Author Topic: Brexit and Moral Obligations.  (Read 22915 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #135 on: February 26, 2019, 09:55:07 AM »
I think we should have got a deal which would have eventually left us better off... It depends now whether we capitulate to Brussels and accept they control us or stand firm and leave...

I've just read up the page. I promise I hadn't seen Vertigo's post before hitting submit on my own LOL

What type of deal do you envisage that would leave the UK better off?




Offline Carana

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #136 on: February 26, 2019, 09:58:55 AM »
The Moral Maze discussed the moral duty of MP's. Melanie Phillips put the case that I have been making; that MP's moral duty is to keep their promises. They promised to abide by the result of the Brexit referendum and they should do it. Some MP's, she said, are trying to reverse the result of the referendim while pretending that's not what they are doing. She, like me, sees that as dishonest and immoral.

There followed a lot of discussion about sovereignty, where power ultimarely lies, what MP's are entitled to do and so on. In my opinion none of it was able to answer or negate Phillip's point because her point is bery clear and very simple. There's no excuse for breaking your promises!!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0002828

But what do you do when the promises that leaving was supposed to achieve aren't deliverable?

Offline Eleanor

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #137 on: February 26, 2019, 09:59:59 AM »
I'm not sure what a "good deal" actually is.

A problem, IMO, is that there is no Brexit scenario that won't leave the UK worse off economically. Some may not be aware of that or else feel that that is a price worth paying for perceived other benefits.

- One I often hear mentioned is freedom from having EU regulations "imposed" by "unelected bureaucrats in Brussels", often shortened to simply "Brussels", a view widely fanned by the tabloids. I'd be interested in finding out what percentage of people understand how the EU works and the considerable influence that the UK has had in establishing EU laws.

A well-balanced report from Full Fact:
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/

Even in the least bad Brexit scenario, the UK will end up being rule-takers instead of contributing as rule-makers.

- Another is over what I hear being called "illegal immigrants" scrounging off the welfare system. The general EU policy on FOM is clear and I've posted it more than once. And the reality is that EU migrants have made a substantial net contribution to the economy, far beyond any benefits they were entitled to.

A slightly different issue is that there was a problem with companies getting around the system and bringing in cheap labour from the poorer EU countries, thus undermining jobs for businesses paying normal wages. That was by no means confined to practices in the UK and the issue was addressed by the EU back in 2016 (IIRC).

The Brussels Bureaucrats cannot force me to upgrade my Septic Tank.  They have been trying since 2007.  I now pay France an extra 28 Euros a year for ignoring their suggestions.  This saves me from having my garden wrecked, at a cost of about 8 Thousand Euros, which I haven't got.  I spent it on a new roof.

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #138 on: February 26, 2019, 10:01:09 AM »
The Brussels Bureaucrats cannot force me to upgrade my Septic Tank.  They have been trying since 2007.  I now pay France an extra 28 Euros a year for ignoring their suggestions.  This saves me from having my garden wrecked, at a cost of about 8 Thousand Euros, which I haven't got.  I spent it on a new roof.

 @)(++(*

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #139 on: February 26, 2019, 10:04:38 AM »
I get most of that from The Food Bank, and have a large stock already.  The Food Bank is mostly funded by The EU, so British Food Banks almost certainly are as well.
The only difference is that there is no shame here.

The EU offer to help fund food banks in the UK was derided by the Express (?) as being patronising. Heads or tails, the tabloids will twist anything into stoking up anti-EU sentiment.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #140 on: February 26, 2019, 10:19:13 AM »
The EU offer to help fund food banks in the UK was derided by the Express (?) as being patronising. Heads or tails, the tabloids will twist anything into stoking up anti-EU sentiment.

What?  It's like a Special Club here.  Everyone has a lovely time chatting.  I suspect that I am a bit of a bonus to our Club, being English.  And I certainly eat a lot better than I could afford to pay for.

And you only have to be poverty stricken, which The British State Pension is considered to be.  Shock, Horror, in fact.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #141 on: February 26, 2019, 10:23:35 AM »
I'm not sure what a "good deal" actually is.

A problem, IMO, is that there is no Brexit scenario that won't leave the UK worse off economically. Some may not be aware of that or else feel that that is a price worth paying for perceived other benefits.

- One I often hear mentioned is freedom from having EU regulations "imposed" by "unelected bureaucrats in Brussels", often shortened to simply "Brussels", a view widely fanned by the tabloids. I'd be interested in finding out what percentage of people understand how the EU works and the considerable influence that the UK has had in establishing EU laws.

A well-balanced report from Full Fact:
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/

Even in the least bad Brexit scenario, the UK will end up being rule-takers instead of contributing as rule-makers.

- Another is over what I hear being called "illegal immigrants" scrounging off the welfare system. The general EU policy on FOM is clear and I've posted it more than once. And the reality is that EU migrants have made a substantial net contribution to the economy, far beyond any benefits they were entitled to.

A slightly different issue is that there was a problem with companies getting around the system and bringing in cheap labour from the poorer EU countries, thus undermining jobs for businesses paying normal wages. That was by no means confined to practices in the UK and the issue was addressed by the EU back in 2016 (IIRC).

I'm not sure how convincing your figures, are

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #142 on: February 26, 2019, 10:32:53 AM »
I've just read up the page. I promise I hadn't seen Vertigo's post before hitting submit on my own LOL

What type of deal do you envisage that would leave the UK better off?

A Canada type deal

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #143 on: February 26, 2019, 10:33:40 AM »
I'm not sure how convincing your figures, are

I haven't mentioned any. I just pointed to a Full Fact report. Not sure which figures you're questioning.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #144 on: February 26, 2019, 10:47:52 AM »

Britain didn't join The Monetary Union, which I think it should have done if it really wanted to benefit.  Or Britain shouldn't have joined at all.

But I don't expect this opinion to be popular.

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #145 on: February 26, 2019, 10:57:02 AM »
A Canada type deal


A problem with that it's limited, involves a variety of non-tariff barriers, with limited movement in services, and more importantly politically, border inspections.
https://fullfact.org/europe/brexit-trade-deals-norway-canada-options/

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #146 on: February 26, 2019, 12:30:59 PM »
The EU offer to help fund food banks in the UK was derided by the Express (?) as being patronising. Heads or tails, the tabloids will twist anything into stoking up anti-EU sentiment.

The tabloids have criticised the EU for years. I remember the fuss about the curve on bananas, wine ;akes and butter mountains. Then our Prime Ministers have tried to get better deals, with Thatcher being the only one who suceeded with her rebate win. EU citizens have been portrayed as criminals or just here to take our state benefits. Then people wonder why the population isn't keen on EU membership.
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #147 on: February 26, 2019, 12:42:28 PM »
The tabloids have criticised the EU for years. I remember the fuss about the curve on bananas, wine ;akes and butter mountains. Then our Prime Ministers have tried to get better deals, with Thatcher being the only one who suceeded with her rebate win. EU citizens have been portrayed as criminals or just here to take our state benefits. Then people wonder why the population isn't keen on EU membership.

Cui bono?

There's a whole compendium of anti-EU myths (or at best misleading articles) and which is probably no longerr up to date, but gives a fair idea of the nature and often the source. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10337.0


Offline Carana

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #148 on: February 26, 2019, 12:48:00 PM »

Sky News Politics
‏Verified account @SkyNewsPolitics

Former UKIP leader @Nigel_Farage says he would refuse to vote and campaign if a second referendum gives the options of the PM's deal or remaining in the EU.

He says instead he'll go "on holiday".


https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/status/1100337822215688193

From the guy who never had a seat in the UK Parliament, and to my knowledge, has never had a more concrete plan that repeating "Brexit means Brexit".

Does he seriously have the interests of the UK at heart, or is he just all about promoting the Farage "brand" via soundbites, like Trump?

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit and Moral Obligations.
« Reply #149 on: February 26, 2019, 12:57:24 PM »
Breitbart keeps trying to take down the clip of Farage, drinking his ubiquitous pint, saying just after the ref results came in: "Well done Bannon, well done Breitbart. You've helped with this HUGELY".

https://twitter.com/TrickFreee/status/982171839823687680