UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Nicholas on April 05, 2018, 11:54:27 AM
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Why has Bamber campaigned to say he isn't a psychopath?
I still say a brain scan will conclude this case once and for all. Neuroscientific evidence has been used in numerous cases, in particular, to show "dangerousness and risk." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5034405/#!po=23.0337
Bamber claims he is innocent and is not a psychopath - he's made these claims for decades.
I say - prove it - let's see your brain scans. Maybe the Crown will seek to address this in the near future?
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I still say a brain scan will conclude this case once and for all. Neuroscientific evidence has been used in numerous cases, in particular, to show "dangerousness and risk." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5034405/#!po=23.0337
Bamber claims he is innocent and is not a psychopath - he's made these claims for decades.
I say - prove it - let's see your brain scans. Maybe the Crown will seek to address this in the near future?
It's ironic, is it not, that he seems to think he has the right to Sheila's medical records, but refuses to allow his own to be seen?
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It's ironic, is it not, that he seems to think he has the right to Sheila's medical records, but refuses to allow his own to be seen?
Isn't it just April. He sees himself as omnipotent.
It's fairly easy to start a petition to lobby government to push for this case to be closed once and for all by a brain scan. https://www.gov.uk/petition-government
https://newatlas.com/psychopath-brain-mri-study/50365/
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It's ironic, is it not, that he seems to think he has the right to Sheila's medical records, but refuses to allow his own to be seen?
Where's the evidence for this? If the police and prosecutors wanted access to JB's medi records they could obtain them without JB's permission with a warrant.
What would anyone expect to find on his medi records? He was a 24 year old man and there's no evidence he had any mental or physical health issues.
SC had a long history of mental illness and was taking prescribed medication for such. SC's mental health issues are at the heart of the case. Mind you I can't see what further evidence her records could be expected to provide.
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Where's the evidence for this? If the police and prosecutors wanted access to JB's medi records they could obtain them without JB's permission with a warrant.
What would anyone expect to find on his medi records? He was a 24 year old man and there's no evidence he had any mental or physical health issues.
SC had a long history of mental illness and was taking prescribed medication for such. SC's mental health issues are at the heart of the case. Mind you I can't see what further evidence her records could be expected to provide.
He's been convicted for over 3 decades Holly. You appear to be referring to recent literature? Why don't you find out the facts concerning Bambers medical records, before you get ahead of yourself and claim "Sheila is at the heart of the case?"
I thought you said at the heart of this case/conviction is the sound moderator and blood tests etc? http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9339.msg455513#msg455513 "IMO previous appeals and CCRC applications have failed as they don't strike at the heart of the conviction which is to unequivocally undermine the blood/silencer evidence and argue it was fabricated evidence
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Where's the evidence for this? If the police and prosecutors wanted access to JB's medi records they could obtain them without JB's permission with a warrant.
What would anyone expect to find on his medi records? He was a 24 year old man and there's no evidence he had any mental or physical health issues.
SC had a long history of mental illness and was taking prescribed medication for such. SC's mental health issues are at the heart of the case. Mind you I can't see what further evidence her records could be expected to provide.
Evidence wasn't used in court regarding Bambers mental health? Maybe that's why there's no evidence?
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He's been convicted for over 3 decades Holly. You appear to be referring to recent literature? Why don't you find out the facts concerning Bambers medical records, before you get ahead of yourself and claiming your opinion os that "Sheila is at the heart of the case?"
I thought you said this case rests on the sound moderator and blood tests etc?
Is there any evidence JB has refused anyone access to his medi records?
I didn't say SC's at the heart of the case. I said SC's mental health issues are at the heart of the case. This isn't my opinion it's a fact. Either JB is guilty as the prosecution claim with the probable motive being his inheritance and hatred of his adoptive family. Or SC murdered her family and took her own life as the defence claim due to her mental illness.
The silencer and blood need completely undermining for an acquittal.
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Evidence wasn't used in court regarding Bambers mental health? Maybe that's why there's no evidence?
And maybe there's no evidence because he didn't have any mental health issues.
The Bamber family of 4 was created by adoption with SC and JB hailing from different birth families ie no shared genes. June and SC had long histories of mental illness. 2 out of 4 is statistically unusually. What would be the chances of 3 out of 4? I believe the stats show 1 person in 4 will suffer a mental health issue every year. In the Bamber family we have a concentrated cluster at 2 out of 4 let alone 3 out of 4. Either way the stats suggest there's something more at play here. Especially given the Bambers were very much middle class ie not tearing their hair out wondering how they're going to fund the elec. meter and divide a can of beans 4 ways.
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And maybe there's no evidence because he didn't have any mental health issues.
Can you as mod split a thread Holly - only I don't want to be seen as taking over this one!
Why has Bamber campaigned to say he isn't a psychopath? Why go to all the bother of presenting the public with the results of his annual tests?
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Is this ok Stephanie?
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And maybe there's no evidence because he didn't have any mental health issues.
The Bamber family of 4 was created by adoption with SC and JB hailing from different birth families ie no shared genes. June and SC had long histories of mental illness. 2 out of 4 is statistically unusually. What would be the chances of 3 out of 4? I believe the stats show 1 person in 4 will suffer a mental health issue every year. In the Bamber family we have a concentrated cluster at 2 out of 4 let alone 3 out of 4. Either way the stats suggest there's something more at play here. Especially given the Bambers were very much middle class ie not tearing their hair out wondering how they're going to fund the elec. meter and divide a can of beans 4 ways.
You may -or not- recall that I've previously wondered what were the chances of adopting two genetically unrelated children who both become afflicted with forms of mental illness/personality disorders, albeit, I'm aware that a PD isn't a mental illness. It comes as no surprise to me. It may not have been so much about the Bambers attempting to slot them into holes which didn't fit their personalities, so much as them feeling they HAD to force themselves into those holes, possibly resulting in neither of them knowing who they were and where they fitted.
If there is no evidence of Jeremy having any kind of mental abnormality/brain injury, it seems strange that he hasn't produced the evidence as a way of silencing those who say the crime was committed because of such. Surely it would be in his favour?
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Comments from the psychologists who contributed to the docu/dramas are as follows. I would imagine this is part of the reason JB likes to assert he's not a psychopath.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6849.msg292112#msg292112
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6891.msg295342#msg295342
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6968.msg300445#msg300445
JB attempted to pursue Sky legally who were responsible for broadcasting Kerry Dayne's assessment. JB's claim failed.
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If I remember correctly CAL said she was in a cab and got chatting to the driver. JB's name cropped up and the driver referred to JB as a psychopath. CAL then relayed this to JB and if I remember correctly she asked JB how he felt about it. He said he hated being referred to as a psychopath. Hardly surprising I guess if you don't believe you are one!
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Medical research has shown that some individuals who were diagnosed as being psychopathic in their early years appear to lose the trait by middle age. If I recall correctly this only occurs in some and not all cases. Bamber could very well have exhibited signs of being a psychopath in his youth but has since lost them.
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Medical research has shown that some individuals who were diagnosed as being psychopathic in their early years appear to lose the trait by middle age. If I recall correctly this only occurs in some and not all cases. Bamber could very well have exhibited signs of being a psychopath in his youth but has since lost them.
Would he ordinarily have been subjected to any tests for mental illness/personality disorders pre-trial, during trial or shortly after the verdict?
Is it possible he could have done what the prosecution claim without suffering any mental illness and/or personality disorder?
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Is this ok Stephanie?
Thanks Holly 8((()*/
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You may -or not- recall that I've previously wondered what were the chances of adopting two genetically unrelated children who both become afflicted with forms of mental illness/personality disorders, albeit, I'm aware that a PD isn't a mental illness. It comes as no surprise to me. It may not have been so much about the Bambers attempting to slot them into holes which didn't fit their personalities, so much as them feeling they HAD to force themselves into those holes, possibly resulting in neither of them knowing who they were and where they fitted.
If there is no evidence of Jeremy having any kind of mental abnormality/brain injury, it seems strange that he hasn't produced the evidence as a way of silencing those who say the crime was committed because of such. Surely it would be in his favour?
But there's no evidence SC or JB were diagnosed with any PD. June and SC were diagnosed with mental illness as per Dr Ferguson's WS's.
I've no idea about the Bamber family dynamics.
JB has made available reports from Prof Egan but those who've convinced themselves otherwise will no doubt persist with their beliefs which they're entitled to:
https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
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Thanks Holly 8((()*/
You're welcome.
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Medical research has shown that some individuals who were diagnosed as being psychopathic in their early years appear to lose the trait by middle age. If I recall correctly this only occurs in some and not all cases. Bamber could very well have exhibited signs of being a psychopath in his youth but has since lost them.
My understanding is they don't lose the trait per se - they become less dangerous. They are still manipulative and calculating and still as charming as ever. With age I would imagine they are more easily fatigued and prone to making "ill conceived" decisions as Essex police highlighted.
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Maybe for the sake of argument we should refer to it as anti social personality disorder (ASPD)?
"Psychopathy, or sociopathy, is not an official diagnosis. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) refers to the condition as [ censored word]ocial personality disorder. People with APD, the DSM says, have "abnormal personality functioning" and "pathological personality traits," such as egocentrism, manipulativeness, and a lack of empathy.
Brain scans, of course, are only one potential indicator that someone has psychopathic tendencies. Genetics and family history also likely play a role in the development of the disorder.
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But there's no evidence SC or JB were diagnosed with any PD. June and SC were diagnosed with mental illness as per Dr Ferguson's WS's.
I've no idea about the Bamber family dynamics.
JB has made available reports from Prof Egan but those who've convinced themselves otherwise will no doubt persist with their beliefs which they're entitled to:
https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
but it was the 1980's. How many people do you know from that era were tested for PD's?
Experts make mistakes and can be conned as easily as many of us. I refer you to Hall's successful guittard application in 2012 - mere months before it became quite apparent he had "issues. Yet not dissimilar to Bamber he'd managed to fool many, there was nothing wrong with him. He was an appellant in a D-Cat prison and months away from home visits.
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Is there any evidence JB has refused anyone access to his medi records?
I didn't say SC's at the heart of the case. I said SC's mental health issues are at the heart of the case. This isn't my opinion it's a fact. Either JB is guilty as the prosecution claim with the probable motive being his inheritance and hatred of his adoptive family. Or SC murdered her family and took her own life as the defence claim due to her mental illness.
The silencer and blood need completely undermining for an acquittal.
More to the point, has anyone ever asked to see them?
Though this still doesn't answer my question? Why did he decide to campaign and claim he's not a psychopath?
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But there's no evidence SC or JB were diagnosed with any PD. June and SC were diagnosed with mental illness as per Dr Ferguson's WS's.
I've no idea about the Bamber family dynamics.
JB has made available reports from Prof Egan but those who've convinced themselves otherwise will no doubt persist with their beliefs which they're entitled to:
https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
You may find this helpful Holly - "Don't believe everything you read"
https://insidetime.org/dont-believe-everything-read/
and consider John Worboys http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2018/694.html
Prisoners often exploit the parole board - especially those prisoners who are explotative by nature.
Re: John Worboys "You stated that "I'm deeply sorry about what I have done. I feel I've become a better person since I changed my stance and admitted my guilt". You explained the context of your offending, the drivers and the links to your own life experiences and how that has all impacted to form your personality, attitudes and beliefs. Your account and explanation evidenced insight and was consistent with your disclosures and reflections in treatment and assessment settings … You said that "from 2011 I felt so guilty didn't know who to speak to – I found religion – decided if I'm going to follow the lord I've got to be honest and admit what I have done". You say that SOTP has taught you to identify risk factors and put in place strategies to self-manage those risks …
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Would he ordinarily have been subjected to any tests for mental illness/personality disorders pre-trial, during trial or shortly after the verdict?
Is it possible he could have done what the prosecution claim without suffering any mental illness and/or personality disorder?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8523.msg429042#msg429042
What are your thoughts? Do you think "normal" people commit mass murder & shoot 2 sleeping boys (one found to be sucking his thumb)?
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8523.msg429042#msg429042
What are your thoughts? Do you think "normal" people commit mass murder & shoot 2 sleeping boys (one found to be sucking his thumb)?
In one of my more geeky moments I looked up the list of those serving life in an attempt to find correlations for their offending but the info provided is too patchy. If I had to hazard a guess, aside from those with a diagnosed mental illness, I would say something goes awry in utero either the mother secreting too much or too little of a hormone or ingesting something toxic which then adversely affects the developing foetus. And/or abuse and neglect from birth - 2 years of age resulting in an insecure attachment. I think this will account for most but then you have crimes carried out under the influence of mind altering substances and temporary states of mind: anger, rage, passion etc. Then there are warped ideologies eg IS and Third Reich. Oh and obviously brain disease and injury. I don't believe in evil per se there must surely be explanations for deviating from the norm? Shipman is an interesting one not sure where he fits.
Re JB I quote Dr Vanezis:
..."I expressed the views that Jeremy would have to be a nutter to have done what occurred, in that he must have had such a warped state of mind to engineer it in the manner in which it was presented. This was almost too incredible to believe".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=740
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8523.msg429042#msg429042
What are your thoughts? Do you think "normal" people commit mass murder & shoot 2 sleeping boys (one found to be sucking his thumb)?
First, you'd have to define for us what "normal" is.
Then you'd have to explain how this "normal" is the opposite of, or different from, "psychopathy", a label not approved or accepted by mainstream clinical psychiatry.
Nobody doubts that what was done on that night was demonic and appalling. I've said before that the person who did it should have been hung. There is no doubt in my mind about that.
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Has it ever been claimed that Bamber's mental reasoning was in some way influenced by narcotics when he carried out the shootings? I ask this because of his admission that he stopped his car and put on another jumper on what was a warm August morning.
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Has it ever been claimed that Bamber's mental reasoning was in some way influenced by narcotics when he carried out the shootings? I ask this because of his admission that he stopped his car and put on another jumper on what was a warm August morning.
Added to which is a claim-although unproven- that a fall in infancy caused a frontal lobe injury. It was -allegedly- the reason he couldn't enrol on a deep sea diving course.
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Added to which is a claim-although unproven- that a fall in infancy caused a frontal lobe injury. It was -allegedly- the reason he couldn't enrol on a deep sea diving course.
I'm guessing there may be reference to that in his medical records?
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This is well worth listening to IMO http://player.themoth.org/#/?actionType=ADD_AND_PLAY&storyId=1151
I think this guy is pretty cool too..
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This is well worth listening to IMO http://player.themoth.org/#/?actionType=ADD_AND_PLAY&storyId=1151
I think this guy is pretty cool too..
Here's his TED talk he refers to - for anyone interested - https://www.ted.com/talks/jim_fallon_exploring_the_mind_of_a_killer#t-56966
"Psychopathic killers are the basis for some must-watch TV, but what really makes them tick? Neuroscientist Jim Fallon talks about brain scans and genetic analysis that may uncover the rotten wiring in the nature (and nurture) of murderers. In a too-strange-for-fiction twist, he shares a fascinating family history that makes his work chillingly personal.
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This is well worth listening to IMO http://player.themoth.org/#/?actionType=ADD_AND_PLAY&storyId=1151
I think this guy is pretty cool too..
He is BUT, remember he's a psychopath :) - I recommend his book!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Psychopath-Inside-Neuroscientists-Personal-Journey/dp/1617230154/ref=sr_1_1?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1523047341&sr=8-1&keywords=james+fallon
I suggested the bain scan on the blue forum some years back - it didn't go down well *&^^&
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He is BUT, remember he's a psychopath :) - I recommend his book!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Psychopath-Inside-Neuroscientists-Personal-Journey/dp/1617230154/ref=sr_1_1?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1523047341&sr=8-1&keywords=james+fallon
I suggested the bain scan on the blue forum some years back - it didn't go down well *&^^&
Pro social psychopath 8(0(* 8((()*/
Review re the book:
"A real page-turner. It's short (using clever typography to make it appear longer than it really is) and most people will probably devour it in an afternoon or a couple of winter evenings. In a single line - one single line - Fallon (accidentally) describes what's wrong with "streamed" education and particularly the grammar system still going in parts of England.
He further states - using firm, scientific data - why sending young men (and women) of to war before their early 20s is a not just wrong, it's dangerous to the development of their brain and will leave them with effects than can never be reversed.
I guess time will tell regarding Bamber's brain scan
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https://youtu.be/YZ5yKJlhbiA
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In his 6th March 2018 prison reform speech , the Justice Secretary The Rt Hon David Gauke MP stated the following:
Purpose of prison
Depriving someone of their liberty for a period of time is one of the most significant powers available to the State and must be imposed with respect for the rule of law and with purpose.
Prison is the sharp end of our justice system. By imposing this serious sanction, we must be clear about what prison is for.
I believe its purpose is threefold:
First, protection of the public – prison protects the public from the most dangerous and violent individuals
Second, punishment – prison deprives offenders of their liberty and certain freedoms enjoyed by the rest of society and acts as a deterrent. It is not the only sanction available, but it is an important one.
And third, rehabilitation – prison provides offenders with the opportunity to reflect on, and take responsibility for, their crimes and prepare them for a law-abiding life when they are released
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prisons-reform-speech
Although long, I do think this is worth a read
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He is BUT, remember he's a psychopath :) - I recommend his book!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Psychopath-Inside-Neuroscientists-Personal-Journey/dp/1617230154/ref=sr_1_1?s=diy&ie=UTF8&qid=1523047341&sr=8-1&keywords=james+fallon
I suggested the bain scan on the blue forum some years back - it didn't go down well *&^^&
Even if JB submitted to a brain scan which showed patterns consistent with psychopathy this wouldn't necessarily mean JB was responsible as evidenced by James Fallon's brain scan?
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Even if JB submitted to a brain scan which showed patterns consistent with psychopathy this wouldn't necessarily mean JB was responsible as evidenced by James Fallon's brain scan?
How do you work that out?
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How do you work that out?
The guy you mentioned here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.msg455692#msg455692
his brain scan is consistent with others who exhibit psychopathic traits and yet it appears Dr Fallon is a non-violent psychopath?
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/01/life-as-a-nonviolent-psychopath/282271/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_H._Fallon
"Fallon prominently featured in the BBC production Are You Good or Evil?,[1] where he revealed that he'd discovered that he, himself, has the neurological and genetic correlates of psychopathy. Fallon stated that he is not concerned and believes that his positive experiences in childhood negated any potential genetic vulnerabilities to violence and emotional issues".
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The guy you mentioned here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.msg455692#msg455692
his brain scan is consistent with others who exhibit psychopathic traits and yet it appears Dr Fallon is a non-violent psychopath?
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/01/life-as-a-nonviolent-psychopath/282271/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_H._Fallon
"Fallon prominently featured in the BBC production Are You Good or Evil?,[1] where he revealed that he'd discovered that he, himself, has the neurological and genetic correlates of psychopathy. Fallon stated that he is not concerned and believes that his positive experiences in childhood negated any potential genetic vulnerabilities to violence and emotional issues".
See thread title
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See thread title
Has he campaigned as such? Thought it was just some commentary from an assessment posted up on the so-called 'official website'?
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Has he campaigned as such? Thought it was just some commentary from an assessment posted up on the so-called 'official website'?
That's your interpretation of my first post Holly. I didn't ask you to name this thread title as you have done. You named it based on your perception of my argument/post.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.msg455521#msg455521
"Bamber claims he is innocent and is not a psychopath - he's made these claims for decades. I say - prove it - let's see your brain scans. Maybe the Crown will seek to address this in the near future
Bamber has denied claims he is a psychopath for around 3 decades. He hasn't just told those who campaign on his behalf he's not a psychopath he's also told various other sources he's not a psychopath.
Why has he been so desperate to show he is not psychopathic?
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That's your interpretation of my first post Holly. I didn't ask you to name this thread title as you have done. You named it based on your perception of my argument/post.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.msg455521#msg455521
"Bamber claims he is innocent and is not a psychopath - he's made these claims for decades. I say - prove it - let's see your brain scans. Maybe the Crown will seek to address this in the near future
Bamber has denied claims he is a psychopath for around 3 decades. He hasn't just told those who campaign on his behalf he's not a psychopath he's also told various other sources he's not a psychopath.
Why has he been so desperate to show he is not psychopathic?
Stephanie I think you're being somewhat unfair. Your post #1:
Why has Bamber campaigned to say he isn't a psychopath?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.msg455521#msg455521
I asked you in post #9 "Is this OK Stephanie"? In post #15 you replied "Thanks Holly".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.msg455538#msg455538
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.msg455574#msg455574
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Stephanie I think you're being somewhat unfair. Your post #1:
Why has Bamber campaigned to say he isn't a psychopath?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.msg455521#msg455521
I asked you in post #9 "Is this OK Stephanie"? In post #15 you replied "Thanks Holly".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.msg455538#msg455538
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.msg455574#msg455574
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.msg456050#msg456050
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Stephanie I think you're being somewhat unfair. Your post #1:
Why has Bamber campaigned to say he isn't a psychopath?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.msg455521#msg455521
I asked you in post #9 "Is this OK Stephanie"? In post #15 you replied "Thanks Holly".
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.msg455538#msg455538
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9346.msg455574#msg455574
I thanked you for splitting the thread. You usually remove my posts if they aren't relevant to debate, as you see it.
You appear slighted? That's not my intention.
You seemed to have missed the point, that's all.
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I thanked you for splitting the thread. You usually remove my posts if they aren't relevant to debate, as you see it.
You appear slighted? That's not my intention.
You seemed to have missed the point, that's all.
Fair enough. Shall we accept there was some misunderstanding between us and move on?
So it seems from Dr Fallon and Prof Baron-Cohen that psychopathy ie erosion or lack of empathy (inability to feel the pain of another) is caused by certain genes but those that go on to commit anti-social acts have usually suffered abuse/neglect too so in effect it is gene environment interaction?
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Fair enough. Shall we accept there was some misunderstanding between us and move on?
So it seems from Dr Fallon and Prof Baron-Cohen that psychopathy ie erosion or lack of empathy (inability to feel the pain of another) is caused by certain genes but those that go on to commit anti-social acts have usually suffered abuse/neglect too so in effect it is gene environment interaction?
That's about the size of it.
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As the debate is about JB v SC I guess we need to consider what a brain scan from SC might reveal. Although as per the experts quoted in this thread it seems psychopathy is caused by carrying certain genes and being exposed to an environment of abuse and neglect.
I think the problem is abuse and neglect conjures up low-socio economic families or single parents leading chaotic lives not middle class families like the Bambers where one or both parents suffer a mental illness and possibly emotional problems eg linked to their infertility. Until I see some evidence to the contrary I will continue to believe SC was adversely affected by June's mental illness circa 1959.
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https://www.medicaldaily.com/chilling-brain-scans-show-impact-mothers-love-childs-brain-size-243328
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https://www.medicaldaily.com/chilling-brain-scans-show-impact-mothers-love-childs-brain-size-243328
This thread is about why Bamber has campaigned to say he isn't a psychopath Holly
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This thread is about why Bamber has campaigned to say he isn't a psychopath Holly
Yes and many of the posts make ref to brain scans including your post #1. Given the whole hub of the debate is JB or SC are you saying my posts above are unrelated to the thread and off-topic?
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This thread is about why Bamber has campaigned to say he isn't a psychopath Holly
John Worboys conned the prison and associated agencies but was eventually found out.
I firmly believe Jeremy Bamber has also conned the prison and associated agencies, including in relation to all his assessments; but will in time be also be caught out.
Whilst I appreciate the two cases are different the basis of the two cases are the same.
"On Wednesday 28 March 2018, the High Court handed down its landmark judgment in the case of John Worboys, upholding the challenge by two of his victims to the Parole Board’s decision to release him. The judgment runs to over fifty pages and does not make for easy reading, so here’s a breakdown of this unusual and complex case.
What is this case about in a nutshell?
On 13 March 2009, Worboys (now known as John Radford) was convicted of 19 serious sexual offences involving twelve victims, and was sentenced to an indeterminate sentence of imprisonment with a minimum term of 8 years. Upon expiry of that minimum term, Worboys became eligible for release, subject to satisfying the Parole Board that his incarceration was no longer necessary for the protection of the public. On 26 December 2017, the Parole Board directed his release. The decision, as with all decisions of the Parole Board, was taken in private and no reasons are allowed to be published under Rule 25 of the Parole Board Rules 2016. Judicial review proceedings were instituted to challenge both the decision to release Worboys, and the legality of Rule 25.
Who was involved in the challenge?
There were three sets of linked proceedings. The first was instituted by the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan. The second challenge was by two women, DSD and NBV, the latter of whom was a victim who gave evidence at Worboys’ trial, the former of whom was not involved in the criminal proceedings (a decision by the Crown Prosecution Service, not DSD), and obtained a civil settlement against him. The third challenge was by News Group Newspapers Ltd, and was directed solely to the legality of Rule 25.
What was the Court’s decision?
Sadiq Khan fell at the first hurdle – the Court ruled that he did not have “standing” to bring a Judicial Review against the Parole Board – that is, he did not have a sufficient interest in the decision. However DSD and NBV, and News Group Newspapers, who did have standing (being, for want of a better expression, directly affected by the issues raised), succeeded in their challenge on both limbs.
So the Parole Board was wrong to direct that Worboys should be released?
No. Not exactly. Judicial Review is (very broadly speaking) concerned with process, rather than outcome. The Court did not rule that the Parole Board was wrong to assess Worboys as fit for release. Rather, the Court held that the Parole Board decision was not rational, in that it had failed to undertake further inquiry into “the circumstances of Worboys’ offending and in particular the extent to which the limited way he described his offending may undermine his overall credibility and reliability”.
What further inquiry should have been undertaken?
The dossier before the Parole Board appeared disconcertingly light on key materials. There was not a copy of the prosecution opening speech, nor the judge’s sentencing remarks, from Worboys’ trial, which contained important summaries of the circumstances of the offences. Nor was there a copy of the judgment of the High Court in the proceedings brought against the Metropolitan Police by some of Worboys’ victims, which contained further detail as to how he carried out his crimes, including the discovery of a “rape kit” in Worboys’ car, containing, among other things, condoms and strips of Nytol. Nor was there any information concerning the wider offences alleged against Worboys by other women, including some with whom he had reached civil settlements (said to be “without admission of liability”).
This all matters because until 2015, Worboys had continued to deny his guilt and was pursuing routes of appeal, before, in May 2015, performing a remarkable volte face and admitting the offences of which he had been convicted. That this came only 9 months before he was eligible for release might by itself have raised eyebrows. But more importantly, what he said to the professionals when he did admit his offences did not sit easily with the evidence at trial. He appeared to redraw the limits of his criminality, for example asserting that he had only once used Nytol to drug his victims, and minimising the extent to which he had sexually assaulted them. He also maintained that the only offences he had committed were those of which he had been convicted, notwithstanding the view expressed by the police that he had committed over a hundred like offences.
The Parole Board relied heavily upon a number of reports from offender managers and psychologists. While his offender managers opposed release, several psychologists were in favour. However, in arriving at their views, these psychologists appeared to accept at face value what Worboys had told them and concluded that he had taken “full responsibility” for his actions.”
Read more here: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/your-questions-answered-on-the-unusual-and-complex-john-worboys-case/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
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John Worboys conned the prison and associated agencies but was eventually found out.
I firmly believe Jeremy Bamber has also conned the prison and associated agencies, including in relation to all his assessments; but will in time be also be caught out.
Whilst I appreciate the two cases are different the basis of the two cases are the same.
"On Wednesday 28 March 2018, the High Court handed down its landmark judgment in the case of John Worboys, upholding the challenge by two of his victims to the Parole Board’s decision to release him. The judgment runs to over fifty pages and does not make for easy reading, so here’s a breakdown of this unusual and complex case.
What is this case about in a nutshell?
On 13 March 2009, Worboys (now known as John Radford) was convicted of 19 serious sexual offences involving twelve victims, and was sentenced to an indeterminate sentence of imprisonment with a minimum term of 8 years. Upon expiry of that minimum term, Worboys became eligible for release, subject to satisfying the Parole Board that his incarceration was no longer necessary for the protection of the public. On 26 December 2017, the Parole Board directed his release. The decision, as with all decisions of the Parole Board, was taken in private and no reasons are allowed to be published under Rule 25 of the Parole Board Rules 2016. Judicial review proceedings were instituted to challenge both the decision to release Worboys, and the legality of Rule 25.
Who was involved in the challenge?
There were three sets of linked proceedings. The first was instituted by the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan. The second challenge was by two women, DSD and NBV, the latter of whom was a victim who gave evidence at Worboys’ trial, the former of whom was not involved in the criminal proceedings (a decision by the Crown Prosecution Service, not DSD), and obtained a civil settlement against him. The third challenge was by News Group Newspapers Ltd, and was directed solely to the legality of Rule 25.
What was the Court’s decision?
Sadiq Khan fell at the first hurdle – the Court ruled that he did not have “standing” to bring a Judicial Review against the Parole Board – that is, he did not have a sufficient interest in the decision. However DSD and NBV, and News Group Newspapers, who did have standing (being, for want of a better expression, directly affected by the issues raised), succeeded in their challenge on both limbs.
So the Parole Board was wrong to direct that Worboys should be released?
No. Not exactly. Judicial Review is (very broadly speaking) concerned with process, rather than outcome. The Court did not rule that the Parole Board was wrong to assess Worboys as fit for release. Rather, the Court held that the Parole Board decision was not rational, in that it had failed to undertake further inquiry into “the circumstances of Worboys’ offending and in particular the extent to which the limited way he described his offending may undermine his overall credibility and reliability”.
What further inquiry should have been undertaken?
The dossier before the Parole Board appeared disconcertingly light on key materials. There was not a copy of the prosecution opening speech, nor the judge’s sentencing remarks, from Worboys’ trial, which contained important summaries of the circumstances of the offences. Nor was there a copy of the judgment of the High Court in the proceedings brought against the Metropolitan Police by some of Worboys’ victims, which contained further detail as to how he carried out his crimes, including the discovery of a “rape kit” in Worboys’ car, containing, among other things, condoms and strips of Nytol. Nor was there any information concerning the wider offences alleged against Worboys by other women, including some with whom he had reached civil settlements (said to be “without admission of liability”).
This all matters because until 2015, Worboys had continued to deny his guilt and was pursuing routes of appeal, before, in May 2015, performing a remarkable volte face and admitting the offences of which he had been convicted. That this came only 9 months before he was eligible for release might by itself have raised eyebrows. But more importantly, what he said to the professionals when he did admit his offences did not sit easily with the evidence at trial. He appeared to redraw the limits of his criminality, for example asserting that he had only once used Nytol to drug his victims, and minimising the extent to which he had sexually assaulted them. He also maintained that the only offences he had committed were those of which he had been convicted, notwithstanding the view expressed by the police that he had committed over a hundred like offences.
The Parole Board relied heavily upon a number of reports from offender managers and psychologists. While his offender managers opposed release, several psychologists were in favour. However, in arriving at their views, these psychologists appeared to accept at face value what Worboys had told them and concluded that he had taken “full responsibility” for his actions.”
Read more here: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/your-questions-answered-on-the-unusual-and-complex-john-worboys-case/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
The Judges summing up in the Jeremy Bamber case:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=273.0
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The Judges summing up in the Jeremy Bamber case:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=273.0
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43930342
"Victims of crime could find it simpler to challenge parole decisions, as part of a major overhaul of the Parole Board process.
Justice Secretary David Gauke is proposing reforms after the decision, which was overturned, to grant parole to serial sex-offender John Worboys.
Under the changes victims would get more information about cases and it would be easier to challenge decisions.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/guaranteed-support-for-victims-of-crime
"Victims of crime will now be able to hold the criminal justice system to account for the support it provides and be backed by a clear set of entitlements thanks to a statutory new Victims Code, Victims’ Minister Helen Grant announced today.
A simple new Code – written for victims rather than the ‘System’ for the first time - has today been put out to consultation to ensure it gives victims what they need. It tells people what they can expect from the moment they report a crime to the end of a trial, and who to demand help from if it is not provided.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43930342
"Victims of crime could find it simpler to challenge parole decisions, as part of a major overhaul of the Parole Board process.
Justice Secretary David Gauke is proposing reforms after the decision, which was overturned, to grant parole to serial sex-offender John Worboys.
Under the changes victims would get more information about cases and it would be easier to challenge decisions.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/guaranteed-support-for-victims-of-crime
"Victims of crime will now be able to hold the criminal justice system to account for the support it provides and be backed by a clear set of entitlements thanks to a statutory new Victims Code, Victims’ Minister Helen Grant announced today.
A simple new Code – written for victims rather than the ‘System’ for the first time - has today been put out to consultation to ensure it gives victims what they need. It tells people what they can expect from the moment they report a crime to the end of a trial, and who to demand help from if it is not provided.
I am of the opinion that Jeremy Bambers psychological assessments, the ones he uses to dupe his victims, will in the near future be scrutinised and brought up to date.
Thus his public campaign to suggest he isn't a psychopath will cease.
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The Parole Board relied heavily upon a number of reports from offender managers and psychologists. While his offender managers opposed release, several psychologists were in favour. However, in arriving at their views, these psychologists appeared to accept at face value what Worboys had told them and concluded that he had taken “full responsibility” for his actions.”
Read more here: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/your-questions-answered-on-the-unusual-and-complex-john-worboys-case/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
And THIS is how Jeremy Bamber has duped so many!
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And THIS is how Jeremy Bamber has duped so many!
Although Bamber has never taken ANY responsibility!
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Although Bamber has never taken ANY responsibility!
And he won't, even when his psychopathy is exposed - and it WILL be!
Nothing is ever his fault!
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Does anyone know if Jeremy Bamber has had an adjudications these past 33 years or so. I presuming he had one in relation to the violent attack on another prisoner https://www.thefreelibrary.com/KILLER+BAMBER'S+BROKEN+BOTTLE+JAIL+ATTACK.-a061330122
The home office said there would be an enquire regarding this; did it happen? Can we find out?
What prison courses, if any, has Bamber completed in relation to his violent attack on another inmate and
Did the prison forensic psychologists who assessed Bamber take this violent offence into consideration when completing their assessments of him?
What did Prof Egan have to say about Bamber in relation to this violent episode?
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It appears obvious to me that many of Bambers supporters seem unaware that before his trial, a pre trial report would have been carried out on him. This is a pre requisite for violent offenders. Where is it? What does it say?
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Although Bamber has never taken ANY responsibility!
The parole board have recently agreed to release murderer Ian Simms despite his refusal to disclose where his victim Helen McCourts remains are https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-51034590
1999
“But Mrs McCourt, whose daughter's body has not been found, said: "Prisoners should not have the privilege of contact with journalists [to] publicise either their cases, for monetary gain or to boost their egos and self esteem."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/jul/09/claredyer
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The parole board have recently agreed to release murderer Ian Simms despite his refusal to disclose where his victim Helen McCourts remains are https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-51034590
1999
“But Mrs McCourt, whose daughter's body has not been found, said: "Prisoners should not have the privilege of contact with journalists [to] publicise either their cases, for monetary gain or to boost their egos and self esteem."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/jul/09/claredyer
It's time the law was changed so that convicted killers and their hangers-on cannot exploit the press and media as is being attempted in Bamber's case.
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It's time the law was changed so that convicted killers and their hangers-on cannot exploit the press and media as is being attempted in Bamber's case.
I'm inclined to agree with you on this. JB isn't going anywhere without substantial new forensic evidence. Imo he would be better off keeping his head down and working on an appeal with his lawyer.
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It's time the law was changed so that convicted killers and their hangers-on cannot exploit the press and media as is being attempted in Bamber's case.
Would you extend this to book authors and TV producers who have free rein as evidenced by the current series on Itv?
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It's time the law was changed so that convicted killers and their hangers-on cannot exploit the press and media as is being attempted in Bamber's case.
You could always make a complaint to the ministry of justice
Though in Bamber’s case I suspect they have reams of intelligence on him and are well aware of his exploitative nature
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It’s possible that Jeremy Bamber either doesn’t realise he’s a psychopath or refuses to accept it.
He showed huge signs of psychopathy when sat with the police outside the farmhouse: his general manner was calm, collected, and he even spoke several times about buying a Porsche. No normal person who’s terrified that their whole family are in mortal danger would even think about sports cars...
He was so calm, in fact, that when one officer later arrived on the scene he mistook JB for a detective: such was his calm manner.
It’s known that June accidentally dropped him on his head when a baby, and I think (though it isn’t corroborated) he suffered a fractured skull. It’s a fact that head injuries can cause psychopathy, and when Jeremy failed his medical examination to train to become a registered scuba diver in NZ, in the hope of teaching, he blamed Sheila for dropping him on his head.
In some ways you have to pity him if that accident caused his psychopathy, the whole thing is tragic all round. But even psychopaths, despite their lack of empathy and their warped emotions know right from wrong. He isn’t unintelligent or suffering from mania, so however devoid of emotions he may be, he would have known it was wrong to kill all his family — but he didn’t care.
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It’s possible that Jeremy Bamber either doesn’t realise he’s a psychopath or refuses to accept it.
He showed huge signs of psychopathy when sat with the police outside the farmhouse: his general manner was calm, collected, and he even spoke several times about buying a Porsche. No normal person who’s terrified that their whole family are in mortal danger would even think about sports cars...
He was so calm, in fact, that when one officer later arrived on the scene he mistook JB for a detective: such was his calm manner.
It’s known that June accidentally dropped him on his head when a baby, and I think (though it isn’t corroborated) he suffered a fractured skull. It’s a fact that head injuries can cause psychopathy, and when Jeremy failed his medical examination to train to become a registered scuba diver in NZ, in the hope of teaching, he blamed Sheila for dropping him on his head.
In some ways you have to pity him if that accident caused his psychopathy, the whole thing is tragic all round. But even psychopaths, despite their lack of empathy and their warped emotions know right from wrong. He isn’t unintelligent or suffering from mania, so however devoid of emotions he may be, he would have known it was wrong to kill all his family — but he didn’t care.
Did you know that psychopaths can lose the trait in later life?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201907/is-there-any-hope-the-aging-psychopath
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Did you know that psychopaths can lose the trait in later life?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201907/is-there-any-hope-the-aging-psychopath
From what I’ve read on psychopathy the brain is wired up wrongly or has been damaged, and it’s untreatable
Psychopaths may mellow with age, just like any normal person often does, but you can’t treat or cure psychopathy, just as you can’t unscramble an egg
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From what I’ve read on psychopathy the brain is wired up wrongly or has been damaged, and it’s untreatable
Psychopaths may mellow with age, just like any normal person often does, but you can’t treat or cure psychopathy, just as you can’t unscramble an egg
That was my understanding too. I suppose it's the nature versus nurture debate, genetics versus environment. I understood that a psychopath had a genetic condition but that sociopaths were a product of their environment and that sociopaths often matured as they got older.
Then again there are probably more psychopaths than we realise among the general population. Some of the most successful people in business and/or politics are probably psychopaths but they never go on to kill people. There's probably an environmental factor with psychopaths that do, some stressor that festers and leads them down the path of murder.
Personally, I believe Bamber has all the traits of a psychopath. The thing is psychopaths are aware of the consequences of their actions, they just don't care. Perhaps that is what evil is, the complete absence of empathy.
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That was my understanding too. I suppose it's the nature versus nurture debate, genetics versus environment. I understood that a psychopath had a genetic condition but that sociopaths were a product of their environment and that sociopaths often matured as they got older.
Then again there are probably more psychopaths than we realise among the general population. Some of the most successful people in business and/or politics are probably psychopaths but they never go on to kill people. There's probably an environmental factor with psychopaths that do, some stressor that festers and leads them down the path of murder.
Personally, I believe Bamber has all the traits of a psychopath. The thing is psychopaths are aware of the consequences of their actions, they just don't care. Perhaps that is what evil is, the complete absence of empathy.
This guy should know!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzqn6Z_Iss0&vl=en
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSatsGU5UKQ
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It’s possible that Jeremy Bamber either doesn’t realise he’s a psychopath or refuses to accept it.
He showed huge signs of psychopathy when sat with the police outside the farmhouse: his general manner was calm, collected, and he even spoke several times about buying a Porsche. No normal person who’s terrified that their whole family are in mortal danger would even think about sports cars...
He was so calm, in fact, that when one officer later arrived on the scene he mistook JB for a detective: such was his calm manner.
It’s known that June accidentally dropped him on his head when a baby, and I think (though it isn’t corroborated) he suffered a fractured skull. It’s a fact that head injuries can cause psychopathy, and when Jeremy failed his medical examination to train to become a registered scuba diver in NZ, in the hope of teaching, he blamed Sheila for dropping him on his head.
In some ways you have to pity him if that accident caused his psychopathy, the whole thing is tragic all round. But even psychopaths, despite their lack of empathy and their warped emotions know right from wrong. He isn’t unintelligent or suffering from mania, so however devoid of emotions he may be, he would have known it was wrong to kill all his family — but he didn’t care.
Do you know whether or not he has actually been diagnosed with psychopathy?
I don't know whether or not he is guilty, but what I do suspect, is that he genuinely believes that he isn't!
Interesting what you say about him having suffered a head injury: I believe the same happened to Fred West (in his case, a motorcycle accident). I did read somewhere that head injuries can sometimes lead to people committing awful crimes later.
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Do you know whether or not he has actually been diagnosed with psychopathy?
I don't know whether or not he is guilty, but what I do suspect, is that he genuinely believes that he isn't!
Interesting what you say about him having suffered a head injury: I believe the same happened to Fred West (in his case, a motorcycle accident). I did read somewhere that head injuries can sometimes lead to people committing awful crimes later.
There have been psychiatrists who have said so. It maybe that they were never asked the question so their names don't appear in the information available. There may be others who say otherwise. I doubt whether it actually matters now, anyway. He won't be the only one within the community he inhabits. I don't suppose he's any more dangerous, within it's confines, than the other residents.
There is a theory that frontal lobe damage may result in psychopathy. It may. But I'm inclined to think that with most, it's innate.
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There have been psychiatrists who have said so. It maybe that they were never asked the question so their names don't appear in the information available. There may be others who say otherwise. I doubt whether it actually matters now, anyway. He won't be the only one within the community he inhabits. I don't suppose he's any more dangerous, within it's confines, than the other residents.
There is a theory that frontal lobe damage may result in psychopathy. It may. But I'm inclined to think that with most, it's innate.
If you watch the video's above, Dr Fallon has studied the PET scans of murderers, they 'all' have an impaired frontal lobe, either naturally or as a result of an accident. Dr Fallon is famous because he found that he shares similar brain impairments and admits to never having experienced feelings of empathy. He can be classed as a psychopath - and admits to sharing many of the traits in the check list. Many psychopaths exist in society without being violent. The difference between violent and non-violent psychopaths is generally some kind trauma during childhood.
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If you watch the video's above, Dr Fallon has studied the PET scans of murderers, they 'all' have an impaired frontal lobe, either naturally or as a result of an accident. Dr Fallon is famous because he found that he shares similar brain impairments and admits to never having experienced feelings of empathy. He can be classed as a psychopath - and admits to sharing many of the traits in the check list. Many psychopaths exist in society without being violent. The difference between violent and non-violent psychopaths is generally some kind trauma during childhood.
It may be the reason why Jeremy has refused the release of his medical records.
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Do you know whether or not he has actually been diagnosed with psychopathy?
I don't know whether or not he is guilty, but what I do suspect, is that he genuinely believes that he isn't!
Interesting what you say about him having suffered a head injury: I believe the same happened to Fred West (in his case, a motorcycle accident). I did read somewhere that head injuries can sometimes lead to people committing awful crimes later.
He claims he hasn't been but I for one wouldn't believe a thing he writes. Anyone incarcerated for 35 years as Jeremy Bamber has been will surely now be institutionalised and exhibit the mental illness associated with it.
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Do you know whether or not he has actually been diagnosed with psychopathy?
I don't know whether or not he is guilty, but what I do suspect, is that he genuinely believes that he isn't!
Interesting what you say about him having suffered a head injury: I believe the same happened to Fred West (in his case, a motorcycle accident). I did read somewhere that head injuries can sometimes lead to people committing awful crimes later.
That being the case, he wouldn't need to be evasive or deliberately ignore questions.
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That being the case, he wouldn't need to be evasive or deliberately ignore questions.
Indeed.
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That was my understanding too. I suppose it's the nature versus nurture debate, genetics versus environment. I understood that a psychopath had a genetic condition but that sociopaths were a product of their environment and that sociopaths often matured as they got older.
Then again there are probably more psychopaths than we realise among the general population. Some of the most successful people in business and/or politics are probably psychopaths but they never go on to kill people. There's probably an environmental factor with psychopaths that do, some stressor that festers and leads them down the path of murder.
Personally, I believe Bamber has all the traits of a psychopath. The thing is psychopaths are aware of the consequences of their actions, they just don't care. Perhaps that is what evil is, the complete absence of empathy.
Absolutely agree with every word you say
I’ve researched psychopathy, though I’m not a specialist by any means, and all the research shows that psychopaths are born — or suffered a head injury which changed their personality
It’s true they’re devoid of normal emotions
Many are highly intelligent and successful: their success is helped by the fact they’re ruthless and won’t let anyone or anything stand in their way
Many MP’s are psychopaths — including many hugely successful businessmen
Even medicine attracts psychopaths, and it’s known that some surgeons have psychopathic traits. They actually put their PD to good, albeit for their own ego
Bomb disposal squads are also usually psychopathic: because they have no fear and remain perfectly calm in danger
Many people assume all psychopaths are like the Yorkshire Ripper, but they’re in the minority. Clever, ruthless psychopaths make good lives for themselves and can be extremely charming
I suspect nurture plays an important part in how a psychopath turns out, but studies show that siblings of psychopaths are often normal and have no PD at all, which further proves psychopaths are born
Jeremy Bamber was diagnosed as being a psychopath when he was on remand, but he’s managed to keep that hidden. It’s true psychopaths mature just like anyone else, but they simply become a “mature psychopath” and with age their physical and mental ability to do wicked deeds becomes more difficult for them — but their abnormal brains don’t become healed with time
Bamber will never admit to killing his family because there’s no benefit in it for him. He’d admit to it if it meant he’d get parole, but would twist the version of events to try and gain pity from his gullible supporters. He’d come up with some cock & bull story to make himself look the victim, and his supporters would believe him
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Given that we know the majority of psychopaths are law abiding citizens -even high achievers and certainly risk-takers- wouldn't it be interesting to know if/where/how many of his supporters fall on the psychopathy spectrum?
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Absolutely agree with every word you say
I’ve researched psychopathy, though I’m not a specialist by any means, and all the research shows that psychopaths are born — or suffered a head injury which changed their personality
It’s true they’re devoid of normal emotions
Many are highly intelligent and successful: their success is helped by the fact they’re ruthless and won’t let anyone or anything stand in their way
Many MP’s are psychopaths — including many hugely successful businessmen
Even medicine attracts psychopaths, and it’s known that some surgeons have psychopathic traits. They actually put their PD to good, albeit for their own ego
Bomb disposal squads are also usually psychopathic: because they have no fear and remain perfectly calm in danger
Many people assume all psychopaths are like the Yorkshire Ripper, but they’re in the minority. Clever, ruthless psychopaths make good lives for themselves and can be extremely charming
I suspect nurture plays an important part in how a psychopath turns out, but studies show that siblings of psychopaths are often normal and have no PD at all, which further proves psychopaths are born
Jeremy Bamber was diagnosed as being a psychopath when he was on remand, but he’s managed to keep that hidden. It’s true psychopaths mature just like anyone else, but they simply become a “mature psychopath” and with age their physical and mental ability to do wicked deeds becomes more difficult for them — but their abnormal brains don’t become healed with time
Bamber will never admit to killing his family because there’s no benefit in it for him. He’d admit to it if it meant he’d get parole, but would twist the version of events to try and gain pity from his gullible supporters. He’d come up with some cock & bull story to make himself look the victim, and his supporters would believe him
I know it is a grey area but I was trying to differentiate between a born psychopath (nature) and a sociopath (nurture) when I said many sociopaths eventually can outgrow their maladaptive behaviour learned as a child that can carry on through adolescence into early adulthood. I would agree that is not the same for a psychopath and to be honest we will all have had a close relationship with a psychopath at some point in our lives. In my case it was the landlady of private accommodation we lived in for 10 years. If I described the personality traits of this lady who was around 60 years old, people would think I was describing Bamber which is I why I recognised his traits very early on when I joined the forum.
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Given that we know the majority of psychopaths are law abiding citizens -even high achievers and certainly risk-takers- wouldn't it be interesting to know if/where/how many of his supporters fall on the psychopathy spectrum?
He's playing to the gallery.
He equates psychopath with killer and therefore if he is not a psychopath he cannot be a killer.
Many people will fall for that misconception and psychopaths just love to play the victim.
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Do you know whether or not he has actually been diagnosed with psychopathy?
I don't know whether or not he is guilty, but what I do suspect, is that he genuinely believes that he isn't!
Interesting what you say about him having suffered a head injury: I believe the same happened to Fred West (in his case, a motorcycle accident). I did read somewhere that head injuries can sometimes lead to people committing awful crimes later.
He was diagnosed a psychopath by the prison psychiatrist when he was on remand and before he was found guilty. The psychiatrist reported that besides Jeremy Bamber being a psychopath, he was a pathological liar too. He wrote that he firmly believed JB was guilty of the murders, and that was before the trial. Obviously, that information couldn’t be released in court as it would have compromised the hearing, but Jeremy Bamber knows of its existence and keeps that information hushed up. I dare say that’s why he’s taken TWENTY SEVEN polygraph tests ; he’s desperately trying to prove he isn’t a liar, but any sane person would ask why anybody would feel the need to take 27 tests...if they’re fail proof (which they’re not) surely just one would suffice? That in itself demonstrates his warped way of thinking: one doesn’t take their driving test 27 times if they passed it on the first attempt. It’s a fact that psychopaths do indeed pass polygraphs with ease, simply because they lack normal emotions.
I suspect he’s convinced himself he didn’t murder his family, despite knowing he did. A tell-take sign to his psyche is hiw he lied to Julie and told her he’d paid a hitman to kill them. He did that because he didn’t want her to think he was capable of shooting those bullets into his family’s heads. He distanced himself from it to make him look less evil. He may have also deliberately thrown in a red herring in case Julie did ever squeal...
So it’s possible he’s detached himself from the Jeremy Bamber of that night when he murdered them, and so when he says he didn’t kill them, he’s kind of telling the truth in as much as that man then wasn’t the same Jeremy Bamber as now.
His mother did accidentally drop him on his head when he was a baby, and he blamed her for him failing his medical to become a scuba diving instructor.
You’re absolutely right: head injuries can cause psychopathy depending on which part of the brain is damaged. Like you say, Fred West also received a head injury, and I believe it was after that his character changed.
I also believe that because Jeremy was good-looking, well turned out, spoke well etc...he was able (and still is) to fool people into believing he’s innocent.
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It may be the reason why Jeremy has refused the release of his medical records.
Considering how determined he has been for 34 years to be released one should ask why he refuses to release his medical history. You’d do anything and everything to get set free, so it’s obvious he’s hiding something — and hat something is the reports of his head injury including the prison psychiatrist’s report that he’s a psychopath.
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Given that we know the majority of psychopaths are law abiding citizens -even high achievers and certainly risk-takers- wouldn't it be interesting to know if/where/how many of his supporters fall on the psychopathy spectrum?
I believe the majority of his supporters are of low to low/average intelligence, and incredibly gullible and naive.
Some of them, mainly women, seem to have a crush on him even f they refuse to admit it. Those women are sorely lacking on so many levels, and they convince themselves he’s innocent so they can live in la-la land with their pretend lover who they’ve never even met in the flesh. They’re very sad women.
There may be the odd psychopath floating around his orbit, but I suspect most are just simpletons who have no real life
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I know it is a grey area but I was trying to differentiate between a born psychopath (nature) and a sociopath (nurture) when I said many sociopaths eventually can outgrow their maladaptive behaviour learned as a child that can carry on through adolescence into early adulthood. I would agree that is not the same for a psychopath and to be honest we will all have had a close relationship with a psychopath at some point in our lives. In my case it was the landlady of private accommodation we lived in for 10 years. If I described the personality traits of this lady who was around 60 years old, people would think I was describing Bamber which is I why I recognised his traits very early on when I joined the forum.
It’s remarkable how many people assume only men are psychopaths, not realising women can be too
Just look at Myra Hindley...
OK, she was in the extreme, and as you say, not all psychopaths murder. The majority don’t. They’re often highly intelligent, very cunning, manipulative, incessant liars, and utterly ruthless — and that includes the successful ones who come across as charming and friendly. It’s easy to see how they can manipulate the unaware.
The one thing I’ve always found with psychopaths, is that they all have similar eyes. The eyes are soulless, similar to a shark, and appear “dead”, whilst at the same time their stare seems to pierce right through you — as if they’re reading your thoughts.
It’s telling how the secretary at WHF said she was afraid of Jeremy. She said she felt scared of him because after the murders, when he came to speak to her in the office she felt he knew that she knew he’d done it by his eyes, and how they seemed to penetrate her and read her mind...
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He was diagnosed a psychopath by the prison psychiatrist when he was on remand and before he was found guilty. The psychiatrist reported that besides Jeremy Bamber being a psychopath, he was a pathological liar too. He wrote that he firmly believed JB was guilty of the murders, and that was before the trial. Obviously, that information couldn’t be released in court as it would have compromised the hearing, but Jeremy Bamber knows of its existence and keeps that information hushed up. I dare say that’s why he’s taken TWENTY SEVEN polygraph tests ; he’s desperately trying to prove he isn’t a liar, but any sane person would ask why anybody would feel the need to take 27 tests...if they’re fail proof (which they’re not) surely just one would suffice? That in itself demonstrates his warped way of thinking: one doesn’t take their driving test 27 times if they passed it on the first attempt. It’s a fact that psychopaths do indeed pass polygraphs with ease, simply because they lack normal emotions.
I suspect he’s convinced himself he didn’t murder his family, despite knowing he did. A tell-take sign to his psyche is hiw he lied to Julie and told her he’d paid a hitman to kill them. He did that because he didn’t want her to think he was capable of shooting those bullets into his family’s heads. He distanced himself from it to make him look less evil. He may have also deliberately thrown in a red herring in case Julie did ever squeal...
So it’s possible he’s detached himself from the Jeremy Bamber of that night when he murdered them, and so when he says he didn’t kill them, he’s kind of telling the truth in as much as that man then wasn’t the same Jeremy Bamber as now.
His mother did accidentally drop him on his head when he was a baby, and he blamed her for him failing his medical to become a scuba diving instructor.
You’re absolutely right: head injuries can cause psychopathy depending on which part of the brain is damaged. Like you say, Fred West also received a head injury, and I believe it was after that his character changed.
I also believe that because Jeremy was good-looking, well turned out, spoke well etc...he was able (and still is) to fool people into believing he’s innocent.
Where did you get the info about the polygraph tests?
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He was diagnosed a psychopath by the prison psychiatrist when he was on remand and before he was found guilty. The psychiatrist reported that besides Jeremy Bamber being a psychopath, he was a pathological liar too. He wrote that he firmly believed JB was guilty of the murders, and that was before the trial. Obviously, that information couldn’t be released in court as it would have compromised the hearing, but Jeremy Bamber knows of its existence and keeps that information hushed up. I dare say that’s why he’s taken TWENTY SEVEN polygraph tests ; he’s desperately trying to prove he isn’t a liar, but any sane person would ask why anybody would feel the need to take 27 tests...if they’re fail proof (which they’re not) surely just one would suffice? That in itself demonstrates his warped way of thinking: one doesn’t take their driving test 27 times if they passed it on the first attempt. It’s a fact that psychopaths do indeed pass polygraphs with ease, simply because they lack normal emotions.
I suspect he’s convinced himself he didn’t murder his family, despite knowing he did. A tell-take sign to his psyche is hiw he lied to Julie and told her he’d paid a hitman to kill them. He did that because he didn’t want her to think he was capable of shooting those bullets into his family’s heads. He distanced himself from it to make him look less evil. He may have also deliberately thrown in a red herring in case Julie did ever squeal...
So it’s possible he’s detached himself from the Jeremy Bamber of that night when he murdered them, and so when he says he didn’t kill them, he’s kind of telling the truth in as much as that man then wasn’t the same Jeremy Bamber as now.
His mother did accidentally drop him on his head when he was a baby, and he blamed her for him failing his medical to become a scuba diving instructor.
You’re absolutely right: head injuries can cause psychopathy depending on which part of the brain is damaged. Like you say, Fred West also received a head injury, and I believe it was after that his character changed.
I also believe that because Jeremy was good-looking, well turned out, spoke well etc...he was able (and still is) to fool people into believing he’s innocent.
It sounds as if you're implying it was he who requested the tests, rather than the authorities insisting that he takes them?
Your observations are valid, regarding his looks, style and speech.
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Where did you get the info about the polygraph tests?
Jeremy Bamber’s “team” bring it up all the time on his disgraceful campaign forum
They boast about it “Jeremy passed TWENTY SEVEN lie detector tests!”
The irony is, they can’t see how stupid that makes him look. Why on Earth would anyone take 27 polygraph tests? He paid for them with money his weird supporters sent him.
All he’s establishing is that he’s a psychopath because psychopaths do pass the tests
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It sounds as if you're implying it was he who requested the tests, rather than the authorities insisting that he takes them?
Your observations are valid, regarding his looks, style and speech.
Yes, he arranged them himself, paid for by his weird supporters
They’re of no value whatsoever, they simply prove he’s a psychopath because psychopaths do indeed pass lie detector tests
It’s strange why he’s taken 27...he’s inferring he’s surprised by the results lol
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He's playing to the gallery.
He equates psychopath with killer and therefore if he is not a psychopath he cannot be a killer.
Many people will fall for that misconception and psychopaths just love to play the victim.
I think this article reflects the cunning of those murderers who are psychopaths,
and how they are able to go unrecognized by trained professionals.
I quote Dr. Babiak
(Psychopathy is often misread, misdiagnosed, minimized or explained away by professionals whose jobs involve regular interaction with psychopaths, particularly in the mental health, judicial and law enforcement communities. This is due to the considerable deception skills of psychopaths.
The 2012 FBI report states that the unique ability of psychopathic criminals to manipulate law enforcement authorities poses legitimate challenges for the criminal justice system. During interrogations, psychopaths are not sensitive to altruistic interview themes such as sympathy for their victims or remorse for their criminal acts. As a result of their arrogance and illusions of invulnerability, they are more likely than non-psychopaths to deny charges brought against them by authorities.
According to the FBI, there is also evidence that psychopaths are able to influence the system to either receive reduced sentences or appeal their sentences to a higher court. This is likely due to the fact that psychopaths are extremely meticulous, compulsive and relentless by nature which helps them to coerce criminal justice practitioners. Moreover, psychopaths are very adept at imitating emotions such as remorse or guilt in the courtroom if they believe it will mitigate their punishment.)
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/wicked-deeds/201701/why-psychopaths-are-effective-killers
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Jeremy Bamber’s “team” bring it up all the time on his disgraceful campaign forum
They boast about it “Jeremy passed TWENTY SEVEN lie detector tests!”
The irony is, they can’t see how stupid that makes him look. Why on Earth would anyone take 27 polygraph tests? He paid for them with money his weird supporters sent him.
All he’s establishing is that he’s a psychopath because psychopaths do pass the tests
They said he was examined 27 times but not a polygraph. Every prisoner is routinely assessed annually - they are talking about those assessments but making it sound as though he has had 27 psychological assessments - he hasn't.
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They said he was examined 27 times but not a polygraph. Every prisoner is routinely assessed annually - they are talking about those assessments but making it sound as though he has had 27 psychological assessments - he hasn't.
Ah, even more manipulation from JB...
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They said he was examined 27 times but not a polygraph. Every prisoner is routinely assessed annually - they are talking about those assessments but making it sound as though he has had 27 psychological assessments - he hasn't.
So, if JB has been assessed every year, does anyone know the results of any of these assessments-----or are these confidential to the prison service?
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He's playing to the gallery.
He equates psychopath with killer and therefore if he is not a psychopath he cannot be a killer.
Many people will fall for that misconception and psychopaths just love to play the victim.
Ok, I'm no psychiatrist-------so is it the case that some psychopaths murder, but not all murderers are psychopaths?
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So, if JB has been assessed every year, does anyone know the results of any of these assessments-----or are these confidential to the prison service?
They aren't psychological assessments as such, they are kind of like risk assessments - all prisoners have them.
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Ok, I'm no psychiatrist-------so is it the case that some psychopaths murder, but not all murderers are psychopaths?
No all psychopaths are murderers and not all murders are psychopaths.
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They aren't psychological assessments as such, they are kind of like risk assessments - all prisoners have them.
So all these frequent posts where he insists he’s passed 27 polygraphs are lies?
Ha! The irony...
I always thought it weird why he’d take 27 polygraphs; this explains it
He’s just a pathological liar
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They aren't psychological assessments as such, they are kind of like risk assessments - all prisoners have them.
Yes
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So all these frequent posts where he insists he’s passed 27 polygraphs are lies?
Ha! The irony...
I always thought it weird why he’d take 27 polygraphs; this explains it
He’s just a pathological liar
I haven't seen this claim about the polygraphs?
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So, if JB has been assessed every year, does anyone know the results of any of these assessments-----or are these confidential to the prison service?
Why would it be deemed necessary to make public the results of tests, particular or routine, done on prisoners? To the authorities, Jeremy Bamber is no more special than any other murderer, ergo, there's no reason to issue any 'health updates'.
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Why would it be deemed necessary to make public the results of tests, particular or routine, done on prisoners? To the authorities, Jeremy Bamber is no more special than any other murderer, ergo, there's no reason to issue any 'health updates'.
Was merely asking!
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I haven't seen this claim about the polygraphs?
I believe he had to jump through numerous hoops and gain HO approval to undertake the lie detector test so I doubt he has undertaken 27!?
He claims to have been assessed by 27 different psycholgists:
https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
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So, if JB has been assessed every year, does anyone know the results of any of these assessments-----or are these confidential to the prison service?
https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
There's no evidence JB is/was a psychopath. It isn't something that waxes and wanes either.
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https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
There's no evidence JB is/was a psychopath. It isn't something that waxes and wanes either.
He killed 5 people and has no remorse. That's enough evidence.
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He killed 5 people and has no remorse. That's enough evidence.
It isn't necessary for someone to be a psychopath to kill.
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He killed 5 people and has no remorse. That's enough evidence.
Rather than having no remorse (and he might have no remorse, I don't know), I think he sincerely believes that he is innocent. The big question is, does he have a mental illness of some sort that makes him think that, or is he really innocent?
As far as psychopathy is concerned, what I really wanted to know was, whether he had been diagnosed by a professional. As far as I can see, he hasn't. I don't think any of us can diagnose him (unless someone on here is a psychiatrist, AND has tested him, in which case, I apologise!!).
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Rather than having no remorse (and he might have no remorse, I don't know), I think he sincerely believes that he is innocent. The big question is, does he have a mental illness of some sort that makes him think that, or is he really innocent?
As far as psychopathy is concerned, what I really wanted to know was, whether he had been diagnosed by a professional. As far as I can see, he hasn't. I don't think any of us can diagnose him (unless someone on here is a psychiatrist, AND has tested him, in which case, I apologise!!).
So why is he evasive? He is deliberately selective about which questions he answers. He knows he’s guilty alright.
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Rather than having no remorse (and he might have no remorse, I don't know), I think he sincerely believes that he is innocent. The big question is, does he have a mental illness of some sort that makes him think that, or is he really innocent?
As far as psychopathy is concerned, what I really wanted to know was, whether he had been diagnosed by a professional. As far as I can see, he hasn't. I don't think any of us can diagnose him (unless someone on here is a psychiatrist, AND has tested him, in which case, I apologise!!).
As far as psychopathy is concerned, we can't rely on tests alone because we know that psychopaths can easily pass them. We can listen to what professionals have said of him, though. It's doubtful that their opinions will be 100% conclusive, but it would be interesting to know how high is the percentage one way or the other.
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I haven't seen this claim about the polygraphs?
I’ve seen it stated many times by his “team”
I shall find one and bring it over
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https://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/
There's no evidence JB is/was a psychopath. It isn't something that waxes and wanes either.
The consultant psychiatrist who assessed him when on remand diagnosed him as being a psychopath — and even said he believed Jeremy was guilty of the murders before the trial
I’ll find it...
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It isn't necessary for someone to be a psychopath to kill.
In which case it’s pointless him religiously trying to fool people into thinking he isn’t a psychopath...
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Rather than having no remorse (and he might have no remorse, I don't know), I think he sincerely believes that he is innocent. The big question is, does he have a mental illness of some sort that makes him think that, or is he really innocent?
As far as psychopathy is concerned, what I really wanted to know was, whether he had been diagnosed by a professional. As far as I can see, he hasn't. I don't think any of us can diagnose him (unless someone on here is a psychiatrist, AND has tested him, in which case, I apologise!!).
For fear of boring people by repeating myself, Jeremy was diagnosed with psychopathy by the consultant psychiatrist when he was on remand in prison
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For fear of boring people by repeating myself, Jeremy was diagnosed with psychopathy by the consultant psychiatrist when he was on remand in prison
That is my understanding, also.
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For fear of boring people by repeating myself, Jeremy was diagnosed with psychopathy by the consultant psychiatrist when he was on remand in prison
Yes he was but supporters argue that this psychiatrist didn't actually see Bamber, I don't know where they get that from.
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Yes he was but supporters argue that this psychiatrist didn't actually see Bamber, I don't know where they get that from.
It's entirely possible that some supporters picked, to use an example in their favour, a psychiatrist who simply had a gut instinct. However, the person I'm thinking of most certainly did see him. How, in God's name could one do a pre-trial assessment without doing so?
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It's entirely possible that some supporters picked, to use an example in their favour, a psychiatrist who simply had a gut instinct. However, the person I'm thinking of most certainly did see him. How, in God's name could one do a pre-trial assessment without doing so?
I’m sure he/she did - pointless engaging them otherwise.
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Their claims are ludicrous
Of course the psychiatrist saw Jeremy
It’s mandatory when someone’s on remand for murder to establish what their mental health is like and if they’re fit for trial.
They’re just trying to hush it up
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Has Bamber been tested recently or had a brain scan?
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Their claims are ludicrous
Of course the psychiatrist saw Jeremy
It’s mandatory when someone’s on remand for murder to establish what their mental health is like and if they’re fit for trial.
They’re just trying to hush it up
This is what men like Bamber do. They then get other so called ‘experts’ to test them later on in an attempt to present a different human being to the one they presented as back then
One of the podcasts here https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p071cll5/episodes/downloads has Dr GudJonsson discussing the Cardiff 3 case and giving his opinions. Even people like him can be duped by men like Bamber.
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Has Bamber been tested recently or had a brain scan?
No, and I bet he was never agree to a scan.
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No, and I bet he was never agree to a scan.
The problem with a scan is on who’s ‘expert’ opinion he’d rely on to interpret it
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The problem with a scan is on who’s ‘expert’ opinion he’d rely on to interpret it
Well, it would have to be an independent expert. There is a British equivalent of Prof James Fallon but I can't remember his name.
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Well, it would have to be an independent expert. There is a British equivalent of Prof James Fallon but I can't remember his name.
Has Prof Fallon ever given expert evidence in a criminal case?
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SC's mental health issues are at the heart of the case.
They are really not Holly
But this is what Bamber hoped the police would believe
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They are really not Holly
But this is what Bamber hoped the police would believe
Yep, and except for hysterical Taff almost none of the police at the scene and on the case believed Jeremy from day one.
They had him sussed alright; it just took four weeks to gather the evidence.
Meanwhile, 35 years later a handful of people still haven’t been able to join the dots up ^*&&
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They are really not Holly
But this is what Bamber hoped the police would believe
I'm not referring to the diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia. I'm referring to a high probability SC suffered an attachment disorder as a result of multiple caregivers during the early years and June's severe depression caused by her decision to adopt SC.
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I'm not referring to the diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia. I'm referring to a high probability SC suffered an attachment disorder as a result of multiple caregivers during the early years and June's severe depression caused by her decision to adopt SC.
This is what you posted Holly
Where's the evidence for this? If the police and prosecutors wanted access to JB's medi records they could obtain them without JB's permission with a warrant.
What would anyone expect to find on his medi records? He was a 24 year old man and there's no evidence he had any mental or physical health issues.
SC had a long history of mental illness and was taking prescribed medication for such. SC's mental health issues are at the heart of the case. Mind you I can't see what further evidence her records could be expected to provide.
You’d previously stated
The CCRC will only refer an application if it meets the criteria.
IMO previous appeals and CCRC applications have failed as they don't strike at the heart of the conviction which is to unequivocally undermine the blood/silencer evidence and argue it was fabricated evidence.
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This is what you posted Holly
You’d previously stated
IMO the mental illnesses suffered by June and SC go to the heart of the case. But in terms of JB's conviction the blood/silencer are at the heart of the case.
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IMO the mental illnesses suffered by June and SC go to the heart of the case. But in terms of JB's conviction the blood/silencer are at the heart of the case.
Is there any evidence JB has refused anyone access to his medi records?
I didn't say SC's at the heart of the case. I said SC's mental health issues are at the heart of the case. This isn't my opinion it's a fact. Either JB is guilty as the prosecution claim with the probable motive being his inheritance and hatred of his adoptive family. Or SC murdered her family and took her own life as the defence claim due to her mental illness.
The silencer and blood need completely undermining for an acquittal.
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IMO the mental illnesses suffered by June and SC go to the heart of the case. But in terms of JB's conviction the blood/silencer are at the heart of the case.
Not for a criminal case, you are mixing up culpability or mens rea with committing the crime actus reus.
Take the platform pusher as an example, the evidence that he was guilty of the crime was the CCTV of him doing it. The fact that he was mentally ill was a mitigating factor. Say another random mental patient had been collared nearby, dressed in similar clothes. His mental health would not be evidence that he had pushed anyone.
There is no evidence that Sheila committed this crime, regardless of her mental state.
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Has Prof Fallon ever given expert evidence in a criminal case?
I don't think so, but I think the British guy has and I still can't rememb
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I'm not referring to the diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia. I'm referring to a high probability SC suffered an attachment disorder as a result of multiple caregivers during the early years and June's severe depression caused by her decision to adopt SC.
In your professional opinion? You basically slander Fletcher and no one is allowed to refer to Bamber as a psychopath, not even the psychiatrist who classified him as one pretrial; but you're able to apply a 'high probability' diagnosis on Sheila? Also, if Sheila suffered an attachment disorder- then so did Jeremy, there's a high probability that culminated in him becoming a psychopath.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/55765296.pdf
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Does it really matter whether or not JB is a psychopath? Assuming (for now, anyway) he's guilty, he is serving his time, and isn't likely to get out.
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IMO the mental illnesses suffered by June and SC go to the heart of the case. But in terms of JB's conviction the blood/silencer are at the heart of the case.
But you’re not qualified to give an opinion on June, Sheila’s, or Jeremy’s mental conditions, Holly
You can relay what qualified psychiatrists who assessed all of them said; for example, the prison psychiatrist who diagnosed Jeremy as being a psychopath, but you’re in no position to say what you “think” they all suffered from as you’re unqualified.
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But you’re not qualified to give an opinion on June, Sheila’s, or Jeremy’s mental conditions, Holly
You can relay what qualified psychiatrists who assessed all of them said; for example, the prison psychiatrist who diagnosed Jeremy as being a psychopath, but you’re in no position to say what you “think” they all suffered from as you’re unqualified.
That is why I prefixed it with IMO!
The following is not evidence of psychopathy. Why would a psychopath need to push the awfulness of what happened at WHF to the back of the mind until it falls off when they are lacking in conscience and empathy?
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That is why I prefixed it with IMO!
The following is not evidence of psychopathy. Why would a psychopath need to push the awfulness of what happened at WHF to the back of the mind until it falls off when they are lacking in conscience and empathy?
Because he had been arrested and charged and self preservation took over.
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In your professional opinion? You basically slander Fletcher and no one is allowed to refer to Bamber as a psychopath, not even the psychiatrist who classified him as one pretrial; but you're able to apply a 'high probability' diagnosis on Sheila? Also, if Sheila suffered an attachment disorder- then so did Jeremy, there's a high probability that culminated in him becoming a psychopath.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/55765296.pdf
The psychiatrist who diagnosed JB as a psychopath? You mean an excerpt from a book that comes with poetic licence and is contradictory? Why would a psychopath need to push the awfulness of committing a heinous act to the back of the mind until it falls off when they lack a conscience and empathy enabling them to commit such an act in the fist place?
There's a crucial difference between SC and JB's upbringing and that's that SC, unlike JB, was exposed to June's severe depression during the all important attachment phase. I believe also JB had far fewer care givers during this phase too.
There's a correlation between attachment disorders and numerous issues incl psychopathy, filicide, violence and suicide.
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The psychiatrist who diagnosed JB as a psychopath? You mean an excerpt from a book that comes with poetic licence and is contradictory? Why would a psychopath need to push the awfulness of committing a heinous act to the back of the mind until it falls off when they lack a conscience and empathy enabling them to commit such an act in the fist place?
There's a crucial difference between SC and JB's upbringing and that's that SC, unlike JB, was exposed to June's severe depression during the all important attachment phase. I believe also JB had far fewer care givers during this phase too.
There's a correlation between attachment disorders and numerous issues incl psychopathy, filicide, violence and suicide.
What he said doesn't matter Holly, he classified Bamber as a psychopath and he was hired by the defence. No matter how much you play it down or try to pick away at it, in the early stages pre-trial, he WAS classified as a psychopath!
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That is why I prefixed it with IMO!
The following is not evidence of psychopathy. Why would a psychopath need to push the awfulness of what happened at WHF to the back of the mind until it falls off when they are lacking in conscience and empathy?
In order to put up a convincing display of innocence and victim hood, a bit like a method actor.
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I'm not referring to the diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia. I'm referring to a high probability SC suffered an attachment disorder as a result of multiple caregivers during the early years and June's severe depression caused by her decision to adopt SC.
Where has any psychiatrist said they thought Sheila had Paranoid Schizophrenia? Have you a link, please?
In the reports I’ve read Sheila’s psychiatrist in Harley Street believed she had MILD SCHIZOPHRENIA. And that was later in his diagnosis. When he first assessed Sheila he never suggested she even had Schizophrenia — it was only later that he came to that conclusion.
It’s a pity that Sheila wasn’t referred to another psychiatrist, not just for a second opinion, but it’s well-known that many, many doctors who rent rooms in Harley Street aren’t as qualified as they seem. I’m not saying Dr Ferguson wasn’t a fully qualified psychiatrist — I’m sure his credentials were checked by the solicitors — but even if he was an esteemed consultant psychiatrist that doesn’t mean he necessarily diagnosed Sheila correctly. It’s already been shown that there were discrepancies between him and Sheila’s GP....perhaps they should have delved deeper into that.
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Where has any psychiatrist said they thought Sheila had Paranoid Schizophrenia? Have you a link, please?
In the reports I’ve read Sheila’s psychiatrist in Harley Street believed she had MILD SCHIZOPHRENIA. And that was later in his diagnosis. When he first assessed Sheila he never suggested she even had Schizophrenia — it was only later that he came to that conclusion.
It’s a pity that Sheila wasn’t referred to another psychiatrist, not just for a second opinion, but it’s well-known that many, many doctors who rent rooms in Harley Street aren’t as qualified as they seem. I’m not saying Dr Ferguson wasn’t a fully qualified psychiatrist — I’m sure his credentials were checked by the solicitors — but even if he was an esteemed consultant psychiatrist that doesn’t mean he necessarily diagnosed Sheila correctly. It’s already been shown that there were discrepancies between him and Sheila’s GP....perhaps they should have delved deeper into that.
8((()*/
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That is why I prefixed it with IMO!
The following is not evidence of psychopathy. Why would a psychopath need to push the awfulness of what happened at WHF to the back of the mind until it falls off when they are lacking in conscience and empathy?
But your opinion is of no value to anyone as you lack the knowledge, education and expertise that profession psychiatrists have.
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But your opinion is of no value to anyone as you lack the knowledge, education and expertise that profession psychiatrists have.
Perhaps those who offer endless examples of 'evidence' of Jeremy Bamber's psychopathy should acknowledge their lack of qualifications also.
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Perhaps those who offer endless examples of 'evidence' of Jeremy Bamber's psychopathy should acknowledge their lack of qualifications also.
But it's not our qualifications we rely on, it's the qualifications of the psychiatrist that classified Bamber as a psychopath pre-trial.
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Perhaps those who offer endless examples of 'evidence' of Jeremy Bamber's psychopathy should acknowledge their lack of qualifications also.
I’ve already acknowledged that. I am not qualified but I am perceptive. I can see someone on the telly (like just now on Grayson Perry’s Art Club) and be able to tell that they are on the autistic spectrum, all without having any qualifications on the subject whatsoever.
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I’ve already acknowledged that. I am not qualified but I am perceptive. I can see someone on the telly (like just now on Grayson Perry’s Art Club) and be able to tell that they are on the autistic spectrum, all without having any qualifications on the subject whatsoever.
Can you tell I'm on the autistic spectrum from reading my posts (just as a matter of interest)?
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But it's not our qualifications we rely on, it's the qualifications of the psychiatrist that classified Bamber as a psychopath pre-trial.
Why don't you ask NGB what his views are re defence counsel discussing a case being appealed with a book author?
How come Roger Wilkes is the only author/journalist/docu maker to secure a meeting with counsel in their Chambers? What advantage/benefit to them in assisting an author?
Is it the norm for defence counsel to discuss defendents who are subsequently convicted whether they are appealing or not?
What are the Bar Council rules?
I seem to recall Paul Harrison also claimed a chance meeting with Ed Lawson?
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Can you tell I'm on the autistic spectrum from reading my posts (just as a matter of interest)?
No.
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I've got chronic OCD if anyone is interested. No?
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I've got chronic OCD if anyone is interested. No?
It’s better than having chronic bad breath, something which I’m also able to detect in others, and I’m not even a medical professional.
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It’s better than having chronic bad breath, something which I’m also able to detect in others, and I’m not even a medical professional.
LOL. Surely not if you're practising social distancing @)(++(* Bad breath at over 2m 8)><(
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I've got chronic OCD if anyone is interested. No?
How does it manifest?
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But it's not our qualifications we rely on, it's the qualifications of the psychiatrist that classified Bamber as a psychopath pre-trial.
Most of the 'evidence' quoted on here has been thought up by posters. I have seen nothing originating from this psychologist, whose name, qualifications and experience no-one seems able to supply.
For some reason I'm reminded of the Beattie BT advert;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC_-r-J69qA
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Bar Council and media comment.
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Most of the 'evidence' quoted on here has been thought up by posters. I have seen nothing originating from this psychologist, whose name, qualifications and experience no-one seems able to supply.
For some reason I'm reminded of the Beattie BT advert;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC_-r-J69qA
And yet you seem quite tolerant of the idea (dreamt up by someone who doesn’t have an ology to the best of my knowledge) that Sheila suffered from some sort of attachment disorder. Why is that, out of interest?
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Bar Council and media comment.
Why would self-employed barristers (time is money) waste time effectively gossiping about a historic case with a liitle known book author? To what end? Bar Council rules seem to rule it out?
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Anyway at least none of us are psychopaths!
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Anyway at least none of us are psychopaths!
most people endorse some aspect of psychopathy.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2016/jun/10/the-psychopath-in-you-psychopathic-traits-spectrum
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Anyway at least none of us are psychopaths!
I wouldn't be too sure about that.
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Perhaps those who offer endless examples of 'evidence' of Jeremy Bamber's psychopathy should acknowledge their lack of qualifications also.
One doesn’t need to be a trained musician to know Beethoven composed beautiful music, Gunit.
In just the same way they don’t need to be trained to know when someone isn’t a musician.
Anyone of average intelligence can see that Jeremy Bamber is a psychopath...don’t you agree? 😌
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One doesn’t need to be a trained musician to know Beethoven composed beautiful music, Gunit.
In just the same way they don’t need to be trained to know when someone isn’t a musician.
Anyone of average intelligence can see that Jeremy Bamber is a psychopath...don’t you agree? 😌
I assume you think there's no need for psychiatrists and psychologists then? Are those of average intelligence able to replace any other medical professionals in your opinion? It would save the NHS a fortune in wages if so.
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I assume you think there's no need for psychiatrists and psychologists then? Are those of average intelligence able to replace any other medical professionals in your opinion? It would save the NHS a fortune in wages if so.
Well actually, it's you who disputes what the psychiatrist said about Jeremy pre-trial.
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I assume you think there's no need for psychiatrists and psychologists then? Are those of average intelligence able to replace any other medical professionals in your opinion? It would save the NHS a fortune in wages if so.
Psychiatrists and psychologists don’t exist solely to diagnose psychopaths. It is possible for a perceptive and well educated lay person to id someone with personality disorders imo.
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Psychiatrists and psychologists don’t exist solely to diagnose psychopaths. It is possible for a perceptive and well educated lay person to id someone with personality disorders imo.
Average intelligence plus perceptive and well educated? So many generalisations and assumptions. Jasper Carrott was good at it;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYYo49R_ZS0
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Average intelligence plus perceptive and well educated? So many generalisations and assumptions. Jasper Carrott was good at it;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYYo49R_ZS0
I didn’t mention average intelligence, thst was someone else. If you don’t think it is possible for a layperson who is perceptive and well-educated to tell if someone msy have a personality disorder either through personal experience of them or through researching their behaviour and actions then perhaps you could explain why not.
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I didn’t mention average intelligence, thst was someone else. If you don’t think it is possible for a layperson who is perceptive and well-educated to tell if someone msy have a personality disorder either through personal experience of them or through researching their behaviour and actions then perhaps you could explain why not.
How do you recognise a perceptive person, and what is, in your opinion, a well-educated person? In my opinion perceptiveness is something others decide we have, not us. It's also a complicated question as to what being well-educated means.
https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/12/04/defining-educated-person
Until you can define what you mean by those words you can't use them as a benchmark.
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How do you recognise a perceptive person, and what is, in your opinion, a well-educated person? In my opinion perceptiveness is something others decide we have, not us. It's also a complicated question as to what being well-educated means.
https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/12/04/defining-educated-person
Until you can define what you mean by those words you can't use them as a benchmark.
You use the word 'qualified' quite often - how do you define that? Is someone only qualified if they have a certificate or would experience count? Unless you can define that word, you can't use it as a benchmark.
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How do you recognise a perceptive person, and what is, in your opinion, a well-educated person? In my opinion perceptiveness is something others decide we have, not us. It's also a complicated question as to what being well-educated means.
https://www.gse.harvard.edu/news/12/04/defining-educated-person
Until you can define what you mean by those words you can't use them as a benchmark.
I can do what I like and leave you to play your sematic word games with someone else.
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One doesn’t need to be a trained musician to know Beethoven composed beautiful music, Gunit.
In just the same way they don’t need to be trained to know when someone isn’t a musician.
Anyone of average intelligence can see that Jeremy Bamber is a psychopath...don’t you agree? 😌
No, I don't. As far as I'm aware, I'm of at least average intelligence, and I have no idea whether or not JB is a psychopath.
I agree with you re Beethoven, but not everyone likes his music, by the way!
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There overall demeanour and behaviour whilst being interviewed probsbly would, and eyes are a window into the soul (if there is one). These are not exact sciences after all.
If you're right, that's very bad news for me, as I have Asperger's, and it affects body language. I shall have to live in hope that I'm never interviewed by the police!
You ARE right in one sense though-----IMO---job interviews. I always had immense trouble in convincing interview panels that I was actually a reasonable teacher. Glad I've retired!
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If you're right, that's very bad news for me, as I have Asperger's, and it affects body language. I shall have to live in hope that I'm never interviewed by the police!
You ARE right in one sense though-----IMO---job interviews. I always had immense trouble in convincing interview panels that I was actually a reasonable teacher. Glad I've retired!
For some reason my post to which you replied above was deleted. Was it offensive?
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For some reason my post to which you replied above was deleted. Was it offensive?
So was mine, and I only spoke about composers 😤
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For some reason my post to which you replied above was deleted. Was it offensive?
No, it wasn't offensive, and it wasn't deleted. It has moved to the "Wandering off Topic" thread. John seems to have split the thread. !!
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So was mine, and I only spoke about composers 😤
I think you will find your post is now in the "Wandering off Topic" thread.