Time of Death.

[faithlilly]

One of the most important elements of a murder investigation is to establish a time of death accurately through forensic examination.. Unfortunately in this case this was never done and if reports are correct the time of death was established with reference to the police’s main suspect’s movements that night.

I have never heard of this happening before in a case and if true it would have been impossible for it not to have skewed the whole investigation.

So why was a time of death never established in the conventional way and what effect did it have on the proceeding investigation?

[faithlilly]

So no one wants to discuss one of the most important facts in the whole case, that of when Jodi died.

Now that is illuminating although not entirely surprising.

[Venturi Swirl]

Who says time of death was never established?  Do you have a cite?  From someone who isn’t Sandra Lean?

[Nicholas]

Who says time of death was never established?  Do you have a cite?  From someone who isn’t Sandra Lean?

 

[faithlilly]

So was time of death established forensically?

[Nicholas]

So was time of death established forensically?

I suspect it was an estimated TOD - like many of these cases

[Bullseye]

So was time of death established forensically?

Don’t think it was

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=e2988aa6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7


It was important to note that, despite the position adopted by the Crown, the time of the deceased's death was never established in evidence. There was insufficient evidence to suggest that she had been murdered between the sighting of the male thought by Mrs Bryson to be the appellant, and his subsequent suggested sightings by other witnesses.

And

Although the pathologists were unable to fix a time of death, the untoward sound heard by Leonard Kelly as he cycled along the Roan's Dyke Path would fit with the attack upon her having taken place behind the wall at that time.

[faithlilly]

Don’t think it was

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=e2988aa6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7


It was important to note that, despite the position adopted by the Crown, the time of the deceased's death was never established in evidence. There was insufficient evidence to suggest that she had been murdered between the sighting of the male thought by Mrs Bryson to be the appellant, and his subsequent suggested sightings by other witnesses.

And

Although the pathologists were unable to fix a time of death, the untoward sound heard by Leonard Kelly as he cycled along the Roan's Dyke Path would fit with the attack upon her having taken place behind the wall at that time.

Thank you Bullseye for the information.

Of course Leonard Kelly’s testimony is problematic in itself.

“ Donald Findlay, QC, for the defence, read a statement that Mr Kelly gave police in July 2003, which said: “I cannot describe the noise. It wasn’t a voice. It sounded of movement, like branches moving on a tree.” Asked by Mr Findlay why he made no reference to strangling noises in his statement, the witness said: “I just put it down to nerves.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/strangling-noise-was-heard-by-cyclist-near-jodi-murder-scene-fg7tnqnw8z5

[Parky41]

Firstly - as far as I am aware - I have never stated once that the pathologist claimed that the TOD was at 5.15pm. What the pathology report did not do was make the investigation TOD impossible.

Let's do this in sequence - The autopsy was carried. The 1st of July. And from this due to many factors. Contrary to what you may appear to believe. It is very much impossible to give a definitive TOD. This estimate and all else in the report consist of several things - One we do know of. The ingesting of cannabis up to two hours before death. We hear of this til the cows come home - which of late has completely backfired on the nonsense claims that have been touted out for years. That Jodi had to have gotten this from someone else as there was none in LM's bloods (that is for another topic)

The police at the time of this report have absolutely no idea of what you make in your post - Of THEIR suspects, as you put it's, clear movements from the evening Jodi died.

Let us use a couple of examples here:

A man goes to the police. He had gotten home from work at 7pm to find his wife had been murdered. He left for work at 11am (confirmed) and claimed she was fine. Now let us use two estimated TOD - One is 12-4pm The husband is off the hook. One is 10.30 until 2.30pm. He is then very much in the frame.Other evidence is gathered and the TOD from the investigation is put as 10.45am..

A family are murdered. One in the yard in sub zero temps. One in the lounge next to a fire and one upstairs in the bathroom. The estimated TOD's forensically vary considerably due to the different climates from where the bodies were found. An investigation is had. Someones is seen entering the grounds at x time and leaving at z time. With a gun (they were shot) The investigation TOD is now Y.

Both the above are through the investigation assessed TOD and are or are not supported by the estimated TOD's, forensically.

As we have in this case. LM was witnessed. LM was not in his house. Jodi was last seen leaving home by her mother around 4.50pm to meet with LM. A female was with LM. LM reappeared at 17.40pm There was no girl with him. LK did hear noises. And this branches to strangling - you are omitting that LK stopped when he heard rustling. Listened briefly and the noises stopped. So the investigation put their TOD around 5.15pm around the time of noises. Which was supported by the pathology report - not the other way around.

And as above. Of now this very unclear failure being put out on behalf of the coroner - that they also did not carry out proper testing. Which is not new, Ms Lean has been putting this out for years - her new followers getting to hear this, "it may be possible to show that Jodi died later" Then onto the funeral went ahead too quick, then onto every other test being done on the wrong basis - and ultimately "we will never know"

And due to that simple fact - that there was and could not be a definitive TOD forensically - is the very reason since day dot - that has left every other possible scenario open. Of the possibility of Jodi being held captive somewhere and murdered elsewhere later. - supported by absolutely not one piece of evidence other than the TOD forensically did not have to be 5.15pm. But there has never been that Jodi could NOT have died at this time. I think it is around three years now that Ms Lean has been claiming to "maybe prove this" - To then be saying of late. Be patient, "expect nothing to be happening for around 5-10yrs"

And for this with JF and all else before the Jury - well if you want to use the the variance in estimated TOD then perhaps you should stop bleating on about them. For you continually try to tie them in as possibly being responsible in and around that TOD by the police.

So the chicken and the egg - The estimated TOD first not this, what the police chose to need. Then the two are put together to establish when it is believed the girl had actually died.

[Brietta]

There are actually three different times of death:

• The physiologic time of death, when the victim’s vital functions actually ceased.
• The legal time of death, the time recorded on the death certificate.
• The estimated time of death, the time the medical examiner estimates that death occurred.

It is important to note that the estimated time of death can vary greatly from the legal time of death and the physiologic time of death.

The only absolutely accurate determination of the time of death is the uncommon circumstance in which a person died with a physician or other skilled medical professional present.
The doctor could make the determination and mark the time, and even this is assuming his watch or the clock on the wall was accurate.
But that little inaccuracy aside, a death witnessed in this fashion is the only time that the three above times of death would correlate with one another.

[faithlilly]

There are actually three different times of death:

• The physiologic time of death, when the victim’s vital functions actually ceased.
• The legal time of death, the time recorded on the death certificate.
• The estimated time of death, the time the medical examiner estimates that death occurred.

It is important to note that the estimated time of death can vary greatly from the legal time of death and the physiologic time of death.

The only absolutely accurate determination of the time of death is the uncommon circumstance in which a person died with a physician or other skilled medical professional present.
The doctor could make the determination and mark the time, and even this is assuming his watch or the clock on the wall was accurate.
But that little inaccuracy aside, a death witnessed in this fashion is the only time that the three above times of death would correlate with one another.

You forgot the link

https://coronertalk.com/28

[faithlilly]

Firstly - as far as I am aware - I have never stated once that the pathologist claimed that the TOD was at 5.15pm. What the pathology report did not do was make the investigation TOD impossible.

Let's do this in sequence - The autopsy was carried. The 1st of July. And from this due to many factors. Contrary to what you may appear to believe. It is very much impossible to give a definitive TOD. This estimate and all else in the report consist of several things - One we do know of. The ingesting of cannabis up to two hours before death. We hear of this til the cows come home - which of late has completely backfired on the nonsense claims that have been touted out for years. That Jodi had to have gotten this from someone else as there was none in LM's bloods (that is for another topic)

Agreed a definitive TOD would be all but impossible but what would have helped is if proper procedures had been carried out at the locus to ascertain at least the timeframe in which the death occurred. It could certainly have been narrowed down further than over 6 hours, the time between Jodi leaving the house and her body being found.

Anyhow how was TOD calculated in this case?

A) Leonard Kelly hearing a strangling sound around 5.15. Problematic. LK in his first statement doesn't mention a strangling sound. In fact he specifically says that it wasn’t a voice but  “movement, like branches moving on a tree”.

B) The sighting of AB. Again problematic. AB’s first two statements put her sighting around an hour later than her testimony in court. Her identification of Luke was not carried out as per police procedures in place at the time and she also did not identify him in court.

C) RW’s sighting. Again problematic and again the identification of Luke was not carried out as per police procedures at the time. The youth she saw was leaning on a gate, in view of all the passing traffic, not fleeing from the scene as any murderer with any sense would have been. RW put the youth at the same location at 5.45 as a jogger that she had recalled seeing crossing the Newbattle bridge. The jogger, however, put herself much nearer to Newbattle Abbey College at 5.45 and at a location where Luke had been identified by other witnesses. Therefore there is the possibility this was Luke but, as confirmed by the jogger’s route, he was much further up the Newbattle Road.



As we have in this case. LM was witnessed. LM was not in his house. Jodi was last seen leaving home by her mother around 4.50pm to meet with LM. A female was with LM. LM reappeared at 17.40pm There was no girl with him. LK did hear noises. And this branches to strangling - you are omitting that LK stopped when he heard rustling. Listened briefly and the noises stopped. So the investigation put their TOD around 5.15pm around the time of noises. Which was supported by the pathology report - not the other way around.

LK stopped? Really ?

“The judge, Lord Nimmo Smith, asked Mr Kelly later whether he had been worried about the fact that he had not stopped.

The witness replied: ''(Of) course I was.''

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12410745.witness-heard-strangling-sound-near-path-the-day-jodi-died/

The pathology report in no way supported the TOD concocted by L&B police.




And due to that simple fact - that there was and could not be a definitive TOD forensically - is the very reason since day dot - that has left every other possible scenario open. Of the possibility of Jodi being held captive somewhere and murdered elsewhere later. - supported by absolutely not one piece of evidence other than the TOD forensically did not have to be 5.15pm. But there has never been that Jodi could NOT have died at this time.


Like every miscarriage of justice it started with a tunnel-visioned police force who, determinedly, fitted the evidence to to the suspect and not vice versa as it should have been.