Could the Rettendon Two be a potential MoJ.

[rotti]

If he was the there then your version of events is true as that is what he said happens. However I don't believe he was, It looks to me like pat was shot through the glass window from his left then very soon after the other assassin shoots him in the ribs to his right or it could be the other way round but in a very short period of time. I don't think there was any talking and they all barely knew what hit them

all were executed with headshots.therefor it makes no sense to shoot tate in stomach if he had already been shot in the head .if the head shot was first the next shots would also be to the head just like tucker and Rolfe.no i think Tate's first shot was stomach in the few seconds it took to kill the front 2 .Tate might have tryed to make some sought of move on the gun .and killer didnt want that.so he was quickly shot in stomach first to immobilise him

[sika]

Bernard O'mahoney had no connections to Steele, Whomes or Nicholls.  Furthermore, there was no telephone traffic between O'mahoney and the three.  O'mahoney had allegedly received a warning from the Police that his life had been threatened by TT&R.  However, O'mahoney has for twenty years now, sought to cash in on the whole saga, over egging his involvement and claiming to have inside information.  His words cannot be trusted.  For years, he vehemently claimed that Steele & Whomes were innocent, before revealing last week, that he knew all along, they were guilty!

He has very recently made one last desperate attempt to squeeze a few more quid out of the story.  He justifiys doing this by claiming that enough lives have been ruined and it has become immoral!! It just so happens that his decision to do this, coincides with the 20 year anniversary of the murders!!

Don't get me wrong, good luck to him, there are far worse ways to make a living.  I actually owe him a great debt.  His web site contained hundreds of pages of statements and court transcripts, which build a very clear story as to what exactly happened, before, during and after the murders.  Having read through all of this information, I was left in absolutely no doubt whatsoever, that the Police had the right men.

[rotti]

Bernard Imagine had no connections to Steele, Whomes or Nichol ls.  Furthermore, there was no telephone traffic between Imagine and the three.  Imagine had allegedly received a warning from the Police that his life had been threatened by TT&R.  However, O'mahoney has for twenty years now, sought to cash in on the whole saga, over egging his involvement and claiming to have inside information.  His words cannot be trusted.  For years, he vehemently claimed that Steele & Whomes were innocent, before revealing last week, that he knew all along, they were guilty!

He has very recently made one last desperate attempt to squeeze a few more quid out of the story.  He justifiys doing this by claiming that enough lives have been ruined and it has become immoral!! It just so happens that his decision to do this, coincides with the 20 year anniversary of the murders!!

Don't get me wrong, good luck to him, there are far worse ways to make a living.  I actually owe him a great debt.  His web site contained hundreds of pages of statements and court transcripts, which build a very clear story as to what exactly happened, before, during and after the murders.  Having read through all of this information, I was left in absolutely no doubt whatsoever, that the Police had the right men.

his own words were when tucker told him not to deal with the police about telling them where the E tab had come from.when he refused tucker said iam going to f--k do you .you dont threaten him and getaway with it .a man who ambushed and had fire fights with IRA members.why would he make up the story of the cartridge he found.or the hand print of his .he told police he had touched the range rover just above drivers door .would a person experienced in guns panic if he found a cartridge at a previous crime scene and throw it .NO.if he had nothing to do with it he would have taken the cartridge to the police .he says hes a villain but is not partial to helping police.as the great Danny woolard said .you dont help the police you tell em f--k all

[rotti]

Bernard O'mahoney had no connections to Steele, Whomes or Nicholls.  Furthermore, there was no telephone traffic between O'mahoney and the three.  O'mahoney had allegedly received a warning from the Police that his life had been threatened by TT&R.  However, O'mahoney has for twenty years now, sought to cash in on the whole saga, over egging his involvement and claiming to have inside information.  His words cannot be trusted.  For years, he vehemently claimed that Steele & Whomes were innocent, before revealing last week, that he knew all along, they were guilty!

He has very recently made one last desperate attempt to squeeze a few more quid out of the story.  He justifiys doing this by claiming that enough lives have been ruined and it has become immoral!! It just so happens that his decision to do this, coincides with the 20 year anniversary of the murders!!

Don't get me wrong, good luck to him, there are far worse ways to make a living.  I actually owe him a great debt.  His web site contained hundreds of pages of statements and court transcripts, which build a very clear story as to what exactly happened, before, during and after the murders.  Having read through all of this information, I was left in absolutely no doubt whatsoever, that the Police had the right men.

omahoneys own words while at the hospital after nipper had shot tate nicolls was present so they did know eachother.also this is when tate asked omah to help set up nipper.

[david1819]

yea you could be right dave.i live in east london and a few top tier villians suggest he was .plus his own bragging.him and his family were in a hotel about a mile away those are his own words.i think they had a few words with tate before they finished him.i know what i would have said to Tate .when you f--k with the wrong people this is what you get .bang.

Top tier Villians by into rumors like anyone else does. When people brag specially on TV its a good indicator it never happened or its a gross fabrication to the point of lying, I grew up in West Essex now live in east London, I know several people via my dad and granddad people now in their 70s to 90s who were involved in organised crime working with people like the Kray twins and god knows who else, Thing is they never talk about it and rarely go into detail about what they got up to its as if they are ashamed of it, I think that sais allot really. Hence why I don't think much of those that tell the world about their alleged amazing action packed gangster adventures in books TVs and films.

Back to the Range Rover shooting. In my scenario you must bare in mind that its dark and the would be assassins will have their adrenaline pumping as its about to kick off they may even be on drugs also.

I think the two would be assassins approached the car from both sides, One shoots pat in the head through the glass then the other assassin shoots pat in the ribs a second or two after he has shot Rolfe and Tucker, Not realising it was not really needed. Taking time to talk to Patrick Tate would be a huge risk for the killers he could have had a 9mm pistol in his jacket handy for all they know or being at such close range he could have grabbed one of the shot gun barrels putting the entire plan in jeopardy.

Also I think the extra shots to Tucker and Rolfe may indicate they were more hated than Patrick was, Rise of the footsoilder overplayed patricks reputation, Allot of people said nice things about Pat Tate and that he was an alright guy when he was in legit business it all seemed to spiral down when he began using drugs and got involved with Tucker and Omahoney. I cant recall anyone saying nice things about Tucker and Rolfe seems they were career criminals from day one. So lets not assume Pat was the most hated to the point they needed a word before they shot him.

[sika]

omahoneys own words while at the hospital after nipper had shot tate nicolls was present so they did know eachother.also this is when tate asked omah to help set up nipper.

It was not O'mahoney at the hospital with Nicholls.  He is quoting Tates friend and business associate, Barry Dorman.

As far as I'm aware, O'mahoney has never claimed to have met Steele, Nicholls or Whomes.

[rotti]

It was not O'mahoney at the hospital with Nicholls.  He is quoting Tates friend and business associate, Barry Dorman.

As far as I'm aware, O'mahoney has never claimed to have met Steele, Nicholls or Whomes.

true.but give me one good reason why bernie would make a statement about finding the shotgun cartridge which may have his print on it.if he wasnt there .why make yourself a suspect if you had nothing to do with it .he has no alibi for the evening of the murders his story about being at hotel on evening of the murders was not investigated.it would be getting dark about 5pm on that evening he could have easily walked the distance to  the crime scene through fields and not be seen.police did find footprints in the snow in a field.but you are right the stories he is telling like the phone call threat from tucker cannot be proven.and should be taken with a pinch of salt.the statement he makes about approaching tuckers bouncer friend and telling him he had nothing to do with the murders.also sounds dubious.but if he did. it was to counter any words tucker might have told his Friend about what he is going to do to police helper bernie

[rotti]

Top tier Villians by into rumors like anyone else does. When people brag specially on TV its a good indicator it never happened or its a gross fabrication to the point of lying, I grew up in West Essex now live in east London, I know several people via my dad and granddad people now in their 70s to 90s who were involved in organised crime working with people like the Kray twins and god knows who else, Thing is they never talk about it and rarely go into detail about what they got up to its as if they are ashamed of it, I think that sais allot really. Hence why I don't think much of those that tell the world about their alleged amazing action packed gangster adventures in books TVs and films.

Back to the Range Rover shooting. In my scenario you must bare in mind that its dark and the would be assassins will have their adrenaline pumping as its about to kick off they may even be on drugs also.

I think the two would be assassins approached the car from both sides, One shoots pat in the head through the glass then the other assassin shoots pat in the ribs a second or two after he has shot Rolfe and Tucker, Not realising it was not really needed. Taking time to talk to Patrick Tate would be a huge risk for the killers he could have had a 9mm pistol in his jacket handy for all they know or being at such close range he could have grabbed one of the shot gun barrels putting the entire plan in jeopardy.

Also I think the extra shots to Tucker and Rolfe may indicate they were more hated than Patrick was, Rise of the footsoilder overplayed patricks reputation, Allot of people said nice things about Pat Tate and that he was an alright guy when he was in legit business it all seemed to spiral down when he began using drugs and got involved with Tucker and Omahoney. I cant recall anyone saying nice things about Tucker and Rolfe seems they were career criminals from day one. So lets not assume Pat was the most hated to the point they needed a word before they shot him.

adrenalin would be pumping yes .but i dont think saying a few words which would take 30 seconds would put them in any more  danger they chose the site well people around that site were used to hearing gunshots.also after being shot in the stomach first. Tate would not be reaching for any pistol and if he had then the headshot through the glass would have been fired.Tate may have had a weapon because of being shot by nipper. but he would be taking a big risk he would immediately be recalled to prison.also i dont think tates gang had any guns on them that evening.one has to remmember the only person to have been told where and what the gang was doing that evening was rolfes girlfriend.and she clearly says it was to look at a landing site .not rob a plane .hence they may not have been armed .police were pro active in disturbing the activities of criminals just after betts death.i dont think they would be driving around with guns

[Holly Goodhead]

David some questions for you:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8987.msg427042.html#msg427042

Did you find the above WS on a facebook page?

I've only read it quickly but the end doesn't make much sense?!  DJ was apparently to be ready for the meal at Romford by 1900 hours.  The drive from Grays to Romford is about 30 mins (I know the area well as my bezzie lives in Brentwood).  The restaurant was booked for 2000 hours.  CR wanted DJ to have something new to wear so took her to Lakeside at 1745 hours.  This is about a 5 min drive from the home of CR/DJ in Chafford Hundred.  If the night out was such a new outfit was required I'm assuming DJ would want to scrub up, do her hair and make-up.  Was CR going to pick up DJ from Lakeside complete with new outfit which she would change into at Lakeside or was she going to nip home to change having scrubbed up and done her hair/make-up earlier?  I can't see any woman, let alone one from Essex, buying an outfit, scrubbing up, hair, make-up in 1 1/4 hour less a bit of travel time from home to Lakeside.

The journey time from Lakeside to Rettendon is 30mins.  So if CR was due to pick up DJ at 1900 hours he had virtually no time to do anything at Rettendon.  Bearing in mind he had to also pick up Tucker (as planned) and it seems Tate too.   

CR/DJ had a young daughter no talk of babysitter. 

CR dropped DJ at Lakeside.  Not clear what time he was picking her up but assuming he was due to pick her up when he didn't arrive I assume she was making numerous calls to CR and his associates to discover his whereabouts?  How did she eventually get home?

CR's car was recorded on CCTV around Lakeside at 1800 hours.

Steele was considered intelligent.  An engineer by trade/profession.  He piloted planes and drove boats across the channel so someone competent in navigation/signals etc.  Was he likely to incriminate himself by allowing Whomes to use a mobile which could be traced to the pair?  He would surely know how mobiles worked? 

You say if Whomes was in the pub why wasn't he seen?  Was he actually inside the pub or in the pub's car park?

Was the car Nicholls was driving picked up on CCTV in the vicinity? 

It had been snowing with the ground wet.  I understand footprints found at the scene were compatible with a size 7.  Whomes was a size 11 (I think but certainly much larger than 7).  I don't know Steele's size. 

The farmer and his builder friend said the windows were clear but the detectives said they were misted up or vice-versa I can't recall now.  Misting inside cars is caused by condensation ie warm air colliding with cold surfaces.  I guess it would take a while until the bodies cooled despite the cold outside temp.  Assuming they died around 1900 hours and it seems they were found around 0800 hours the bodies would be cold but don't know how long any condensation would take to clear?

The farmer and builder said they were mindful of not touching the vehicle as they owned guns and could be in the frame but said they tapped the window.

The farm was over 300 acres so I assume a light aircraft could land and take-off without alerting the farmer?

The planned meal was for 6: CR/DJ, Tate, Tucker and their girlfriends.  When they didn't turn up the girlfriends must have been calling mobiles which if connected with voicemails would show their approx location from towers? 

The phone evidence seems to be on Whomes making a call what about Nicholls position when he received?

It was potentially a way for someone to take out all 5: 3 murdered and incriminate 2 resulting in life sentences.     

[Holly Goodhead]

David just checked the routes:

Lakeside to Tucker's (Fobbing) = 25 mins

Fobbing to Rettendon = 22 mins

Rettendon to Lakeside = 33 mins

I haven't factored in picking up Tate.

Total 80 mins (1 hour, 20 mins)  DJ said CR dropped her off at Lakeside at 1745 hours and they were due to depart for Romford at 1900 hours.  CR's Range Rover was picked up on CCTV at Lakeside at 1800 hours.  The times don't stack up. 

[Holly Goodhead]

David as we know Tate and Tucker were huge units.  I don't know CR's build.  The body takes a while to cool post death meanwhile 3 guys, at least 2 huge, in the Range Rover misting up the windows.  The weather conditions at the time were such I think the mist/condensation would turn to ice so how come the windows were supposedly clear?  The farmer and his builder friend said they could see in clearly?  The farmer said he was surprised how little blood had spilled given his knowledge of shotguns.  How would he be in a position to see clearly if the windows were iced up inside and if they weren't iced up why not? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOb7ksC-NJ8

[Holly Goodhead]

David are you coming out to play with Holly? 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2006/195.html

Points 46 and 47:

Nor is this all, for a cell site can only accept and process so many calls at one time. Each cell site has only so many available channels; if all the channels on the cell site are being used by other callers, then the computers will automatically switch the call to another cell site; thus whether a call is routed to one cell site or another will be affected by the volume of telephone traffic at that particular time. Volume of telephone traffic is peculiarly variable and unpredictable, but is often at its heaviest during the evening rush hour.  ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE'S SNOW AND 20 MILE TRAFFIC JAMS.   

There are many other factors which can have some effect, for example, atmospheric conditions, ionization, ice crystals in the air, falling rain or lack of summer foliage but these are not significant factors in this case and do not warrant further attention.  REALLY 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOb7ksC-NJ8

The traffic and weather were manic on 6th Dec 1995 due to snow.  The cells cover 35 miles.  Imagine the phone traffic due to road traffic in the area of Rettendon which is some 26 miles from Dartford crossing. 

My only interest in the case is getting info out of Steele re the black market potential for WHF growing opium poppies   

[Caroline]

David are you coming out to play with Holly? 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2006/195.html

Points 46 and 47:

Nor is this all, for a cell site can only accept and process so many calls at one time. Each cell site has only so many available channels; if all the channels on the cell site are being used by other callers, then the computers will automatically switch the call to another cell site; thus whether a call is routed to one cell site or another will be affected by the volume of telephone traffic at that particular time. Volume of telephone traffic is peculiarly variable and unpredictable, but is often at its heaviest during the evening rush hour.  ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE'S SNOW AND 20 MILE TRAFFIC JAMS.   

There are many other factors which can have some effect, for example, atmospheric conditions, ionization, ice crystals in the air, falling rain or lack of summer foliage but these are not significant factors in this case and do not warrant further attention.  REALLY 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOb7ksC-NJ8

The traffic and weather were manic on 6th Dec 1995 due to snow.  The cells cover 35 miles.  Imagine the phone traffic due to road traffic in the area of Rettendon which is some 26 miles from Dartford crossing. 

My only interest in the case is getting info out of Steele re the black market potential for WHF growing opium poppies  

Huh?

[Holly Goodhead]

Huh?

Steele was supposedly the brains behind importing drugs from Holland to Essex.  I think someone like him would be well placed to advise on the potential of a farm in Essex growing opium poppies for the black market.  The following vid about the crime family Blundell show how a farm was purchased and then used as a manufacturing plant for amphetamines.  It also touches on the location in terms of landing light aircraft, access to Channel, gateway to Europe.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3uj5vZZCphw

Just in my local Costa and 2 cops walked in on a break I assume.  Took the opportunity of putting my theory to them about the opium poppies and they thought it was a possibility 30 years ago but not today as people are too nosey.       

[Holly Goodhead]

David are you coming out to play with Holly? 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2006/195.html

Points 46 and 47:

Nor is this all, for a cell site can only accept and process so many calls at one time. Each cell site has only so many available channels; if all the channels on the cell site are being used by other callers, then the computers will automatically switch the call to another cell site; thus whether a call is routed to one cell site or another will be affected by the volume of telephone traffic at that particular time. Volume of telephone traffic is peculiarly variable and unpredictable, but is often at its heaviest during the evening rush hour.  ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE'S SNOW AND 20 MILE TRAFFIC JAMS.   

There are many other factors which can have some effect, for example, atmospheric conditions, ionization, ice crystals in the air, falling rain or lack of summer foliage but these are not significant factors in this case and do not warrant further attention.  REALLY 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOb7ksC-NJ8

The traffic and weather were manic on 6th Dec 1995 due to snow.  The cells cover 35 miles.  Imagine the phone traffic due to road traffic in the area of Rettendon which is some 26 miles from Dartford crossing. 

My only interest in the case is getting info out of Steele re the black market potential for WHF growing opium poppies   

David I'm struggling to understand why you see Nicholls testimony as reliable but not JM's?

There's nothing in Nicholls testimony that wasn't known to others including the police.