Author Topic: Multiple reasons why Sheila Caffell is innocent and Jeremy Bamber is guilty  (Read 273564 times)

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Offline Myster

First prize for    of the month !
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline lane99

A killer who was determined to commit suicide after killing everyone else would not have any reason to worry in advance about moving the phone...

I don't agree.  Whether the end game included suicide or not, I don't see why a killer might not want to preclude the possibility (for reasons both practical and psychological) that their victims could call for help and/or alert others to the attack. 


...If Sheila intended to commit murder suicide why would she take a bath and change her clothes before killing herself?  Never are Jeremy's supporters able to explain this away. Those who respond typically will respond that maybe she didn't intend to kill herself and only decided to do so after she took the bath and changed.

Explain what away?  You've asked a question there, not provided any reasoning.  I can certainly think of a number of potential reasons why she might have bathed and changed with the full intent all along of committing suicide.  And these would be reasons that I believe we'd find echoed in other cases of both suicide and murder-suicide.

So, were I a supporter of Jeremy Bamber, to the question of why she would have done that, it seems to me the initial response need be nothing more than "well, why wouldn't she?".

« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 10:32:23 PM by lane99 »

Offline scipio_usmc

I don't agree.  Whether the end game included suicide or not, I don't see why a killer might not want to preclude the possibility (for reasons both practical and psychological) that their victims could call for help and/or alert others to the attack.

Produce an example of where a killer decided to commit murder suicide and hid a phone from the victims hours in advance let alone an example where it supposedly was mental illness that caused the person to resport to murder suicide as opposed to someone who lost their job and could not support their family, or were depressed from losing a spouse or the like.

The fact of the matter is that only people who carefully plan a murder remove a phone in advance. Murders are carefully planned in order to get away with murder.  Such people intend to get away with the crime so do not  want authorities to arrive before they have a change to leave the scene and remove any incriminating evidence. Moreover they do not want their victims to identify themas the killer to anone before the victims die.

I overthink everything but if I planned to murder my family and commit suicide I could not care less if they reached a phone and dialed 911 successfully before I shot them.  By th etime anyone could reach he house everyone including me would be dead.

If not even I would bother then why would a person in a crazy ramage think of it in advance and better yet how would the crazy person know they would later be in a crazy rampage?

The fact of the matter is that removing the phone was a sign of preplanning not consistent with the claims made of Sheila doing this in a crazy rage and in fact is something that someone who intends to flee without getting caught would resort to.

Explain what away?  You've asked a question there, not provided any reasoning.  I can certainly think of a number of potential reasons why she might have bathed and changed with the full intent all along of committing suicide.  And these would be reasons that I believe we'd find echoed in other cases of both suicide and murder-suicide.

So, were I a supporter of Jeremy Bamber, to the question of why she would have done that, it seems to me the initial response need be nothing more than "well, why wouldn't she?".

In what cases did mothers who decided to commit murder suicide kill their entire family and then take a bath and change their clothes so they could be nice and clean when they killed themselves? 

It doesn't make any sense at all to do such and I have not found any exemples of such.

At best there are examples of people who didn't intend to commit suicide from the outset but rather simply to commit murder who cleaned up and tried to act as if they committed no crime but could no live with the guilt and ended up killing themselves as well. 

Taking a bath and changing clothes to wash away evidence is by definition acts conducted in order to attempt to escape liability.  There is thus a trend here.

Both removing the phone in advance and the alleged claim to taking a bath and changing clothes are consistent with a killer intending to try to escape libaility not one who planned to commit suicide.

This runs completely counter to what Jeremy asserts.  Jeremy asserts his sister went into a crazy rampage in the middle of the night (hours after he left the house) not that she planned to murder everyone and escape liability but was unable to do so. 

Removing the phone in advance is not consistent with these claims nor would taking a bath and changing clothes be consistent wih it.

His supporters need to do 2 things.

1) Explain why Sheila would decide instead of killing herself immediately after killing everyone to take a bath first and and change her clothes before shooting herself

and

2) Provide evidence that she took a bath and changed her clothes. Was her hair still wet?  DId her hair have evidence of being washed?  What was she wearing during the murders and where did she place such clothes.  No diry nightgowns were found only soaking panties. Why wouldn't she put on fresh panies if she planned to kill herself? Why would she be worried about ruining panties with blood from her period if she was killing herself and no longer would need clothes?   

Her supporters have no evidence she took a bath or changed her clothes and no rational explanation of why she would do either.

The burden of proof rests with them I don't have to prove a negative.

 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline lane99

The burden of proof rests with the one making the assertion.  Which in this case is you.

Offline scipio_usmc

The burden of proof rests with the one making the assertion.  Which in this case is you.

You are playing foolish games.

You are the one asserting that a killer determined to commit murder suicide has reason to hide a phone in advance and to bathe and change before committing suicide.  You even claimed it happened before.

I explained why your assertions make no sense and are therefore unfounded and challenged you to post examples of this actually occurring. You can't because it makes no sense and hasn't happened, instead you are trying to pretend I bear the burden of proof.

The bottom line is you failed to establish your claims and know you can't establish your claims so are trying to make those challenging you to prove a negative knowing that isn't possible. I don't need to prove a negative though you bear the burden of proof to establish your claims and failed to do so.     

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Produce an example of where a killer decided to commit murder suicide and hid a phone from the victims hours in advance let alone an example where it supposedly was mental illness that caused the person to resport to murder suicide as opposed to someone who lost their job and could not support their family, or were depressed from losing a spouse or the like.

The fact of the matter is that only those people who carefully plan a murder remove a phone in advance. Murders are carefully planned in order to get away with murder.  Such people intend to get away with the crime so do not  want authorities to arrive before they have a change to leave the scene and remove any incriminating evidence. Moreover they do not want their victims to identify themas the killer to anone before the victims die.

I overthink everything but if I planned to murder my family and commit suicide I could not care less if they reached a phone and dialed 911 successfully before I shot them.  By th etime anyone could reach he house everyone including me would be dead.

If not even I would bother then why would a person in a crazy ramage think of it in advance and better yet how would the crazy person know they would later be in a crazy rampage?

The fact of the matter is that removing the phone was a sign of preplanning not consistent with the claims made of Sheila doing this in a crazy rage and in fact is something that someone who intends to flee without getting caught would resort to.

In what cases did mothers who decided to commit murder suicide kill their entire family and then take a bath and change their clothes so they could be nice and clean when they killed themselves? 

It doesn't make any sense at all to do such and I have not found any exemples of such.

At best there are examples of people who didn't intend to commit suicide from the outset but rather simply to commit murder who cleaned up and tried to act as if they committed no crime but could no live with the guilt and ended up killing themselves as well. 

Taking a bath and changing clothes to wash away evidence is by definition acts conducted in order to attempt to escape liability.  There is thus a trend here.

Both removing the phone in advance and the alleged claim to taking a bath and changing clothes are consistent with a killer intending to try to escape libaility not one who planned to commit suicide.

This runs completely counter to what Jeremy asserts.  Jeremy asserts his sister went into a crazy rampage in the middle of the night (hours after he left the house) not that she planned to murder everyone and escape liability but was unable to do so. 

Removing the phone in advance is not consistent with these claims nor would taking a bath and changing clothes be consistent wih it.

His supporters need to do 2 things.

1) Explain why Sheila would decide instead of killing herself immediately after killing everyone to take a bath first and and change her clothes before shooting herself

and

2) Provide evidence that she took a bath and changed her clothes. Was her hair still wet?  DId her hair have evidence of being washed?  What was she wearing during the murders and where did she place such clothes.  No diry nightgowns were found only soaking panties. Why wouldn't she put on fresh panies if she planned to kill herself? Why would she be worried about ruining panties with blood from her period if she was killing herself and no longer would need clothes?   

Her supporters have no evidence she took a bath or changed her clothes and no rational explanation of why she would do either.

The burden of proof rests with them I don't have to prove a negative.

I really must get round to mastering the splitting of quotes.  I think this has now grown so enormous in my mind that I can't face dealing with it for fear of failure  >@@(*&) I need someone to hold my hand and gently guide me through it!  Are you able to help me Scipio  8**8:/:

Re your "The fact of the matter is that only people who carefully plan a murder remove a phone in advance".  Would these be the same people who would use a silencer then leave it at the soc, albeit in its rightful place, with 'incriminating evidence attached' by way of blood, paint and a hair? 

Re your 1) and 2) above:

1) Without wishing to sound flippant I guess in SC's mind she was going to meet her maker and of course would want to look her best.  We know for a fact from Dr F's wit stats that misguided religion played a part in SC's and June's thinking/mental illnesses.  Around March '85 SC had a psychotic episode during which she told her friend Freddie (wit stat) that contrary to what her mother (June) had said God did love her.  It seems unlikely that SC would not believe in an afterlife and on this basis she would want to be clean on arrival. 

2) I understand there were 2 or 3 buckets of clothes left to soak in the kitchen.  These should have been removed by EP for analysis.  Do we have any record of a visual inspection ie a soc officer recording the content?  I understand AE took the contents away?  This being the case why?  What did she want them for?  Why not throw them out at WHF?  What would AE want with a pair of blood stained pants and possibly other items of clothing?  What happened to the leggings hanging over the bannisters?  Oh and the slippers recovered from SC's room?  Oh and the socks found by SC?  Why were these items not analysed by FSS?  EP asked AE about the bucket(s)/blood stained pants/clothing and she said it was menstrual blood.  EP (Stan Jones I think) asked how she knew and she said it smells different.  EP said you make sure you tell the court that.  It's all in her wit stats.

Prof Knight @ trial spoke about instances where those who have committed suicide cleaned up afterwards.

91. Professor Knight, another defence witness, lent support to Dr Bradley's evidence as to the feature of excessive violence in parental killings. He also spoke of instances where the murderer (having killed their spouses in most cases) has then gone about some mundane or "ritualistic" task, such as cleaning up before committing suicide

Re the phones the housekeeper, Jean Boutell, referred to their movement as like "musical chairs".  I don't see any significance in the bedroom phone being found in the kitchen especially as the cordless phone had been taken away for repair. 





Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

I really must get round to mastering the splitting of quotes.  I think this has now grown so enormous in my mind that I can't face dealing with it for fear of failure  >@@(*&) I need someone to hold my hand and gently guide me through it!  Are you able to help me Scipio  8**8:/:

I already lead you by the hand in a previous post. I can't explain it any simpler than I did there.

Re your "The fact of the matter is that only people who carefully plan a murder remove a phone in advance".  Would these be the same people who would use a silencer then leave it at the soc, albeit in its rightful place, with 'incriminating evidence attached' by way of blood, paint and a hair? 

Jeremy either didn't realize it had blood inside (probably having no greater understanding of back splatter than you do despite being schooled on the subject repeatedly) or did not care because he didn't expect police to examine the suppressor or other items in the closet. 

Re your 1) and 2) above:
1) Without wishing to sound flippant I guess in SC's mind she was going to meet her maker and of course would want to look her best.  We know for a fact from Dr F's wit stats that misguided religion played a part in SC's and June's thinking/mental illnesses.  Around March '85 SC had a psychotic episode during which she told her friend Freddie (wit stat) that contrary to what her mother (June) had said God did love her.  It seems unlikely that SC would not believe in an afterlife and on this basis she would want to be clean on arrival.

Suicide is a mortal sin as is murder. If she were religious than tshe would expect to go to hell for her actions. The notion she didn't mind committing these mortal sins.  Moreover religious peopel believe their soul goes to heaven not their body.  So a dirty body would have no bearing on anything it would not leave Earth.  The notion she didn't mind committing these mortal sins but wanted to have a clean body for God is downright stupid not merely absurd.  One has to wonder how much effort it takes you to come up with such rubbish.

2) I understand there were 2 or 3 buckets of clothes left to soak in the kitchen.  These should have been removed by EP for analysis.  Do we have any record of a visual inspection ie a soc officer recording the content?  I understand AE took the contents away?  This being the case why?  What did she want them for?  Why not throw them out at WHF?  What would AE want with a pair of blood stained pants and possibly other items of clothing?  What happened to the leggings hanging over the bannisters?  Oh and the slippers recovered from SC's room?  Oh and the socks found by SC?  Why were these items not analysed by FSS?  EP asked AE about the bucket(s)/blood stained pants/clothing and she said it was menstrual blood.  EP (Stan Jones I think) asked how she knew and she said it smells different.  EP said you make sure you tell the court that.  It's all in her wit stats.

I have not seen any accounting of evidence that establishes there were buckets of clothes soaking.  Provide a reputable source for the claim.  It was a claim made on the blue forum but they never backed it up with any evidence.

As for knowing the blood was menstrual on the panties, she was on her period according to the pathologist who examined her body, she had a tampon inside her and the blood was considerable not tiny drops. It is a natural deduction that it was menstrual. How else would the blood get inside her panties?

The burden of proof rests with you to prove there were other clothes that she wore that night.  What other nightgowns were there covered with evidence that were soaking? 



Prof Knight @ trial spoke about instances where those who have committed suicide cleaned up afterwards.

91. Professor Knight, another defence witness, lent support to Dr Bradley's evidence as to the feature of excessive violence in parental killings. He also spoke of instances where the murderer (having killed their spouses in most cases) has then gone about some mundane or "ritualistic" task, such as cleaning up before committing suicide

You mean like the guy who washed his car afterwards?  Oh that's right he washed it before the murders you had no idea what you were talking about. What examples did Knight provide of people who were determined to commit murder suicide who washed up and changed clothes?  None! 

I pointed a specific question to you.  Yes there are examples of people who initially planned to get away with murder who tried to clean up but when they realized they were going to be caught or they felt so horrible for their actions they ended up comitting suicide instead of facing justice. 

I challenged you to provide an example of someone who decided to commit murder suicide who washed up to conceal evidence and change their clothes despite having the full intenetion of dying right after.  That doesn't happen which is why you can't provide examples.

Re the phones the housekeeper, Jean Boutell, referred to their movement as like "musical chairs".  I don't see any significance in the bedroom phone being found in the kitchen especially as the cordless phone had been taken away for repair.

This is another example of how you are too biased to be honest.  Boutell referred to phones being moved when they broke.  When the kitchen phone broke they often moved the bedroom phone to replace it.  The problem is that the kitchen phone wasn't broken.  It was unplugged and hidden and replaced with the bedroom phone. 

For all we know Jeremy broke the cordless phone on purpose or merely said it was broken to get rid of it because it is the only phone in the house that recorded the history and thus would have killed his claims about the phone call. Whether he did or not makes no difference.  The fact of the matter is that the bedroom phone didn't replace the cordless phone.  The kitchen phone and bedroom phone were both not plugged in in the kitchen only the bedroom phone was plugged in. 

Normally the cordless phone and another phone were both plugged in the kitchen phone jacks. The cordless phone was removed to be repaired.  The other phone which worked properly was also removed and hidden leaving no phones plugged in the kitchen. The bedroom phone was brought to the kitchen so there would be a phone plugged in the kitchen phone jack. No one knew where the regilar kitchen phone was because it was hidden.   

To anyone honest and objective it is suspicious because there was no valid reason to hide the working phone and replace it with the bedroom phone.  Your claim there was nothing wrong with this just demonstrates why you don't have any credibility. 

« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 05:50:37 PM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline goatboy

Ann Eaton mentions the blood soaked clothing in her statements:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3168.0

Some of Bamber's supporters genuinely try to claim that Ann Eaton extracted some of Sheila's menstrual blood from the clothing and placed it in the sound moderator.

Words fail me.

Offline scipio_usmc

Ann Eaton mentions the blood soaked clothing in her statements:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3168.0

Some of Bamber's supporters genuinely try to claim that Ann Eaton extracted some of Sheila's menstrual blood from the clothing and placed it in the sound moderator.

Words fail me.

Can you tell me on what page?  The only mention of clothing that I can locate is near the bottom of page 8 (stamped 132). It concerns police asking Ann Eaton whether specific articles of clothing found upstairs belonged to Sheila or June. I can't find any reference to bloody clothing.

 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline goatboy

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1053.0

Sorry, wrong statement, page 44 of the above.

Offline scipio_usmc

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1053.0

Sorry, wrong statement, page 44 of the above.

Figures I should have waited, I actually found it on my own but had to read a lot to find it.

It mentions 3 buckets with clothes soaking. It only describes the knickers as being bloody though, none of the other buckets nor does it describe what was in the other 2 buckets.

It was not a total waste of a read though. Some interesting things were there. Jeremy lied repeatedly to Ann and others and this made her extremely suspicious.  One of those lies was that the gun did not fit in the cupboard with the suppressor and scope attached but this was a lie. Another is that Sheila had gone shooting with Anthony and Nevill. Anthony denied the claim and even Jeremy ended up recanting it and stating to police later on that he never saw his sister handle guns as an adult.  Never do Jeremy supporters address this lie or the lie he told police on the scene that Sheila had fired all the weapons in the house and was proficient with them.

Something else interesting is that Ann pointed out there was a spare key that Jeremy could have pointed police to. However he instead made them bust in. He didn't want them to sneak in early on so didn't tell them about the key.  If they knew they could quietly enter using the key they would have been more apt to try.

Another thing is that the cousins took possession of all the guns in the house not merely the suppressor and scope.  They were charged by Cook with taking the weapons and ammo.  Interestingly Ann seems to have more firearms knowledge than the police and even Jeremy.  Having police who don't use firearms and thus have limited firearm's knowledge definitely hurts in cases where guns are used. 

There was an ammo carrier next to the suppressor which means presuambly the killer didn't need to run to the kitchen to relaod. The killer actually was carrying ammo around the house.

One of the main criticisms of Jeremy supporters is why the cousins didn't turn the suppressor over to police right away. They took charge of everything though not just the suppressor. That is why police had to obtain it from them.

Another issue is that June only bought the bike 1-2 weeks before she was murdered. I now see why police grilled him on the issue of how long the bike was at his house. He basically was claiming it was stored at his house before she even bought it. Why would she buy a bike and then immediately store it at his house? 

The more details you look at the worse it gets for Jeremy.  His claims were inconsistent. In one breath he told Ann that he didn't know how urgent it really was so that is why he didn't call 999. (He later told police it was because he didn't think it would matter in terms of response time) In the next breath he told her he didn't go because he was scared they were trying to lure him there to kill him.  So which was it?  Did he think there was really nothing wrong or that he was being set up to be shot?  Not surprising at all that Ann got suspicious.   
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 07:35:08 PM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

I already lead you by the hand in a previous post. I can't explain it any simpler than I did there.

Jeremy either didn't realize it had blood inside (probably having no greater understanding of back splatter than you do despite being schooled on the subject repeatedly) or did not care because he didn't expect police to examine the suppressor or other items in the closet. 
 
Suicide is a mortal sin as is murder. If she were religious than tshe would expect to go to hell for her actions. The notion she didn't mind committing these mortal sins.  Moreover religious peopel believe their soul goes to heaven not their body.  So a dirty body would have no bearing on anything it would not leave Earth.  The notion she didn't mind committing these mortal sins but wanted to have a clean body for God is downright stupid not merely absurd.  One has to wonder how much effort it takes you to come up with such rubbish.

I have not seen any accounting of evidence that establishes there were buckets of clothes soaking.  Provide a reputable source for the claim.  It was a claim made on the blue forum but they never backed it up with any evidence.

As for knowing the blood was menstrual on the panties, she was on her period according to the pathologist who examined her body, she had a tampon inside her and the blood was considerable not tiny drops. It is a natural deduction that it was menstrual. How else would the blood get inside her panties?

The burden of proof rests with you to prove there were other clothes that she wore that night.  What other nightgowns were there covered with evidence that were soaking? 


You mean like the guy who washed his car afterwards?  Oh that's right he washed it before the murders you had no idea what you were talking about. What examples did Knight provide of people who were determined to commit murder suicide who washed up and changed clothes?  None! 

I pointed a specific question to you.  Yes there are examples of people who initially planned to get away with murder who tried to clean up but when they realized they were going to be caught or they felt so horrible for their actions they ended up comitting suicide instead of facing justice. 

I challenged you to provide an example of someone who decided to commit murder suicide who washed up to conceal evidence and change their clothes despite having the full intenetion of dying right after.  That doesn't happen which is why you can't provide examples.

This is another example of how you are too biased to be honest.  Boutell referred to phones being moved when they broke.  When the kitchen phone broke they often moved the bedroom phone to replace it.  The problem is that the kitchen phone wasn't broken.  It was unplugged and hidden and replaced with the bedroom phone. 

For all we know Jeremy broke the cordless phone on purpose or merely said it was broken to get rid of it because it is the only phone in the house that recorded the history and thus would have killed his claims about the phone call. Whether he did or not makes no difference.  The fact of the matter is that the bedroom phone didn't replace the cordless phone.  The kitchen phone and bedroom phone were both not plugged in in the kitchen only the bedroom phone was plugged in. 

Normally the cordless phone and another phone were both plugged in the kitchen phone jacks. The cordless phone was removed to be repaired.  The other phone which worked properly was also removed and hidden leaving no phones plugged in the kitchen. The bedroom phone was brought to the kitchen so there would be a phone plugged in the kitchen phone jack. No one knew where the regilar kitchen phone was because it was hidden.   

To anyone honest and objective it is suspicious because there was no valid reason to hide the working phone and replace it with the bedroom phone.  Your claim there was nothing wrong with this just demonstrates why you don't have any credibility.

Yes thank you Scipio for your instructions re the quote splitting.  I will endeavour to retrieve this and re-read it. You are so masterful  8**8:/:

The silencer didn't just have blood inside did it?  It supposedly had blood, paint and hair on the outside so if it was a carefully planned murder, as you state, why not run it under the tap and give it a good clean?

I believe suicide is seen as a sin as far as Christianity goes but we know  SC discussed suicide with not only her psychiatrist, Dr Ferguson, but also her ex-husband, CC, and a second cousin, Helen Grimster.  I daresay others too.  We also know SC did not stick religiously to the teachings of the bible/Christianity in terms of discussing suicide/ideation, sexual relationships and conception of children outside of marriage.  We also know she placed great emphasis on her personal appearance.  In any event Anne Eaton's witness statement (I read all yesterday and will post the relevant links later) are very telling regarding the buckets of clothing some of which she states were blood stained.  It is absolute madness that these buckets were not removed by EP and passed to FSS for analysis.  It is simply not good enough for anyone to dismiss them out of hand as being connected to SC's period.  Based on personal experience and that of family and friends, females just do not leave menstrual stained clothing in soak in buckets in the kitchen.  AE states there were three buckets.  She identified two pairs of pants (panties to you and Misty's owner) and a pair of leggings.  We know June was very PROPER and it goes against the grain that she would  have all this hanging around with the twins running about, NB and JB turning up at WHF at the crack of dawn for work.  He apparently always visited WHF first thing in the morning to discuss the day's work with NB.  Would you want your soiled underwear on display in the kitchen?  The fact is we have absolutely no idea what was in the buckets and it strikes me threre's every likelihood it was SC's blood stained clothing from the tragedy.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Yes thank you Scipio for your instructions re the quote splitting.  I will endeavour to retrieve this and re-read it. You are so masterful  8**8:/:

The silencer didn't just have blood inside did it?  It supposedly had blood, paint and hair on the outside so if it was a carefully planned murder, as you state, why not run it under the tap and give it a good clean?

The evidence proves it was a planned murder.  I didn't say anything about it being perfectly planned. Criminals get caught because they are stupid and don't plan perfectly. The simple fact there was planning demolishes the claim that Seila suddenly went crazy and had a psychotic episode.

Yes there was paint on the suppressor.  Obviously Jeremy either didn't notice it or didn't think it had any significance. Likewise he either didn't notice the blood on it or didn't think it had any significance. It was such a small amount on the suppressor that they could not even get the blood type.  He obviously though that putting it in the closet and telling them he left the gun sitting out without the suppressor was sufficient for them not to search for a suppressor and examine it.  At first his plan worked. In any event he had no idea they would be able to obtain evidence from inside of it and to prove it was used in the murders or he would have cleaned it.

He also didn't bother to count out how many bullets were in the box of ammo he stuck in the kitchen.  He told police it was full or near full when he placed it there.  Obviously he didn't take a box that was full or near full it was only partly full but he didn't count how many were in it.  Thus a box that according to his own testimony had 45-50 bullets was left out and supposedly the killer got the bullets from it. 25 bullets were  used thus the box should have had between 20 and 25 bullets.  It had 30 though.  The suppressor was found with an ammunition carrier that had extra ammo in it. Quite obviously the killer used this ammunition carrier and the suppressor then put them away together in the closet. He took out the partial box of ammo and put it in th ekitchen to bolste rhis claim that Sheila went into a psychotic rage, found the gun and ammo sitting in front of her as she raged so she grabbed it and used it.

His planning quite obviously was not up to snuff though.     

Your suggestion that Sheila put the suppressor away in the closet out of habit before killing herself is absurd.  The only reason she would need to remove the suppressor is because  the only way to kill herself with it attached was perhaps if she used her toe to push the trigger. Even that might not work it depends on how long her legs were and I have not seen any info on the relevant stats of whether that would work or not. If she had removed the suppressor to kill herself she would have simply left it in the bedroom not to have walked down to hide it in the closet with the ammo carrier. No matter who committed the murders they had to have obtained ammo from elsewhere. It was not coincidence the ammo carrier was next to the suppressor.

If Sheila had committed the murders there is absolutely no reason for her to put the suppressor and ammo carrier in the closet.  There was no reason for the suppressor and scope to have been removed prior to the murders and it was routinely stored with them attached.   

Jeremy lied when he claimed the gun didn't fit in the closet with the accessories attached.  Jeremy also lied about his use of the gun prior to the murders.  He initially claimed he had not used the gun the week prior to the murders.  After his cousin testified he was the last to use it and he put it in the closet with the accessories attached then Jeremy changed his story.  He claimed he had used the gun repeatedly the week before the murders.  He claimed it sometimes had the suppressor and scope attached when he fetched it othertimes it didn't. He claimed that during that week his father sometimes removed the accessories but other times didn't.  Jeremy claimed he used it as found he never added or removed accessories.  This is a perfect gotcha moment like seen on television.  Someone questioning Jeremy about this could say so were you lying then or are you lying now?  Either he lied initially about not using it or was lying about using it.  This is only one of many lies and changing claims in which he ensnared himself because he didn't plan good enough in advance about what to do or say.

The bottom line is that we are left with half-assed planning from either Jeremy or Sheila.  Jeremy actually has a motive for the planning while Sheila didn't.  Jeremy hiding the suppressor had an actual motive.  Sheila would have no reason to go hide it or the ammo carrier.  Sheila would have no reason to unplug the kitchen phone, hide it and then place the bedroom phone in its place.  Jeremy did have a reason to do so.  There is a whole lot more evidence against Jeremy but this alone is enough to severely undermine his frame job against Sheila.     

I believe suicide is seen as a sin as far as Christianity goes but we know  SC discussed suicide with not only her psychiatrist, Dr Ferguson, but also her ex-husband, CC, and a second cousin, Helen Grimster.  I daresay others too.  We also know SC did not stick religiously to the teachings of the bible/Christianity in terms of discussing suicide/ideation, sexual relationships and conception of children outside of marriage.  We also know she placed great emphasis on her personal appearance.  In any event Anne Eaton's witness statement (I read all yesterday and will post the relevant links later) are very telling regarding the buckets of clothing some of which she states were blood stained.  It is absolute madness that these buckets were not removed by EP and passed to FSS for analysis.  It is simply not good enough for anyone to dismiss them out of hand as being connected to SC's period.  Based on personal experience and that of family and friends, females just do not leave menstrual stained clothing in soak in buckets in the kitchen.  AE states there were three buckets.  She identified two pairs of pants (panties to you and Misty's owner) and a pair of leggings.  We know June was very PROPER and it goes against the grain that she would  have all this hanging around with the twins running about, NB and JB turning up at WHF at the crack of dawn for work.  He apparently always visited WHF first thing in the morning to discuss the day's work with NB.  Would you want your soiled underwear on display in the kitchen?  The fact is we have absolutely no idea what was in the buckets and it strikes me threre's every likelihood it was SC's blood stained clothing from the tragedy.

You are the one claiming Sheila changed her clothing and took a bath for religious reasons.  I challenged it by pointing out murder and suicide are sins and a religious person would expect to go to hell for such acts and moreover a soul moves on not clothing or bodies so the notions she would wash her body so it could be nice and clean when it arrives in heaven and her clothing would be nide and clean when it arrives in heaven make no sense and indeed are absurd.

The only excuse you can provide for why Sheila would change her clothes and wash before committing suicide is for an absurd reason. You can't think up anything that makes sense let alone prove anything.

Eaton looked in the buckets and only found blood in 1 bucket. Had she seen blood in more than one bucket she would have said so.  Thus your speculation that others had blood inside are unwarranted and completely lacking in any support. 

No one knows where these buckets were originally at the time of the murders.  No one knows where they normally left buckets that had clothes soaking. By the time the clothes were found peopel had already been cleaing up the house to remove everything and things had been moved around quite a bit including many boxes of things being packed up and moved around.

If the contents of these buckets were in fact 3 pairs of panties and a pair of leggings how does this establish she changed her clothing after the murders?  Why would she need 3 pairs of panties and how would panties get blood form the victims on them?  Even leggings would be unlikely to have any blood fromt he victims. A shirt or gown would have most evidence that needed to be washed away especially gunshot residue.  Someone firing a rifle will get GSR on their hands and their shirt or gown if wearing a gown.

GSR doesn't just magicly vanish on its own. She can't have fired the gun 25 times without getting GSR on her upper clothing. Similarly spatter from the bludgeoning would be on her gown or shirt mainly. 

What evidence is there that she had a different gown or shirt on earlier that night?  None.

What reason would she have for changing her clothing before killing herself?  None.   

What reason to take a bath to wash away GSR and any blood form Nevill that might have gotten on her fromt he bludgeoning?  none

What evidence that she committed the bludgeoing by way of damage she suffered from the broken stock or the scuffle itself?  None. 

Jeremy wasn't tested for GSR or blood evidence nor was he inspected for wounds.  Sheila was and tested negative for everything. 

You keep making things up that demonstrate desperation. 

 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 06:56:20 PM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Jodie

Great points as always, scipio.

There are too many inconsistencies to argue anyone but Bamber carried out the murders. If Sheila was planning on killing herself all along in an enraged fit, there's simply no reason for her to carry out any of the thing that were clearly planned such as moving the phones/hiding the silencer etc.

In truth I think Jeremy was simply too arrogant to think the police wouldn't believe his blatant lies. I really don't see why he would put the silencer away with evidence all over it in a place it was extremely likely to be found! The best his supporters can come up with is either Sheila replaced the moderator in the cupboard after shooting herself the first time which is of course obscene and completely without evidence, or that the silencer was planted/contaminated by Eaton and others to incriminate JB. The fact of the matter is Jeremy either panicked when he realised Sheila would be unable to shoot herself and hid the silencer haphazardly or simply didn't foresee the significance it would have on the case or the severity of it's contamination.

Holly you didn't answer the questions in my other post (probably because you've answered them before in other threads?), maybe you could shed some light on these matters for us?

Offline scipio_usmc

Great points as always, scipio.

There are too many inconsistencies to argue anyone but Bamber carried out the murders. If Sheila was planning on killing herself all along in an enraged fit, there's simply no reason for her to carry out any of the thing that were clearly planned such as moving the phones/hiding the silencer etc.

In truth I think Jeremy was simply too arrogant to think the police wouldn't believe his blatant lies. I really don't see why he would put the silencer away with evidence all over it in a place it was extremely likely to be found! The best his supporters can come up with is either Sheila replaced the moderator in the cupboard after shooting herself the first time which is of course obscene and completely without evidence, or that the silencer was planted/contaminated by Eaton and others to incriminate JB. The fact of the matter is Jeremy either panicked when he realised Sheila would be unable to shoot herself and hid the silencer haphazardly or simply didn't foresee the significance it would have on the case or the severity of it's contamination.

Holly you didn't answer the questions in my other post (probably because you've answered them before in other threads?), maybe you could shed some light on these matters for us?

There are 2 different reasons to remove the suppressor.

1) Sheila couldn't shoot herself with it attached

2) In general a suppressor suggests silence is necessary and some planning occurred (but in the case where a suppressor is normally not removed ever it is actually suspicious to remove it, Jeremy either didn't know it was not usually removed or didn't think there would be anyone left living who could inform police of the fact)

It appears Jeremy thought that had he placed it beside her that would make police wonder why she needed to use a suppressor. She was the only other adult in the house so didn't have to worry about waking up adults in other rooms who could potentially stop her. He didn't want police to know it had been used at all not merely that it had been used to shoot Sheila.  He overthought things in some respects but underthought in others. 

It is not merely arrogance but ignorance as well. Criminals simply do not know everything and he probably didn't know about back spatter. Even today with all the CSI type shows out there the understanding of such is limited.  At that time it was much less so. He probably had no clue there was blood inside let alone it could be used to prove the suppressor was used to shoot Sheila. While he played up his expertise with guns others said they had not seen him shoot much if ever.  They said he didn't like hunting.  Rather ironic that he would not shoot animals but killed his family.  That irony is somewhat common though. Sadists like to kill animals and escalate to humans.  People who kill for money or some opportunistic often kill only for some set purpose they want to achieve not for the enjoyment of killing. He only seemed to have a basic understanding of firearms which would explain some of his mistakes.

We don't know whether Sheila was in the bedroom when he shot his parents or she netered/was ordered there later. If she was there and shot along with them from the initial magazine load when that explains for sure why he had not removed the suppressor before shooting her.  If he marched her in later he should have removed it. Why march her in?  To make it look like she killed them then shot herself immediately after.

Nevill was a sound sleeper but June wasn't.   Nevill slept on the side of the bed near the window, June towards the door. I can't understand how Nevill was able to wake up after being shot and to have the presence of mind to run out the door so fast. To run out the door he would need to get past the killer and June.  I can't help but wonder whether Jeremy marched Sheila in and woke his parents up, shot Nevill 2 times in the face while standing inside the room near the foot of the bed or window and while he was shooting June and Sheila this presented Nevill with the opportunity to run and he was hit in the arm and shoulder as he ran out.  Jeremy would not have been able to block the doorway if he was inside the room instead of near the door.

He could have wrestled the rifle from Sheila had she blocked the door. At any rate why would June flee to the door if someone with a gun had been there? This suggests that the killer was inside the room not near the door as the firing erupted. That is the only reason both parents would run towards the door.

Murders are easy to get away with when you do not know the victim.  When you know or worse are related to a victim that makes it much more challenging. It is hard to plan for every contingency and to do so you have to really think carefully including preparing what to say afterwards in detail.  Few people have the discipline to prepare with such care.       

 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli