted on irrefutable evidence in the form of his own paperwork
whereas Leonor was convicted on the strength of a confession obtained by torture and very little else. 

Can you provide the concrete evidence which was used to convict her?  I'm quite happy to change my mind if the evidence proves her guilt.


Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on June 11, 2013, 06:45:30 PM
could you please support your words Icabod.  THankyou

Well I can support the fact that none of us can know whether or not  the confession beaten out of this woman was actually the truth ...  because that is  a fact

It may be the case that you are supporting a child murderer  ...  do you accept that ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 11, 2013, 06:47:00 PM
Good grief!

In Britain, anyone in prison judicially proven to have been beaten in police custody, and to have made a "confession" extorted by that beating, would be released forthwith, and paid massive amounts of compensation ...

ETA:

And the conviction quashed ...

It's the chicken and the egg again. Can we believe she was beaten by the PJ rather than her fellow prisoners if she now has a conviction for perjuring herself with regard to those very injuries ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 06:50:11 PM
Facts to bear in mind, both Leonor Cipriano & Amaral has been found guilty to their respective crimes in courts of justice in Portugal. Amaral was convicted for lying to the court, in view of that, it is my opinion that ALL his cases, not only the Cipriano case, should have been examined by relevant authorities.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 06:53:01 PM
The thought of a group of men beating a woman is appalling ...  bunch of sadistic thugs

We should be careful, though,  not to make the unsupportable leap that because a confession was  'beaten'  out of her that is was, necessarily,  untrue

I am sure that  evidence other than the confessions was put to the jury  ( is it true, for instance,  that the mother did not report her eight year old daughter as missing for two days ?  ...  and that she excused blood being found by saying she had beaten her daughter whose nose had subsequently bled ?  )

The little I have looked up on the net  about the case does not make for comfortable reading all round,  and it certainly does not lead me into wanting to  'champion'  this woman,  who,  we must accept,  really may  have been as brutal to her own child as the men at who's hand she suffered

I remember reading that Icab.   But I also remember reading that she had reported her daughter missing to the GNR and it was the GNR who took two days before reporting the case to the PJ.     However, I can't vouch for the veracity of that.

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 06:55:46 PM
Well I can support the fact that none of us can know whether or not  the confession beaten out of this woman was actually the truth ...  because that is  a fact

It may be the case that you are supporting a child murderer  ...  do you accept that ?
So it is a myth? about the two days etc.?

No I do not accept that I am supporting a child murder.  NO EVIDENCE at all.

Leonor WAS tortured.  No doubt about that.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 06:58:31 PM
Amaral testified in court that Cipriano sustained her injuries AT the police station, from a fall down the stairs. The court obviously did not believe the story about the stairs, but they did believe he was correct about the place WHERE the it happened, i.e. the police station in Portimao. Are you now claiming Amaral LIED about that too?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 11, 2013, 06:59:41 PM
So it is a myth? about the two days etc.?

No I do not accept that I am supporting a child murder.  NO EVIDENCE at all.

Leonor WAS tortured.  No doubt about that.

Well you are supporting a child murderer sadie and not just any child, her own child.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 07:01:53 PM
It's the chicken and the egg again. Can we believe she was beaten by the PJ rather than her fellow prisoners if she now has a conviction for perjuring herself with regard to those very injuries ?

But if she was beaten by fellow prisoners - I presume whilst in jail  - why would the PJ officers claim she had fallen down steps at their police station in a suicide attempt?   That makes no sense.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 07:12:31 PM
No, what we ARE supporting is a fundamental human right NOT to be tortured.

Article 3 – ECHR. Prohibition of torture

No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

NB There are NO exceptions to this right.

As a court has determined that Cipriano WAS subjected to Torture, the verdict against her is unsafe & should warrant a retrial.

Should another court come to the same conclusion as the previous one, no problem at all.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 11, 2013, 07:12:46 PM
This is the supreme court ruling in the Lenora Cipriano case,  including links to the original portuguese

part 1
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html

Part 2
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_13.html

part 3
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html

part 4
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_15.html
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 11, 2013, 07:14:06 PM
But if she was beaten by fellow prisoners - I presume whilst in jail  - why would the PJ officers claim she had fallen down steps at their police station in a suicide attempt?   That makes no sense.

When Cipriano was first taken to prison she showed signs of slight bruising, a report by a warder confirms this, probably sustained when the officers tried to manhandle her during her suicide attempt. It is only later, after she had sent some time within the prison population that the more severe alleged bruising appeared.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 07:15:37 PM
Rubbish. That is not what the court determined at all.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on June 11, 2013, 07:22:27 PM
No, what we ARE supporting is a fundamental human right NOT to be tortured.



As a court has determined that Cipriano WAS subjected to Torture, the verdict against her is unsafe & should warrant a retrial.

Should another court come to the same conclusion as the previous one, no problem at all.

I wouldn't  disagree with any of that

I think it is important to acknowledge, though,  that it  may  be a child murderer's human rights that are being defended here
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 07:34:00 PM
Doesn't matter. Art 3 comes under "There are no exceptions or limitations on this right."

The crime the person is accused for is IRRELEVANT in reference to the ECHR issue.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2013, 07:38:43 PM
This is the supreme court ruling in the Lenora Cipriano case,  including links to the original portuguese

part 1
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html

Part 2
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_13.html

part 3
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html

part 4
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_15.html

For the record, you've posted something useful.

Posted by Astro, translated by Astro and (for the record) I am a (genuine) fan of the translations of Astro, long have been.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on June 11, 2013, 07:40:28 PM
Doesn't matter. Art 3 comes under "There are no exceptions or limitations on this right."

The crime the person is accused for is IRRELEVANT in reference to the ECHR issue.

I am not disagreeing

I am just pointing out that,  in this case,  it may be the human rights of a woman who beat her little girl  to death that are being defended

I think it is important to be clear about that   
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 07:46:51 PM
IMO it's irrelevant, as NOBODY, regardless of the crime committed, should be tortured.

ETA To uphold the principles of ECHR is not "defending" criminals, it's defending the RIGHTS we ALL are entitled to.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2013, 08:04:21 PM
The intended reply Stephen

Time you looked at this case logically ... and thought about it a bit

But then are logic and thinking your strengths? ... I ask myself



However hard I try. I cannot remove the memory of you on big footie forum repeatedly demanding ,  "How did Leonor know she was kneeling on glass ash trays"@)(++(*

I dont think that logic and thought are your strongest points, do you Stephen?


Your answer is not only illogical, it is verging on hysterical.

WHERE HAVE I REFERRED TO GLASS ASH TRAYS ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 11, 2013, 08:08:45 PM
Mental torture exists too.
I think it's important to be aware of that.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 08:19:48 PM
Mental torture exists too.
I think it's important to be aware of that.

Of course it does, Anne, & it is equally reprehensible.  I think that comes under the "inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment" of Art 3.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 10:44:28 PM
Well you are supporting a child murderer sadie and not just any child, her own child.

faithlilly

you say thet she is a child murderer. 

The law is an Ass.  Shw was convicted on NO EVIDENCE and it is a huge black mark against Portugal that this extremely unsafe conviction has been allowed to stand

Lets consider some of the facts, next post
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 11, 2013, 10:47:22 PM
faithlilly

you say thet she is a child murderer. 

The law is an Ass.  Shw was convicted on NO EVIDENCE and it is a huge black mark against Portugal that this extremely unsafe conviction has been allowed to stand

Lets consider some of the facts, next post

The evidence for the conviction has been posted in a previous post with links, at 7.12, there is no way anyone is convicted with NO evidence as you suggest,  thats a  ridiculous  thing to say at best, leave youto read through  it all, nite now

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 11:00:45 PM
Remember how a big black limosine was seen and noted cruising around Figuiera?  THe car of an Elite?

Remember the little motorcaravan that had been in Figueira for a day or two?  Remember how the locals connected the two, especially the motorcaravan with Joanas disappearance?.. cos it vanished at the time she disappeared.

And finally do you remember the little motorcaravan being found abandoned about 7 miles away in PdL?



Now think about it.  How many people do you know who would abandon a motorcaravan?  No mention anywhere that it had been stolen, or thatit had broken down ... just abandoned. 

So what could cause someone to abandon such a desirable thing as a  motorcaravan ? ... even if it was old, many peeps would give their eye teeth for such a thing.

See what I am getting at.


The black limousine was most probably owned by the Elite who paid for the abduction.  He sussed out who he wanted and the caravan driver did the dirty work.



It is only a theory for Stephen to laugh at, as is his way.
But it is a damned sight more likely than what has been blamed on Leonor and Joao.

Editted to add:  

As is so often the case webpages that were there earlier on have been whooshed. After much googling, I found this report by TIMES NEWS ON LINE reporter ALEX WATTS in two different places. 

One will do  Relevant section shown

Quote
http://amaralfiction2.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/joana-cipriano-goncalo-amarals.html

snipped/
 Joana's relatives told Sky News Online the pair are innocent and believe whoever took the girl is also behind Madeleine's disappearance, seven miles away in Praia da Luz. The family, who do not want to be named, said: "This sort of thing doesn't happen in Portugal - child abductions are very rare. Whoever took Joana took Madeleine too, the distance is too small. And
the police ignored everything we told them, they just wanted to solve the case quickly. They didn't look at any of the things we told them about." They said the most crucial bit of evidence was a white and brown camper van, parked near Joana's home in the days before she was abducted.
The vehicle, with German number plates, disappeared around the time she vanished. They added: "There was a man living in there, but he hardly left the van. A week later the van was found abandoned in farmland in Praia da Luz. We told the police to investigate it, but they didn't listen to us." She said the man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old
.
[/color]
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 11, 2013, 11:04:17 PM
Oh dear sadie, once again you cant get  away with writing reams of rubbish for all anyone knows without backing any of it up
 8((()*/


Sleep well and learn to back thngs up
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 11:12:02 PM
What a load of codswallop

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html



Quote
aj) the arguidos then decided, conjointly, to cut the minor’s body in order to make it possible to store it in the deep freezer that existed in the living room;

al) to pursue that purpose, the arguidos provided themselves with a knife and a metal-cutting saw that were available inside the house, instruments that were apt to obtain the results that they intended, within approximately 30 minutes;

am) with said instruments, helping each other, the arguidos cut CC’s body, separating the head from the torso and cutting the legs at the knee area;

No body, no proof and yet they dreamed that up ... and in such amazing detail. @)(++(*

It beggars belief


If you believe that Red, you are more naive / dafter than I thought 8(0(*

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on June 11, 2013, 11:23:31 PM
What a load of codswallop

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html



No body, no proof and yet they dreamed that up ... and in such amazing detail. @)(++(*

It beggars belief


If you believe that Red, you are more naive / dafter than I thought 8(0(*

Reading that passage makes you laugh ? !
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 11:45:22 PM
Icabod, the bare faced lying makes me laugh with derision.

Just invented trash ... no truth .. no evidence ... just bare faced lying.

Same as Amarals theory

1)  Joana came back andf found her Mum having sex with her brother.... no proof, just an over active imagination on amaral and cristovaos behalf ... or maybe on Guilermhos (whatever his name is ) behalf.  He is supposed to be dead isn't he?


2)  They killed her .... No proof ...Nothing

3)  They cut her body into pieces and stored it in the fridge ...No forensiic proof ... NONE ... nothing

4)  Then they fed the pieces to their pigs... Bludy L what an imagination these guys have ... NO PROOF



And now we are expected to believe this rubbish which gives a detailed account of how Joana was cut up, with no body and nothing to reference   No evidence.  No evidence that she even came home.


Or alternatively believe that Joao carried the pieces away in a carrier bag.  He was seen carrying a carrier bag after all


Take which ever you pick as the correct version .... Both provided by Amaral and Co.

PT  PJ and  legal system is, at times, an utter farce



What a shambles!
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2013, 11:47:26 PM
Reading that passage makes you laugh ? !

I think there is, maybe, room for a certain amount of derision at the thought processes that led to a 'proved' conclusion. 

For instance, there is reference to tools used to carve up Joana's body.

Evidence of the tools allegedly used was produced in court photographs.  That was it ...
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mr Gray on June 12, 2013, 07:54:48 AM
Icabod, the bare faced lying makes me laugh with derision.

Just invented trash ... no truth .. no evidence ... just bare faced lying.

Same as Amarals theory

1)  Joana came back andf found her Mum having sex with her brother.... no proof, just an over active imagination on amaral and cristovaos behalf ... or maybe on Guilermhos (whatever his name is ) behalf.  He is supposed to be dead isn't he?

There must have been blood and dna everywhere......


2)  They killed her .... No proof ...Nothing

3)  They cut her body into pieces and stored it in the fridge ...No forensiic proof ... NONE ... nothing

4)  Then they fed the pieces to their pigs... Bludy L what an imagination these guys have ... NO PROOF



And now we are expected to believe this rubbish which gives a detailed account of how Joana was cut up, with no body and nothing to reference   No evidence.  No evidence that she even came home.


Or alternatively believe that Joao carried the pieces away in a carrier bag.  He was seen carrying a carrier bag after all


Take which ever you pick as the correct version .... Both provided by Amaral and Co.

PT  PJ and  legal system is, at times, an utter farce



What a shambles!
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 12, 2013, 07:55:14 AM
Remember how a big black limosine was seen and noted cruising around Figuiera?  THe car of an Elite?

Remember the little motorcaravan that had been in Figueira for a day or two?  Remember how the locals connected the two, especially the motorcaravan with Joanas disappearance?.. cos it vanished at the time she disappeared.

And finally do you remember the little motorcaravan being found abandoned about 7 miles away in PdL?



Now think about it.  How many people do you know who would abandon a motorcaravan?  No mention anywhere that it had been stolen, or thatit had broken down ... just abandoned. 

So what could cause someone to abandon such a desirable thing as a  motorcaravan ? ... even if it was old, many peeps would give their eye teeth for such a thing.

See what I am getting at.


The black limousine was most probably owned by the Elite who paid for the abduction.  He sussed out who he wanted and the caravan driver did the dirty work.



It is only a theory for Stephen to laugh at, as is his way.
But it is a damned sight more likely than what has been blamed on Leonor and Joao.

Have you been having a tete a tete  with David Eyke ? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 12, 2013, 08:57:33 AM
I think there is, maybe, room for a certain amount of derision at the thought processes that led to a 'proved' conclusion. 

For instance, there is reference to tools used to carve up Joana's body.

Evidence of the tools allegedly used was produced in court photographs.  That was it ...

And presented as part of the evidence - "she wore a black blouse" - couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that. What kind of EVIDENCE is that???
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 12, 2013, 10:42:26 AM
The court didn't believe the motive (incest) put forward by the PJ, but then without being able to establish any other motive they still found them guilty!!  The mind boggles.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 12, 2013, 11:43:47 AM
And presented as part of the evidence - "she wore a black blouse" - couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that. What kind of EVIDENCE is that???



She made appeals to help find her child, sometimes wearing a black (or dark) blouse and red trousers.


(http://crimedigoeu.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/joana.jpg)

Perhaps she should have organised a photoshoot in white...
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 12, 2013, 11:46:50 AM
Yes, I'm sure Amaral would have been impressed with that, or at least his wife.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Puffin on June 12, 2013, 11:49:20 AM
Yes, I'm sure Amaral would have been impressed with that, or at least his wife.
Hmmm, he does seem to target women, doesn't he?  I won't go any further as I don't like to gossip.     8(0(*
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 12, 2013, 11:57:06 AM

Nothing wrong with the look of that child.  Or any of the photos of Joana that I have seen.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 12, 2013, 12:00:08 PM
Yes, I'm sure Amaral would have been impressed with that, or at least his wife.

Even if she had, certain "media experts" would have twisted the colour of her [Leonor's] clothing in a negative sense.

I'm not criticising the Portuguese people at all: those I know have many fine qualities.

My criticism concerns the irresponsible media in any country and its influence.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 12, 2013, 12:14:48 PM
Trials by media, reprehensible in all circumstances.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 12, 2013, 02:37:45 PM


I'm not criticising the Portuguese people at all: those I know have many fine qualities.

This thread should be sent to tour operators as indicative of why Portugal is a hellish destination.
Better buy sun elsewhere, even if elsewhere is more expensive, put meanness aside and relax !
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 12, 2013, 03:40:07 PM
Odd

More 'evidence' vanishing......in Amarals own words:


GA: Look, a few years ago on the Azores, after a homicide that had taken place years earlier, we managed to locate a vehicle that was already in a junk yard in which a taxi driver had been killed, a taxi driver from Praia da Vitória in the Azores. But we were unlucky, normally the van's back had a carpet but it didn't exist anymore. That carpet didn't exist anymore, so if we had found that carpet it would have been possible to prove that the death had taken place there, so anything is possible.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id139.html
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 12, 2013, 04:36:33 PM
Odd

More 'evidence' vanishing......in Amarals own words:


GA: Look, a few years ago on the Azores, after a homicide that had taken place years earlier, we managed to locate a vehicle that was already in a junk yard in which a taxi driver had been killed, a taxi driver from Praia da Vitória in the Azores. But we were unlucky, normally the van's back had a carpet but it didn't exist anymore. That carpet didn't exist anymore, so if we had found that carpet it would have been possible to prove that the death had taken place there, so anything is possible.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id139.html

So? What is the point of that? The PJ managed after a few years to track down a vehicle in which someone was murdered, but by the time they did someone had removed the carpet, and?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 12, 2013, 05:32:03 PM
A comment about evidence (or lack of it ) from Amaral's book, chaper 3.
 

QUOTE
''Three years before, we had dealt with a similar case, a few kilometres from Praia da Luz.    We had not been informed at the time of that disappearance, and we are convinced that if the investigation could have been started immediately WE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DISCOVER SOME PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.''




Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 12, 2013, 05:33:44 PM
A comment about evidence (or lack of it ) from Amaral's book, chaper 3.
 

QUOTE
''Three years before, we had dealt with a similar case, a few kilometres from Praia da Luz.    We had not been informed at the time of that disappearance, and we are convinced that if the investigation could have been started immediately WE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DISCOVER SOME PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.''

That refers to LC not reporting the disappearance for some time...nothing to do with the previous example of evidence going missing years ago
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 12, 2013, 05:38:55 PM
That refers to LC not reporting the disappearance for some time...nothing to do with the previous example of evidence going missing years ago


IIR correctly Redblossom, Leonor's daughter went out at around 8.00p.m. and was reported missing at 0.45a.m. -less that 5 hours later.    I haven't got time to check that - so am quite happy to be corrected if it's wrong.

It wasn't meant to be anything to do with the previous example.


(back later)
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on June 12, 2013, 05:51:23 PM

IIR correctly Redblossom, Leonor's daughter went out at around 8.00p.m. and was reported missing at 0.45a.m. -less that 5 hours later.    I haven't got time to check that - so am quite happy to be corrected if it's wrong.

It wasn't meant to be anything to do with the previous example.


(back later)

An eight year old not reported missing until quarter to one in the morning !

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 12, 2013, 05:54:00 PM

IIR correctly Redblossom, Leonor's daughter went out at around 8.00p.m. and was reported missing at 0.45a.m. -less that 5 hours later.    I haven't got time to check that - so am quite happy to be corrected if it's wrong.

It wasn't meant to be anything to do with the previous example.


(back later)

OK no problem, and yes Icab, staggering isnt it how any parent would delay reporting an eight year  old missing until small hours of the morning, Im sure one of leonors supporters can explain how its normal

Sadie or eleanor must have an innocent answer, look forward to reading it, be on the lines of mitchells excuses and statement that anything found or not found WILL have an innocent explanation, yeah right
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 12, 2013, 07:30:51 PM
Do Mrs Cipriano's supporters think that since she only confessed under torture there's a big chance that Madeleine's abductor is also Joana's abductor ?
Inspector Amaral would then have just done a copycat investigation ?
Thanks to the media and the diplomats etc., Mr and Mrs McCann escaped physical torture ?
But mental torture ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 12, 2013, 07:38:46 PM
I've seen some c'rap in my time, but referring to the Mccanns 'escaping' physical torture.........................

Who are you trying to kid ?

The Mccanns have got away with neglect that led to the disappearance of Madeleine.

There are people on here who need a reality check.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 12, 2013, 07:41:53 PM
I've seen some c'rap in my time, but referring to the Mccanns 'escaping' physical torture.........................

Who are you trying to kid ?

The Mccanns have got away with neglect that led to the disappearance of Madeleine.

There are people on here who need a reality check.

That was a pretty funny, err, extremely sad suggestion, that many made that the mccanns would or could have been tortured, i think it came from the most extreme deluded sections of  the pro parties
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 12, 2013, 07:45:54 PM
Do Mrs Cipriano's supporters think that since she only confessed under torture there's a big chance that Madeleine's abductor is also Joana's abductor ?
Inspector Amaral would then have just done a copycat investigation ?
Thanks to the media and the diplomats etc., Mr and Mrs McCann escaped physical torture ?
But mental torture ?

So are you saying, if the media and diplomats etc. hadn't been there, they would have been, physically tortured?.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 12, 2013, 09:07:16 PM
An eight year old not reported missing until quarter to one in the morning !

Leonor reported her daughters disappearance to the GNR - as you can see from the following Amaral  claims they were not told.   I was wondering when the GNR reported it to the PJ?  As after only 4 hours, surely it would have been simple to find physical evidence -  if the gruesome events claimed had actually taken place?   All very odd IMO.

QUOTE from Amaral's book.
 Three years before, we had dealt with a similar case, a few kilometres from Praia da Luz.  We had not been informed at the time of that disappearance, and we are convinced that if the investigation could have been started immediately we would have been able to discover some physical evidence. The police response is fundamental. The first 72 hours are essential.
UNQUOTE


Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 12, 2013, 09:10:46 PM
So evidence LC  reported her disappearance  to the gnr when? Benice?
There are people on the ground who said she didnt report it for two days, FACT is it was AT least in the early hours after  midnight and there is NO excuse for that

Stop supporting convicted child murderers please it sucks big time
Sleep well though nite nite
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 12, 2013, 09:55:35 PM
If they got away with 'neglect' then so did all the other thousands of parents who did  - and still do the same and leave their children asleep to go to dinner on holiday, knowing that regular checks will be made on them.    Some parents will rely on baby monitors and won't go back at all to check.   

It seems to me that parents who do that, and are not targetted by abductors are fine in the Sceptics eyes, as never a word of criticism is heard about those parents.    But if you happen to be the one in a million family who IS targetted, then apparently it's your fault and not the abductors.        I'll never understand that logic.



(Oops sorry for going off topic).
 


Ah yes, the mysterious unproven, no evidence of ABDUCTOR.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 12, 2013, 10:42:06 PM
BUMPED WITH EDIT

Remember how a big black limosine was seen and noted cruising around Figuiera?  THe car of an Elite?

Remember the little motorcaravan that had been in Figueira for a day or two?  Remember how the locals connected the two, especially the motorcaravan with Joanas disappearance?.. cos it vanished at the time she disappeared.

And finally do you remember the little motorcaravan being found abandoned about 7 miles away in PdL?



Now think about it.  How many people do you know who would abandon a motorcaravan?  No mention anywhere that it had been stolen, or thatit had broken down ... just abandoned. 

So what could cause someone to abandon such a desirable thing as a  motorcaravan ? ... even if it was old, many peeps would give their eye teeth for such a thing.

See what I am getting at.


The black limousine was most probably owned by the Elite who paid for the abduction.  He sussed out who he wanted and the caravan driver did the dirty work.



It is only a theory for Stephen to laugh at, as is his way.
But it is a damned sight more likely than what has been blamed on Leonor and Joao.

Edited to add:   
As is so often the case webpages that were there earlier on have been whooshed. After much googling, I found this report by TIMES NEWS ON LINE reporter ALEX WATTS in two different places. 

One will do  Relevant section shown


Quote
http://amaralfiction2.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/joana-cipriano-goncalo-amarals.html
snipped/
 Joana's relatives told Sky News Online the pair are innocent and believe whoever took the girl is also behind Madeleine's disappearance, seven miles away in Praia da Luz. The family, who do not want to be named, said: "This sort of thing doesn't happen in Portugal - child abductions are very rare. Whoever took Joana took Madeleine too, the distance is too small. And the police ignored everything we told them, they just wanted to solve the case quickly. They didn't look at any of the things we told them about." They said the most crucial bit of evidence was a white and brown camper van, parked near Joana's home in the days before she was abducted.The vehicle, with German number plates, disappeared around the time she vanished. They added: "There was a man living in there, but he hardly left the van. A week later the van was found abandoned in farmland in Praia da Luz. We told the police to investigate it, but they didn't listen to us." She said the man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old


Sadly I can no longer find anything about the big black car (limousine) that was seen cruising around by the people of Fiueiras.    Everything whooshed, it seems

I talked about it in a thread, I think, in pfa2 and speculated that it might be en route home from the nearby prestigeous Penina golf Course. Maybe other posters can remember it? 
 
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 12, 2013, 11:29:39 PM

Ah yes, the mysterious unproven, no evidence of ABDUCTOR.

No Evidence of anything, was there Stephen?

No Evdence of sex betwixt Leonor and her brother Joao ... and no known history of it.
No Evidence of Joana coming home and finding them "at it"
No Evidence of them murdering her
No Evidence of them cutting up a body
No Evidence of the body pieces having been stored in a refrigerated unit
No Evidence of them feeding the body parts to their pigs
No witness Evidence cos (allegedly) it was beaten out of the siupposed witness.


Oh seems that Joao was seen carrying a carrier bag. <<<< Case solved ... Jeez!


But there was a campervan and a black limousine driving around which stirred suspicions.  And the camper van WAS found abandoned a few days later in a farmers field in PdL.

Now ... how many people would throw away a campervan?.... unless they felt they had to..... for some reason

What d'ya think Stephen?





PSSST Am already laughing at his answer   .......  Dont need to see it @)(++(*
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on June 13, 2013, 12:32:59 AM
This poor little girl  ...  Joana   

Where is the sympathy for her  ?  ...  where is the compassion ?

Does her sad, and miserably short life not count  ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2013, 12:35:19 AM

I hope the poor little girl is still alive and happy somewhere.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on June 13, 2013, 12:45:52 AM
I hope the poor little girl is still alive and happy somewhere.

And if she is not Eleanor  ...  if her negligent mother and intellectually sub-normal uncle really  did  brutally murder her   ...  what then ?   

What does the defence of her convicted  murderers  say about the compassion felt  for this little girl  ?

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Chinagirl on June 13, 2013, 06:55:29 AM
And if she is not Eleanor  ...  if her negligent mother and intellectually sub-normal uncle really  did  brutally murder her   ...  what then ?   

What does the defence of her convicted  murderers  say about the compassion felt  for this little girl  ?

This is the real tragedy here.  Because of the murkiness surrounding this case, we  cannot be certain of Cipriano's conviction, and ttherefore little Joana has not received justice - she has been abandoned to her fate, whatever that be.

Police brutality is NEVER justified, no matter how heinous the crime suspected, and in this particular case, the evidence leading to Cipriano's conviction seems very shaky indeed, apart from the beating leading to confession. 
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2013, 07:15:50 AM
No Evidence of anything, was there Stephen?

No Evdence of sex betwixt Leonor and her brother Joao ... and no known history of it.
No Evidence of Joana coming home and finding them "at it"
No Evidence of them murdering her
No Evidence of them cutting up a body
No Evidence of the body pieces having been stored in a refrigerated unit
No Evidence of them feeding the body parts to their pigs
No witness Evidence cos (allegedly) it was beaten out of the siupposed witness.


Oh seems that Joao was seen carrying a carrier bag. <<<< Case solved ... Jeez!


But there was a campervan and a black limousine driving around which stirred suspicions.  And the camper van WAS found abandoned a few days later in a farmers field in PdL.

Now ... how many people would throw away a campervan?.... unless they felt they had to..... for some reason

What d'ya think Stephen?





PSSST Am already laughing at his answer   .......  Dont need to see it @)(++(*



Well let's see you booking a plane to Portugal with all this 'information'.

I'm sure the Portuguese authorities will be pleased to see you. 8**8:/: 8**8:/: 8((()*/
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2013, 09:14:11 AM
This poor little girl  ...  Joana   

Where is the sympathy for her  ?  ...  where is the compassion ?

Does her sad, and miserably short life not count  ?

Every bit.  Except for the bit about short life.   She is quite likely still alive and being regularly abused. 

Icabod.  You have seen the FACTS = NO EVIDENCE

Why are you so keen that Joana should be forgotten?  That people should believe her dead? ... with NO PROOF of anything.

Why your interest in promoting her dead?




Propaganda is a powerful weapon
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 13, 2013, 09:30:52 AM
So evidence LC  reported her disappearance  to the gnr when? Benice?
There are people on the ground who said she didnt report it for two days, FACT is it was AT least in the early hours after  midnight and there is NO excuse for that

Stop supporting convicted child murderers please it sucks big time
Sleep well though nite nite

Yes she spoke to GNR officers after midnight - not 2 days later.  Her brother, husband and his friend were also aware Joana was missing -  they didn't report it either. 

Joana disappeared on the 12 September.   The Pj turned up on the 22nd to search the home.   There is no excuse for that either. IMO.

p.s. May I remind you of your 'freedom of thought' comment from a few day ago.   It doesn't only apply to you.



 
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Luz on June 13, 2013, 10:37:28 AM
BUMPED WITH EDIT

Remember how a big black limosine was seen and noted cruising around Figuiera?  THe car of an Elite?

Remember the little motorcaravan that had been in Figueira for a day or two?  Remember how the locals connected the two, especially the motorcaravan with Joanas disappearance?.. cos it vanished at the time she disappeared.

And finally do you remember the little motorcaravan being found abandoned about 7 miles away in PdL?



Now think about it.  How many people do you know who would abandon a motorcaravan?  No mention anywhere that it had been stolen, or thatit had broken down ... just abandoned. 

So what could cause someone to abandon such a desirable thing as a  motorcaravan ? ... even if it was old, many peeps would give their eye teeth for such a thing.

See what I am getting at.


The black limousine was most probably owned by the Elite who paid for the abduction.  He sussed out who he wanted and the caravan driver did the dirty work.



It is only a theory for Stephen to laugh at, as is his way.
But it is a damned sight more likely than what has been blamed on Leonor and Joao.

Edited to add:   
As is so often the case webpages that were there earlier on have been whooshed. After much googling, I found this report by TIMES NEWS ON LINE reporter ALEX WATTS in two different places. 

One will do  Relevant section shown


Quote
http://amaralfiction2.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/joana-cipriano-goncalo-amarals.html
snipped/
 Joana's relatives told Sky News Online the pair are innocent and believe whoever took the girl is also behind Madeleine's disappearance, seven miles away in Praia da Luz. The family, who do not want to be named, said: "This sort of thing doesn't happen in Portugal - child abductions are very rare. Whoever took Joana took Madeleine too, the distance is too small. And the police ignored everything we told them, they just wanted to solve the case quickly. They didn't look at any of the things we told them about." They said the most crucial bit of evidence was a white and brown camper van, parked near Joana's home in the days before she was abducted.The vehicle, with German number plates, disappeared around the time she vanished. They added: "There was a man living in there, but he hardly left the van. A week later the van was found abandoned in farmland in Praia da Luz. We told the police to investigate it, but they didn't listen to us." She said the man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old


Sadly I can no longer find anything about the big black car (limousine) that was seen cruising around by the people of Fiueiras.    Everything whooshed, it seems

I talked about it in a thread, I think, in pfa2 and speculated that it might be en route home from the nearby prestigeous Penina golf Course. Maybe other posters can remember it?

You may talk all you wish, but it all is false. I know the little village of Figueira and I know its inhabitants. Not a single soul of that village stands by those false assumptions.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Luz on June 13, 2013, 10:45:21 AM
I hope the poor little girl is still alive and happy somewhere.

SURE. Like poor little Madeleine, being taken care after
Quote
being taken by a paedophile and.... being treated like a princess
.

Unfortunately "little Joana" was beaten to death and slaughtered by her mother and uncle. I wish you and your gang stopped using this poor child's name when addressing Madeleine's case. Joana has been tortured enough without you taking advantage of the crime that doomed her. Defend your pals without using other children victims.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Luz on June 13, 2013, 10:57:03 AM
Leonor Cipriano fell from the stairs, but her bruises were not a result from that fall. They were the result of an assault inside the prison by her inmates. The prison director was absent on leave at the time and was careless by not isolating Leonor after she confessed to her crime, so she concatenated a way to put the blame outside the prison.

In any case those photos were highly doctored (photo-shopped) to serve an article by Marinho Pinto (the President of the Bar Association) in Expresso journal, who has made a reputation on attacking all non Socialist Party politicians, the Public Ministry, Judges in General and especially the Judiciary Police.

But I bet your dear friend Aragão Correia could have told the true story and his role on this if you asked him.
I know he fled, but I'm sure he left a way for you guys to reach him.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 13, 2013, 11:15:06 AM
Leonor Cipriano fell from the stairs, but her bruises were not a result from that fall. They were the result of an assault inside the prison by her inmates. The prison director was absent on leave at the time and was careless by not isolating Leonor after she confessed to her crime, so she concatenated a way to put the blame outside the prison.

In any case those photos were highly doctored (photo-shopped) to serve an article by Marinho Pinto (the President of the Bar Association) in Expresso journal, who has made a reputation on attacking all non Socialist Party politicians, the Public Ministry, Judges in General and especially the Judiciary Police.

But I bet your dear friend Aragão Correia could have told the true story and his role on this if you asked him.
I know he fled, but I'm sure he left a way for you guys to reach him.

Everything about this case is toxic Luz. Any self-respecting person wouldn't touch it without gloves !
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Luz on June 13, 2013, 11:17:33 AM
Cite?



cite ?  pfft



....   read the Supreme Court of Justice  case ruling



This woman is a degenerate  and the eight year old daughter she was convicted of murdering lived her short life in misery

That people are defending this monstrous woman takes my breath away !


I am not defending her, merely asking you to back up your claims.

Did the trial prove those were the girl's finger scratches, or was it a police claim. What was the quali t y of the evidence.

According to the Portuguese Penal Code nobody can be convicted based on a confession or witnesses' testimonies only, there's got to be forensic evidence.

In Leonor and João Cipriano's convictions the confessions played little role since they didn't repeat them in Court and so they weren't used by the Trial Judges. The trial was based on the forensic evidence presented that supported the testimonies by several witnesses.

Minimizing the horror of this crime in order to find fuel to burn the PJ, so as to put a good light shining over the McCann is the most distorted, horrific, disgusting strategy I've ever saw displayed by assumingly "good" souls.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 13, 2013, 11:30:41 AM
According to the Portuguese Penal Code nobody can be convicted based on a confession or witnesses' testimonies only, there's got to be forensic evidence.

In Leonor and João Cipriano's convictions the confessions played little role since they didn't repeat them in Court and so they weren't used by the Trial Judges. The trial was based on the forensic evidence presented that supported the testimonies by several witnesses.

Minimizing the horror of this crime in order to find fuel to burn the PJ, so as to put a good light shining over the McCann is the most distorted, horrific, disgusting strategy I've ever saw displayed by assumingly "good" souls.


What forensic evidence?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2013, 11:32:23 AM

At least one of The Judges thought that Leonor Cipriano was Innocent.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Chinagirl on June 13, 2013, 11:43:05 AM
Whatever the truth of the matter - even if Cipriano is guilty - it does not justify police brutality against her.

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 13, 2013, 11:50:00 AM
Whatever the truth of the matter - even if Cipriano is guilty - it does not justify police brutality against her.

The fact that she has a conviction for perjury puts her account of how her injuries were sustained in serious doubt.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2013, 11:54:02 AM
Whatever the truth of the matter - even if Cipriano is guilty - it does not justify police brutality against her.

No torture is justifiable Chinagirl.

Neither is the murder of a small child.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2013, 12:14:37 PM
i am not quite sure what planet you are living on, but you are clearly deluded.

What threat did I make ?

You clearly hate anyone who dares criticize your beloved Mccanns or dares suggest they are not telling the truth.

However, there is no reason you should not go to Portugal and put your money where your mouth is, unless of course you are all mouth and no trousers. >@@(*&)

Actually I wear skirts most of the time ?{)(**
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: xtina on June 13, 2013, 12:15:31 PM
Minimizing the horror of this crime in order to find fuel to burn the PJ, so as to put a good light shining over the McCann is the most distorted, horrific, disgusting strategy I've ever saw displayed by assumingly "good" souls.


well said luz .......spot on .......my thoughts also .
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2013, 12:16:48 PM

What about The Judge who thought Leonor Cipriano was Innocent?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 12:22:38 PM

What forensic evidence?
I almost know nothing about this case, Carana, but you do. Does this question suggest there was no forensic at least solid evidence and that Mrs Cipriano was convicted mainly on the basis of a confession that had been obtained through torture?
If so, why would magistrates and policemen be united in condemning an innocent woman ?
To prove the rest of the planet that dictatorship time had gone ?
Can this all be the "Amaral effect" ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2013, 12:34:47 PM
What about The Judge who thought Leonor Cipriano was Innocent?

 8@??)( 8@??)(

Brave man

And what about all the torture ?

Leonor, Joao, and Leandro (this by Amaral himself allegedly)



What about the detailed report of exactly what happened to Joanas body?  How did the PJ manage to manufacture that in minute detail when there was No body?  Dont tell me that Joao told them becos he was tortureed so that is NOT evidence.  He told them whatever they wanted to save himself from pain.


And what about the camper van and the black limousine?

The camper van vanishing at about the same time as Joana vanished?   Later to be found abandoned in PdL?  Peeps dont usually abandon camper vans like that, do they?

Ya know even if you anti guys who stick to the same Mantra, just paused a while and thought about it a bit .... and expressed a little doubt, it would be more reasonable.


DO YOU NOT CARE ABOUT TORTURE and JUSTICE?

Sorry to shout, but felt llike it on this occasion
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2013, 12:47:50 PM

 8@??)( 8@??)(

Brave man

And what about all the torture ?

Leonor, Joao, and Leandro (this by Amaral himself allegedly)



What about the detailed report of exactly what happened to Joanas body?  How did the PJ manage to manufacture that in minute detail when there was No body?  Dont tell me that Joao told them becos he was tortureed so that is NOT evidence.  He told them whatever they wanted to save himself from pain.


And what about the camper van and the black limousine?

The camper van vanishing at about the same time as Joana vanished?   Later to be found abandoned in PdL?  Peeps dont usually abandon camper vans like that, do they?

Ya know even if you anti guys who stick to the same Mantra, just paused a while and thought about it a bit .... and expressed a little doubt, it would be more reasonable.


DO YOU NOT CARE ABOUT TORTURE and JUSTICE?

Sorry to shout, but felt llike it on this occasion



If you really believe what you write, then go to Portugal and SHOUT there to your hearts content.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 01:01:31 PM
What if the police seized Sadie in a nutshell and made sure through torture that she'd shut up about torture ? Would Pink C. Cat driving a black limousine help her out of this nightmare?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2013, 01:03:58 PM
What if the police seized Sadie in a nutshell and made sure through torture that she'd shut up about torture ? Would Pink C. Cat driving a black limousine help her out of this nightmare?

wtf   8-)(--)
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 13, 2013, 01:29:37 PM
You may talk all you wish, but it all is false. I know the little village of Figueira and I know its inhabitants. Not a single soul of that village stands by those false assumptions.

Are you sure "Not a single soul of that village stands by those false assumptions about that"?

According to the Portuguese Penal Code nobody can be convicted based on a confession or witnesses' testimonies only, there's got to be forensic evidence.

In Leonor and João Cipriano's convictions the confessions played little role since they didn't repeat them in Court and so they weren't used by the Trial Judges. The trial was based on the forensic evidence presented that supported the testimonies by several witnesses.
Minimizing the horror of this crime in order to find fuel to burn the PJ, so as to put a good light shining over the McCann is the most distorted, horrific, disgusting strategy I've ever saw displayed by assumingly "good" souls.

Do you have a link to this forensic evidence, Luz?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 13, 2013, 01:33:55 PM
What if the police seized Sadie in a nutshell and made sure through torture that she'd shut up about torture ? Would Pink C. Cat driving a black limousine help her out of this nightmare?

So you admit torture, is still used in Portugal, Anne.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2013, 02:12:21 PM
Are you sure "Not a single soul of that village stands by those false assumptions about that"?

Do you have a link to this forensic evidence, Luz?

Only last night I came across a website saying how most of the Figueira villagers supported Leonor against the PJ. with lovely photographs of the family and their very pleasant home.  Clean and neat au contraire to the PJs assertions.  Family all clean and neat too.

Few would dare say it publicly tho.  The sort of torture Laeonor and Michael Cook endured could finish a frail person off.

Yep, Luz let's have your forensic eveidence
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 02:19:39 PM
So you admit torture, is still used in Portugal, Anne.
I was kidding, not very funny I'm afraid.
If Sadie was in Portugal and publicly denounced torture in the middle of Praça do Comercio, she would probably be kindly advised to stop it. If she insisted, she would be kindly invited to go back to her room and if she resisted she would be kindly sent to some cuckoo nest.
From where are you accusing Portugal of using torture, DCI ? From the UK ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 13, 2013, 02:28:29 PM
I almost know nothing about this case, Carana, but you do. Does this question suggest there was no forensic at least solid evidence and that Mrs Cipriano was convicted mainly on the basis of a confession that had been obtained through torture?
If so, why would magistrates and policemen be united in condemning an innocent woman ?
To prove the rest of the planet that dictatorship time had gone ?
Can this all be the "Amaral effect" ?


I was wondering what forensics Luz was referring to.

Despite this apparently bloody massacre, there was so little of it that they couldn't even determine who it belonged to. From reading that legal summary, I don't see what wouldn't be comptaible with a nicked finger. There was so little of it that the forensic lab never established who it belonged to. Some of it was of animal origin. And I don't see why a speck of unidentified blood on a freezer drawer means that they'd tried to stuff a body in it.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2013, 02:39:32 PM
Wasn't there a bit of dna mentioned from one of Joanas siblings?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 02:53:37 PM

I was wondering what forensics Luz was referring to.

Despite this apparently bloody massacre, there was so little of it that they couldn't even determine who it belonged to. From reading that legal summary, I don't see what wouldn't be comptaible with a nicked finger. There was so little of it that the forensic lab never established who it belonged to. Some of it was of animal origin. And I don't see why a speck of unidentified blood on a freezer drawer means that they'd tried to stuff a body in it.
Have you read all the Cipriano files, Carana ? And all documents well translated ?
Luz was right in saying you can't convict someone on the basis of his/her confession.
Cases of false confessions are many and not always because X or Y wants to see his/her name in the media. Sometimes they just can't stand the "interview" any more, they say anything to be left alone for some time.
I reckon that, apart from Mr Amaral and co, your suspicions concern also judges and I find it really worrying.
If a British fool is condemned to pay a substantive amount for contempt of court though the effect of his ludicrous words was almost nul, what about people on forums suggesting the Public Ministry doesn't respect the Codigo de procedimento penal ?
Are you criticizing Portugal because it's too risky to criticize any institution in the UK ?
Please don't condescend to there having some decent Portugueses, those you know.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2013, 03:03:48 PM
So you cant convict anyone on the basis of their confession?

So waht did they convict Leonor and Joao on?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2013, 03:10:06 PM

The Confession was produced in Court, illegally, so I read.

And what about The Judge who believed she was Innocent?  No one seems to want to talk about him
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 13, 2013, 03:33:36 PM
I was kidding, not very funny I'm afraid.
If Sadie was in Portugal and publicly denounced torture in the middle of Praça do Comercio, she would probably be kindly advised to stop it. If she insisted, she would be kindly invited to go back to her room and if she resisted she would be kindly sent to some cuckoo nest.
From where are you accusing Portugal of using torture, DCI ? From the UK ?

Kidding were you, I didn't find it funny.

You ask me where I'm accusing Portugal of using torture, when you insinuated, Sadie could be tortured @)(++(*

You can't keep moving the goal posts to suit what you say, Anne.

Take this from today's CM. of the stupidity of Portuguese courts

Cavaco Silva called thief

€ 1,300 fine for insult
The man of 25 years, on Sunday, insulted the President of the Republic, Cavaco Silva, during a visit to the exhibition Day military of Portugal, Elvas, was in court yesterday sentenced to a fine of 1300 euros for libel .

Carlos Costal called "thief" the Head of State. "I told him that he was being robbed every day and that was it was going to work. But it was a political rant. Condemnation is unfair," says the man, a native of Campo Maior, who was arrested. Carlos was accompanied by his wife and two minor children. "There is so much opposition in the country, and so many offenses, and is just what happens to my husband one of these things", said the woman, Ximena Costal. The man is sorry and will appeal the court's decision.

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/ultima-hora/1300--de-multa-por-insulto
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2013, 03:42:28 PM
Kidding were you, I didn't find it funny.

You ask me where I'm accusing Portugal of using torture, when you insinuated, Sadie could be tortured @)(++(*

You can't keep moving the goal posts to suit what you say, Anne.

Take this from today's CM. of the stupidity of your courts

Cavaco Silva called thief

€ 1,300 fine for insult
The man of 25 years, on Sunday, insulted the President of the Republic, Cavaco Silva, during a visit to the exhibition Day military of Portugal, Elvas, was in court yesterday sentenced to a fine of 1300 euros for libel .

Goodness me.  Whatever happened to Free Speach?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 13, 2013, 03:44:45 PM
Only last night I came across a website saying how most of the Figueira villagers supported Leonor against the PJ. with lovely photographs of the family and their very pleasant home.  Clean and neat au contraire to the PJs assertions.  Family all clean and neat too.

Few would dare say it publicly tho.  The sort of torture Laeonor and Michael Cook endured could finish a frail person off.

Yep, Luz let's have your forensic eveidence

Weren't we made to believe there home was a hovel?

(http://i.prphotos.com/i/SPX-013077/Joana-Ciprianos-Home-Joana-Cipriano,-Eight-Year-Old-Portuguese-Girl,-Missing-Since-September-12,-2004---File-Photos.jpg)(http://i.prphotos.com/i/SPX-013076/Joana-Ciprianos-Home-Joana-Cipriano,-Eight-Year-Old-Portuguese-Girl,-Missing-Since-September-12,-2004---File-Photos.jpg)
 
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRO5PDWWVWcKN_rsx8LI9xqRCia5OJK_NIw8N3OewmiAUPSqkzwbw)
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 03:47:31 PM
the stupidity of your courts


What do you mean with "your" ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 13, 2013, 03:51:54 PM
What do you mean with "your" ?

Ammended  8((()*/
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 04:01:52 PM
According to artigo 328.º do Código Penal, "who insults or defames the President of the Republic or who constitutionnaly substitutes him/her is punished with up to 3 years jail or a fine.
This is the function, not the man, which is concerned. The President is elected by a majority and then turns into the President of all people of a country.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Benice on June 13, 2013, 04:03:16 PM

QUOTE FROM
Supreme Court of Justice - 'Joana case' ruling - Part III
13 July 2009 | Posted by astro Leave a Comment
(on how to evaluate evidence, and on the reconstitution)


"After “going through” the witness evidence, we verify that there is no direct evidence of the facts, namely due to anyone seeing the crime being committed.

Even more, there is even no direct evidence of the homicide, because the minor’s dead body has not appeared''.

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 04:09:20 PM
Please note that Police in Portugal are not equivalent to the President of Portugal. Several guilty verdicts have been handed over in Torture cases to serving officers of law enforcement, are you implying that the judges who handed out those sentences are acting against Portuguese law?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2013, 04:24:37 PM
Weren't we made to believe there home was a hovel?

(http://i.prphotos.com/i/SPX-013077/Joana-Ciprianos-Home-Joana-Cipriano,-Eight-Year-Old-Portuguese-Girl,-Missing-Since-September-12,-2004---File-Photos.jpg)(http://i.prphotos.com/i/SPX-013076/Joana-Ciprianos-Home-Joana-Cipriano,-Eight-Year-Old-Portuguese-Girl,-Missing-Since-September-12,-2004---File-Photos.jpg)
 
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRO5PDWWVWcKN_rsx8LI9xqRCia5OJK_NIw8N3OewmiAUPSqkzwbw)
Thank you Dc1.  I had other photos too, showing Leonors home, but I dont know where they are.

Leonors home is a damned sight tidier than mine

Disinformation all the time

Just propaganda.  disgusting, but the suckers suck it up.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 13, 2013, 04:33:04 PM
Have you read all the Cipriano files, Carana ? And all documents well translated ?
Luz was right in saying you can't convict someone on the basis of his/her confession.
Cases of false confessions are many and not always because X or Y wants to see his/her name in the media. Sometimes they just can't stand the "interview" any more, they say anything to be left alone for some time.
I reckon that, apart from Mr Amaral and co, your suspicions concern also judges and I find it really worrying.
If a British fool is condemned to pay a substantive amount for contempt of court though the effect of his ludicrous words was almost nul, what about people on forums suggesting the Public Ministry doesn't respect the Codigo de procedimento penal ?
Are you criticizing Portugal because it's too risky to criticize any institution in the UK ?
Please don't condescend to there having some decent Portugueses, those you know.


I'm not criticising the Portuguese judiciary, but miscarriages of justice can - and do - happen in every country. Some people have served long sentences in the UK, for example, for crimes that they simply did not commit.

When these do occur in the UK, they are openly discussed.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 04:43:13 PM
The torture related cases we are talking about have already been through the courts, it was the Portuguese judiciary who established that the crime of TORTURE had taken place, in the Portimao police station by persons "unknown". It was also established that Amaral made untruthful statements to the court. It is certainly not against any law to discuss those cases, not in Portugal or anywhere else in Europe.

The evidence presented in the Cipriano case are in the public domain & we are allowed to talk about that too.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 13, 2013, 04:52:59 PM
The torture related cases we are talking about have already been through the courts, it was the Portuguese judiciary who established that the crime of TORTURE had taken place, in the Portimao police station by persons "unknown". It was also established that Amaral made untruthful statements to the court. It is certainly not against any law to discuss those cases, not in Portugal or anywhere else in Europe.

The evidence presented in the Cipriano case are in the public domain & we are allowed to talk about that too.

Yes they are. Sofia's complaint about Amaral's threats was also allowed to be bought into court, during Leonor's appeal.
So who was it, said it was fake?

Anne, knows nothing about this case, as she said herself. So it might pay Anne to read the files on it, before commenting.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 05:31:28 PM

When these do occur in the UK, they are openly discussed.
Well, not in Portugal anyhow. Is there an English for the Portuguese "Start by sweeping in front of your door" or is it an idiomatic expression ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 05:34:49 PM
Well, not in Portugal anyhow. Is there an English for the Portuguese "Start by sweeping in front of your door" or is it an idiomatic expression ?

The Cipriano case took place in Portugal, not in the UK, so why would we discuss the UK in reference to this case?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 05:35:43 PM
Yes they are. Sofia's complaint about Amaral's threats was also allowed to be bought into court, during Leonor's appeal.
So who was it, said it was fake?

Anne, knows nothing about this case, as she said herself. So it might pay Anne to read the files on it, before commenting.
I didn't comment the case but the fact it was commented on this forum, as it is clear the defence of Mrs Cipriano's rights isn't not the issue.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 05:44:05 PM
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
 For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Matthew 7:1-5
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 13, 2013, 06:16:07 PM
I didn't comment the case but the fact it was commented on this forum, as it is clear the defence of Mrs Cipriano's rights isn't not the issue.

For me, the mainissue is what happened to this little girl.

I'm perfectly aware that some families do kill their own children. However, every case is different and needs to be examined seperately.

As I said before, if they really are guilty of such horrific deeds, then they are where they should be: in prison serving a long sentence.

But what was the hard evidence in this case?

What if one or both were not guilty? Unless Joana fell down a manhole or otherwise disappeared by accident, it might mean that someone dangerous is still out there.

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 06:17:17 PM
Pardon, we're discussing the Cipriano case, where does the bible come into it?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Puffin on June 13, 2013, 06:19:09 PM
Pardon, we're discussing the Cipriano case, where does the bible come into it?
It doesn't in any way, shape or form.  Some posters might find it distasteful to quote religious texts.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 06:22:18 PM
It doesn't in any way, shape or form.  Some posters might find it distasteful to quote religious texts.

Don't personally find it distasteful, merely intriguing, especially from self confessed atheists.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 06:27:03 PM
For me, the main issue is what happened to this little girl.

What other little girls' fates over the planet are you interest in, Carana ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 13, 2013, 06:29:59 PM
Only last night I came across a website saying how most of the Figueira villagers supported Leonor against the PJ. with lovely photographs of the family and their very pleasant home.  Clean and neat au contraire to the PJs assertions.  Family all clean and neat too.

Few would dare say it publicly tho.  The sort of torture Laeonor and Michael Cook endured could finish a frail person off.

Yep, Luz let's have your forensic eveidence

This is a woman who has six children, most who were farmed out to relatives, by five different fathers and a missing eight year old daughter with signs of sexual abuse of her underwear.

It is easy to clean up your home sadie, a damn sight harder to clean up your past.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 06:32:17 PM
Don't personally find it distasteful, merely intriguing, especially from self confessed atheists.
It's not necessary to be a Christian nor to believe this Jewish man historically existed, instead of being a conceptual character (a mixture of all Messiahs who popped up more than 2000 years ago in under Roman Empire domination Palestine) to find these words full of wisdom.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Carana on June 13, 2013, 06:38:39 PM
This is a woman who has six children, most who were farmed out to relatives, by five different fathers and a missing eight year old daughter with signs of sexual abuse of her underwear.

It is easy to clean up your home sadie, a damn sight harder to clean up your past.

Was her underwear ever tested by the lab? If so, what were the results?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Puffin on June 13, 2013, 06:42:46 PM
Don't personally find it distasteful, merely intriguing, especially from self confessed atheists.
I don't either, I quite enjoy fiction, on the whole that is.   8(0(*
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 06:52:18 PM
Was her underwear ever tested by the lab? If so, what were the results?

Yes, I'd be interested to see a credible link to that evidence, as I can't find it either.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 13, 2013, 07:15:19 PM
lenoras common law husband leandro silva iirc gave evidence that she confessed  8)-)))to him what had happened, no doubt some will say this was tortured out of him too........

A small point that seems to be sooo overlooked here, why was a missing eight yr old child not reported to police by anybody until well past midnight after just going down the road to get a few groceries at 8pm

!

apologist answers on a postcard thanks
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on June 13, 2013, 07:22:26 PM
lenoras common law husband leandro silva iirc gave evidence that she confessed  8)-)))to him what had happened, no doubt some will say this was tortured out of him too........

A small point that seems to be sooo overlooked here, why was a missing eight yr old child not reported to police by anybody until well past midnight after just going down the road to get a few groceries at 8pm

!

apologist answers on a postcard thanks

Is the common law husband Joana's father   ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 13, 2013, 07:35:34 PM
Is the common law husband Joana's father   ?

i am not sure, LL is the father of Joana, seems Silva was referred to as II, edited again, no I dont thnk he was her father


m) minor CC, in September 2004, was aged eight, being thin and measuring between 1,20 and 1,40 metres; (2)

n) minor CC was sometimes sad;

o) the arguida BB did not exercise any professional activity;

p) when the arguida was living with partner II, minor CC helped her mother with some home chores, as she sometimes helped to clean the house, took care of her younger siblings and went shopping;

q) before arguida BB moved in with her partner II, she wanted to stop having CC under her care, and left her, at the age of 5 months, with her father, LL – with whom she had no relationship since the beginning of the pregnancy – who ended up ‘returning’ her 2 days later, and later, she once more handed her over to the father, who didn’t want to keep her;

Edited
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 07:41:36 PM
Torture charge for former Madeleine police chief
Updated: 09-Jul-2009

Former police chief Gonçalo Amaral, who led the Madeleine McCann investigation, has been charged with torturing a suspect in another missing child case.

Portugal’s public ministry has accused Gonçalo Amaral of torturing Leandro Silva, the partner of Leonor Cipriano who is in jail for the murder of her daughter Joana in 2004 (see the Algarve Resident edition, September 5, 2008).

Leandro Silva claims that the former police chief punched him in the abdomen and slapped him across the face in October 2004, with the help of two other unidentified police officers, while asking where the child’s body was hidden. Leandro Silva is asking for 500,000 euros in compensation.

Meanwhile, Leandro and Leonor’s lawyer, Marcos Aragão Correia has also made a claim of more than 500,000 euros against Gonçalo Amaral for defamation of character.

http://www.algarveresident.com/33288-32232/algarve/torture-charge-for-former-madeleine-police-chief
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 07:44:36 PM
Leandro  da Silva isn't Joana's father.
Her father is Paulo Guerreiro.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 13, 2013, 07:45:09 PM
Torture charge for former Madeleine police chief
Updated: 09-Jul-2009

Former police chief Gonçalo Amaral, who led the Madeleine McCann investigation, has been charged with torturing a suspect in another missing child case.

Portugal’s public ministry has accused Gonçalo Amaral of torturing Leandro Silva, the partner of Leonor Cipriano who is in jail for the murder of her daughter Joana in 2004 (see the Algarve Resident edition, September 5, 2008).

Leandro Silva claims that the former police chief punched him in the abdomen and slapped him across the face in October 2004, with the help of two other unidentified police officers, while asking where the child’s body was hidden. Leandro Silva is asking for 500,000 euros in compensation.

Meanwhile, Leandro and Leonor’s lawyer, Marcos Aragão Correia has also made a claim of more than 500,000 euros against Gonçalo Amaral for defamation of character.

http://www.algarveresident.com/33288-32232/algarve/torture-charge-for-former-madeleine-police-chief

And the reason they all waited years to say this was???? Oh they were waiting for a pro mccann psychic lawyer
 8((()*/




Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on June 13, 2013, 07:47:14 PM
i am not sure, LL is the father of Joana, seems Silva was referred to as II, edited again, no I dont thnk he was her father


m) minor CC, in September 2004, was aged eight, being thin and measuring between 1,20 and 1,40 metres; (2)

n) minor CC was sometimes sad;

o) the arguida BB did not exercise any professional activity;

p) when the arguida was living with partner II, minor CC helped her mother with some home chores, as she sometimes helped to clean the house, took care of her younger siblings and went shopping;

q) before arguida BB moved in with her partner II, she wanted to stop having CC under her care, and left her, at the age of 5 months, with her father, LL – with whom she had no relationship since the beginning of the pregnancy – who ended up ‘returning’ her 2 days later, and later, she once more handed her over to the father, who didn’t want to keep her;

Edited

Hard to imagine a more inadequate mother then  ...  no wonder the neighbours remarked at her uncaring treatment of little Joana   

   
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 07:48:51 PM
Dear me, you'd almost get the impression that some elements agree with torturing people. Interesting.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on June 13, 2013, 07:49:59 PM
Leandro  da Silva isn't Joana's father.

Does anyone know who  her real father  is  ? 
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 13, 2013, 07:52:01 PM
Dear me, you'd almost get the impression that some elements agree with torturing people. Interesting.

Your silly minds machinations are, well, just that


pathetic as usual

Wondering what YOUR theory is on why none  of her family reported her missing...... Took someone else to do it well past midnight,
 >@@(*&)




Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2013, 07:53:04 PM
Dear me, you'd almost get the impression that some elements agree with torturing people. Interesting.

Some elements have actually said they do.  One almost hopes those elements never find themselves in the same position.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: icabodcrane on June 13, 2013, 07:58:11 PM
Dear me, you'd almost get the impression that some elements agree with torturing people. Interesting.

The fact that  Joana's mother was feckless and inadequate,  and that the family were dysfunctional in the extreme has nothing to do with the appalling treatment meted out by the police  ...  it does, though,  give us some insight into the unstable,  and uncaring family  life little Joanna endured,  that may eventually have lead to her brutal murder
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 13, 2013, 07:58:23 PM
Some elements have actually said they do.  One almost hopes those elements never find themselves in the same position.

So what? If less than a handful of posters out of thousand said that, so what? I know what, it means its a cowardly weapon used by YOU and your cohorts  to taint every single person that doubts, pathetic at e very very best
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 08:00:48 PM
No, it's a personal opinion based on comments made.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2013, 08:01:40 PM
What I am asking myself is WHERE HAVE ALL THE PHOTOGRAPHS VANISHED TO SHOWING LEONORS LOVELY CLEAN HOME?

Pages 23 and 24 , this thread
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 13, 2013, 08:05:31 PM
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/11/joana-cipriano-case.html


More information
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 08:07:34 PM
Credible sources & Morais simply doesn't compute.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 13, 2013, 08:09:22 PM
Credible sources & Morais simply doesn't compute.

That is your problem Mrs bee, now, why not state your opinion as asked already why YOU thihk none of joanas family reported her missing, stumped are we? No wonder
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2013, 08:13:03 PM
Where have all the photoigraphs gone showing Leonors very well kept home?

Have they been whooshed?  Why?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 08:16:54 PM
Joana was reported missing the next day - according to Paulo Pereira Cristovao.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2013, 08:17:48 PM
What I am asking myself is WHERE HAVE ALL THE PHOTOGRAPHS VANISHED TO SHOWING LEONORS LOVELY CLEAN HOME?

Pages 23 and 24 , this thread

I see, so if you have a clean home, you cannot be a murderer.

PURE C'RAP.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2013, 08:20:27 PM
I see, so if you have a clean home, you cannot be a murderer.

PURE C'RAP.

Gentlemanly reply as usual, Stephen. 

Why did the PJ keep on about Leonor living in a mess?

And why have the photoographs of the house all gone missing?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2013, 08:27:14 PM
http://www.statewatch.org/news/2008/may/02portugal-report.htm

Herewith Statewatch Report:

Portugal
Report on torture suffered by Leonor Cipriano

SOS Prisões and ACED produced a report that they sent to high-ranking Portuguese authorities with competencies in this field concerning the allegations of torture suffered in September 2004 by Leonor Cipriano at the hands of the judicial police in their offices in Faro. She is currently serving a 16-year and eight-month prison sentence in Odemira women's prison, after she was found guilty of killing her eight-year-old daughter Joana, who she reported as having disappeared. Cipriano maintains her innocence and told the author of the report, lawyer Marcos Aragão Correia, who visited her in prison on 8 April 2008, that there was no evidence to prove the allegations, before describing how she was mistreated for two days in order to induce her to sign a confession of this horrendous crime, which she eventually did. Correia also met the director of Odemira prison, Ana Maria Calado, who confirmed suspicions about Cipriano's treatment, noting that she was "shocked about the conditions in which Cipriano entered the prison". ACED argues that it does not have the means to confirm what the situation in terms of the practice of torture by the police in Portugal may be, but calls on the state to comply with its international obligations.

Leonor Cipriano's account

After accepting to meet Correia, Cipriano denied having played any part in the death of her daughter Joana, who disappeared on the evening of 12 September 2004 after she went out to buy some groceries for her mother in a nearby shop in Figueira, near Portimão, as she often did. Upon seeing that her daughter was taking longer than expected, she went to the shop and was told that Joana had been there, but had already left with a few groceries, after which the Guarda Nacional Republicana was called. On 25 September, Leonor Cipriano was placed in preventive detention in Odemira prison, and was taken by judicial police officers to their offices in Faro on the next day. She was upset by the allegations made against her (that she had killed Joana, cut her up and fed her remains to pigs), which she rejected. Meanwhile, and in the absence of any evidence, the five officers involved became aggressive, shouted and unsuccessfully tried to convince her to confess, after which the torture began. Two glass ashtrays were placed on the floor, and Leonor was forced to kneel on them, without being allowed to get up until she confessed. She showed Correia the scars on her knees, still visible four years later. She was then sat on a chair with a green plastic shopping bag over her head, and officers started striking her on the head with a cardboard tube, causing her haemorrhages resulting in blood descending to her eyes, and her hands were struck when she tried to take the bag off her head. She was told that she would not get out of there until she confessed, and was made to stand, sometimes with the bag on her head and sometimes without it, and punched and kicked on the side of her ribs, repeatedly.

The torture lasted for two days, after which she signed a confession, and she was then returned to prison, where her serious conditions led to her being taken to Odemira health centre. She was told by judicial police officers to tell the doctor that she had thrown herself down a flight of stairs in the Faro judicial police headquarters in a suicide attempt, threatening that if she spoke of any aggression, she would be interrogated again and would not survive. Cipriano said she did as they demanded in their presence, but told the prison officers and director of the prison what had happened once they left. The director ordered photographs to be taken of her, and for a legal-medical report to be drawn up as a result of her poor conditions. Leonor Cipriano's brother João was also reportedly tortured and found guilty of the murder, although the prison to which he was taken did not run the same checks to determine whether he had been subjected to an aggression. After they were both found guilty, he wrote to his sister to apologise for the lies he had been forced to tell about her. When Leonor was invited to identify her aggressors by an investigating magistrate in Évora in 2006, she was only able to identify one official who was present and did nothing to prevent the abuses, possibly because she had had a bag over her head for long periods, or due to the time that had passed, or because not all her torturers were among the six officers placed before her.

The prison director

Correia then spoke to Odemira prison director Ana Maria Calado, who confirmed Leonor Cipriano's account, noting how shocked she was about her conditions, with black marks, haematomae and bruising in her face, mainly around her eyes, her head and ribs, mainly on her sides. She assured that the physical marks clearly indicated a violent aggression and not a fall down some stairs, something the legal-medical report also confirmed. She noted that Cipriano's conditions worsened a week after she was tortured, as the blood that had gathered at the height of her brows was so much that it ended up falling over her eyes, leaving her practically blind for almost a month, and the director regrets not having ordered photographs of this period to be taken. She also said that relations between Cipriano and the prison guards and other prisoners were good, and that she did not believe that she had attempted suicide.

Calado expressed her surprise for a number of facts: a) that the judicial police did not take Cipriano to a health centre in Faro to certify that she had fallen down some stairs; b) that the day of her interrogation was chosen during Calado's week of holidays, when she would never have allowed her to be picked up at 6 a.m. without a formal request by the judicial police; and c) that judicial police officers who arrived from Lisbon to investigate the allegations of torture proposed sharing the blame between the judicial police and prison, something she refused. Correia praised the director, describing her as "courageous" and as prizing "values" more highly than "corporate interests".

Conclusion

The report concludes that the testimony of Leonor Cipriano and of the prison director, as well as other available evidence, are convincing in terms of proving that a crime of torture was committed by officers of the Portuguese judicial police. It condemns the use of "medieval methods" to "extract confessions at all cost, even if they are false", as "inadmissible" and as harmful for Portugal's image as an EU member that defends human rights and has a modern legal order and, as such, argues that these practices must be punished in "exemplary" fashion, or the Portuguese citizenry will lose faith in the judicial system.

The report ends with a message from Leonor Cipriano, who was treated as a monster as a result of the horrible nature of the crime she was accused and found guilty of committing:

"I hope that my daughter Joana appears, not only to be with her again, but also to show the world that it was the gentlemen officers of the judicial police who tortured me and who are the real monsters".

Source:
Relatório sobre Tortura de Leonor Cipriano, 8.4.2008, ACED - Associação Contra a Exclusão pelo Desenvolvimento, SOS Prisoes - report (pdf)

Admin please remove if already posted on this thread ... but not otherwise.  Thankyou
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 13, 2013, 08:27:27 PM
Joana was reported missing the next day - according to Paulo Pereira Cristovao.

Police files say she was reported at near 1 am, But NOT by the parents, why did YOU evade the question? let me put it simply for you.....why would the family of an  8 yr old NOT report them missing for hours and hours and hours, cant be that hard a question for you to answer can it??
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 13, 2013, 08:29:16 PM
Interesting


photoshopped pics of LC?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECFa07sToZg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Oh and whats this?

 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_cDPerDprM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 08:30:49 PM
LOL I can only go after what I read myself, I wasn't personally there & take certain "sources" with a pinch of salt.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2013, 08:35:59 PM
Gentlemanly reply as usual, Stephen. 

Why did the PJ keep on about Leonor living in a mess?

And why have the photoographs of the house all gone missing?

You are fixated with protecting a convicted child murderer.

Why is that ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 13, 2013, 08:36:45 PM
Police files say she was reported at near 1 am, But NOT by the parents, why did YOU evade the question? let me put it simply for you.....why would the family of an  8 yr old NOT report them missing for hours and hours and hours, cant be that hard a question for you to answer can it??

BUMP for the evasive and dumbstruck  mrs beeeee
 @)(++(*

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 08:39:37 PM
From the same book "Estrela de Joana" by Paulo Pereira Cristovao

She was reported missing by her mother and her partner the next day, at the GNR station in Portimao.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 13, 2013, 08:41:23 PM
From the same book "Estrela de Joana" by Paulo Pereira Cristovao

She was reported missing by her mother and her partner the next day, at the GNR station in Portimao.

Still evading by the bucket load mrs beeeeee, why did they not report their 8 yr old child missing before the next day????? Would YOU wait overnight to do it mrs beeee?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 13, 2013, 08:43:17 PM
And the reason they all waited years to say this was???? Oh they were waiting for a pro mccann psychic lawyer
 8((()*/

And a hefty compensation payment, no doubt  @)(++(*
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 08:45:28 PM
So basically you were wrong again, she was reported missing by her mother. The next day. It's totally irrelevant what I would have done, I'm not Leonor Cipriano.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2013, 08:49:40 PM
So basically you were wrong again, she was reported missing by her mother. The next day. It's totally irrelevant what I would have done, I'm not Leonor Cipriano.

Indeed, she is a convicted child murderer.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 13, 2013, 08:52:17 PM
////
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 08:54:15 PM
The real question is if it was a case of miscarriage of justice, the evidence that has been made public is at the very least questionable & rather flimsy. Added to that there's the torture to consider.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 13, 2013, 08:57:08 PM
So basically you were wrong again, she was reported missing by her mother. The next day. It's totally irrelevant what I would have done, I'm not Leonor Cipriano.

Her mother wasnt bothered about her missing therefore, cheers mrsbeeeee
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 09:01:42 PM
Do you mean these neighbours.

Another witness heard earlier in the process, puts forward new facts through new document who wrote and signed the original of which is annexed to this pleading. These facts once again corroborate the statements above transcribed, and are completely independent of a person who does not have at present any relationship with the procedural subjects, but who at the time lived permanently with the Appellant and her daughter Joana, for when the girl disappeared already lived about 3 months with both in the same house (please note that this witness has also criminal involvement against various elements of the Judicial Police, even against Gonçalo Amaral, the torture of a victim who was also at the time). In fact, Carlos Alberto Pinto da Silva, currently residing at *********************, declares as follows (typos corrected):

"Declaration

I hereby Carlos Alberto Pinto da Silva, a resident of Pond Street Alfredo Keil, No. 12, 8400 Lagoa, I declare on my honor that I have lived with the missing girl Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro, in the same house with his mother Leonor and stepfather Leandro in Figueira , about 3 months and never saw his mother Leonor hitting any of the children, because when I wanted to apply a punishment was always some who never passed for assault. We also declare that the mother Leonor was a calm person and unable to become violent so be it. So believe in the declaration of innocence of Mother Leonor.

Pond June 5, 2009

Carlos Alberto Pinto da Silva. "

Another important witness corroborates: the last person that was guaranteed with Joan in public, then manager of Café Celia, where the girl was doing their last minute shopping before disappearing. Ophelia Maria Santos Glory Zeverino, residing in *****************Portimão, knew well the child and his family, not only because these are their regular customers, but also to be nearby them and also for their younger daughter named Rachel, being a good friend of Joan, and both almost the same age and playing almost every day with one another. In the original document here attached hereto, Ophelia Santos stated the following:

"Declaration

I hereby Ophelia Maria Santos Glory Zeverino, residing in District Che Lot No. 14 Figueira - Portimão, hereby declare that I who received the missing girl Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro Café "Celia" in the evening when she disappeared in September 12, 2004. He was also a neighbor of the girl, and declare that never saw the mother of Joana Maria Leonor Cipriano Sunday, beating his daughter. And I can also declare by also be true that the same girl Joana's mother always said well, even defending it in all circumstances.

Figueira June 2, 2009

Ophelia Maria Santos Zeverino Glory. "
 

We reached the largest adult friend of Joan. At the time owned the only supermarket Figueira ("Alisuper"), Nidia was Rochato the person outside the family of Joan helped more than this child, offering him food, clothes, toys, taking her to the doctor, etc.., etc.., in short, doing the job that it was for the state: to help the needy. But as the state does not socorria Joana nor his family, a kind heart and selfless moved and deleted so many difficulties with the struggling family. Perfectly cognizant of the child and their closest relatives, the Kings Rochato Nidia Maria, residing at Rua ******************Portimão, puts forward new facts through new document he wrote and signed, which original is attached to this pleading, and where you can read:

"Declaration

I hereby Nidia Maria dos Reis Rochato carrier BI No. 8641202 issued on 18/05/2005 Lisbon Street resident on April 25 Lot # *******************Portimão, hereby declare that the well-known missing girl Joana Isabel Cipriano Warrior, who I was very friendly, but also knew well his mother Leonor Cipriano Maria Domingos, so I can attest that the mother Leonor never knocked on her daughter Joan in my presence never heard that he had done so. I also declare that Joana Cipriano always well said the mother Leonor and always defended in all circumstances.
Figueira 02-June-2009

Nidia Rochato ".

So where are the statements of the neighbours that supposedly said she was a bad mother?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 13, 2013, 09:04:53 PM
STILL waiting dor mrs beee to justify why the parenta of an eight year old did nit alert the police for hours and hours and hours later, but of course she cant answer cos she knows its it utterly wrong and incrimnates th em 100 per cent at the veryvery least
 8**8:/: 8((()*/

Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 13, 2013, 09:07:43 PM
photoshopped pics of LC?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECFa07sToZg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Xclamation,  8-)(--)

Levy the love rats EX. Is there a puke smiley, on here?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 09:09:09 PM
I don't have to justify anything Leonor Cipriano did or did not do, she reported her missing the next day to police, why she didn't do it sooner, is not up to me to speculate about.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Redblossom on June 13, 2013, 09:09:40 PM
photoshopped pics of LC?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECFa07sToZg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Xclamation,  8-)(--)

Levy the love rats EX. Is there a puke smiley, on here?

YouDO need to learn to address facts and not people if you want to get to the truth
 8((()*/



Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 09:11:53 PM
photoshopped pics of LC?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECFa07sToZg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Xclamation,  8-)(--)

Levy the love rats EX. Is there a puke smiley, on here?

LOL Not that I have found. The problem with those "sources" is that you can't trust a word they say, as they've proven to be liars on several occasions.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 13, 2013, 09:16:28 PM
LOL Not that I have found. The problem with those "sources" is that you can't trust a word they say, as they've proven to be liars on several occasions.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s403x403/1013656_10151962368667166_296027122_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: DCI on June 13, 2013, 09:20:57 PM
YouDO need to learn to address facts and not people if you want to get to the truth
 8((()*/


Exposing a Swindler: The Truth About a Pathological Liar
19 June 2009 | Posted by Joana Morais

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/06/exposing-swindler-truth-about.html
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 09:25:11 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s403x403/1013656_10151962368667166_296027122_n.jpg)

True
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on June 13, 2013, 11:04:02 PM
photoshopped pics of LC?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECFa07sToZg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Xclamation,  8-)(--)

Levy the love rats EX. Is there a puke smiley, on here?

The photographic expert at her torture trial said exactly the same thing.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2013, 11:14:48 PM
The fact that  Joana's mother was feckless and inadequate,  and that the family were dysfunctional in the extreme has nothing to do with the appalling treatment meted out by the police  ...  it does, though,  give us some insight into the unstable,  and uncaring family  life little Joanna endured,  that may eventually have lead to her brutal murder

There is no sign of anything unhappy in her life.  Just the words of Amaral. or whoever he diredted to write this report
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2013, 11:16:43 PM
So what? If less than a handful of posters out of thousand said that, so what? I know what, it means its a cowardly weapon used by YOU and your cohorts  to taint every single person that doubts, pathetic at e very very best
It is you,  Red, that doubts what probably from the lack of evidence, IS THE TRUTH.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on June 13, 2013, 11:24:18 PM
Still evading by the bucket load mrs beeeeee, why did they not report their 8 yr old child missing before the next day????? Would YOU wait overnight to do it mrs beeee?
Why tell porkies Red?  More myths being produced

It is reported on here that Joana, was reported, being missing after midnight, and before 1am.

That was less than five hours after she set off on her errand for her Mum and she could well have been at a relatives or a friends house for the early period.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2014, 11:52:46 PM
The provenance of the photographs is shaky to say the least. At least one witness at Amaral's trial questioned their authenticity.

BTW sadie how many Portuguesr suspects have died in police custody ?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on August 30, 2014, 12:07:41 AM
The provenance of the photographs is shaky to say the least. At least one witness at Amaral's trial questioned their authenticity.

BTW sadie how many Portuguesr suspects have died in police custody ?
Faith I delberately didn't show the photographs that were amended by the defence in Amarala and the other 5 alleged torturers trial.


But I can remember seeing the photos of the tortured Leonor before Amarals defence team got at them with alterations.  The judge also must have seen the originals because s/he didn't believe thta they had been altered by Leonors team at all.

Anyway I will show them now

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorfotos.jpg

(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorfotos.jpg)

My memory is that the early photos before PJ defence team alterations was nearer the RH photo than any of the others.


Now an original photo in close up

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:NQ2j2emQDN5ymM:

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:NQ2j2emQDN5ymM:)

I wonder if her boobs were attacked as well?  Sadists.  I hate them for that.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on August 30, 2014, 12:12:58 AM
Faith I delberately didn't show the photographs that were amended by the defence in Amarala and the other 5 alleged torturers trial.


But I can remember seeing the photos of the tortured Leonor before Amarals defence team got at them with alterations.  The judge also must have seen the originals because s/he didn't believe thta they had been altered by Leonors team at all.

Anyway I will show them now

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorfotos.jpg

(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorfotos.jpg)

My memory is that the early photos before PJ defence team alterations was nearer the RH photo than any of the others.


Now an original photo in close up

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:NQ2j2emQDN5ymM:

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:NQ2j2emQDN5ymM:)

I wonder if her boobs were attacked as well?  Sadists.  I hate them for that.

The provenance of the photographs is questionable so nothing they show should be taken at face value.

As to your last sentence all I can say is what a bizarre and unnecessary addition to your post. Most odd !
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: faithlilly on August 30, 2014, 12:14:48 AM
But they all treated Leonor very well, because they believed, as I do, that she had been fitted up with a crime that she didn't commit.

Not according to one of Cipriano's fellow prisoners who gave evidence.
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2014, 08:08:24 AM
The court accepted she was beaten whilst in custody of the PJ..

If she was beaten by inmates why did the Pj claim she had fallen down the stairs. the evidence is overwhelming that she was beaten by the pj and your refusal to accept that fact undermines the credibility of your beliefs.Perhaps if you realised what was true and what was fault you would realise that the mccanns are innocent
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on September 06, 2014, 11:47:40 PM
The provenance of the photographs is questionable so nothing they show should be taken at face value.

As to your last sentence all I can say is what a bizarre and unnecessary addition to your post. Most odd !
I see that my responce was whooshed.

I responded that I hope her boobs were not beaten as it could cause breast cancer in later life.

now why was that whooshed?
Title: Re: The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2014, 12:01:22 AM
I see that the photos tbat I posted showing Leonors facial torture have been whooshed as well
... And I wonder why?

Does this forum want to hide the atrocities that happened in the Leonor case?

I am reposting the photos plus a couple more.  Please leave them up. 

Readers have the rights to see both sides of the Joana case .... not just the Pr0-Amaral stance.


http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/Cipriano3.jpg
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/Cipriano3.jpg)

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorexpressopics2.jpg
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorexpressopics2.jpg)

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorexpressopics3.jpg
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorexpressopics3.jpg)

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorexpressopics4.jpg
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leonorexpressopics4.jpg)