Author Topic: Strange Witness Statements  (Read 591604 times)

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Offline Brietta

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1305 on: June 04, 2015, 12:41:25 AM »
The statement says "extreme end".
IMO you can get around the extreme end but only if you go through someone's garden.

Possibly ... but I really do not think they would have done that.

Can you remember why we are having this conversation anyway?  what are we on about?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pegasus

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1306 on: June 04, 2015, 12:54:30 AM »
What I thought was a boundary wall at the back of block four is a small pathway giving access to the gardens which adjoins the wider pathway behind block five ~ no wall between.  Therefore you are correct it would be possible but I don't think they would have used that route as a matter of course.
Is there any record of them cutting through the private garden on any occasion?

I can't get in close enough to determine whether there is a gap allowing access to the garden at the end of the block, I would be surprised if there wasn't ... but I wouldn't traipse my family through private property ... and I doubt if the McCanns would.
So that gives me another reason to doubt ... public pathway perhaps ... private garden, I would say definite no no.

Looking at it on Google Earth ... it is secluded enough to make a reasonable escape route for an abductor ... like block five there are overhanging bushes and a car park.
The statement says they went that way by themselves.
Kids playing, parent following, IMO
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 12:57:12 AM by pegasus »

Offline pegasus

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1307 on: June 04, 2015, 01:27:29 AM »
Possibly ... but I really do not think they would have done that.

Can you remember why we are having this conversation anyway?  what are we on about?
It's what the witness statement says, and it's possible, so I believe the witness.
Another poster asked about this statement on another thread..
BTW your point about a west direction being  a possible escape route is interesting.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1308 on: June 04, 2015, 02:36:53 AM »
.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta2
Posted this only to answer a question by ShiningInLuz on another thread.
BTW this post is not abouit the GNR dog route, it is about child route on a previous day
Block5 groundfloor goes A to F, then block4 groundfloor goes A to F.
Everyone else will say this route of children was to go between the two blocks.
But IMO it was all the way along north side of both blocks, then around end of block4 by going through the end garden (going in someone's private front gate and out their back gate), then all the way along the alleyway along the south side of both blocks. Does this sound possible?

Block 5 floor is 5A to 5D with 5H the Payne's apartment above the O'Briens in 5D.  Block 4 seems to be a clone of block 5, but I have not confirmed this as it does not appear to be relevant.

I have visited, oddly enough to check on some of Textusa's assertions about what is and is not possible re pedestrian movement.

Block 5 car park connects to block 4 car park (for pedestrian access only) as both have access to the passage between the blocks.  (Been there, done it.)

There is a narrow passage down the west side of block 4, from the car park to the rear, beside 1 de Maio.  It is now gated off at the front.  As to when that gate went up, I do not know.  I suspect it is post-Madeleine, simply because the folks who check the utility meters at that end of the block have to go through it to read the meters i.e. it is in a 'stupid' place.

The side passage is not a child hazard re 1 de Maio.  1 de Maio is elevated re block 4 at this location and effectively forms a wall.  As it so happens, there is also a wire-mesh fence all down this side of 1 de Maio, keeping people out of the Tapas area (or more likely from falling off the drop from 1 de Maio to Tapas area and breaking their necks.)

That passageway held the flat's sunbathing loungers etc at the time I visited, so the folks consider it to be non-public.

At the rear that side passage is definitely in the back garden of block 4.  You need to use the garden gate to get to the passageway to the south of block 4 and block 5.

That side passage is NOT a short cut from the front of block 4 to the Tapas area.  It would be a long route.  Anyone interested in a short-cut from the front would walk to the passage between 4 and 5.  So there is no real need to have the passage beside 1 de Maio as a general public access area.

The passage at the rear of block 4 is roughly half the width of the same passage behind block 5.

You folks are clearly not reading my blog.  Perhaps a couple of months ago I demonstrated the passage behind block 4 (rather than block 5) was the ideal place to monitor the Tapas 9, while being shielded from their sight, then swoop, abduct, and scarper back this way to get to car park 4, into a car and off into the night.  No, I do not have proof it happened this way, merely that it makes sense and it is very easy.

Textusa has a post somewhere to the effect that one cannot get from south of the tennis courts to the car park in front of (west of) Baptista.  You can.  The car park beside Baptista/LuzTur has shops on the north side, but on the rear of those shops is a string of private houses, presumably falling within OC use.  There is a similar pedestrian passage at the west end of those houses/shops beside 1 de Maio.  In this case it is a valid short cut and open to members of the general public.

I suspect the 'errant children' tale appeared some time after the 'dog path' tale, but I have never been interested enough to check.  As the 'errant children's' tale is Gerry's and he spent 2 months in block 4, he should have recognised exactly where the children wandered.  Technically it fits the category of strange 'statement', but it does not light my fire.
What's up, old man?

Offline pegasus

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1309 on: June 04, 2015, 02:52:29 AM »
Thanks ShiningInLuz your on the spot expertise is valuable.
I think the statement is true.
I agree it is a private garden and no adult would go that way and it is a long way round..
But this was not an adult, it was children playing, running off, parent chasing after, and I think that is the way they went.

Offline pegasus

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1310 on: June 04, 2015, 12:46:06 PM »
The incident in the statement we are discussing happened on way to kidsclub so it is in a morning or just after a lunch. There was also a different incident, this one happening at a bedtime, if this news article is correct....
"locals now claim that Madeleine did not always settle well. One evening they allege she ran away into the paths between the apartments, hiding for half an hour when it was time for bed.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-and-the-missing-hour-how-often-did-the-mccanns-check-on-their-children-6605058.html

Offline Brietta

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1311 on: June 04, 2015, 02:01:39 PM »
The incident in the statement we are discussing happened on way to kidsclub so it is in a morning or just after a lunch. There was also a different incident, this one happening at a bedtime, if this news article is correct....
"locals now claim that Madeleine did not always settle well. One evening they allege she ran away into the paths between the apartments, hiding for half an hour when it was time for bed.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/madeleine-and-the-missing-hour-how-often-did-the-mccanns-check-on-their-children-6605058.html

I would place as much reliance on that as I would on all the unattributed newspaper allegations of that time ... and that is none.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Online Eleanor

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1312 on: June 04, 2015, 02:08:01 PM »
I would place as much reliance on that as I would on all the unattributed newspaper allegations of that time ... and that is none.

Nor me neither.  Unless anyone can produce a Cite.

Offline sadie

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1313 on: June 04, 2015, 02:16:58 PM »
Block 5 floor is 5A to 5D with 5H the Payne's apartment above the O'Briens in 5D.  Block 4 seems to be a clone of block 5, but I have not confirmed this as it does not appear to be relevant.

I have visited, oddly enough to check on some of Textusa's assertions about what is and is not possible re pedestrian movement.

Block 5 car park connects to block 4 car park (for pedestrian access only) as both have access to the passage between the blocks.  (Been there, done it.)

There is a narrow passage down the west side of block 4, from the car park to the rear, beside 1 de Maio.  It is now gated off at the front.  As to when that gate went up, I do not know.  I suspect it is post-Madeleine, simply because the folks who check the utility meters at that end of the block have to go through it to read the meters i.e. it is in a 'stupid' place.

The side passage is not a child hazard re 1 de Maio.  1 de Maio is elevated re block 4 at this location and effectively forms a wall.  As it so happens, there is also a wire-mesh fence all down this side of 1 de Maio, keeping people out of the Tapas area (or more likely from falling off the drop from 1 de Maio to Tapas area and breaking their necks.)

That passageway held the flat's sunbathing loungers etc at the time I visited, so the folks consider it to be non-public.

At the rear that side passage is definitely in the back garden of block 4.  You need to use the garden gate to get to the passageway to the south of block 4 and block 5.

That side passage is NOT a short cut from the front of block 4 to the Tapas area.  It would be a long route.  Anyone interested in a short-cut from the front would walk to the passage between 4 and 5.  So there is no real need to have the passage beside 1 de Maio as a general public access area.

The passage at the rear of block 4 is roughly half the width of the same passage behind block 5.

You folks are clearly not reading my blog.  Perhaps a couple of months ago I demonstrated the passage behind block 4 (rather than block 5) was the ideal place to monitor the Tapas 9, while being shielded from their sight, then swoop, abduct, and scarper back this way to get to car park 4, into a car and off into the night.  No, I do not have proof it happened this way, merely that it makes sense and it is very easy.

Textusa has a post somewhere to the effect that one cannot get from south of the tennis courts to the car park in front of (west of) Baptista.  You can.  The car park beside Baptista/LuzTur has shops on the north side, but on the rear of those shops is a string of private houses, presumably falling within OC use.  There is a similar pedestrian passage at the west end of those houses/shops beside 1 de Maio.  In this case it is a valid short cut and open to members of the general public.

I suspect the 'errant children' tale appeared some time after the 'dog path' tale, but I have never been interested enough to check.  As the 'errant children's' tale is Gerry's and he spent 2 months in block 4, he should have recognised exactly where the children wandered.  Technically it fits the category of strange 'statement', but it does not light my fire.
8@??)(
Well done Shining.  A lot of hard work has gone into that ... and you identified one passageway that I wasn't aware of [from the SE corner of the tennis courts.



Like you, I did think of the eastern end of the alleyway behind block 4.

I liked the fact that this point had views of the Tapas restaurant and access to the front of 5A and the car parks.  Also it was dark there and it was a junction with three alleyways to hide if anyone came along, [altho it might have been difficult to judge which route they were likely to take]


What I didn't like was that alleyway junction is quite a distance from the tapas bar ... and the watcher / abductor would have had to recognise walking people he didn't really know, from 32 metres [105ft] distance.  That is quite a distance after dark to recognise strangers from a half back view. [I am presuming that they emerged from the eastern end of the Tapas restaurant.]

Altho it is possible that he could have recognised them sitting down.  Kate and Gerry had their backs more or less to him, I think. 



It is an option worth considering, but...
 
I prefer the balcony immediately across the road from 5A, because everyone had to walk by that .... and it is only a maxm of 12 metres [40 ft] from where everyone walked ... and moderately illuminated.

In addition anyone there could see in virtually every direction that peeps could come to catch them "at-it". 



Offline pegasus

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1314 on: June 04, 2015, 02:46:46 PM »
A first step in investigation.
If a person goes somewhere it will probably be to a place they know, not a place they have never been.

Offline sadie

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1315 on: June 04, 2015, 02:49:36 PM »
A first step in investigation.
If a person goes somewhere it will probably be to a place they know, not a place they have never been.

Now what do you mean by that?

Offline pegasus

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1316 on: June 04, 2015, 03:05:48 PM »
Now what do you mean by that?
The group searched along the route between apartment and kidsclub because they thought the child might have wandered, and this was a route the child knew from experience.

This is good investigative logic - it has solved cases.

The statement posted describes a different route the child went on. Following the same logic, this route known from experience might be taken if wandering.

Offline Brietta

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1317 on: June 04, 2015, 05:48:00 PM »
The group searched along the route between apartment and kidsclub because they thought the child might have wandered, and this was a route the child knew from experience.

This is good investigative logic - it has solved cases.

The statement posted describes a different route the child went on. Following the same logic, this route known from experience might be taken if wandering.


You raise a good point about the areas searched but unfortunately we will never really know.  The fact that in the early days the British police were asking for civilians who may have assisted in the searches for Madeleine on the night of her disappearance suggests no record of either participants or areas searched was collated.

I think this was inefficient use of resources and an under evaluation of the assistance given.



BRITISH HOLIDAY MAKERS ASKED BY POLICE TO HELP FURTHER WITH HUNT FOR MADELEINE MCCANN

Anne Harrison, Detective Chief Superintendent from the NPIA said

“We also want anyone who took part in the initial search for Madeleine that took place before the Portuguese police arrived at the scene of her abduction but who have not yet come forward to contact us on 0800 096 1233.”
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/press_release-ceop.pdf
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1318 on: June 04, 2015, 06:36:17 PM »

You raise a good point about the areas searched but unfortunately we will never really know.  The fact that in the early days the British police were asking for civilians who may have assisted in the searches for Madeleine on the night of her disappearance suggests no record of either participants or areas searched was collated.

I think this was inefficient use of resources and an under evaluation of the assistance given.



BRITISH HOLIDAY MAKERS ASKED BY POLICE TO HELP FURTHER WITH HUNT FOR MADELEINE MCCANN

Anne Harrison, Detective Chief Superintendent from the NPIA said

“We also want anyone who took part in the initial search for Madeleine that took place before the Portuguese police arrived at the scene of her abduction but who have not yet come forward to contact us on 0800 096 1233.”
https://madeleinemccannthetruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/press_release-ceop.pdf

Who was supposed to collate a list of searchers before the police arrived then? Mark Warner? The parents? Or was that the first job the police should have done, asked everyone on the streets for their names, contact details and areas searched?
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Offline pegasus

Re: Strange Witness Statements
« Reply #1319 on: June 04, 2015, 07:22:52 PM »
Date: 01 August 2007 - 06h00
Report: Inspection of the surrounding areas.
After evaluation of the area surrounding the Ocean Club tourist village, based in Praia da Luz, taking account of the characteristic topography of the ground and the distance from where the small child Madeleine McCann disappeared, an inspection was carried out with the help of dogs specialised in the detection of cadaver odour, in various places, such as described:
1 - At 06h40, an area between the "Piteira" road and the "Oliveira" road, was inspected. At 07h15 the inspection was completed with nothing being detected by the dogs.
2 - At 07h25, an area adjacent to the "BEIJAFLOR" property on the "Figueira," road, defined by the "Ramalhete" road. An inspection of the whole area was made and nothing abnormal was noted. The inspection was completed at 07h45.
3 - At 07h55, an area between the "Casa Azul" residence on the "Figueira" road and the "Casa Pandora" residence as well as a dirt road on the left of the "Figueira" road was inspected by the dogs without anything abnormal being noted. The inspection ended at 08h05.
4 - At 08h20, an area between the residences "Casa Pandora" on the "Figueira" road, "Quinta Mimosa" and "Casa Ladeira" without anything abnormal being noted. The inspection ended at 08h40.
A photographic report of the places inspected is attached.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html

These are scrubland areas searched by Eddie early on 1st Aug 2007. Strange is every one of these areas is IMO fitting the sighting of the man walking across the T junction. They are north east. No alerts.

There is another scrubland area much closer to the crime scene but was left out of this Eddie search, IMO because it was exactly the wrong direction to fit the T junction sighting. It is just over the road from the alleyway end.

Like the other statement we are discussing, it is west from apartment.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 07:27:48 PM by pegasus »